Jump to content

Menu

How did/do you teach your dc the discipline?


Recommended Posts

I am about to pull my hair out and my head is seconds from exploding.  I don't know what I am doing wrong, but I can't get my oldest to do certain things on a regular basis.

 

He doesn't pick up after himself.  So, if he does a painting or a craft project - everything is left behind unless I ask him to do it right after he is finished or remind him 10 times.

 

He doesn't have chores but he is suppose to bring his plates after dinner to the sink.  Doesn't do it unless he is reminded.

 

Same with toys.  Same with clothes.

 

And so forth....

 

How did you teach your kids to do things that need to be done without you having to stand over them?

 

I can't keep up with picking up after everyone and I hate that our house looks like a bomb went off most of the time.

 

Suggestions?  Opinions?

 

Thank you!!

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your oldest is 6? That sounds pretty normal. These are skills that need to be developed and the best way to do it is with repetition and consistency. I know adults who cannot remember to pick up after themselves so I think it's a lot to expect of a young child to be able to do without reminders. So yes we do go over the expectations before we begin a project and then they are not allowed to run off and play until it is cleaned. So with the dinner dishes, I would call him right back and stand there until it's done. Lather, rinse and repeat for everything that matters to you. It's tedious but necessary. My just turned 8 year old needs to be reminded multiple times a day to do things we have been doing consistently since he was 2. There is improvement but I cannot expect 100% without me constantly reminding them and in my almost 5 year old's case, following after her and standing there until she does it. Often pulling someone from play to come back and complete what you were asked to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, a six year old just needs to be gently and consistently reminded. Every time. Maybe for several years :) 

 

Remember this child does not have an adult brain or adult experience. Habits can be established, but for now the remembering part is likely to remain your responsibility for quite some time.

 

Oh, there are kids who are exceptions, kids who do remember just about everything they are told and try to follow every direction and rule. In my household however the child who is most like that has also struggled with some severe anxiety and OCD issues--her brain kind of goes into overdrive trying to remember everything and do everything perfectly. Given the choice, I would rather my children forget to do things than obsess about always getting everything right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mine seemed to be able to do a lot of that without my standing over them around 8-10 years old, and they did like chore charts and checking off what they had done. Then, they became teens and they've regressed to not knowing how to pick up after themselves unless I nag. :glare:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

a six year old, lol? He is completely typical for a six year old.  He should have it figured out in about 20 years.

 

Were you able to pick up after yourself, without being told, when you were 6? 12? I know I wasn't.

 

Teaching him that stuff is called life, it is parenting. And having your house a mess because of kids is just life.

 

Set up routines, like after lunch let's pick up the toys. Make sure it is easy for him to put things away and he can reach things.  Kindly ask him to help you pick up his stuff, at that age you can make it a game. Pretend to have a remote control and tell him when you click it you are making him a robot. Then say "robot bend over and pick up the blue truck' and then 'robot stand up' and then 'robot walk to toy box' and then 'robot put truck in toy box' etc etc. 

 

He's still a very little boy. I know he seems big compared to your other children, but he is very young. And this is part of parenting. Getting upset about it is sort of a waste of time because this has to be a long game. Make it easy for him to comply, make it easy for him to succeed and it will be easier for you in the long run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My house looks like a bomb went off most of the time, too.   :001_smile:   My oldest, ds7, is just now starting to "remember" routines, and this is after tens of thousands of "lessons" from me over the years, so I understand the frustration.   

 

One thing that has helped in our house is the use of something (besides my screaming voice) to trigger ds into action.  So his morning routine was posted in our bathroom in a series of pictures.  And his chores (including simple tasks like teeth brushing, or tidying up) are picture tags on a chart that he pulls off when the job is done.  I may still need to tell him to check his chart, but then the chart guides him from there.   In your case, perhaps you could create a small "after dinner" flip-chart like the ones here and here, showing the two or three things he needs to complete when the meal is done? He can even keep it right at the table with him, if it helps.  The same might work for establishing other routines tooĂ¢â‚¬Â¦ though I'd limit how many tasks you tackle at a time.  Let him work on mastering just a few before adding more responsibilities.

