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When to teach reading in foreign language?


carina
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DH and I are wanting to raise our kids as bilingual as possible, which is really hard since neither of us are native speakers in anything other than English. So I know I have a LOT of hard work ahead of me. DH is better than I am at French and it wouldn't take him long to have a professional working knowledge of the language. So, as we stand right now we are slowly swapping out words and phrases as we learn them. Once we learn how to say it in French the English equivalent goes out the window, at least while we are at home. Hoping to some day be able to hire a native speaker to come hangout with us a few times a week, but until then it's just us.

 

Anyway, now on to the actual question. We are thinking of teaching the kids to read French first then move on to reading in English later. About how many words should we have under our belts before this would be a good idea. At the moment we know about 100 words and a dozen or so phrases, DH thinks we all ought to know more first, so how much more? 500? 1000? I know this is kind of abstract, and at the earliest it would be February before we would buy any reading programs (thanks tax return!) Just wondering if anyone else has thought of this. I'd like to know so I know what our weekly/monthly goals should be until then.

 

Oh, and my oldest turned 5 this summer so I'm not in a terrible hurry to get her reading, I know I've got a little bit of time. :)

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Guest jim.porter

I'm not sure how much this helps but I did at one time extract the 100 most common words from our Spanish program. I guess the same words would apply equally to French:

 

es - it is / he is / she is (appears 445 times)
no - no (379)
un - a (351)
y - and (335)
de – of (231)
qué - what (228)
sí - yes (222)
una - a / one (170)
tiene - he has / she has / it has (164)
hola – hello (157)
está - it is / he is / she is (151)
me - to me / myself (147)
el - the (140)
gusta - like (135)
gracias – thanks (123)
la - the (123)
tengo – I have (122)
muy – very (111)
a - to (111)
en - in (104)
dos – two (97)
más - more (86)
hay - there is / there are (86)
mi - my (85)
soy – I am (85)
nada – nothing (82)
toma - take (79)
vamos - let’s go (78)
años – years (68)
uno - one (67)
aquí - here (66)
tres – three (66)
cinco – five (66)
los - the (63)
dónde - where (57)
te - you (55)
cuatro - four (55)
sé - I know (53)
mira – look (53)
lo - it (52)
tu – your (52)
por - for (50)
que - that (49)
o - or (49)
aquí - here (48)
son - they are (47)
nueve - nine (44)
las – the (41)
bien – well (41)
jugar - to play (41)
llamo - I call (40)
treinta – thirty (40)
gustan – they like (40)
número - number (39)
vale - ok (38)
con - with (37)
yo – I (37)
buenas – good (34)
cómo - how (34)
ver - to see (34)
estoy - I am (33)
cuántos – how many (33)
también - also (33)
mucho - a lot (33)
cincuenta - fifty (33)
mi – my (33)
tú - you (32)
para - for (32)
grande - big (32)
número – number (32)
adiós - goodbye (31)
tardes - afternoons (30)
días - days (30)
vez - time (30)
cuarenta - forty (30)
al - to the (30)
dos – two (29)
zumo – juice (29)
tienes - you have (29)
ocho – eight (28)
naranja - orange (28)
otra - another (27)
momento – moment (27)
ésta - this one (27)
animal - animal (26)
están – they are (26)
siete – seven (26)
algo – something (26)
bueno - good (25)
quién – who (25)
once – eleven (24)
diez - ten (24)
quiero - I want (23)
puede – he can / she can / it can (22)
favor - favour (22)
pasa – it happens (22)
éste – this one (22)
esta – this (22)
seis – six (21)
quieres – you want (20)
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Oh, hey, I hadn't thought of that but that actually does make more sense than just getting a certain number of words, we should spend more time focusing on common words. Thanks! This gives me a better idea of where to go from here and about when to start thinking about reading.

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I think if you got a basic French reader you would have the basic vocabulary necessary for the words found in well, the basic French reader. ;). If the goal is just teaching reading I don't see why it wouldn't work.

