What is the significance of a W on a college transcript?

[Gwen in VA]

Dd is considering / planning on dropping a class. At this late date, she would get a W on her transcript.

 

Since she is heading into the arts, she was taking the class so she could have a minor in a more academic discipline.  The class has been a disaster on many levels. She is far from failing, but she doesn't like her grade and the class is causing her GREAT stress.

 

I guess everyone has a class like this somewhere along the line.... I can still remember my disaster class -- I changed majors because of that prof!

 

I cannot imagine that any master's program in the arts will care that she has a W in a challenging 200-level post-calc-2 math class. She will have mostly A's otherwise, and she is heading into the ARTS, not engineering.

 

Is there a negative to having a W on the transcript in a subject that is completely totally 100% unrelated to your major? I'd appreciate hearing about any downsides!

 

 

 

 

[kiana]

A W here and there is not a real problem. Many W's is a problem.

[Bootsie]

I have served on a number of graduate school admission committees, scholarship committees, etc.  A "W", or even several,, would not be a problem.  For one thing, different schools have different rules for when a "w" is assigned.  For some schools it means that two weeks into a semester a student gets an internship and has to drop a class so that they can schedule the internship.  For other schools, it can mean that during the last week of classes the student was failing and dropped the course.  I also worked at a private university that had advisors who encouraged students to sign up for a 21 hours a semester (because they paid the same tuition as if they were taking 15 hours) and then drop the ones that they weren't happy with at midterm.

 

What would be a concern:

 

1)  A student who has a high number of W's--especially if this drops them down to completing only 9 hours per semester.  Can they follow through?

 

2)  A student who drops a course a couple of times at a university and then goes to a CC or other source to complete the requirement.  Could they really not do the work of the course and were just shopping around for a place to get a passing grade.

 

In Texas, a limit has been placed on the number of withdrawals a student can make over their college career because so many students were completing only about 1/2 of their attempted hours because of routinely dropping courses as soon as the course required some work.  Now student must be more judicious about "spending" their drop allotments.

[kiana]

jdahlquist has summed it up very nicely. 

[G5052]

Yes, I agree.  No problem as long as it is not a habit.  I had probably four on my undergraduate transcript, and had no problems getting hired by a very selective employer and then admitted to an "upper-middle" graduate school that was 100% paid for by my employer.  They were not all in one semester, and not all in one subject.  Then I had two on my graduate transcript.  One when I a work-related commitment that prevented me from attending class any longer, and one when I got mono and had to cut my schedule back to recover.  In both cases I took the same class later and got "A" grades.  

 

I don't remember ever being asked about any of them.

[katilac]

I agree that a W in this class will not be a big deal. I would possibly try to have a discussion with her about what is causing the stress in this class - is it elemental to the class itself, or is she mainly stressed because she is used to getting almost all A's?

 

Also, will dropping this course slow down or stop her planned minor? 

 

You said she is 'far from failing,' so that led me to think that she is probably in the solid C range. There is nothing wrong with withdrawing from the class, but there is also nothing wrong with getting a C in a challenging math course! 

 

If the time spent on the class could be better applied to work in her major, and the class doesn't directly impact her long-term goals, then dropping is probably a good decision. If she's mostly freaking out over possibly getting a C, I think that staying with it would be a better decision on a personal level.  

[Gwen in VA]

Thank you for your words of advice.

 

She talked with the prof and he does NOT scale grades at all. Given that the average on the last test was a 74%, this could be interesting -- it is a highly competitive college and many of the students will attend grad school, etc. He seems to be a believer that a C is an average grade..... (He is not from the U.S.)

 

The college I attended was a top school that in the 80's was very worried about its suicide rate, so it allowed students to drop classes until Thanksgiving (and equivalently late in the spring) with no record on the transcript. I therefore have NO experience with W's, so I really appreciate your comments.

 

I had no idea W's were so common!

 

Thanks!

 

 

[regentrude]

She talked with the prof and he does NOT scale grades at all. Given that the average on the last test was a 74%, this could be interesting -- it is a highly competitive college and many of the students will attend grad school, etc. He seems to be a believer that a C is an average grade..... (He is not from the U.S.)

 

:confused:

A C average on a math (or physics) test is pretty normal. In our department, we aim at a low C average for exams in introductory courses and have been doing so for 20 years. What does that have to do with the prof not being from the US?

[Erin]

C IS an average grade, but in the US so many people have become conditioned to grade inflation that they think C's are bad.  

[Hunter's Moon]

Cs are bad.  At son's state U, business majors can't enroll in their jr level courses with a C average. They need close to a B+.

 

I don't think that necessarily translates to a C being bad. They just want above average students in their program. 