 

Simple practice sessions have also helped us.  Ten minutes at the start of summer on "how to shut the back door" (including hands-on practice for each kiddo) eliminated a lot of yelling on my part too.  Twenty minutes on "how to walk through the kitchen without swatting at mommy's apron and making it fall to the floor" eliminated that problem for me too.

 

6 is young still--- don't worry! There's hope for your little guy yet! :D  

 

 

(edited for typos and to include additional links)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would something like chore chart help at all?

 

I have no point of reference when it comes to kids as I've never been around children until I had my own.

 

I just can't imagine after YEARS of me telling him do this do that - it is still have not registered at all!!!!

 

Do you have friends with kids this age? It sounds like you need to spend some time watching other moms and how they deal with it. And see their houses, lol. Because having kids means having a mess. I don't mean like hording levels of filth, but there is stuff around. There just is. And homeschooling seems to mean more than average. At 6 your kid would be in public school all day. He would be doing his painting at school. All my friends with kids in school have MUCH cleaner houses than I do because my house gets used a whole lot more. Plus we have all the homeschooing material, and projects etc etc.

 

But you need to spend more time around kids his age. It will teach you a whole lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would something like chore chart help at all?

 

I have no point of reference when it comes to kids as I've never been around children until I had my own.

 

I just can't imagine after YEARS of me telling him do this do that - it is still have not registered at all!!!!

 

Accountable kids http://www.accountablekids.com/ works pretty well for mine, but with those younger than about age 8 I still have to remind them. With a six year old it could be a simple "have you finished your morning cards yet?" and the child goes and looks at their cards to see what is left to do. Get dressed, brush teeth, make bed, etc. are all on there. For my bigger kids just having a card for "morning routine" is sufficient, they don't need reminders of every step. Well, they don't always need reminders anyway :)

 

You could easily make a program like this yourself. Basically you need a set of cards for morning, afternoon, and evening, though you could divide things differently (i.e., a set for "school"). If the child completes all their "morning" tasks, they get a ticket which can be used for some kind of reward or privilege--you decide how to set that up. If they don't complete the tasks within the designated time period they don't get the ticket. Physical cards work better for my young kids than a check list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have three babies, six and under. How have you not been hyperventilating for the last 6 years? Hasn't it been like this for quite a while?

 

I only have two kids and they are 5 years apart. All my friends with three kids are bomb proof. Nothing fazes them. Oh, a bottle of glitter on the floor, no biggie. You fed the dog a jar of peanut butter? Again? Alright, put him in the garage with some newspapers.

 

Just keep saying to yourself "There is nothing wrong because this is the new normal. There is nothing wrong because this is the new normal" Cultivate patience and firmness with realistic expectations and soon all your friends will seeing you as oasis of calm! :001_smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly? My goal is for them to have these skills before they move out of the house. My older two (10 & 12) sometimes remember things like brushing their teeth and putting their clothes in the laundry basket, but cleaning up after a craft project or loading their dishes into the dishwasher still doesn't get done unless I remind them.

 

For my own sanity I have set up routines. The biggest one prevents clutter and messes getting out of hand: they have to tidy the main areas of the house (living room, dining room, and main hallway) before lunch and dinner every single day. We started it when my oldest was around five or six, so it has been done long enough that it is a routine - I still remind them, but they are expecting it. We also have a group chore time each day (whenever we have some free time) and I give all the kids a chore and we all work together for fifteen minutes or so to get things clean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do think chore charts and other visual reminders can help kids, though there's no substitute for just being on them about it verbally and standing right there. And 6 yos can get better at this (as some people said, a few are naturals for lucky parents). I think if it's important to you, isolate each thing you want - clearing your plate after dinner, picking up the Legos at the end of the day, picking up the cars at the end of the day, putting clothes in the hamper, etc. Think of it as a ton of tiny tasks, because to a 6 yo, it is. It's not just "picking up" - every single thing is different. And then work on one with the standing over and reminding and being super consistent. And in a few months, maybe it'll be down pat and you move on to focus on the next thing and feel proud that, hey, my 6/7 yo may not always put away his toys or clear his plate or throw away his tissues, but now he always puts his clothes in the hamper! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Constant instruction, corrections, punishment if necessary (not very often, though). Miss Manners says it takes 18 years of constant nagging to rear a well-mannered adult. :-)

