Public Domain Books Written in Other Countries After 1923?

[Hunter]

There must be post-1923 public domain books that were both WRITTEN and are now hosted in other countries, that are legal for Americans to download? The MIckey Mouse laws don't apply to books that were NOT written in the USA(or any country with similar or stricter laws), right?

 

So, post-1923 Australian written books that are hosted on Australian sites are legal for those in the USA to download? We just cannot download post-1923 American and UK books from Australian and Indian sites?

[Orthodox6]

I remember that the Australian site for Gutenberg is clear about what may/may not be downloaded in other countries.  Would have to go look it up again.  (I don't consider these "Mickey Mouse" laws, but normal publication rules.)

[Hunter]

I remember that the Australian site for Gutenberg is clear about what may/may not be downloaded in other countries.  Would have to go look it up again.  (I don't consider these "Mickey Mouse" laws, but normal publication rules.)

 

My understanding is that the main reason USA laws changed was because of a push from Disney to keep Mickey Mouse copyrighted. Am I woefully uninformed?

[Orthodox6]

My error. I thought you were using "Mickey Mouse" in the common derisive sense. I had not heard that about the Disney Corporation, and shall try to learn more. I'm sorry that I misunderstood you.

[Laura Corin]

UK copyright runs until 70 years after the death of the author.  So you could find some from that date.... but not that many.  Brave New World, for example (1930s) won't be public domain for another sixteen years because the author lived long.

 

L

[Hunter]

My error. I thought you were using "Mickey Mouse" in the common derisive sense. I had not heard that about the Disney Corporation, and shall try to learn more. I'm sorry that I misunderstood you.

 

I'm trying to do some more research myself. It's hard to keep up with everything. Sometimes people here are passionate about a subject and can quickly fill me in.

 

It's not uncommon to hear of the newest USA restrictions, that are now being extended to other nations, as the "Micky Mouse Laws" because of Disney's involvement.

 

I found the Dave Dawson novels about WW2 even on the USA Gutenberg site :-) That was a happy surprise. 

http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/World_War_II_(Bookshelf)

 

So, post-1923 Australian written books that are hosted on Australian sites are legal for those in the USA to download? We just cannot download post-1923 American and UK books from Australian and Indian sites?

 

I'm not a lawyer, but my guess is that the above is not correct.  What country the materials are hosted in probably doesn't matter.  Works which are out of copyright in Australia, and thus kosher for people living there to freely copy, may not be out of copyright in more restrictive countries like the US.

[Laura Corin]

I'm not a lawyer, but my guess is that the above is not correct.  What country the materials are hosted in probably doesn't matter.  Works which are out of copyright in Australia, and thus kosher for people living there to freely copy, may not be out of copyright in more restrictive countries like the US.

 

It also might be nice to go with the spirit of the laws of the individual countries, rather than trying to find ways around them, and let the authors and their descendants make a little money from their artistic endeavours.

 

L

[horsellian]

It also might be nice to go with the spirit of the laws of the individual countries, rather than trying to find ways around them, and let the authors and their descendants make a little money from their artistic endeavours.

 

I agree if works are in print.  But I think since US copyright is going to be extended again, and again ad nauseam (thanks to Disney et al), then so much interesting but no longer profitable work will be lost because it will go out of print; things that went out of print 50+ years ago are highly unlikely to be reprinted, but will probably never come out of copyright.  I'm also not sure how much right great-great-grandchildren should really have to profit from their ancestors work!

[Laura Corin]

I agree if works are in print.  But I think since US copyright is going to be extended again, and again ad nauseam (thanks to Disney et al), then so much interesting but no longer profitable work will be lost because it will go out of print; things that went out of print 50+ years ago are highly unlikely to be reprinted, but will probably never come out of copyright.  I'm also not sure how much right great-great-grandchildren should really have to profit from their ancestors work!

 

I can see that.  I was referring the the UK 70 year rule.