 

We used L'imagerie de la lecture and liked it. But DS's first language is French; I don't know if it would be more challenging if it had not been. Do you read a lot in French?

 

Oh, and FYI, once they learn to read in French you won't really need to teach them to read in English - the skill transfers. :)

 

I do wonder if it might be frustrating for them, however, to learn to read in a language that is not strong. I mean, they might be able to decipher words, but what good does that do them when they pick up a book and don't recognize many of the words they have deciphered?

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Interesting idea!

 

I have been working with my 3rd (now 4th) graders to read in Spanish. It has been nice to work on it now that we have enough language skills to have rabbit-trail conversations in Spanish. For instance, if they don't know a word, I prefer to give them a description or synonym in Spanish. If your library has a collection of board books, though, that might be a good place to start. I have had difficulty finding teaching resources for young Spanish learners that approach the language systematically. Since most people here learn it as older, conversational learners, that is how most of the teaching materials are set-up. Perhaps you will have better luck with French?

 

Regardless of whether you are teaching then to read in French, definitely read to them in French!

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I have had difficulty finding teaching resources for young Spanish learners that approach the language systematically. Since most people here learn it as older, conversational learners, that is how most of the teaching materials are set-up.

You might try the Larousse series (though I am not sure where they are available in the US). The books are quite good and geared toward native speakers, not language learners, so maybe more what you have in mind. If your children aren't native speakers you could just go with a lower level.

 

http://www.larousse.com.mx/Producto/VerDetalle/828

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I do wonder if it might be frustrating for them, however, to learn to read in a language that is not strong. I mean, they might be able to decipher words, but what good does that do them when they pick up a book and don't recognize many of the words they have deciphered?

 

That would probably be why DH thinks it's a good idea for us to know more before we teach them to read, lol, understanding what you're reading is pretty important! ;)

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That would probably be why DH thinks it's a good idea for us to know more before we teach them to read, lol, understanding what you're reading is pretty important! ;)

Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that you want your children to be bilingual, I just question the wisdom of teaching them to read in a language in which they are not proficient. It seems a little like putting the cart before the horse. There must be research somewhere on teaching children to read in a language that they dont speak well - maybe in ESL literature? But in those situations the children would also be in immersion with English as the dominant language...

 

Eta I don't know if this will be helpful to you at all but maybe! It doesn't address reading, but how to encourage bilingualism. :)

http://naitreetgrandir.com/fr/etape/1_3_ans/langage/fiche.aspx?doc=ik-naitre-grandir-parole-langage-enfant-apprentissage-plusieurs-langue-bilinguisme

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I would work on your own comprehension pretty hard before trying to teach how to read in French. I'd make sure your accent was good as well and as said above, you could have even simple conversations about the text. I took enjoy playing guessing games where I say a  word to my daughter in a foreign language, and then have her guess what it is by my describing it. She doesn't have to understand all the words I'm saying, but eventually I will describe it in a way that she will get it. Pantomiming sure helps :)

 

FYI - my DD learned English first, but she was starting to sound out some Spanish within 6 months of learning to read in English. It wasn't too far behind. If she's interested in learning to read I wouldn't hold her back just because you're waiting to work on your French.

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You might try the Larousse series (though I am not sure where they are available in the US). The books are quite good and geared toward native speakers, not language learners, so maybe more what you have in mind. If your children aren't native speakers you could just go with a lower level.

 

http://www.larousse.com.mx/Producto/VerDetalle/828

Thank you! I look forward to deeper investigation of their offerings. You are correct that despite not truly being fluent (where is that line, anyway?) I need native speaker materials to really teach some topics, and to facilitate wider discussion in Spanish in our homeschool. Plus, a variety of materials over the course of the week keeps the murmurs of rebellion at bay.