 

Things like taking a plate to the sink would be instant reminders; IOW, I wouldn't leave the kitchen until I had seen dc put his plate in the sink. In fact, I would probably be doing mine at the same time, so I'd probably say something ("Here, Orkie, give me your plate") and give him a hug when he finished. If at another time he had eaten on his own and not cleared his place, and I came in and saw it, I'd go get his little fanny from wherever he was and march him back to the kitchen. I'm not very tolerant of people messing up my kitchen. :-)

 

When he finishes an art project, of course you should instruct him to clean up right away. Surely you're in his close proximity, yes? Then require him to clean up. Don't expect him to automatically do it on his own, not unless you have been faithfully, consistently, instructing him to do so, and even then, he's just a little guy, and he will need continual instruction and reminders. No nagging, though, or telling him 10 times.

 

I don't think we have to become accustomed to living in squalor :-) but we do have to expect to be On Top of Things. It's generally the fact that we are not consistent in our instruction and corrections and follow-through, and often because we're just tired of the whole thing, lol. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have three babies, six and under. How have you not been hyperventilating for the last 6 years? Hasn't it been like this for quite a while?

 

I only have two kids and they are 5 years apart. All my friends with three kids are bomb proof. Nothing fazes them. Oh, a bottle of glitter on the floor, no biggie. You fed the dog a jar of peanut butter? Again? Alright, put him in the garage with some newspapers.

 

Just keep saying to yourself "There is nothing wrong because this is the new normal. There is nothing wrong because this is the new normal" Cultivate patience and firmness with realistic expectations and soon all your friends will seeing you as oasis of calm! :001_smile:

 

You know - mess created during activities doesn't bother me.  Constant noise level of about 100 doesn't bother me.   A new jar of PB splashed all over the floor doesn't bother me.  A pound of flour mixed with sugar and eggs all over the stove doesn't bother me.  Legos in my shower don't bother me.

 

I THOUGHT I was bomb proof.

 

But I am so terrified about raising lazy-can't-take-care-of themselves children who are living in my basement at 35 that I completely freak out over what I perceive as lack of discipline.  How crazy is that??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thing that has helped me (type A neat freak that I am):  Pack away toys that are especially problematic, just for a while.  All my toddlers have gone through a Dump and Destroy phase of play-style, and it drives.me.batty. My 2.5 year-old's idea of fun is to spread every play-kitchen toy out on the family floor. Then move on to something else.  She's too little to successfully pick it all back up by herself (though she's great at smaller chores), and I hate to make the olders responsible for it all the time, so somewhere around my third-trimester last spring I just packed all but a few of the 8,763 pieces of bleepity-bleep kitchen stuff away.

 

And no one minded too much.  (The olders just started using imaginary ketchup and imaginary pasta.)

 

And I now had enough reserve patience to tolerate the smaller messes with a smile.

 

And enough energy to teach my olders about routines and responsibilities instead of scream at them.

 

Happy medium for us all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But I am so terrified about raising lazy-can't-take-care-of themselves children who are living in my basement at 35 that I completely freak out over what I perceive as lack of discipline.  How crazy is that??

 

Not crazy. Seems like you're pretty normal too. ;)

 

But lazy is totally different from lacking the executive functioning to carry out clean up tasks. You sound like you're super patient. That's really all it takes. If you don't want them to be lazy, don't let them be. But also don't expect that they can remember and intuitively know how to organize themselves to do the clean ups.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can not even put into words how helpful this thread has been.

 

I felt so desperate this morning.  I yelled VERY loudly at my 6 yr old (thank G-d we don't have neighbors near by or CPS would have been called).

 

They were doing painting last night.  My 4 yr old was done earlier and put his stuff away.  My 6 yr old was still finishing up when I was already taking two younger ones upstairs for bed.  After that, I got busy and didn't see the mess until this morning and I just LOST IT!