 

L

[Hunter]

It also might be nice to go with the spirit of the laws of the individual countries, rather than trying to find ways around them, and let the authors and their descendants make a little money from their artistic endeavours.

 

L

 

You misunderstand my question. I'm not trying to cheat anyone, or find ways around laws. I'm just looking for books that ARE public domain, that I might not know about.

[Laura Corin]

You misunderstand my question. I'm not trying to cheat anyone, or find ways around laws. I'm just looking for books that ARE public domain, that I might not know about.

 

Sorry if I misunderstood.  I'm a bit stung by the number of people who think it's fine to poach UK TV shows from overseas, so I'm a bit touchy.

 

L

[Hunter]

I'm not a lawyer, but my guess is that the above is not correct.  What country the materials are hosted in probably doesn't matter.  Works which are out of copyright in Australia, and thus kosher for people living there to freely copy, may not be out of copyright in more restrictive countries like the US.

 

Who holds the copyright on books written in the host country that have been declared public domain by themselves? Does another country get to profit off the host country's property? Are the USA and the UK that powerful?

[Hunter]

Sorry if I misunderstood.  I'm a bit stung by the number of people who think it's fine to poach UK TV shows from overseas, so I'm a bit touchy.

 

L

 

I'm not talking about anything like this. I'm just looking for some 1930's-1950's historical fiction, that was written overseas and not in the UK or the USA. Books that the host country has willingly made public domain.

Who holds the copyright on books written in the host country that have been declared public domain by them? Does another country get to profit off the host country's property? Is the USA and the UK that powerful?

 

 

How about a tangible example?

 

I publish a book in the UK and the US at roughly the same time. I'm so shocked by my success that I immediately die.  Assuming I didn't give ownership of my copyright to my publisher, my heirs own these copyrights.  They continue to receive any royalties from publishing that work.  70 years after my death, the work goes out of copyright in the UK, and anyone can use it in the UK without negotiating any payments.  However, it is still covered by copyright in the US.  Any publication or sales there still needs to be negotiated with the current copyright holders, whoever they may be.  Note that the country where I lived or died, and where my heirs live probably doesn't matter at all.

 

Again, I'm not a lawyer, I could have this completely wrong, but this is my understanding.

[Hunter]

Okay, so you are saying that sometimes books are published in more than one country at a time. I get that. Thank you for pointing that out. I appreciate that very much. I really want to understand this.

 

But, I'm sure there are some not-so-important children's novels published just in the host country, and not also in the USA and the UK. I'm particularly looking for some historical fiction novels about the Great Depression and WW2 featuring the lives of Australian or Indian children.

[lewelma]

Hunter, I found this press release that might be of use to you.  I have not looked at the website or the organisation but it might be a starting place.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

New Zealand Children's Books Part of International Children's Digital Library

 

The National Library of New Zealand Te Puna MÄtauranga o Aotearoa has ensured children all over
the world can read books by New Zealand writers by contributing to an innovative international digital
library.

 

In August 2002 the National Library answered an urgent call from the organisers of the International
Children’s Digital Library (ICDL) to digitise some out of copyright New Zealand children’s books
already in the public domain for the November 2002 launch of their online project. The ICDL
(www.icdlbooks.org) aims to encourage children aged 3 to 13 to explore different cultures by making
digital versions of books from all over the world available online. While the website’s primary
audience is children, it also forms a valuable resource for scholars and researchers in the area of
children’s literature.

[Hunter]

Hunter, I found this press release that might be of use to you.  I have not looked at the website or the organisation but it might be a starting place.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

New Zealand Children's Books Part of International Children's Digital Library

 

The National Library of New Zealand Te Puna MÄtauranga o Aotearoa has ensured children all over

the world can read books by New Zealand writers by contributing to an innovative international digital

library.

