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Young adult drivers and insurance, ??s


swimmermom3
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Please do not quote me as I will need to remove some information from this post.

 

Dh and I find ourselves between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

 

I was driving down the highway today and realized that I was following my 22 yo dd's car.  As I pulled along side before exiting the highway, I realized that dd's new boyfriend was driving the car while happily smoking like chimney. Dd was in passenger seat.

 

Here is the background.  We sold dd my husband's older Camry at below market value because we were concerned that she have a reliable car as some of her work shifts went quite late. She made a down payment that was a little over a third of the total sale price with the understanding that she make monthly payments for the balance. She was also expected to pay for gas and her car insurance which was under our homeowner's/umbrella policy.  Both dh and I have accident-free discounts and were able to give those to both of the older kids to significantly cut their rates.

 

It had been one year since she made the down payment and she has made no other payments since then. She was one of the top clerks at her retail job, but they usually don't let them work more than 25 hours per week.  Dd was finishing up her cosmetology program and will sit for the state boards in two weeks. Anyway, in April dd had a major breakdown and spent a month in an outpatient program. She didn't work much, deciding that she didn't like the new management and just sort of fading out of the job.

 

A couple of months ago, dd ran out of money and dh has been paying her phone bill and her car insurance. She recently started another part time job and dh asked her to at least pay her phone bill, which she did. Her legal residence (on her driver's license) is our house; unofficially, she lives in a house with four other people about a 25 minute drive from us.

 

Since dd is on the car title with my dh, she can legally allow someone else to drive the car, but it makes the insurance agency and us really unhappy because if anything were to happen, our insurance would be at risk. I spoke to our agent today to see about cutting her loose on her own policy.  She can't have her own policy if her legal address is our house, I think. If she has her own policy, her rates will go up by 22% and she will have less coverage than she does with us. If she lists the house where she stays as her legal residence, then the other drivers have to be rated because they have access to her keys and it's considered a household.

 

If you have ever had a child that suffers from severe depression, you know that at times it can be easier to not enforce family rules than risk sending them over the edge.  I think we have reached the limit of what we are willing to absorb.  We have only met the boyfriend once. He is 35 and part owner in an automotive repair shop. (Yes, we googled the ownership.)  We have no idea if he even has a valid driver's license and really aren't happy paying insurance for him to drive.

 

We aren't sure what to do. If we repossess the car and give her some of her money back, she has no transportation for work. In the year she's had it, she has put numerous dinks in the body and it's worth a little over half of last year's value.  We don't want it back for Sailor Dude because it has been smoked in.

 

We don't want to skate around any of the insurance requirements because we have known our agent for over 25 years and we have some very good rates.

 

I hope this makes sense. I am furious with her and am probably not thinking clearly.

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Insurance laws are different in different states. We've kept up college girl's insurance policy until this semester, when she's not a full-time student, even though she's not living under our roof. She's still on our policy but paying us monthly right now, until she gets a post-college job and residence. But we've been very up front with the insurance company about this.

 

That said, my personal point of view is that you've let the pressures of your dd's situation (valid) and the economics of it lead you into falsehood. She's not living @ your house, but she's getting the benefits of it. You can perhaps get further clarification from the insurance company on the legalities in your area, but being led into lying about her address on legal documents because it's more economical is unwise for all concerned. If she can't afford the car in her current situation, it calls for some pretty frank conversations and assessment of alternatives. I get that. We will be having that conversation with college boy, who plans to buy himself his own car this winter...and who will be paying us for his car insurance because we just can't afford to cover it, and he has a teen sister who's a high school senior and *she* needs insurance, too, asap. The family budget just won't stretch. I really do get it.

 

But whatever your daughter's situation, I feel that the principle of truth and truthfulness to all will serve you best.

 

My sympathies!

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I don't know if this solves your problem or not...but when I was a young adult driver, I was able to be on my parents' insurance for a certain amount of time (the details elude me as it was more than 35 years ago now...) but only on the condition (wait for it...) that my DAD not be allowed to drive my car.  (He was lane-change challenged.)

 

Maybe that is something you could discuss with the agency--that you are willing to cover only HER as the driver of the car--and then tell HER what the deal is.  The insurance agency might have variations on a theme--that they'll cover liability but not repair or something...

 

Just a thought.  

 

Immature adult children can be annoying.  