 

OK, I am going to go breath for awhile and regroup and come up with a system and will have to work on major attitude and expectations adjustment on my part.

 

Thank you again for being so helpful!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Breathe :)

My 13 year old daughter is FINALLY getting to the point where she brushes and puts things away in the main living area after she uses them. Still, though, I have to constantly remind her to clean her room.

You know what, though? I was that way well into my 20's, until I married and moved out. Somehow I manage to run a pretty tidy home of my own :) For whatever reason, it's just easier when you have your own home. No clue why.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(((hugs))) parenting is hard.

 

In general, when you find your children behaving in immature and childlike ways, it might help to pause a moment and remind yourself that these are primarily not discipline issues but developmental issues. The parts of our brain that control executive function and impulse--planning, organizing, prioritizing, staying on task, managing our time and environment, thinking before acting--take a very long time to mature and do not reach full adult capacity until sometime around the mid-twenties. A six year old is truly not capable of the type of discipline and structured thinking and behavior that an adult is. And that's OK--that is why they have parents to teach and direct and keep them safe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After that, I got busy and didn't see the mess until this morning and I just LOST IT!

 

There you go. You're an adult, and you have trouble doing what you know you ought to do. Well, children are just the same, but more so. We've all been there. Don't beat yourself up too much about it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreeing with everyone that at age 6, constant reminders are needed to be effective.  When my kids were little, I created a chart of routines for different times of the day.  I think I just made tables in Word.  For the non-readers, I did little pictures as well.  I laminated the charts and used a wet-erase pen to mark things off. 

 

Morning routine that included getting dressed, breakfast, taking their stuff from the table, brushing teeth, brushing hair, making beds, and picking up laundry.  I had routines for lunch time (cleaning up after oneself and an age-appropriate household chor), after school (clean up school work, another household chore), after dinner, and bedtime.  For several years, I had to ask them to check the chart about 15 times a morning. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:grouphug:

 

Normal. Totally normal. Their brains are still building and simply haven't developed the attention and memory required for the details. That's why they have moms and dads for so many years. :)

 

Be patient with him. There just isn't a magic solution. It takes time and patience and repetition and gentle persistence. Make sure he sees how pleased you are when he remembers even the tiniest thing. "Let's clean up together now," is very appropriate at six, transitioning to "Can you start getting this cleaned up by yourself while I (whatever you need to do), then I'll come help/check when I've finished," as he gets a little older and shows he's ready for a little more independent responsibility.

 

And be patient with yourself. You're learning too. Very kindly and gently, it is your responsibility right now to make sure that he puts his things away. Often massive parental frustration is a sign that the child has been asked to take a leap that's a bit too big a stretch for him (or her). It's so hard when it's your oldest, because you don't have that experience and perspective to guide you in where he should be developmentally. Follow his developmental lead and take baby steps from where he is now to where you want him to be.

 

Good job, momma, asking for input and being willing to adjust your own expectations. :)

 

Cat

 

P.S. It gets a little hairy again around 11-12-13, when their brains are re-organizing and re-building, kind of like their brains are organizing and building around age 6ish. Even the things that they could do a year ago get a little lost for a while. Hang in there. That gets better too. :p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look up Executive Function.  Read Smart but Scattered or ADD Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life.  It doesn't matter if you are ADD or are neurotypical.  Organizational skills come easily to some, but are not natural AT ALL for others.  Kids sometimes also take YEARS to develop EF skills.  And some will never develop them on their own.  They need explicit, clearly laid out instructions and lots of positive reinforcement and consistency and support before these things internalize.  

 

What worked here was treating chores/responsibilities as an apprenticeship.  I told them we were starting over, that I had not been a very good instructor for these things, and we were starting an apprenticeship for some retraining.  I tried to make all feedback positive.  

