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I have to help my son learn how to think


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My 8th grader is scaring the crud out of me. He is so smart but he just can't organize his thoughts without handholding. The plan if for him to go to high school next year so we've got to figure this out now.

 

An example. He has taken 2years of IEW writing and is in his second year of WWS. But, when told to "write about XYZ" he is clueless. Until I remind him to write a thesis statement, make an outline, etc. he just sits there "thinking"; literally, staring into space for hours or just wandering the house doing nothing.

 

Another example. He is taking a class right now that has lots of homework. They are very clear with the students what is expected (I sit in the class). The first week, he said he was done with his work really fast. After lots of questions from me, I got out my notebook and said "look, this is what your teacher said to do for homework". He literally had no idea what most of it was! He sat there taking notes but missed when they said "for next week.." This really concerns me; I'm not going to high school with him!

 

I'm pretty sure he has some executive function issues. I own Smart but Scattered but it isn't working. What else can I read?? What can I do? Helping this kid with his work is sucking up all of our time; it really isn't fair to the other kids.

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Has he had an evaluation through a neuropsychologist?  

 

There are so many different critical subsystems necessary for successfully dealing with the situations you describe.  If any one of those systems is not functioning properly it can make all of that exceedingly challenging.  An NP could dig in and determine where the disconnects are.  If he hasn't been evaluated and you can get an eval, I would suggest it.

 

That would also help if he is in ps next year since they might be able to provide him with accommodations and remediation where needed.  (Be aware, though, that many times the ps people are really clueless and may not be very helpful at all.)  You would need to set up a meeting, see about getting an IEP in place and hope they know what they are doing.  Better than nothing, though, if your child does have some areas he needs this kind of help in.

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I don't think I'd panic at this stage. The writing process is very challenging, and it takes years and years to feel competent with writing. I gained a lot of confidence after writing my Master's thesis, and I was 26, but it took literally one full year of writing that one document to get to that point. It thrills me when I see younger people able to put clear and concise thoughts on paper. 

 

As far as being really clear on homework assignments, some of the uncertainty could be with the class instructor not being completely clear and/or the timing of giving details. If people are still finishing up writing notes, then switching their brains to thinking about specific assignments can be difficult. Homework clearly written on a blackboard for everyone to see makes it very easy for the students to copy down. Giving them time to copy down homework is important, too. In my dc's academic classes, the homework assignments are already typed out in their materials given ahead of time. It works out really well. There is definitely a value in learning to make clear notes about homework assignments, but it's a skill that needs to be learned, IME. It's not something that everyone does without some practice.

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For the record, I know my son does not have eval issues.  He is just a duphus sometimes.  The other day we were going out and it was pouring.  I asked Ds to go get his shoes on and he appears with wool socks and sandals.  I had to take out all the different pairs of shoes (from sandals and crocs to hiking and snow shoes).  We lined them all up.  I had to pick up each shoe and say "What is the reason for this one?"  He would be able to answer "Rain" or "Summer" or "Snow" but somehow did not translate that into actively putting on the correct clothing for the weather. When asked what was going on Ds was totally calm and said, "Well you never told me like that before."  Seriously! :banghead:   Sometimes our kids are just space cadets.

 

For academic subjects we have streamlined everything to have a fairly specific process.  Every piece of writing goes through the process of topic refining (I made a worksheet), outline (another worksheet we made), quick sentences, bulking sentences, adding in evidence.  Every single assignment for writing.  There is no way for him not to know the process.  It is used like memory work.  I would sit next to him to do the process all the way through for quite a bit.  Then he took on the topic refining by himself, next doing the topic refining and the outline, then all the way through to the quick sentences.  Now we are at the point where most of the bulking up he can do, most of the evidence he can do, but I still need to help with the revising.

 

Could you go through and streamline the processes?  Math is ALWAYS approached this way.  Lit Discussions ALWAYS look like this.  Writing ALWAYS has this process.  The sort of situation where it is done so much that he doesn't even need to think about "what should I do." 