 

In August 2002 the National Library answered an urgent call from the organisers of the International

Children’s Digital Library (ICDL) to digitise some out of copyright New Zealand children’s books

already in the public domain for the November 2002 launch of their online project. The ICDL

(www.icdlbooks.org) aims to encourage children aged 3 to 13 to explore different cultures by making

digital versions of books from all over the world available online. While the website’s primary

audience is children, it also forms a valuable resource for scholars and researchers in the area of

children’s literature.

 

Yes, this is the type of thing I am looking for. I'm not trying to steal. I'm trying to access what the host countries want to be distributed to children in the USA.

 

This site is only for reading online, right? There are no downloads?

[lewelma]

Yes, this is the type of thing I am looking for. I'm not trying to steal. I'm trying to access what the host countries want to be distributed to children in the USA.

 

This site is only for reading online, right? There are no downloads?

 

No idea. Just thought it sounded like the kind of stuff you are looking for, and wanted you to know that there are organizations out there that are trying to organize and digitize public domain materials.

[Hunter]

No idea. Just thought it sounded like the kind of stuff you are looking for, and wanted you to know that there are organizations out there that are trying to organize and digitize public domain materials.

 

I am no expert in all this. I hear bits and pieces, that I may or may not be putting together correctly. But there seems to be some international effort to make up for what the USA is doing, by other countries doing what they can with their OWN books. And I pick up on some real resentment from other countries at the pressure being exerted on them to rewrite their own laws.

 

I found a couple cute books. Not what I was looking for, but cute all the same. The Sunbonnet Babies in Italy. http://books.google.com/books?id=eZpUAAAAYAAJ&dq=sunbonnet+babies+in+italy&source=gbs_navlinks_s I want to add that to my ancient Rome studies. It's okay that Italy isn't like that anymore. It was when the Sunbonnet Babies visited it, and that is good enough to make a great story, that is not devoid of useful information.

 

Is Dot and the Kangaroo any good?

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18891

 

I'd really like to find some 20th century books for year 4, though.

[rose]

I'm a big public domain fan boy. I've added a few books to Project Gutenberg US and couple to Project Gutenberg Canada. My understanding has been that what is public domain in Canada and hosted in Canada is still copyrighted in the US. For example, a few years ago I put Little House in the Big Woods onto PG-Can. If you download it to a US computer you will now have a copy of the book that you did not pay for. This is exactly what the laws are trying to prohibit. They need to do this because there are some clever hosting companies that run outside of any national law (google Principality of Sealand, if you're curious) that are willing to host any copyrighted material you wish. Imagine if downloading from these companies was legal. The laws would be completely useless because there would be no way to prove where an item was downloaded from. Was it from a US host, Canadian host or the Principality of Sealand?  The authorities make it easy for you. If you have copy that wasn't paid for and it's under copyright then it's contraband.

[Deee]

For an Australian author's work to be out of copyright they must have died before 1955. From the Adelaide Uni site:

 

Under Australian copyright law, and the Free Trade agreement wth the USA, copyright has expired in published works of authors who died before 1955. (Authors who died after 1954 will retain copyright for 70 years after their death.) These works are now within the "public domain" in Australia and this is why the University is able to reproduce such works on this site. However, works may still be copyright in other countries. If copyright in the work still exists in the country from which you are accessing this website, it may be illegal for you to download the work. It is your responsibility to check the applicable copyright laws in your country.

 

I'm running through lists of authors in my head, but all of them died more recently (we are a relatively young nation). Some great Aussie authors who won't make your list are Ivan Southall, Colin Thiele and Ruth Park. These would be my pick for insights into Australian life up to 1990. You will be able to access a couple of our legendary yarn spinners, Banjo Paterson and Henry Lawson. Both are known for their short stories and poems, and their very different depictions of the bush. I'll try to think up some more long-dead authors....

D

[Deee]

Try We of the Never Never (its on Gutenberg)

Also CJ Dennis and Dorothy Wall. Wall is for young kids, Dennis wrote great poems and The Sentimental Bloke, which I wouldn't use till high school.