 

Suggestions that worked here:  Show them how to do it even though you think they should know already. Be positive.  Then have them do it with you alongside.  Then be there to scaffold them.  When they have successes, praise, praise, praise.  When they struggle, show grace.  Give them gentle reminders about the apprenticeship and don't expect them to remember anything on their own.  If they do, great.  Praise it.  If they don't, that's o.k. Just show them again.  Give them a goal to reach to successfully complete their apprenticeship (like, clean up after dinner every day for a week with only a gentle reminder each time) and they receive a certificate or a small treat or a party.  Have a goals chart and check it off if that works best.  Then tell them they are now at Journeyman status.  Still provide encouragement, consistency and positive reinforcement.  Create new goals and celebrate when they are getting there as well as when they succeed.  I promise, even though this sounds like a lot of work, it is a lot less exhausting and a lot more successful and a lot less aggravating in the long run than criticism after the fact and constant nagging.  I tried that route.  Dismal failure.  I read the aforementioned books and turned things around.  Not perfect by any means, but a whole lot better than it was.

 

Good luck and best wishes...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There you go. You're an adult, and you have trouble doing what you know you ought to do. Well, children are just the same, but more so. We've all been there. Don't beat yourself up too much about it.

 

Ironic, isn't it? 

 

Yeah, I felt pretty bad about yelling at him this morning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, at 6 and even at 7 (my oldest), I do a lot of standing over and directing, but there are a few rules/routines in place that have been moving us to more independence.

 

1. One activity out at a time - things that have small pieces (like board games, legos, playmobil) or require art supplies.  I have a special place and they exchange it.  

2. Pick up time while I am making lunch and then later before dinner time.

3. Before we leave the house, either for an errand or to play, we pick up. 

4. I model the behavior myself by putting things away when doing something together.  Board game - you do this, I'll do this.  Great thanks for helping me put it away.

 

It's a process and it takes time.  Hopefully the kids will get there someday.  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look up Executive Function.  Read Smart but Scattered or ADD Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life.  Organizational skills come easily to some, but are not natural AT ALL for others.  Kids sometimes also take YEARS to develop EF skills.  And some will never develop them on their own.  They need explicit, clearly laid out instructions and lots of positive reinforcement and consistency and support before these things internalize.  

 

Yes, as silly as it is, knowing these sorts of strategies from having taught kids with EF disorders and ADHD and so forth really helped me understand how to help my kids when they were younger. Every 6 yo has an executive functioning disorder, after all. ;) And that doesn't mean they'll all grow up to struggle with this stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, as silly as it is, knowing these sorts of strategies from having taught kids with EF disorders and ADHD and so forth really helped me understand how to help my kids when they were younger. Every 6 yo has an executive functioning disorder, after all. ;) And that doesn't mean they'll all grow up to struggle with this stuff.

Yep!  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would something like chore chart help at all?

 

 

Maybe.  The difficulty "I" have had with such things (if I am being very honest) is that it is not easy for me to keep up with.  But probably anything that you can be consistent with will work/help.

 

And in this case I think rewards can go a long way.  I think it's hard to know what some stuff is good for as a kid (and an adult for that matter).  So pairing that with something positive might help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We had lists with little pictures and they had Morning Routines, and Night Time Routines.

 

As far as picking up, helping after meals, etc.  I just told them to do it, every single time.  After a while they start doing it on their own.  

 

As far as cleaning up after a project my 11 year old daughter still hasn't figured that out.  She always ends up coming back when I ask her to. 

 

But if you can afford it, I have had friends that used Accountable Kids and it is an awesome system.  It's a little complicated in terms of weekly meetigns and rewards, at first, but once you get into the routine, it just becomes part of life. It's very visual, very hands on and very consistent and it works all the way up to teenagers....so if I were you, I would start now (again, if you can afford it.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still have to remind my dd to take a shower, and she is 12! lol 

 

Kids will get the hang of things, but repetition is the key to learning. You tell them over and over and over and over.... I finally have my kids clearing their plates, putting their dirty clothes in the hamper, and doing their music lessons. I still have to tell the to brush their teeth, make their beds, etc..Go figure. :p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thing that has helped me (type A neat freak that I am): Pack away toys that are especially problematic, just for a while. All my toddlers have gone through a Dump and Destroy phase of play-style, and it drives.me.batty. My 2.5 year-old's idea of fun is to spread every play-kitchen toy out on the family floor. Then move on to something else. She's too little to successfully pick it all back up by herself (though she's great at smaller chores), and I hate to make the olders responsible for it all the time, so somewhere around my third-trimester last spring I just packed all but a few of the 8,763 pieces of bleepity-bleep kitchen stuff away.

