IEW -- tell me this gets better

[mom@shiloh]

My 4th and 5th grader are taking an IEW class at co-op.  Wow.  I really despise it.  It seriously makes me want to throw the nearest thing through the window.  The nearest things are my laptop and my printer.  Not a good idea.  It just seems so rigid and totally strips creativity out of the writing process.  It also causes huge anxiety issues for them, trying to do just the right thing.  I think we're stuck with it for the year so someone please tell me this gets better.  

 

There.  I just needed to complain somewhere and I don't want to complain to the moms who are volunteering to teach it and complaining to someone else is too much like gossiping, so here I am.  :>

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

For some kids, IEW is a gift.  It helps them make sense of the writing process, gives them the basic building blocks desparately needed to go on to more flexible, creative writing and is an overall wonderful program.  For other kids it is the bane of their existence and causes nothing but stress and trauma.  

 

Hopefully you will get some good suggestions here for ways to make it more palatable to your family since you are sort of stuck with it for now.  Many here use the program with great success.  My kids and I are using it but we have only really just started.  They are dyslexic and needed more structure than most writing programs provide.

 

Good luck and best wishes!

[marynamo]

Gosh, sorry it is not a good experience for you. Do you think the way the person is presenting it might be the issue?

 

we are not using it yet, but going to. I heard nothing but good things about the program. There is a yahoo group if you maybe want to join there and see if they can assist with the problems?

[OneStepAtATime]

Gosh, sorry it is not a good experience for you. Do you think the way the person is presenting it might be the issue?

 

we are not using it yet, but going to. I heard nothing but good things about the program. There is a yahoo group if you maybe want to join there and see if they can assist with the problems?

Great idea!  Join the Yahoo group.  I think there is a group on here, too, but I don't believe it is very active.

[JoJosMom]

FWIW, we tried it last year.  Survey says:  :ack2:

 

DD is an extremely willing and creative writer.  It was SO not a good fit for her.  :grouphug:  to you.  Hopefully, your coop has many other benefits that outweigh a less-than-optimal curriculum.

[marbel]

My kids hated it too.  I get the point of learning how to write formulaic sentences but it was a killer for my kids.   Maybe they were too old when they started it.  The checklists of adverbs, sentence beginnings, sentence types, etc., were so frustrating.   They did not want to write anything after that.

 

After that, I've asked teachers presenting homeschool writing classes if they are doing IEW.  Most give me an emphatic "NO!" which tells me that we are not the only ones who hated it. 

 

I do get that I'm in the minority and that different things work for different people.  

[albeto.]

My kids couldn't stand it, and neither could I. Stripping of all creativity is a good summary of my impression of it. Others find it a valuable resource. Listen to your kids. Do what works for them. You get to provide them a tailor-made education, how cool is that? :)

[mom@shiloh]

So many people have given me such glowing reviews of IEW.  I was so glad a class was being offered.  Sigh.

 

If I was doing it at home I could tweak it.  The class rules seem pretty rigid to me and one of my kids is super sensitive to anything that feels the slightest bit like criticism to her, no matter how gently it's offered.  Oh well.  I'm going to put on my big girl panties and help them plow through.  .Thanks for the input.

[Heathermomster]

My take is that IEW over teaches concepts so that the student internalizes the process.  DS has used it for two years and benefited, but it was very difficult.  ETA:  He is now taking Elegant Essay easily.  

[marynamo]

Just as interest those who used it and didn't like it, what to use instead?

[warneral]

I hated it too. Far too contrived, and it didn't really make them THINK about what they read overall. We did the first 10 or so lessons from level A and stopped

[OneStepAtATime]

FWIW, as I understand it the primary program is really tremendously helpful for some kids (especially those that really find writing in general incredibly hard and confusing) but the primary program (for natural writers especially) is completely tedious and nerve wracking (as I mentioned upthread).  But their other writing programs usually used AFTER the primary program are really better for a larger audience.  Unfortunately, the primary program can be such a bad fit for more natural writers that many never even get to the other material.  I have not used those myself but this is what was being stated on a previous thread.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I found value in it after I basically just took the student resource notebook and taught from it.  I used it successfully in a co-op to get reluctant writers to write and to help build confidence...but I was never legalistic about the checklists. We used them mostly as a list for remembering the stylistic techniques that we could add in to our writing.  I did especially like the list of sentence openers.  I also found some use using it the same way for my own children for about a year.  I can't imagine using it year after year though.  It really can be torturous for creative, willing writers, and if you add a rigid teacher who isn't willing to adapt the program to suit the student it can do more harm than good. 