 

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We have young adult drivers. We own three cars to us four drivers. The cars are in our name, so is the insurance. It is my understanding that a car in only the kid's name would warrant their own insurance. Thankfully, both dc are very responsible. Ds got in a wreck (no negligence) and said if our rates go up, he will pay the difference. He paid the deductible and car rental insurance and handled the repairs. He isn't financially independent enough to pay all his expenses, and honestly, our rates aren't that high. I have said to both that if they weren't responsible and something happened to raise our rates, they would be in a world of hurt, beginning with walking everywhere.... and we don't have public transportation.

 

:grouphug:  to you in finding the solution. Its hard. If you take too much money, then it delays financial independence. I don't know your entire situation, but I might try for "no boyfriend driving your car." Its not her car to offer. If the boyfriend can't afford a car, then he definitely can't handle repairs if he wrecks. Your car, your insurance. And the car is for your dd's use, not his. GL

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Well, there's a lot of things going on in your post, but I'll only address the boyfriend driving the car.  We're on our fourth teen driver.  The rule has always been that as long as you're driving our car and on our insurance, absolutely no one else drives the car.  Since it's shared insurance and shared title that means shared liability.   I'd tell her that no one else can drive the car.  If she doesn't like that, then sign the car over to her and take her off of your insurance.  I know she hasn't paid for the car as promised, but it's probably the best for all involved.  Best wishes as you decide what to do.

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My son has depression and addiction. He is doing well now, and that is why I am willing to pay for his insurance he does not live with me but his license says he does.

 

However, no one smokes in a car I own. Period , end of story. My son smokes in the van, but he didn't until he paid for it.

 

35? How old is you dd?

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(((Lisa)))  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Can your dh talk to the boyfriend? Or would that all backfire badly? 

 

The realistic consequences of not paying for a car is that it gets repossessed. Because you are the lienholder, you hold the cards on how that plays out. 

 

If you confront her, will she lie to placate you and then do what she wants? Will that push her away further? 

 

Would it do any good to frame a reply like: 

 

1. the real consequence would be repossession. 

2. because we love you and support your job, we won't do that with the caveat

     a. no one but you drives the car. 

     b. no smoking in the car (if that is what you'd prefer)

     c. a violation of these rules will force you to step back to #1. 

 

 

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What are you most upset about?  That someone other than your daughter was driving the car or that he was smoking in the car?  I see those as really two different issues (he could smoke as a passenger in the car and insurance issues are really not related to that.)

 

Auto insurance rules vary by state, but in many states you must provide information on where an automobile on your policy is usually parked.  If something should happen, for example, the car is broken into where your daughter lives, the insurance might be void if you have it listed at your home address but the insurance company determines that your daughter is the primary driver and lives at a different residence.

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With our insurance, we have it set up the same way you do (with similarly aged dc). The dc in school away from home are legally required to be on our policy because it is their legal home address, even though they live elsewhere the great majority of the time. We are not allowed to take them off of our insurance since we are their legal address. Our insurance covers ANYONE who is driving any of our vehicles. I have told the kids to allow friends to drive if they feel it would be a safer situation than them driving. (Too tired, need a break on a long road trip, had a drink too many but friend hasn't, or just plain old feeling a little out of it.) 

 

I think in your situation, I would have a talk with your dd and set a plan in motion for her to assume complete responsibility for the car simply due to her age and where she is in her life.  If you feel this could set her back mentally, I don't think I would do it yet. What does insurance say about other people driving the car? Ours is absolutely fine with it. It would not cause any problems with our insurance rates if there were an accident. (We have accident forgiveness.) If there were an accident, we would have to adjust our thinking until a year passed and we were in the clear on claims again. The smoking I would be very unhappy about, but I wouldn't consider it my car/therefore, none of my business at this point.

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My kids are young and I don't have any advice, but if it makes you feel better I would be very surprised if the boyfriend doesn't have a license and insurance. Being part owner of an automotive shop, he probably has to move cars around the shop/lot and drive them to see how they're running and if a problem/noise has been fixed. Especially if he's a co-owner; I doubt someone would want to be in an automotive repair business with someone who doesn't have a insurance, much less a license.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

It sounds tough.

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Sorry about what you're going through.  I get it, to an extent.  Your daughter is an adult who doesn't live with you.  She needs to secure her own auto insurance, if possible ~ and if not, work within that reality.  Stop twisting yourself into a pretzel, getting worked up about things that should no longer be your concern.