 

If that really does not seem to work, I'd be concerned.  One degree of totally in the clouds can be just hormones, but at the point it is hindering his ability to function you might need check it out.

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I would ask him questions and pay close attention to his answers.   For example, when he is assigned a paper to write, ask him if he has a plan for completing the assignment (I mean step by step:  research, notes, thesis, outline, rough draft, final copy.)  I would also ask him if has a rough estimate of the amt of time required for each step.   If he can answer those questions and follow through with his plan, I would think it is not a serious issue as much as needing simple encouragement to formulate a plan.  If simple prompting leads to successful outcomes, I would spend the yr helping him make it to that point independently.

 

If, however, it takes more than simple questions guiding his taking over independently, yes, in 8th grade I would be concerned.

 

The 2nd example, again, it depends.   Was he focused or did he zone out?   Online courses can be very difficult for some people, not just kids.  (eta: oops, I just realized I assumed online.   If this was an in-person class, yes, I would be concerned.)  If he zoned out, he might have missed those key points.   If he was really paying attention and didn't make the connection, then I would be concerned.  Is there a syllabus or online resource which identifies what is due when?   Learning to navigate a syllabus, Blackboard or some other online teacher/student source of communicating, etc is pretty important.

 

FWIW, I have never had a child reach 8th grade that could not do those things independently, HOWEVER, and this is a big however, I don't hold their hands guiding them through those sorts of things starting when they are quite young.   If a student is not used to not being directed, it might be that they need specific training in taking over self-guidance.

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Well a really good reason to get the evals *if* you suspect problems would be so you can get the IEP or 504 in place this year and ready to go when he starts high school next fall.  It would really suck to proceed forward like he's just bad and a doofus (which I grant, some kids are) and realize it *wasn't* that.  It takes many months to get an IEP in place, and since you don't know what you're dealing with you don't know what he needs.  Something and run of the mill as ADHD will *still* get accommodations through the school.  By getting that lined up now, it gives you time to use them THIS year in his co-op class or whatever you're doing and figure out what methods work well for him, get him used to using them (HUGE), etc.

 

I'm rereading your post.  Yeah, I'd get him tested.  We did our evals about the same age (12) and it was WATERSHED, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE.  Did I mention how big a change it was for us?  It allowed us to make RADICAL changes, gave us the right words, gave us the reasons.

 

Btw, there's actually a therapy effective for that.  Neurofeedback is *as effective* as meds and permanent.  The research is showing as little as 20 sessions will be effective for 30% of kids with ADHD.  The rest I think are more in that 30-40 session range.  So if you got evals and started this year, you'd be done by the end of the year and have his new skills in place for high school.  

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Haha!! So, I either need a neuropsychologist to sort him out OR not worry about it.

 

Shall I flip a coin??

Why flip a coin?  You already know you're worried about it and that it's not normal.

 

Stop doubting your Mama Gut. You already know you're frustrated and concerned, so it's time to DO something about it.  You said you want to help him learn to think.  That's cognitive therapies.  To do those and target them, you need a proper psych eval so you know what you're dealing with.  You already KNOW you need this.  You're already saying it.   :)

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Haha!! So, I either need a neuropsychologist to sort him out OR not worry about it.

 

Shall I flip a coin??

 

If you're looking for a professional evaluation, then you won't get it here. You will get exactly what you received, total guesses based on limited information you've given. What were you expecting?

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How about an elective this year called Study Skills? Maybe you could carve out some time in the evening where both of you could sit down with your notebooks and compare notes? You have an opportunity here since you can sit in on the class to take notes and show him where he may be missing information.

 

As far as the writing goes, would it help to have a laminated poster or even a page in the front of his notebook that would detain the format he should follow when preparing the paper? I believe that there are some books available on teaching outlining referenced in TWTM. I'm considering this for my guys next year depending on how they do with their composition this year. 