 

I'm sorry that it isn't a good fit for your children.  I hope you're able to help them get something out of it other than a dislike for writing. :(

[Chelli]

It was a bust here too.

 

I started out hopeful, but  :ack2:  about sums it up.

 

Thankfully, it led me to Writing and Rhetoric (the first book was released at the exact time that we gave up on IEW) which was the perfect fit.

[HS Mom in NC]

You can search for other discussions here and see why other people don't like IEW.   I'm one of those people who thinks IEW teaches bad writing, so you'll get lots of sympathy from me.

[Roadrunner]

I'm one of those people who thinks IEW teaches bad writing, so you'll get lots of smypathy from me.

Can you elaborate? Everybody IRL raves about IEW. I am so I credibly tempted to try.

[happyhome]

My 4th and 5th grader are taking an IEW class at co-op. Wow. I really despise it. It seriously makes me want to throw the nearest thing through the window. The nearest things are my laptop and my printer. Not a good idea. It just seems so rigid and totally strips creativity out of the writing process. It also causes huge anxiety issues for them, trying to do just the right thing. I think we're stuck with it for the year so someone please tell me this gets better.

 

There. I just needed to complain somewhere and I don't want to complain to the moms who are volunteering to teach it and complaining to someone else is too much like gossiping, so here I am. :>

Similar experience here too! I have natural writers and my eldest called IEW her "straight jacket!" I have seen kids that love it. From those that I know, it seems like it fits that proverbial kid that stares at a blank piece of paper like a deer in headlights, wondering what to write. For a kid where ideas and "dress ups" come naturally, IEW can feel very limiting. We moved on from it quickly because I didn't want writing, something they loved, to turn into a chore.

 

Why are you stuck with it? I realize you did it through a co-op but will they offer you a credit towards another class? Or maybe somebody on a waiting list wants to take your spot? Your kids might get something out of it, but is it a good idea to push something that causes that much anxiety? It seems like your kids like to write. Preserving that would be my top priority.

 

If you really are stuck, maybe just help them use it as a "tools in the toolbox" thing. So, you could explain that dress ups are ways to enhance writing and good writers become experts at using these tools when they are needed. So, including them in each paragraph becomes more about "practice" on how to use that tool, instead of you must use it every time. That was the only way I could sell it to my crew and I have to say it worked for a bit but got old quickly.

 

FWIW, we moved on to LTOW for my 8th grader, Brave Writer for my 6th grader and Writing & Rhetoric for my 4th grader. We're very happy we cut bait and made the switch. Good luck!

[HS Mom in NC]

Here's an old thread about it:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/501407-do-some-think-iew-could-be-bad-for-a-childs-writing-skills/?hl=iew%20not%20good

[Mrs Twain]

IEW is drill. It ingrains stylistic techniques into the kids' brains so that they eventually come out naturally.

 

I always alternate IEW with another writing program. That way we do one assignment with the checklist and the next assignment without one.

 

IEW has made my kids much better writers, but I did not see it immediately. My eldest child is a natural writer and is doing his fourth year of IEW. I am grateful and extremely satisfied with the results. All of posters on this thread so far seem to be people who tried IEW only for only a short time and quickly gave it up. Perhaps the yahoo group would give you insight from people who have persevered with the program.

[Julie of KY]

IEW was wonderful for mathy rules-following boy. It was a place for him to start with writing. He's now using Bravewriter to find his voice in writing.

 

My kids that more naturally write didn't care fore IEW much, but it didn't particularly bother them either and they learned a lot.

 

When I taught IEW in co-op, the natural writers did fine and did not find the IEW rules too confining. Maybe it was just my style of teaching, I don't know.

