Would you punish for bad grades?

[Elisabet1]

I have never punished for bad grades in all my years of home schooling. But I have been seeing a lack of effort lately. And I know if my children were in public school and kept bringing home bad grades, just because they do not feel like trying, they would be punished. 

 

My son just turned in "corrections" to his math problems again that were 100% wrong. This is not the one I suspect LD on. This is the older one. I told him to take it back and actually do the work and turn in correct problems by 3pm or he would be grounded through Thursday. He turned it back in...all corrections 100% wrong. I offered many times to help him but he refused because he wanted to rush through it and not be bothered with me helping.

 

What do you think?

[Miss Mousie]

My knee-jerk response:  right now, I would have him sit with me and work the first two problems (I don't know how many he had to fix, but if it's more than, say, 3, I would only have him do the first two beside me) so I could make super-double-sure he understands the material. 

 

Once I had that assurance, either we'd both be calmer or we'd both be irate, lol.  If we were calm, I'd tell him he has another hour or so to finish the rest (or whatever is reasonable given the number of corrections to be made).  If we're irate, I think I might not have the energy to give him another chance to finish and then deal with checking again, so I might just drop it until tomorrow when we both have fresh eyes and minds.  And *before* we address the problems tomorrow, we would have a calm-but-firm talk.  Well, truth be told, I'd probably deliver "Lecture #431:  Effort Matters" and he'd probably ignore it again.  But there is hope!

 

I take it this is an ongoing problem.  I also take it the boy is a teenager.  I was just reading an old thread yesterday regarding motivational issues - I'll see if I can dig up a link.

 

ETA:  I found the link.  This thread addresses scheduling/to-do list problems, but the larger issue of punishment vs. reward is nicely explored.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/439924-punishment-or-rewards/

 

 

[Tanikit]

I would keep sending him back to do it til they were all right - no matter how long it took or until he asked for help.

[texasmama]

If my kids turned in math problem corrections that were 100% wrong, it would be due to them not understanding the concept.  This is not a punishable offense, and I would reteach the concept.  If the child refused my help, I would persist until the help was accepted, even if that meant the work was done the next day. 

 

Sometimes my boys get their pride involved in math, and this causes them to not want help.  This always works out in the end with them accepting my help, though, even if they have to struggle with this inside their own developing teen/tween brains. 

 

My almost 14 year old has the most difficulty accepting my help at this point.  I would not punish him, though, because I recognize that his refusal to accept help is actually a developmentally appropriate task, the attempt to be self-sufficient.  Kids don't develop in a neat and linear fashion, so I try to stay patient and understanding with this process and tolerate all but blatant disrespect, which gets a sharp response from me.

 

That is a roundabout answer, but as long as I see effort, I can work with that.  How old is the child in question?  My boys do not rush through things poorly just to move on to something fun because they are old enough and mature enough to realize the folly in this.  Dd (age 8) might do this, but I am at elbow with her math at this point so it is not really going to happen.

[73349]

I think I'd be sitting right there beside him watching him do every.single.math.problem until I could see that he was doing it right. And every time he did one wrong, I'd show him the right way again. No more "go and do it and bring it back." If he perceives that as a negative, so be it. Either I'd find the Right Way to Explain It to him or, if he was really being lazy, he'd realize Mom Is Not Playing and This Is Getting Old. I think we'd be all set by Thursday.

[PeterPan]

Well I guess I'm rogue, cuz when my day is going really badly I break out the chocolate or marshmallows and start feeding it.  Kid too hyper to focus?  The caffeine in the chocolate solves it.  Low blood sugar due to growth spurt or me forgetting to feed them?  Chocolate solves it.  He doesn't really understand the math?  Well no problem, now you can help him as you're shoveling chocolate into him, one chip/chunk for every step.  

 

So don't melt down.  Solve it with chocolate.  Or marshmallows.  Or do both as cocoa.  There's not much you can't solve with cocoa and hugs...

 

Or there's JW's steps to solving world crises: 1) you need a shower, 2) you need a nap, 3) you need a walk, 4) you need a sandwich.

 

But me, I just go straight for the chocolate.  :D 

 

 

 

[Elisabet1]

If my kids turned in math problem corrections that were 100% wrong, it would be due to them not understanding the concept.  This is not a punishable offense, and I would reteach the concept.  If the child refused my help, I would persist until the help was accepted, even if that meant the work was done the next day. 

 

Sometimes my boys get their pride involved in math, and this causes them to not want help.  This always works out in the end with them accepting my help, though, even if they have to struggle with this inside their own developing teen/tween brains. 

 

My almost 14 year old has the most difficulty accepting my help at this point.  I would not punish him, though, because I recognize that his refusal to accept help is actually a developmentally appropriate task, the attempt to be self-sufficient.  Kids don't develop in a neat and linear fashion, so I try to stay patient and understanding with this process and tolerate all but blatant disrespect, which gets a sharp response from me.