[Bootsie]

Cs are bad.  At son's state U, business majors can't enroll in their jr level courses with a C average. They need close to a B+.

This is one of the problems with grade inflation.  At my university we are getting more and more pressure not to gives Ds and Fs and to minimize the number of withdrawals.  So, if faculty bow to the pressure, a "C" becomes the new "F."  At the same time, the university has said that a D- is "passing" and has made it harder and harder to put GPA pre-reqs on programs and classes.  If someone makes a D- in Accounting 1 they really do not have the background to go on to Accounting 2...  

 

I had a student come by and talk to me about applying for a summer international immersion experience. It would be a wonderful opportunity that would allow him to travel at almost no cost; he did not want to put in his application until he knew exactly how he would be graded.  He was concerned that an A- would ruin his 4.0 GPA!  He was willing to give up a wonderful learning opportunity because it would be difficult to drop the course if it looked like he would receive an A-  (which would seldom occur in that setting anyway.)

[Gwen in VA]

 

C IS an average grade

 

Where?

 

This chart http://www.gradeinflation.com/ indicates that the average college GPA is between 3.0 and 3.3 currently. A 3.0 is hardly a C!

 

According to official statistics, at my daughter' college the undergraduate cumulative grade point averages (GPA) as of fall 2012 is 3.27. That also is a far cry from a C average!

 

The kicker is that dd's college with the B+ average grade is a "public Ivy" known for tough grading standards!

 

 

 

[Erin]

You're proving my point about how pervasive grade inflation actually is...

[Tokyomarie]

Just to complicate matters, there is more than one philosophy of the purpose of grades and what an A means. Traditionally, grading is used as a way of sorting students into "the best and brightest" and so on down to the "worst and most incompetent." In this model, it may have been decided that the top however many percent of a class are the ones who may be admitted to the next class or the next step. As regentrude seems to indicate, in this system, exams are designed to made sure that the middle percentiles of the class only get a C. It's all about the Bell Curve for a given class, not necessarily about how much a student knows about a subject.

 

Another philosophy of grading is assessment that marks a student against certain benchmarks or standards. It is a mastery oriented approach. Certain benchmarks are established for a given course. If the student can demonstrate mastery of a certain body of material to the 90% or 93% level (whatever percentage is established for the A), then that student receives an A.

 

In the first approach only a certain percentage of students will receive an A. The exam is set to, hopefully, create that bell curve. In the second approach, all students have the possibility of receiving an A. If 100% of students meet the benchmarks, then 100% of the class receives an A. In the first approach that's not going to happen. In reality, even under the second system, for whatever reason, some students aren't going to demonstrate mastery at the A level. They will get a lower grade. 

 

Many graduate programs require students to maintain at least a B average to continue. Many require students who get a C to retake the class. I'm assuming in this scenario, that grading reflects a mastery approach.  

[Peach]

One thing to check though...here, we are required to pass a certain % of courses taken. If we fall below that, they can deny financial aid until you get the % to the acceptable range. A W doesn't affect GPA here, but it does affect the pass % number. If you've had  a lot of courses, there is little impact but if you've only had a few it can be an issue.  I don't know how common this is but it's worth checking beforehand

[regentrude]

Just to complicate matters, there is more than one philosophy of the purpose of grades and what an A means. Traditionally, grading is used as a way of sorting students into "the best and brightest" and so on down to the "worst and most incompetent." In this model, it may have been decided that the top however many percent of a class are the ones who may be admitted to the next class or the next step. As regentrude seems to indicate, in this system, exams are designed to made sure that the middle percentiles of the class only get a C. It's all about the Bell Curve for a given class, not necessarily about how much a student knows about a subject.

 

Another philosophy of grading is assessment that marks a student against certain benchmarks or standards. It is a mastery oriented approach. Certain benchmarks are established for a given course. If the student can demonstrate mastery of a certain body of material to the 90% or 93% level (whatever percentage is established for the A), then that student receives an A.

 

In the first approach only a certain percentage of students will receive an A. The exam is set to, hopefully, create that bell curve. In the second approach, all students have the possibility of receiving an A. If 100% of students meet the benchmarks, then 100% of the class receives an A. In the first approach that's not going to happen. In reality, even under the second system, for whatever reason, some students aren't going to demonstrate mastery at the A level. They will get a lower grade. 

 

The bolded is not correct. Let me explain:

EVERY exam is designed at a certain level of difficulty, whether done so with careful intent, or by accident. EVERY instructor makes a choice which material he considers necessary to be mastered, and which degree of mastery deserves which grade.

When we design exams, we test the material we consider necessary, and ANY student who masters this material will receive a grade of A. Period. So, every single student could earn a grade of A in our course, since we do not "curve", but use a fixed grading scale, with clearly spelled out expectations.