[Hakg]

Tear inducing - that's what the SWI-A was for my grade 3 child.  We tried again in grade 4 and he was better able to cope.  We also dropped the SWI-A and went with a theme book (ATFF) which for some reason is a lot easier for him to stomach.

[mom31257]

The Yahoo Group is converting over to Forums on the IEW website. I don't know when all the files will be transferred over, but they are already approving forum memberships. 

[Haiku]

Why are you stuck with it? You're a homeschooler. You're never stuck with a curriculum that doesn't fit. I wouldn't waste a year on a hated curriculum. I'd take my kids out of the class.

[happyhome]

IEW is drill. It ingrains stylistic techniques into the kids' brains so that they eventually come out naturally.

 

I always alternate IEW with another writing program. That way we do one assignment with the checklist and the next assignment without one.

 

IEW has made my kids much better writers, but I did not see it immediately. My eldest child is a natural writer and is doing his fourth year of IEW. I am grateful and extremely satisfied with the results. All of posters on this thread so far seem to be people who tried IEW only for only a short time and quickly gave it up. Perhaps the yahoo group would give you insight from people who have persevered with the program.

 

 

This is a really good point.  I never thought to alternate it with another program.  I think I'll add it along with W&R for my 4th grader.  I love the tools in IEW.  It's the monotony and formula that killed it for us.  I hated giving it up because there is so much good to be gleaned from it, not to mention the 8hrs of self teaching I did with TWSS.  Alternating with something else is a good solution to that dilemma.  Thanks!!

[In the Rain]

IEW is drill. It ingrains stylistic techniques into the kids' brains so that they eventually come out naturally.

 

I always alternate IEW with another writing program. That way we do one assignment with the checklist and the next assignment without one.

 

IEW has made my kids much better writers, but I did not see it immediately. My eldest child is a natural writer and is doing his fourth year of IEW. I am grateful and extremely satisfied with the results. All of posters on this thread so far seem to be people who tried IEW only for only a short time and quickly gave it up. Perhaps the yahoo group would give you insight from people who have persevered with the program.

 

I agree with this. I alternate IEW with W&R, or MCT writing assignments. I notice that my kids independently apply some of the skills they've learned in IEW. The IEW framework has been very helpful for better organizing the ideas of my oldest dd, who is a natural writer with a strong voice.

 

 

It is much more difficult for my younger dd, but I am seeing progress. 

[FloridaLisa]

IEW can be a good fit but it depends on the student and it greatly depends on how it is taught. Not that the co-op teaching it well or not, but I think IEW needs some flexibility. Taught with rigidity it would be waaaay too much for me.  Be thankful it's a year and/or see if you can talk to the teachers about loosening up the checklist.  Often with IEW, I've seen students use the dress ups incorrectly or poorly just to get the check mark. Ugh. 

 

 

Just as interest those who used it and didn't like it, what to use instead?

 

I love our years with Classical Writing -- especially Aesop and Homer for Older Beginners.  This year for the first time, I'm using Writing with Skill book 3.  I really, really like it so far and I'm a bit disappointed I never tried it before this year. 

 

Lisa

[warneral]

IEW can be a good fit but it depends on the student and it greatly depends on how it is taught. Not that the co-op teaching it well or not, but I think IEW needs some flexibility. Taught with rigidity it would be waaaay too much for me. Be thankful it's a year and/or see if you can talk to the teachers about loosening up the checklist. Often with IEW, I've seen students use the dress ups incorrectly or poorly just to get the check mark. Ugh.

 

 

 

I love our years with Classical Writing -- especially Aesop and Homer for Older Beginners. This year for the first time, I'm using Writing with Skill book 3. I really, really like it so far and I'm a bit disappointed I never tried it before this year.

 

Lisa

Yeah that was my problem. I'm a rule follower and we couldn't do the whole checklist for swiA because there wasn't enough text to work with some times.

[Roadrunner]

I agree with this. I alternate IEW with W&R, or MCT writing assignments. I notice that my kids independently apply some of the skills they've learned in IEW. The IEW framework has been very helpful for better organizing the ideas of my oldest dd, who is a natural writer with a strong voice.

 

 

It is much more difficult for my younger dd, but I am seeing progress.

But it contradicts to MCT. Encouraging kids to use adverbs is against the teaching in MCT.