 

That is a roundabout answer, but as long as I see effort, I can work with that.  How old is the child in question?  My boys do not rush through things poorly just to move on to something fun because they are old enough and mature enough to realize the folly in this.  Dd (age 8) might do this, but I am at elbow with her math at this point so it is not really going to happen.

It is 3 problems incorrect. One..he just did not answer decline vs incline.  The other two..flipped the negative sign. I told him in both cases he flipped the negative sign and to correct it. He would not.

[PeterPan]

It is 3 problems incorrect. One..he just did not answer decline vs incline.  The other two..flipped the negative sign. I told him in both cases he flipped the negative sign and to correct it. He would not.

Have you thought about a little humor?  See me, I'd bring over the dog, tell the dc this math is so easy the DOG can do it, bust out a silly voice, and have the dog fix it.  I mean, seriously, if it's 4:45 and people are having meltdowns, it's time to cut your losses.

[Joker]

Is there a reason he has to correct it on paper if you've already given him the answers? I did a lot of corrections orally or on a whiteboard with my dds and didn't spend too much time making them redo stuff on their papers. As long as they understood what was going on, I was happy.

[EKS]

How old is this student?

 

It sounds to me as though it has nothing to do with understanding and everything to do with a power struggle.  

[redsquirrel]

First of all :grouphug:  to both of you.  These days happen and it is so difficult for everyone.

 

Take a deep breath and try to let it go. 

 

Now, I am not sure your kid would be 'punished' for a bad grade in school. I don't know his year in school (5th grade? Sounds like a 7th grader to me, lol) but the grade itself would be the 'punishment'. If he is young, like third or fourth grade there is a chance the teacher might keep him inside during recess to correct his work. If he still got it wrong, well, again, the grade is his punishment.

 

I say, try again tomorrow. Maybe redo the same math...or not. But instead of giving him three problems give him one at a time and require him to check his answers mathematically and prove his answer is correct before giving it to you. Once he has one question done, give him a second. If he doesn't know how to prove his answer correct then what a great time to learn, lol.

 

And yes, food, shower, sleep can often be the solutions to many difficulties.  When I complain about my early teen son to my friends who have older kids, or who are middle grade teachers all they say is 'Yup, that happens sometimes' so I think there are days like this.

[Julie of KY]

It is 3 problems incorrect. One..he just did not answer decline vs incline.  The other two..flipped the negative sign. I told him in both cases he flipped the negative sign and to correct it. He would not.

I'd sit with him and make sure he's getting the math correct.

 

IF is a refusal issue, then this is disobedience and very different than just not getting the problems correct.

 

When math is very frustrating and lots of problems are missed, I tend to say we'll sit and do a few problems together and then set it aside for the day and come back to it on a fresh day. I do make the child go back and correct it all typically.

[texasmama]

How old is this student?

 

It sounds to me as though it has nothing to do with understanding and everything to do with a power struggle.  

 

I agree.

 

 

[KrissiK]

My oldest has flunked every single test and quiz he's done in the past 2 weeks. And it's not like 59%. He got 28% on his grammar test. Good grief. Rod and Staff teaches the same things every single year. He's in 6th grade and it's the beginning of the school year! And he can't diagram a sentence skeleton? And I told him that if he gets less than 70% on any upcoming tests and quizzes he will not get screen time that day. For him it is a laziness issue. He's very smart, but does not apply himself. And he doesn't care. He really doesn't. He skips math problems because "they're too hard". I do make him re-do all his tests, everything he missed he has to correct.

[OneStepAtATime]

Hugs, OP.   I know you are frustrated.

 

FWIW, I do not punish for bad grades.  I work hard to repair the relationship if it is a relationship issue but I also work hard to determine if there are possible learning challenges that are causing the bad grades and possible bad attitude.  Because that is exactly why my kids were giving me attitude 2 years ago.  They had undiagnosed learning challenges.  And because people assumed it was attitude, not learning challenges, and they didn't get the emotional and academic support they needed, the attitude deteriorated.  Once I backed up, stopped pushing, started showing grace, got evals, etc.  things really turned around most of the time.  

 

You suspect one child may have learning challenges.  Is it at all possible the one you mention here might also have undiagnosed learning challenges?  Perhaps mild ones?  And because he doesn't know why things are a challenge he has developed a bad attitude?

 

But hugs OP.  Your situation may be very different.  Maybe it is just lack of enthusiasm for learning right now.  Maybe you could try talking to your child and asking if they can articulate what the problem may be?  Ask them to brain storm with you on how to improve the situation?

 

Or maybe come at it from a reward perspective instead of the punishment perspective?