[Deee]

BTW, the change to our copyright laws is fairly recent (used to be public domain 50 years after author's death). The 70 year cutoff happened because of our free trade agreement with the US

D

[rose]

One misconception is that I'm noticing on this thread is the idea that the author in question needs to have published the book within the country in question. Above I mentioned that I uploaded Little House in the Big Woods to PG-Canada. The books were published within the US and are still under copyright there but because Laura Ingalls Wilder died more than 50 years ago the books are in the public domain in Canada. At least in Canada and US the country of publication is irrelevant.

 

Here's a little public domain trivia for you:

Did you know that the KJV bible is still under copyright in the UK. There's a special rule for it under UK law and it will never enter the public domain there until the law changes. Weird, isn't it?

[Hunter]

Little House in the Big Woods was written in the USA, right? I'm not talking about USA books, being hosted overseas. I'm talking about FOREIGN authors being hosted in their OWN countries that did not contract with a USA publisher as well.

 

I'm very aware of the KJV Bible being copyrighted in the UK. It is something that really upsets me. It makes a lot of curricula illegal to sell in the UK. Of all the things to insist on holding a copyright on, that one is inexcusable. The USA gets all arrogant about other countries not following our lead and changing their laws, but doesn't recognize the UK's right to the KJV. Not that I want to see the KJV copyrighted here, too, but I don't think we should be able to pick and choose what suits us without being equal about it.

 

Powerful people who are overly restrictive with copyrights is just as inexcusable as the people who steal copyrighted books. 

[Hunter]

Try We of the Never Never (its on Gutenberg)

Also CJ Dennis and Dorothy Wall. Wall is for young kids, Dennis wrote great poems and The Sentimental Bloke, which I wouldn't use till high school.

 

I think I'm going to like Blink Bill! Thanks! 

 

I'm checking out the other authors, too.

[Hunter]

BTW, the change to our copyright laws is fairly recent (used to be public domain 50 years after author's death). The 70 year cutoff happened because of our free trade agreement with the US

D

 

I just tried to google more about "free trade" and "copyright" but, it's making my head swim. I'm too tired to try and understand it.

[Hunter]

It's like a disease. Now South Korea has to match Australia?

http://www.zdnet.com/south-korea-extends-copyright-as-part-of-australian-free-trade-deal-7000026400/

 

Curse the creators of Micky Mouse!

[rose]

Little House in the Big Woods was written in the USA, right? I'm not talking about USA books, being hosted overseas. I'm talking about FOREIGN authors being hosted in their OWN countries that did not contract with a USA publisher as well.

I see what you're saying. It's my understanding that such books would still be copyrighted in the US. You can confirm this by asking on the Project Gutenberg distributed proofreaders forum here: http://www.pgdp.net/c/ . You'll need a login but these people are the copyright experts. They also have a thread in their forum where you can request that they produce good PG quality versions of any book that you wish. It will take awhile but they'll probably do it. :)

I'm very aware of the KJV Bible being copyrighted in the UK. It is something that really upsets me. It makes a lot of curricula illegal to sell in the UK. Of all the things to insist on holding a copyright on, that one is inexcusable. The USA gets all arrogant about other countries not following our lead and changing their laws, but doesn't recognize the UK's right to the KJV. Not that I want to see the KJV copyrighted here, too, but I don't think we should be able to pick and choose what suits us without being equal about it.

 

Powerful people who are overly restrictive with copyrights is just as inexcusable as the people who steal copyrighted books.

I totally agree. I didn't realize the curriculum issue. That is completely ridiculous. I like what St. Paul had to say: "For we are not as so many, peddling the word of God." (World English Bible - a completely copyright free version)

[stripe]

Sorry if I misunderstood. I'm a bit stung by the number of people who think it's fine to poach UK TV shows from overseas, so I'm a bit touchy.