 

We just got SWI-B and I am so disappointed in what I am seeing. Maybe my expectations were high, but I am not sure what we would get out of the program if we decided to use it.

[Alte Veste Academy]

But it contradicts to MCT. Encouraging kids to use adverbs is against the teaching in MCT.

I have been following this thread, as someone who incorporates IEW into my overall writing program (aka The Kitchen Sink ;) ). I personally LOVE to use contradictory resources to teach everything, but especially writing. It perfectly demonstrates that there is no such thing as one kind of good writing. There are many different styles of great writing. I remember responding once to a thread about some writing technique that was deemed categorically bad with dozens of examples from Wind in the Willows. [ETA: It was about adverbs and synonyms for said. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/463927-good-writing/?p=4835013 And MCT loves WitW!]

 

No one person, program, philosophy has got the market cornered on good writing. If everyone wrote following the exact same rules, how boring books would be!

 

And since I am here, I will say I agree with those who said IEW is best taught with flexibility. I think that is true of any program though, and I am aiming for my kids to develop their own voice. What I said in another thread a while back...

 

As to complaints about writing sounding formulaic, stilted, awkward, etc., I will say that (whether using IEW or not) I always have my kids read and reread their own writing aloud to themselves as part of the process. They catch a lot of their own bad writing that way. Just including the elements isn't enough here; they must learn to use them well. To that end, I edit, we partner, they tweak, I edit, we partner, they tweak... We work until it is right.

 

I truly do not understand the idea of abandoning IEW due to a student using elements incorrectly and/or producing stilted, incorrect writing. Here, that would be evidence that my students need more work on those elements, not less. I don't sigh and think how awkward. I say to my student, a, b, and c are really good, but x, y, and z sound a bit awkward, so let's see how we might change it up. Tools are removed from the checklist when kids have them down pat. I don't think it is up to IEW to teach my kids; I think it is up to me to teach IEW (and/or any other resource). I am in the trenches with writing. Mere introduction of tools isn't going to magically make my kids sound like seasoned writers from the start. They have to practice using the tools, and I am their coach.

 

Of course it is harder to be flexible and provide this kind of instruction with an outside class, because you are giving up some control whenever you outsource.

[Roadrunner]

For me it's a matter of contradictory message. My kids are young, so it's harder for a young child to tdigest different philosophies of instruction. I don't know if and how I will end up using IEW, but I am trying to figure out what it will provide us if I strip the stylistic elements from the program. I do want a variety, but I do think sometimes too many chefs are in the kitchen. :)

[Farrar]

That's really interesting, Alte Veste. I had to think about that a little bit because I do agree with it generally - I am a throw everything at the wall until it sticks sort of teacher as well, I think, especially with language arts. And I also feel like rules are made to be broken and bent. I guess I just wonder at what point you say the presentation or emphasis is the cause of the stilted, awkward writing versus the student just hasn't grasped that ideas in the writing. I don't have much experience with IEW myself, I just know that so many people feel like the emphasis on formula is what leads to the formulaic writing and that this approach is, in a way, by design - that IEW is an approach that wants formulaic writing. And if someone doesn't want that sort of writing, they should look elsewhere. 

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

IEW is an approach that wants formulaic writing.

I disagree though. I don't think IEW "wants" formulaic writing. Rather, it instructs through the use of formulaic rubrics until the use of each tool is natural, at which point the "formula" can be dropped. Honestly, when I am using Killgallon or Image Grammar (or just my own teaching instincts with copy work), I am requiring the same thing. In other words, we are going to practice this or that skill until we have got it down pat. That said, I don't allow my kids to hand in junky writing as a final product. We polish. Maybe a big problem for some people who use or outsource IEW is that there is not enough parental interaction/support for the student built in.

[Farrar]

I disagree though. I don't think IEW "wants" formulaic writing. Rather, it instructs through the use of formulaic rubrics until the use of each tool is natural, at which point the "formula" can be dropped. Honestly, when I am using Killgallon or Image Grammar (or just my own teaching instincts with copy work), I am requiring the same thing. In other words, we are going to practice this or that skill until we have got it down pat. That said, I don't allow my kids to hand in junky writing as a final product. We polish. Maybe a big problem for some people who use or outsource IEW is that there is not enough support for the student built in.