 

And no one minded too much. (The olders just started using imaginary ketchup and imaginary pasta.)

 

And I now had enough reserve patience to tolerate the smaller messes with a smile.

 

And enough energy to teach my olders about routines and responsibilities instead of scream at them.

 

Happy medium for us all.

This made me smile. It sounds like you've been a fly on the wall in my living area after a morning school session when my 4yo and 2yo have been playing with....everything (including the play kitchen toys :) ). Dump and Destroy describes it PERFECTLY. I've been looking around thinking I need to eliminate some things from this area so there is less stuff to pick up at the end of the morning. I think you've just remotivated me to do just that :) .
Link to comment
Share on other sites

P.S. It gets a little hairy again around 11-12-13, when their brains are re-organizing and re-building, kind of like their brains are organizing and building around age 6ish. Even the things that they could do a year ago get a little lost for a while. Hang in there. That gets better too. :p

 

Thank you. I'm about to pull out my hair over my 13yo. I called for the kids to come clear off our school table 4 times this morning, about an hour after we should have started school and just before I got in the shower (I'm awfully slow on Thursdays for some reason). When I got out, the 9yo was the only one who had done anything. I saw dd13 wandering around and asked what she was doing, and why she wasn't helping ds9. Her response? "I was just waiting for you to get out of the shower so I could take one... huh?... Did you ask me to help?...I didn't hear you..." Aargh! We do not live in a large house, all the kids were in the same room, and I was not calling quietly. Having Luna Lovegood living under my roof is driving me batty!  :tongue_smilie:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Constant habit training and conditioning from the time that they are toddlers. Consistency on my part. I limit the stuff they own to what ever amount of stuff they can reasonably take care of and keep clean. We live and die by our routines here.

I don't know if its good or bad, but I use a lot of consequences too--if you leave your junk down, you lose the privilege of  owning it. Simple as that. We have rules and broken rules have consequences. In general, you are free to suffer the consequence as often as you break the rule as far as I'm concerned, special circumstances excepted of course.

 

However, in the last 7+ years, I have explicitly taught how to 'clean up' each and every room in our very small house. We repeated those tutorials 1 gazillion times and they are sticking better and better each month.

 

I hate stepping on things, that is a major Makes-Me-Nutso trigger right there. I'm a single parent, work multiple jobs, go to school FT, I simply cant do it all. I hold the boys fully responsible for certain tasks. I make them do the stuff that they can do. Its our reality, our world where yes, little kids are held responsible for certain tasks. There is no reason you can't put your shoes away. No reason you can only transport toys from the shelf to the floor and not back the other way. No reason you can't put clothes in the hamper, etc.

 

Even with all our routines, rules, jobs, etc. I still have to remind the boys to clean up, but they are getting better about doing a good job of it as they are leave behind the baby & kindergarten years. We still have misses sometimes but its getting gradually better. Cleaning is something every member of the family does. We all live here, we are all responsible for our homes condition. Our house is a far cry from 'nice' or 'new' but I refuse to live in squalor. I'm a little neurotic about it.

 

Also, I don't let big healthy boys sleep through the night around here if the house is messy. I make the boys wake up from their sleep and pick up/clean up along side me. Our night time tidy up sessions are pretty darn successful with the implementation of that rule, lol.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, we have four areas of the house to tidy every day (and vacuum several times a week), and they rotate daily between the four big kids: schoolroom, living room and playroom, kitchen and dining room, and upstairs and steps. (Our upstairs has a large hallway which houses most of our books, and the baby's toys live in the schoolroom, so they get dragged out every day.). I give more grace to the 3yo and 5yo, and I often play "I Spy" with the 3yo to tell him what to clean up, but at least that gets the tidying done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

Ă—
Ă—
  • Create New...