 

 

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I see at least three separate issues here: dd not making car (or other) payments, unclear information regarding insurance, dd's life choices.  I see all of them ganging up and causing you great consternation over everything, ever.

 

Work out the payment issues.  Communicate with her and tell her that she has violated the agreement and that, although you do not want to, you are within your rights to take the car.  Ask her what she wants.  If she is not working the same job that she was, is the car necessary?  Nice, obviously, but necessary?  I get why you wouldn't want to take it. I really do.  However, this needs to be acknowledged and worked out, because it is setting a precedence about what you will tolerate.  I understand you have concerns about sending the child over the edge, but please remember what it means to be in a healthy relationship with said child.  It is ALWAYS better to be straightforward and honest. Can you sit down with her and her therapist?  Or with a family counselor?

 

I don't understand what you mean when you say that your insurance will be "at risk."  I just wrecked my boyfriend's parent's car (that was embarrassing for me to admit on this thread, but at least I was not smoking ;) ) and their rates will not budge.  Isn't the point of insurance to cover you in the event of an accident?  You are paying a huge amount of money, wouldn't it be nice to get some of it back?  I'm kidding...  Is it full coverage?  Can you knock it down to liability?  I'm not sure it's even possible anymore to "skate" around insurance requirements, but it is possible to adjust individual policies on things.

 

If she has her own policy, in addition to the rate increase, what do you mean by less coverage?  Do you mean liability instead of full coverage, or do you mean lesser payouts?  Do you have way more than the state minimum?  Do you NEED way more than the state minimum?  With regards to her housemates, my legal address is shared with my parents and dd19.  My parents have a policy with a completely different insurance company than me and my dd.  We are excluded from their policy, and they are excluded from ours.  That just means that they are not drivers of my vehicle, and I do not have to pay for them to be on my insurance.  And this was true even though my father's name was on the title of my car. My point is that I have found things to be quite flexible.

 

I have to go back to the honesty thing.  Be honest with her, ask her to help you understand her choices, try not to judge, I know that sounds much easier than it really is.  Get to know the boyfriend?  At least he has a job?

 

 

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Likelihood of ever being paid back for the car?  Very low.

Likelihood of being held liable in some fashion if she has an accident?  Fairly good.

Huge headache and stress inducer?  Definitely!

 

I would go with the odds.  Just give her the car as an outright gift - sign over the title and call it good.  If she is still your dependent, you will probably have to pay for the auto insurance one way or another - either with her listed as being under your policy or paying for her to buy one of her own (I understand it wouldn't be reasonable to expect her to be able to pay for it herself now).  Maybe pay for the policy in advance for the first year as "congratulations on finishing the cosmetology boards" gift.

 

Maybe things will be easier in a year financially for her with her cosmetology license and she can take over the payments.

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It sounds like you are upset about a whole lot of things that have nothing to do with insurance.

 

You and your dh need to make a decision about the insurance, car and her phone. Are you willing to pay or not? Like it or not (and I know how it is not to like things), she is a legal adult. You can't make her do anything. Tying her behavior to these gifts only makes it feel manipulative to her.

 

Pay or not. If you decide to pay, then accept that you still are not going to be able to make decisions for her, depression or no. If you decide not to pay, then she faces some consequences that she may or may not blame you for. What are you willing to risk?

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Insurance laws are different in different states. We've kept up college girl's insurance policy until this semester, when she's not a full-time student, even though she's not living under our roof. She's still on our policy but paying us monthly right now, until she gets a post-college job and residence. But we've been very up front with the insurance company about this.

 

That said, my personal point of view is that you've let the pressures of your dd's situation (valid) and the economics of it lead you into falsehood. She's not living @ your house, but she's getting the benefits of it. You can perhaps get further clarification from the insurance company on the legalities in your area, but being led into lying about her address on legal documents because it's more economical is unwise for all concerned. If she can't afford the car in her current situation, it calls for some pretty frank conversations and assessment of alternatives. I get that. We will be having that conversation with college boy, who plans to buy himself his own car this winter...and who will be paying us for his car insurance because we just can't afford to cover it, and he has a teen sister who's a high school senior and *she* needs insurance, too, asap. The family budget just won't stretch. I really do get it.