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I agree with most of what has already been said. I'll just add that we started teaching my oldest to read in German first, thinking that it's so much more phonetic and would be much easier. His English was just so much stronger than his German (even though I suspect he's been "fluent" for a year or two already), that it was really hard. Not only was it difficult, in general, but we ran across two other barriers that I didn't foresee: (1) He *wanted* to learn to read English first, because all his friends were, and (2) German doesn't have the equivalent of our "first readers." Because Germans are usually taught to read in school, and because it's really phonetic and easy, their "first readers" are simple chapter books, which was way daunting to my then 4-year old. I wonder if French is the same way? If so, I'd definitely reconsider. As it is, I think reading for kids should be more about understanding "which" word is on the page (ie, the should already know the word and its meaning in most cases) than about reading a new word and figuring out what it means as well.

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I taught DC to read French after their English reading was somewhat sure. Personally, I think English is harder to teach because letter sounds are not always the same or even consistent--so many exceptions to remember. French, although it has spelling oddities too, is much more regular. Teaching French reading was incredibly fast and easy, by comparison. English reading was ok, but I was often stumped by "why" questions, like "why are though, cough, and through different?"

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I would advise starting with whatever language more reading naturally happens, which I asume would be English for you, especially if you are not fluent in French. In our case it was English, even though we did plenty of reading in Spanish too. Once reading in one language is established, reading in the second will follow too.

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I have had difficulty finding teaching resources for young Spanish learners that approach the language systematically. Since most people here learn it as older, conversational learners, that is how most of the teaching materials are set-up. Perhaps you will have better luck with French?

 

Regardless of whether you are teaching then to read in French, definitely read to them in French!

Don't want to hijack, but there are resources in Spanish that are geared to native speakers. Trillas is a Mexican publishing house, and books can be purchased off Amazon. I have Juguemos a Leer. La Pata Pita and La Pata Pita Vuelve are Spanish readers from Cuba. And as difficult as they sometimes are, Santillana USA has the most comprehensive quantity of products for native Spanish speakers in many subjects. Funny enough, when oldest was young, I used Hampton-Brown. Scholastic book club also has leveled readers. But, yes, now there are many Spanish readers available, many on Amazon, a lot more than when I first started 11 years ago (I started out with index cards, a marker, and a list of what order to introduce syllables!).

 

To answer OP: it's hard to say. Using K level French materials will still have some words that are assumed most children know and yours don't. But, if they are set up like English, the pictures are there as clues to what the text says. Dual immersion classes work in a way that English and minority language are together, they learn to read the minority language first. Going in that direction would require you to speak more French in the home.

 

My daughters are 11 years apart in age. My oldest was stronger in Spanish, so it was easy to see to teach Spanish reading first. My youngest is 3.5 and English is her stronger spoken language, but she understands everything in Spanish. It was a bit harder to decide, but I will be teaching Spanish first with her as well. She asks if she doesn't understand something, and I explain it in simpler terms-- still in Spanish. That is how I learned- no translation (Spanish is my second language and I learned as an adult).

 

Whichever you decide, reading skills transfer. There is nothing wrong with teaching English first, then introducing French. I considered doing this with my youngest. What tipped the balance is she's in a bilingual household, she understands most of it even if not speaking all, and she's interested. (Right now I'm mostly giving consonant sounds when she asks, and Spanish vowel sounds.) I think you could do vice versa as well with simple French readers with lots of pictures.

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Actually, I would just teach them to read English. The French will follow naturally (if they are fluent in speaking it). Both my sons are bilingual (German/English). For my older son learning to read in either language was a bit of a struggle. However, I think that was due to a bit of dyslexia (or some other undiagnosed condition) so I don't think that is typical. My younger son learned to read German in school and was pretty much able to read English at that point too. Now I realize that doesn't make any sense as letter sounds are quite different (of course the letters are the same etc. but it would be similar to French/English) and English is far trickier (in general in German letters always have the same sound) but it really is like that. I too wondered which language to first teach reading in etc. but now believe it is sufficient to teach reading in the stronger language (or the easier one as far as reading is concerned). Once the child knows how to read in general the second language will be fairly easy. My nine year old (and his older brother) can easily read Harry Potter etc even though I never once "taught" him reading in English (well I do occasionally correct and/or help). So I would just concentrate on reading in English and speaking French.