 

Like I said, that's more the reputation than my own experience since I have almost none with IEW. I agree with the idea that a rubric or a strong preset structure can be extremely useful for students. When I was school teaching this age group, I used to sit kids down and write the outline for them and make them follow it if they were really struggling... and at some point, eventually (sometimes two years later eventually...) they would start to get it themselves. I wonder if people are themselves unsure about writing and how to teach it if IEW might be a difficult resource because it doesn't help the teacher understand how to walk students toward transcending that formula or even understanding that the end goal is to get beyond the formula, not to embrace the confines. But like I said, I wouldn't know... just going on reputation.

[Alte Veste Academy]

The program does make it clear to coach kids through awkwardness and to drop dress-ups as they are mastered. But I agree that homeschoolers who are unsure of writing are less likely to be flexible with the program and more likely to strictly adhere to the rubric exactly as laid out instead of modifying as necessary. I suppose they would also be less likely to coach, model, and basically throw in their own two cents, which is what I think is most beneficial regardless of the program used.

[Heathermomster]

The program does make it clear to coach kids through awkwardness and to drop dress-ups as they are mastered. But I agree that homeschoolers who are unsure of writing are less likely to be flexible with the program and more likely to strictly adhere to the rubric exactly as laid out instead of modifying as necessary. I suppose they would also be less likely to coach, model, and basically throw in their own two cents, which is what I think is most beneficial regardless of the program used.

 

When are teachers supposed to drop the dress-ups?  Is that step part of the SWI process?  DS took two IEW thematic writing classes with an IEW certified teacher.  The teacher insisted upon the dress-ups or points were deducted.  

 

While taking the IEW class, DS would also write narrations at home.  At home, I snipped any dress-up that seemed odd.  

 

Over the summer, I set a timer and asked DS to write about whatever was on his mind.  I did not critique him.  The experience was interesting because a flood gate of writing opened up.  The writing came faster and with more mature sentences.

 

DS is currently taking the Elegant Essay with a co-op teacher, and the class has been a good and bad experience.  The writing comes easier since he chooses his topics, but the Elegant Essay does not use KWOs.  Writing organization is my son's primary issue.  I feel like all the thematic writing using KWOs has not properly prepared him for the next level of high school writing, and I don't know what to make of that.

[8filltheheart]

. I feel like all the thematic writing using KWOs has not properly prepared him for the next level of high school writing, and I don't know what to make of that.

The problem I saw with students who had been taught to rely on KWO was that they focused on summarizing vs. being able to generate and develop a thesis. Their writing often crossed the line into plagiarism b/c they did not understand that you could not simply re-write something in your own words and call it yours.

[Heathermomster]

The problem I saw with students who had been taught to rely on KWO was that they focused on summarizing vs. being able to generate and develop a thesis. Their writing often crossed the line into plagiarism b/c they did not understand that you could not simply re-write something in your own words and call it yours.

You mentioned this before, so I have been very careful to watch DS.  There is a fine line between re-phrasing a sentence to support your own thesis and hijacking someone else's thoughts with a rewrite and claiming it as your own.  

  

ETA:  You are absolutely right about the summarizing.  We are currently working on developing thesis statements now.  Thankfully, logic is speeding that process along.

[Roadrunner]

The program does make it clear to coach kids through awkwardness and to drop dress-ups as they are mastered. But I agree that homeschoolers who are unsure of writing are less likely to be flexible with the program and more likely to strictly adhere to the rubric exactly as laid out instead of modifying as necessary. I suppose they would also be less likely to coach, model, and basically throw in their own two cents, which is what I think is most beneficial regardless of the program used.

I disagree that that the problem is with unsure parents rather than the rigidity of the program. IEW student intensive (I don't know other programs, so I refrain judgement) is very specific about what it requires of the student. If you strip the program of its specifics, there isn't much left to it. KWO and rubric is the IEW. Strip the program those elements and you might as well don't bother buying it (referring to the SWI). 