 

But whatever your daughter's situation, I feel that the principle of truth and truthfulness to all will serve you best.

 

My sympathies!

 

This time last year, we had four licensed drivers and two cars. During the day I was teaching Sailor Dude and he had a couple of classes at the high school as well as sailing and swim practice. The older kids had graduated from high school and held part-time jobs with hours that ranged as late at 2 am and as early as 4am. Dd also attended cosmetology school across town. One car for the four of us at home didn't cut it. Dh's old car had a few dinks from new drivers but was sound mechanically. This went to dd. We found the same make, slightly older, but in better body condition, for elder ds. We could not afford to gift two cars while acquiring another car for dh.  Both kids made down payments with the same agreement: the cars were in both a parent and a kid's name until they were paid off; they were responsible for insurance and basic maintenance;  and no one else drives the car (emergency excepted).

 

The "no smoking until the car is yours" came into play because our dd had started smoking in cosmetology school. Four of us, including dd, have asthma. While the older kids were living at home, their cars were used to teach their younger brother to drive as they are less unwieldy than my mini van. We always reimbursed generously for gas and never took a car without permission.

 

Our son now lives on his own and is about one payment away from owning his car. He continues to pay for his insurance which is on our policy.  The insurance company recommended that his address remain our home address because it was still a bit of an experiment as to whether he could maintain his own household. They treat his car and renter's insurance in a similar manner as if he were a college student.

 

As I mentioned before, we've been with our insurance agent for a long time. My folks built his family's home and his daughters babysat our kids. We've tried to show our kids the gift of relationships as part of trying to ease their way into the adult world. They have sat and talked with our agent; they know our mechanic.

 

You are right about the truthfulness. Currently we feel compromised on many areas; we don't want integrity to be one of them.

 

 

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I may be off base.

 

Would you be as upset with your dd if the boyfriend was a nonsmoker, 22-24 yo, finished college, employed and studying for the CPA exam?

 

Your dd is a smoker. Bad choice on her, especially with asthma. She's an adult. She can make that choice. Since she's not living with you, hindsight should probably tell you she will smoke in the car.

 

Smokers date smokers in part because no smokers don't want to be around smoke. So, you can hate that the boyfriend smokes, but if your dd dated someone else that person would likely be a smoker too.

 

Boyfriend is 35. Yes, I would hate this. But your dd is an adult you can't pick who she dates. Making your dislike known loudly will likely result in her clinging to the relationship more. She might even stay in the relationship after she knows it's over for a good amount of time because she knows you are wrong about him. I have personal experience with that choice.

 

Boyfriend co owns a business and is a mechanic. This actually sounds good. I assume if he's an owner he has several certifications. Owning the business shows some drive.

 

If this is about the car and her not making payments, not paying insurance, then you have a choice

1. Take the car back sell it and tell her tough--she didn't follow through. I know you don't want to do this because you want her to finish her cosmetology work and be fully launched with her own job skills.

2. Accept that the car is an unintentional gift. When she gets her state license you can fully gift ownership, say you are proud of her and tell her she's on her own for insurance and repairs.

 

It seems like you are using the car to get at the relationship with the boyfriend you dislike. Usually doing that doesn't work.

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Two small thoughts (neither of which require a public answer, of course):

 

1.  Is there any possibility that she asked boyfriend to drive the car because she thought there might be something wrong with it?  Funny noise, slight pull to the left, etc.  It would certainly make sense given that he is a mechanic.

 

2.  Is there any harm or benefit to postponing any discussion/decision with her until the boards are finished?

 

Hugs to you, Lisa.  I hope you come to a peaceful resolution soon.

 

 

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Lisa, it sounds like the car is the nexus of a lot of other stuff. I sympathize; I really do. My 22yo is on her THIRD college car. The first one, dh's handmedown, died. The second one, which she bought herself with the aid of a mechanical friend to evaluate it, cost a fair bit in repairs and then 2 years later she rolled it on the freeway while avoiding another accident. Praise God, she walked away from that one, but the car was totalled. At least she was not at fault and while there was no insurance payout on her old car, at least the insurance didn't go up and the accident didn't go on her record. Her third car has 175K miles on it and we are praying it lasts until she has a good post-college job. And her particular boyfriend issue is a whole 'nother ball of wax...somehow I can't get my head around making you-tube videos and working as a stuntman at an amusement park as a long-term career package, KWIM?

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