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If you teach them to read in English first, you could still do some sight words in French, like by labeling things around the house, etc.  You could even label them in French and English.  I would probably see that they have a good start on speaking French before going too much into reading, though, like maybe a basic conversational fluency, whatever that would be for a 5 year old.

 

There are definitely plenty of books for very young kids available in French, so I don't think that finding early readers would be a problem at all.  If you look on amazon canada, they have a section where you can search for "livres en français" and you can find some board books as a good start:

 

http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dfrench-books&field-keywords=board+books

 

My library has some children's books in French, at a variety of levels, and they have purchased books in French when we requested them.

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This looks like a good collection for the ages of your kiddos:

 

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1443108189/ref=pd_luc_sbs_03_03_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

Actually, it looks like there are also a lot of children's books in French on the US amazon site too, so if you are in the US, the shipping would be cheaper!

 

For example:

http://www.amazon.com/Poisson-Un-Deux-Rouge-Bleu/dp/1612430295/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412909215&sr=8-1&keywords=children%27s+books+in+french

 

 

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We used audio versions of children's books (read-along, you know -- beep, turn the page) to teach our kids to read German and French very early, though they were already reading in English.  This way they were hearing the words pronounced by native speakers.  We also used a lot of comic books -- Tintin and Asterix mostly.  We had all the Tintin cartoons on video in French, so the kids watched them and knew the stories and were very motivated to learn to read the books.

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Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that you want your children to be bilingual, I just question the wisdom of teaching them to read in a language in which they are not proficient. It seems a little like putting the cart before the horse. 

 

It seems to me that ALL school foreign language programs do this (except Waldorf, which delays reading  for everything).

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It seems to me that ALL school foreign language programs do this (except Waldorf, which delays reading  for everything).

 

But generally the children already have learned to read in their native language. It is kind of strange but at least with my son reading English (which he does speak fluently) came on its own once he learned to read German in school - even though some of the sounds are quite different and in my opinion reading English is much easier. So children who have already been reading for a couple of years will probably have a much easier time learning to read in a foreign language (even if they do not speak it well yet) than kids who are just starting with reading. I guess the basic process (letters have sounds, you go from left to right etc.) are the same.

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It seems to me that ALL school foreign language programs do this (except Waldorf, which delays reading  for everything).

 

Yes, but I think this is different because the children do not already know how to read.  I posted a link earlier that points out difficulties encountered by children when learning to first read in a language that is not their own. 

 

When I was younger I visited my brother who was living in a Russian speaking country and he taught me the alphabet. It was fun sounding out words (though not for my brother, who had to wait for me while I tried my new skill on every sign I encountered), but most of the time I had no idea what the words I sounded out meant, so after a while I stopped bothering. To my mind, it would likewise be an exercise in frustration  for a child to learn to read in a language in which he or she was not already proficient or at least fully immersed.  I didn't want to go out and read and read and read the way a child does when he first learns to decode his own language and I can't imagine a small child would either.  For me, it doesn't seem like a good way to promote a love of reading.  But of course, the OP's children are not mine and so if it works for her family, more power to her.   :)

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Don't want to hijack, but there are resources in Spanish that are geared to native speakers. Trillas is a Mexican publishing house, and books can be purchased off Amazon. I have Juguemos a Leer. La Pata Pita and La Pata Pita Vuelve are Spanish readers from Cuba. And as difficult as they sometimes are, Santillana USA has the most comprehensive quantity of products for native Spanish speakers in many subjects.

I agree, I have used Juguemos A Leer with all for of my children. I also used Mi Libro Magico (purple cover).

 

Op, Spanish is not my bative language, but we are a bilingual house hold. I am a herritage speaker that rarely used Spanish until eleventh grade and very hard to increase my Spanish skills. I suggest you begin immersing your family in French, if you really want to do this. All movies, TV, and even music in French. Get children's audio books in french from your library, craigslist, freecycle, any where. After you have done this for at least six months, then decide. Give yourself time to really prepare and make an educated decision. If you and your dh can take a class, that would also be fantastic. There are free resources on line and listed on the boards. Really start googling around.