 

I can see for struggling writers how KWO and dress ups can help. I really do. But yes, as everybody says on this board, this program isn't necessary or desirable for kids who like writing. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

When are teachers supposed to drop the dress-ups? Is that step part of the SWI process? DS took two IEW thematic writing classes with an IEW certified teacher. The teacher insisted upon the dress-ups or points were deducted.

Honestly, I can't remember. And frankly, I am pretty unqualified to be an IEW spokesperson because I Frankenstein everything I use. We watched the SWI-A lessons, then used our own content for them (and this was 2 years ago). I am fuzzy, but I know it is mentioned in the TWSS, which is honestly where I think IEW shines...probably because I like control. :)

 

I disagree that that the problem is with unsure parents rather than the rigidity of the program. IEW student intensive (I don't know other programs, so I refrain judgement) is very specific about what it requires of the student. If you strip the program of its specifics, there isn't much left to it. KWO and rubric is the IEW. Strip the program those elements and you might as well don't bother buying it (referring to the SWI).

 

I can see for struggling writers how KWO and dress ups can help. I really do. But yes, as everybody says on this board, this program isn't necessary or desirable for kids who like writing.

LOL See above. To be fair, I never said "the problem" was anything. (And it is never a problem to say a program just isn't a fit for teacher or child.) I was just chatting about flexibility, which I personally know is possible, because it can salvage a program that might otherwise be a misfit. From my own perspective, when I use TWSS or use SWI as a teaching tool which I control rather than as a complete open and go, these are the rules, no exceptions program, I imagine I get very different results as the takeaway hard-copy final product. Also, to be clear, I never said take away either the KWO or the rubric. But I personally x things off the rubric or add some we are working on with other resources (or use other rubrics, or make my own, or do without). Also, of course, plagiarism is not a special problem of IEW. WWS starts off asking the student to do basically the same thing, write phrases and turn those into a paragraph. So many programs start out this way.

 

Anyway, as I said, I am not an ideal spokesperson for IEW. I just think that, as with any program, results will be better with flexible, hands-on teaching tailored to each student, something I know firsthand is possible with IEW (TWSS, SWI, and even themes). This may be why teaching IEW is often seen as rigid in a coop. Regardless, if how it is taught is not a fit, it's not a fit. :)

[Erin]

FWIW, we tried it last year.  Survey says:  :ack2:

 

DD is an extremely willing and creative writer.  It was SO not a good fit for her.  :grouphug:  to you.  Hopefully, your coop has many other benefits that outweigh a less-than-optimal curriculum.

 

This was our experience as well. 

 

I love to write and as time passes, it becomes increasingly obvious that Buck likes to write as well, despite the dyslexia.  And as much as I wanted to like IEW, it was just too formulaic for us.  

I was actually hoping the formula would be exactly what he needed, as he tends to still be kind of spastic in his writing.  ...Chaotic and all over the place, much like a 5 year old when he's telling you some wild story.   But instead it tended to be stifling.  

[angela in ohio]

Many of the issues people have with IEW are about early steps of the program. IEW is actually a great antidote to plagiarizing, but you have to get to later units to get to that.  The same is true for the assignments with formulas for style; they are exercises to encourage experimentation and mastery of potential stylistic techniques, not an end product.

 

There are certain things I wouldn't leave to a volunteer teacher, and writing and math are at the top of that list. I would suggest pulling your dc out of the class. IEW is an excellent program, and I have used it successfully with both struggling writers and natural writers, but it is not served well by poor quality teaching.

[Suzanne115]

My daughter and I hated it too.  She is a good writer and has always enjoyed it.  In fifth grade, she did IEW through a local homeschool group.  She hated it and I did too.  It is very well regarded and often recommended here, but it was not for us.  It may have went better if I did it with her but I am not sure.

 

 

Suzanne

[GrammarGirl]

I taught in a school that used it as a supplement, and I hated it. Since how much we incorporated it was left up to individual teachers, I did very little with it. The dress-ups drove me and the kids nuts. Once my juniors and I did a paraphrase together (not an IEW assignment). When we completed it, one of my students groaned and asked if we had to add dress-ups. I said absolutely not because our paragraph had such good.cohesion that adding anything would mess it up. In an attempt to create style, IEW can actually kill style.