 

Not me! I've bought directly from the UK and subscribe to Acorn TV. ;)

 

I read an article about Maj Sjöwall, the surviving member of a duo that co-wrote mystery novels/ social commentary in the 1960s. Their books have never gone out of print in Sweden and thus are still subject to their original contract, which gave them very small royalties. Only the translations have different contracts.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2009/nov/22/crime-thriller-maj-sjowall-sweden

 

I was surprised to see It's Like This, Cat (1964) on Gutenberg.

[Deee]

I forgot "The Magic Pudding"!!! It was published in 1918. Its fabulous. Quite mad and and very funny. Good from about age 8 as a read aloud. Its on Gutenberg. You could team it with a study of Lindsay's poetry and art (he did the illustrations, too) but be careful of his adult art: its full of beautiful, voluptuous women and is a bit risque. He was part of Sydney's bohemian set. Very influential.

D

[Hunter]

Stripe and Deee, thank you!

[stripe]

I forgot "The Magic Pudding"!!! It was published in 1918. Its fabulous. Quite mad and and very funny.

It was reprinted by the New York Review of Books, which has reprinted a lot of quirky mid-20th century children's books with good paper and nice bindings. Some of the books they chose are more readily available in the UK from other publishers than they were in the US.

 

And (surprise, surprise) I may as we'll mention that their edition of Magic Pudding edited out some antisemetic comment in the poem, or something.

 

http://www.nybooks.com/books/imprints/childrens/the-magic-pudding/ ... You can also browse around their other books here

 

It's also on Gutenberg at http://www.gutenberg.org/files/23625/23625-h/23625-h.htm

 

{begin somewhat off topic section}

Another publisher who's reprinted older and interesting books is Jane Nissen. I believe Moira said a few years ago that she bought everything they published. I have her edition of a couple books ; they are nice quality paperbacks with appealing colors and good sized print.

http://www.jnbs.talktalk.net/Titles.htm

I have the Cuckoo Clock by Mrs Molesworth, which is in the public domain. Here is an article about Mrs Molesworth

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/dec/21/featuresreviews.guardianreview18

And a less than stellar review ;) http://bathbookgroup.blogspot.com/2013/04/april-2013-mrs-molesworths-cuckoo-clock.html

I thought it was somewhere between stellar and boring, and it did feature nodding Mandarins. Which took explaining as my kids thought that meant oranges.

I also picked up The Carved Lions by Mrs M at a library book sale, and my daughter read it and said it was okay. An older edition, not the Jane Nissen. Anyway, I also have Bunchy in Jane Nissen ed., by Joyce Lankester Brisley, the author of the Milly Molly Mandy books. It's quite short and quite cute. I would say it's a bit younger than the age range 8-14 from the Jane Nissen site. Maybe 5-9. I have a couple others, or I tracked down less expensive, older editions of some others. Some are in the public domain but several are just older.

[Hunter]

Stripe, thank you, as always, for your perspective on vintage books. My perspective is slightly different than yours, but I strongly rely on your reviews, before making choices, maybe more than anyone else's. There are few other people that share my combined disgust AND fascination with these books.

 

I'm really hoping we can come up with a few more titles of post 1923 fiction, even if it's twaddle. Twaddle sometimes gives an excellent window into an age. Many of us adults don't realize how alien the 20th century is to younger people. And many adults know nothing of the 20th century in other countries.

 

Harshly defined limits fascinate me. And I know they also fascinate some others here. What is available for children's and young adult public domain novels from after 1923? It's questions like this that uncover treasures that never would have been unburied, without the imposition of a limit. Without new limits, we just keep doing what we have been doing for better and worse.

 

I know there is more out there. I just feel it. I just hope I don't cause as much harm as Christopher Columbus did, with my quests of discovery :lol:

[rose]

I'm really excited to see what you come up with. Thanks for putting so much work into this project. I think that while spelling out a curriculum with prescribed books for each year I think that it would also be great to have some alternatives provided with a summary of their strengths and weaknesses. Really, I'm longing to see a site put together where people can review and catalog  public domain works, especially ones for children, so that I can know what the book is about rather than having to read it myself.