 

Good luck to you.

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Thanks for your input!
 

I hadn't thought about her reading books beyond the first readers and board books so bringing up context and cultural cues was very good information for reading down the road! I did find My Little Pony books (60+ pages) on amazon so if we do decide to teach her to read in French first those will definitely be on her reading list, she understands pony culture! ;)

 

Right now we are going over new vocabulary everyday, both by saying the individual words and repeating them in sentences. We listen to one lesson on the Learning French With Alexa audibles, learn french nursery rhymes and songs, watch Little Pim, watch a cartoon in french (Tchoupi, Peppa Pig, Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, etc), use our learned french words as much as we can throughout the day. I am working my way through Duolingo. If we do teach them to read in French first it wont be for a while, at least 4 months, and by then we'll hopefully have a few hundred words under our belts, and be able to understand at least 80% of any given french cartoon they watch. But we'll definitely reevaluate when the time comes to make sure it's a good fit or not.

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  • 2 months later...

I am coming a little late to this discussion, but better late than never. 

 

My wife and I are native speakers of English, but both speak German reasonable well. So we taught our daughter German beginning at about 18 months, and she became quite fluent. We decided to teach her to read in English first on the theory that English is harder to read (we used a pure phonetic approach--Ordinary Parent's Guide to Teaching Reading) when she was just over 4. We spent about a year. Then a couple months after finishing OPGTR, we began introducing German, also using a phonetic system. It went very quickly since she already grasped the concept to blending the sounds of the written letters together to make words, especially since written German is very phonetic. 

 

I would discourage a sight-word approach, especially in a language in which the child is not yet reasonable competent. I would go ahead and teach English (phonetically) and focus on oral use of the foreign language. Of course, as the child reads English, he may begin to sound out the foreign language words that he sees in books, which would be great. As the child gets order, I would think it would be relatively easy to transition to reading the foreign language when he knows a higher percentage of the words in the text. 

 

For the foreign language, I suggest as many CDs (both songs and stories) as possible--we spent a lot of time driving so that was easy for us. Since, like you, we were not native speakers of the foreign language, we tried to say it in that language if possible, and if not then we used English. We tried not to mix within a sentence, but within a conversation, we mixed a lot. I would also recommend trying to link up with any French speaking families you can find. And make learning French as fun as possible. I started a play group with the German families that I glommed onto and bought special toys (a small bounce house, a parachute, etc.) that we really only used at the play group. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

You really want to be clear on your French goals when you choose materials.

I am continually amazed at the level of discrimination between European and Québec French speakers.
Where you plan on using it and what kind of immersion experiences and whatever else you will be looking at down the road should be a major factor in your choice between the two significantly different dialects.


 

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We are thinking of teaching the kids to read French first then move on to reading in English later. 

 

Not to mess up your plans, but might it not be easier to teach a language in which the pronunciation exactly matches the written word first, such as spanish?

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These are the resources we use for teaching French reading. They are available at amazon.fr. (The post said not to post anything from the internet - does that include links? Let me know and I'll remove them.) 

 

Ma Methode Lecture Syllablique - http://www.amazon.fr/Ma-méthode-lecture-syllabique-apprendre/dp/2218949083

 

Mon Premier Dictionnaire Illustre - http://www.amazon.fr/Bescherelle-Mon-premier-dictionnaire-illustré/dp/2218952351/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1421826830&sr=1-2&keywords=mon+premier+dictionnaire+illustre

 

Cahier Lecture Pour Apprendre Lire - http://www.amazon.fr/cahier-lecture-pour-apprendre-lire/dp/2218949105/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1421826867&sr=1-12&keywords=cahier+méthode+syllabique

 

We introduced English reading first at 4yo (A Beka), then started French reading in K. My husband is a French learner (university level), and I hardly speak any at all. He speaks French with them every other day, but I'm doing much of the reading instruction. We use the dictionary all together ages 5 and 3. My husband pronounces the word and we all learn it together. 

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