However, not all students are equally capable and work equally hard. Some students are outstanding, some underperform. An exam in a general course should not be of such difficulty and test so specialized knowledge that only the outstanding students with a special interest in the subject have a chance of success; it also should not be so easy that students can receive a high  grade without showing that they mastered the material at the level we deem necessary for the target audience. So, the exam has to be designed "just right".

Which, if you average over 400 students, translates into a C average - BUT that is without any artificial limitation on the number of As.  If 100% of the students were meeting the benchmark,( which, in our case, means they worked a set of physics problems similar to homework and lecture examples correctly, following the procedure they have been taught), 100% of students would receive a grade of A. It just never happens.

Decade long experience with thousands of students has taught us that an exam with the "right" bench marks (i.e. testing mastery at the necessary level) generally leads to a C average. An exam that leads to a low D average turns out to have been too difficult or graded too harshly; an exam that leads to a B average was not testing the necessary level of mastery and too easy. A careful analysis of the test usually reveals this. It has nothing to do with limiting or sorting; it simply has to do with the fact that in large numbers of students some achieve mastery and others don't. The larger the student numbers, the smaller the probability for having a class that is just a "fluke".

 

ETA: And, of course, exam grades have to be seen in the larger context of the course structure. If a course measures mastery solely by means of infrequent exams, exams will usually be easier than in a course that contains a component of "easy" points for simply turning in homework assignments or attendance that buffer the grades for everybody. In some courses, those extra points mean that final grades are a on average a letter grade above the exam average.

[Bootsie]

I teach an introductory finance course that is required of all business majors.  This is how I would tell them their grade relates to "mastery" of the material:

 

D--student has knowledge of only the very basic material in the course--e.g. student has memorized definitions but does not have an understanding of the terminology.  This student does not have a solid foundation for further coursework in the area.

C--student has the basic knowledge that would be required for a business person to have about finance.  The individual can do basic calculations on known problems.  This student would probably need to work harder than average to take an advanced finance course--especially if they are at the lower end of the "C" range.

B--student can work more complex finance problems.  Student understands some of the intricacies involved in the material.  Student has a solid foundation for further study.

A--student can apply the concepts to new and different situations.  Student can integrate material. Student understands the assumptions being made and the implications of those assumptions.  Student is able to ask probing questions about the material.  Student should excel in further student in the area.

[Bootsie]

I see many students today who have come through a system of "We will keep giving you the test and letting you try again, changing the test if necessary, so that you can 'master' the material."  They are used to receiving an "A."  However, they and their parents are interpreting the "A" as "Johnny is a good student and excels in math--he is a straight A student."   

[kiana]

My criteria are similar to jdahlquist.

 

A = You have really learned the material. You can solve novel problems relating to applications of the concepts we have learned in class. You can integrate multiple ideas from different parts of the course to solve a single problem.

B = You have done a pretty ok job. You can solve problems from a single section but if they ask you to integrate too many concepts you start to struggle. Word problems are a bit challenging and the more complex ones may throw you for a loop. 

C = You can solve basic, routine problems that are similar to the example problems. 

D = You have memorized a few definitions and can possibly solve a few extremely simple problems, but you lack the foundational knowledge required to continue in the sequence. See you next semester!

[Joules]

Where?

 

This chart http://www.gradeinflation.com/ indicates that the average college GPA is between 3.0 and 3.3 currently. A 3.0 is hardly a C!

 

According to official statistics, at my daughter' college the undergraduate cumulative grade point averages (GPA) as of fall 2012 is 3.27. That also is a far cry from a C average!

 

The kicker is that dd's college with the B+ average grade is a "public Ivy" known for tough grading standards!

I can see an average grade being a C in an intro class, but in higher level classes, I would think there would begin to be a selection effect. Students who don't have aptitude for a subject are going to change their major or drop out. By senior year I would expect a B+ average in major classes.

 

Maybe it's because I went to and taught at a school with a higher transfer rate, but I wouldn't see A or B averages in upper level classes as grade inflation. I'd see it as self-selection. I wouldn't expect Mensa members to have an average IQ of 100, either.

[Joules]

Just to complicate matters, there is more than one philosophy of the purpose of grades and what an A means. Traditionally, grading is used as a way of sorting students into "the best and brightest" and so on down to the "worst and most incompetent." In this model, it may have been decided that the top however many percent of a class are the ones who may be admitted to the next class or the next step. As regentrude seems to indicate, in this system, exams are designed to made sure that the middle percentiles of the class only get a C. It's all about the Bell Curve for a given class, not necessarily about how much a student knows about a subject.

.

I was usually a top student, but it is tough to be the recipient of a grading system like that. You work your rear off for an 86% average in a tough class and end up with a C. I much prefered the mastery method of grading!