I don't know if an evening meeting would be productive, but it could set the habit for him of making sure that he knows how to prepare for the next day: even making sure he develops a list of what he needs to have done, the order he should do it in, making sure he keeps a planner, and a calender that is in sync with yours as to when assignments are due, when things need to be completed, etc. Might be a way to encourage feedback as well on what is helping and what might work better when it comes to note taking, keeping up with assignments, etc.

 

I'm just wondering if something like this would be helpful, as it would be outside of normal school hours, so not in the way of normal schooling with your younger children.

 

 

ETA: I have NOT been there or done this. This is an idea I'm considering adding to the schedule for my boys in late sixth or early seventh grade. They are just now learning to do work independently, not schedule it yet!

 

 

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If you're looking for a professional evaluation, then you won't get it here. You will get exactly what you received, total guesses based on limited information you've given. What were you expecting?

Well, duh. I was just amused by how polar opposite the first two posts were.

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Well a really good reason to get the evals *if* you suspect problems would be so you can get the IEP or 504 in place this year and ready to go when he starts high school next fall. It would really suck to proceed forward like he's just bad and a doofus (which I grant, some kids are) and realize it *wasn't* that. It takes many months to get an IEP in place, and since you don't know what you're dealing with you don't know what he needs. Something and run of the mill as ADHD will *still* get accommodations through the school. By getting that lined up now, it gives you time to use them THIS year in his co-op class or whatever you're doing and figure out what methods work well for him, get him used to using them (HUGE), etc.

 

I'm rereading your post. Yeah, I'd get him tested. We did our evals about the same age (12) and it was WATERSHED, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE. Did I mention how big a change it was for us? It allowed us to make RADICAL changes, gave us the right words, gave us the reasons.

 

Btw, there's actually a therapy effective for that. Neurofeedback is *as effective* as meds and permanent. The research is showing as little as 20 sessions will be effective for 30% of kids with ADHD. The rest I think are more in that 30-40 session range. So if you got evals and started this year, you'd be done by the end of the year and have his new skills in place for high school.

So, where do I even start?? Pediatrician??

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In your shoes, I would ask the school district what documentation they need for a 504.  This is what you would get if your son has ADHD.   Then I would seek out an evaluation from that professional.  This will vary by school district.  Some want an MD, some want a psychologist, etc.  This is if you suspect or "know" that he has ADHD.

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So, where do I even start?? Pediatrician??

Texasmama already got you started.  It's really that combo of budget, your insurance, what your local ps is like, what you think is going on, and deciding how to proceed.  If you think spectrum, at least around here you have to go private.  If you think more like adhd, dyslexia, etc., the ps can do that.  Some ps are AWESOME to work with and some aren't.  Pricepoint is right, but what you get in the process just varies.

 

Technically your ped can diagnose adhd, but that's not going to change how you teach or give you any real information.  I HIGHLY recommend SOME kind of psych evals (ps, private, whatever) so you can have better info to teach with.  We just got our results today for ds, and it was worth it.

 

If you want your insurance to cover it, yes you have to jump through their hoops with preapproval, referrals, whatever they require.  For many people that will mean a trip to the ped for a referral.  

 

Texasmama is onto it correctly, that if you're wanting this to create the paperwork trail for him to have for school next year, you want to include them in the process.  They can blend or you may be happy with just them.  Your library will have the NOLO book on IEPs.  She's probably right that adhd alone wouldn't get you an IEP but instead a 504.  I think you though the way you file, the process, etc. is pretty similar though, right?  There's just the jargon like MFE (multi-factored eval), figuring out who to talk to, etc.  It takes a while, which is why you start now and will hopefully have it done by spring.  That way in the fall he'll be ready to go and have no lag.  

 

You're going to learn a TON through the eval process.  You'll be glad you did it.  :)

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