[Deee]

Hunter, have you looked into openlibrary.org? I'm not sure how it works in the US, but we seem to be able to access ebooks via DAISY. You can request the ebook and wait your turn in a queue until the previous borrow checks it back in (I assume they have limited licensing and that this gets around copyright). It may help solve the 20th century problem. They have Ruth Park's wonderful novels Playing Beattie Bow (set in both 1970's Sydney and 1870's Sydney), good from ages 11 and up, and The Harp in the South Trilogy, set in one of Sydney's poorest suburbs in 1950's or so. We studied it in year 9 - its really superb.
D

[Deee]

Open library have Ivan Southall (beautifully written, 12 and up), and Morris Gleiztman and Paul Jennings (twaddle but fun for 8-10ish). BUT best of all, they have Michael Morpurgo, the fabulous UK children's author. Lots of them!!!!! I hope this works for your side of the pond

D

[stripe]

Stripe, thank you, as always, for your perspective on vintage books. My perspective is slightly different than yours, but I strongly rely on your reviews, before making choices, maybe more than anyone else's. There are few other people that share my combined disgust AND fascination with these books.

 

Thanks, Hunter.

 

I am always exasperated by the (frighteningly regular) appearances of off-the-cuff racist comments in old children's books. At this point, I just mention it on here because I may as well live up to my reputation. (Just saw some ugly little "natives" capturing elephants in a cute little book of animal stories this morning -- aaaagh!)

 

One thing... the "nodding mandarins" business (in The Cuckoo Clock) was exoticism: they were knickknacks come to life so were never real people to begin with. They remain utterly flat characters. There is nothing offensive said about them, though, that I recall; it was just kind of weird. And as I said, my kids only call oranges "mandarins." Mrs Molesworth is not quite top notch literature, but if you're looking for an adventure book, maybe it's useful. Not life changing, though.

 

If you get the chance, check out the NYReview of Books' children's reprints. They are all sort of strange and interesting. Jane Nissen's books may be harder, but maybe search for any that sound interesting and you may find the original edition.

[Hunter]

Hunter, have you looked into openlibrary.org? I'm not sure how it works in the US, but we seem to be able to access ebooks via DAISY. You can request the ebook and wait your turn in a queue until the previous borrow checks it back in (I assume they have limited licensing and that this gets around copyright). It may help solve the 20th century problem. They have Ruth Park's wonderful novels Playing Beattie Bow (set in both 1970's Sydney and 1870's Sydney), good from ages 11 and up, and The Harp in the South Trilogy, set in one of Sydney's poorest suburbs in 1950's or so. We studied it in year 9 - its really superb.

D

 

I need to re-look into this. Thanks for the reminder! I don't think I would use it for the core schedule, but it's another option as a supplement and for research/book reports.

[Hunter]

Thanks, Hunter.

 

I am always exasperated by the (frighteningly regular) appearances of off-the-cuff racist comments in old children's books. At this point, I just mention it on here because I may as well live up to my reputation. (Just saw some ugly little "natives" capturing elephants in a cute little book of animal stories this morning -- aaaagh!)

 

One thing... the "nodding mandarins" business (in The Cuckoo Clock) was exoticism: they were knickknacks come to life so were never real people to begin with. They remain utterly flat characters. There is nothing offensive said about them, though, that I recall; it was just kind of weird. And as I said, my kids only call oranges "mandarins." Mrs Molesworth is not quite top notch literature, but if you're looking for an adventure book, maybe it's useful. Not life changing, though.

 

If you get the chance, check out the NYReview of Books' children's reprints. They are all sort of strange and interesting. Jane Nissen's books may be harder, but maybe search for any that sound interesting and you may find the original edition.

 

I rely on your comments and warnings, and make choices partially based on them. They are not always my primary consideration, but they ALWAYS are considered. ALWAYS.