 

Edited to add that maybe there isn't a learning challenge, per se, but maybe some basics were never solid and he is burned out on trying to move forward without a really solid foundation?  I know I struggled in math because of a weak foundation.  I still usually made good grades in school but I hated math and resisted it because I was weak in foundational skills.  Anyway, just another thought that hit me...

[Laura Corin]

 

 

Now, I am not sure your kid would be 'punished' for a bad grade in school. I don't know his year in school (5th grade? Sounds like a 7th grader to me, lol) but the grade itself would be the 'punishment'. If he is young, like third or fourth grade there is a chance the teacher might keep him inside during recess to correct his work. If he still got it wrong, well, again, the grade is his punishment.

 

 

Hobbes has crashed a few tests at school.  He's never been punished for it.  As RS said - the grade is the punishment.

 

L

[IsabelC]

I wouldn't like to punish the child, but I might consider some consequences if I was sure that attitude, rather than learning difficulties, health problems, etc were the issue. Maybe something along the lines of "I can see from your math results that you're really overloaded at the moment. You'll have to give up [insert his most liked sport or other extracurricular activity] for this term. Once the math is back on track we can talk about taking it up again." I'd see this as a last resort though (because it's going to increase his distaste for math), after all other options have failed.

[lmrich]

I think there is a consequence for bad grades. 

[Ellie]

I have never punished for bad grades in all my years of home schooling. But I have been seeing a lack of effort lately. And I know if my children were in public school and kept bringing home bad grades, just because they do not feel like trying, they would be punished. 

 

My son just turned in "corrections" to his math problems again that were 100% wrong. This is not the one I suspect LD on. This is the older one. I told him to take it back and actually do the work and turn in correct problems by 3pm or he would be grounded through Thursday. He turned it back in...all corrections 100% wrong. I offered many times to help him but he refused because he wanted to rush through it and not be bothered with me helping.

 

What do you think?

 

In this situation, it wouldn't be punishing because of bad grades. It would be correcting bad attitude.

[Elisabet1]

Hugs, OP.   I know you are frustrated.

 

FWIW, I do not punish for bad grades.  I work hard to repair the relationship if it is a relationship issue but I also work hard to determine if there are possible learning challenges that are causing the bad grades and possible bad attitude.  Because that is exactly why my kids were giving me attitude 2 years ago.  They had undiagnosed learning challenges.  And because people assumed it was attitude, not learning challenges, and they didn't get the emotional and academic support they needed, the attitude deteriorated.  Once I backed up, stopped pushing, started showing grace, got evals, etc.  things really turned around most of the time.  

 

You suspect one child may have learning challenges.  Is it at all possible the one you mention here might also have undiagnosed learning challenges?  Perhaps mild ones?  And because he doesn't know why things are a challenge he has developed a bad attitude?

 

But hugs OP.  Your situation may be very different.  Maybe it is just lack of enthusiasm for learning right now.  Maybe you could try talking to your child and asking if they can articulate what the problem may be?  Ask them to brain storm with you on how to improve the situation?

 

Or maybe come at it from a reward perspective instead of the punishment perspective?

 

Edited to add that maybe there isn't a learning challenge, per se, but maybe some basics were never solid and he is burned out on trying to move forward without a really solid foundation?  I know I struggled in math because of a weak foundation.  I still usually made good grades in school but I hated math and resisted it because I was weak in foundational skills.  Anyway, just another thought that hit me...

No, no learning problems. He was going along going great. Until his brother came home and started in on us. Then he decided to imitate and not do his work or his corrections. 

 

How it ended today was I gave him a spare worksheet to review negative numbers. Then, I told him he had to do well or he would get another. He came back and got 100%. Then I handed him his sheet again and told him he had to work those two problems out..showing his work. At this point, he was told he was losing the computer. I told him if he corrected his problems and did his chore, he could have the computer back. But we were not doing this attitude thing where he thinks he can just plop down answers without doing the work and have me not notice-because I notice. So...that time, he wrote out the problems and actually solved them and had the correct answers very fast. THEN, he went and did his chore and got his computer back.

 

It is definitely attitude.

 

 

[RootAnn]

If it was attitude, I'd plunk on more work (chores or more/different math).

 

If it is the actual math, we'd sit down another day & do similar (but not those specific) problems.

 

I agree that sometimes you have to cut your losses. I've had kids get so self-spun that nothing would bring them back down to earth before they lost every privilege for the next year. I send them to their room for a nap or outside for a walk before we are both too upset to handle ourselves properly.

[Desert Strawberry]

Well I guess I'm rogue, cuz when my day is going really badly I break out the chocolate or marshmallows and start feeding it.  Kid too hyper to focus?  The caffeine in the chocolate solves it.  Low blood sugar due to growth spurt or me forgetting to feed them?  Chocolate solves it.  He doesn't really understand the math?  Well no problem, now you can help him as you're shoveling chocolate into him, one chip/chunk for every step.  

 

So don't melt down.  Solve it with chocolate.  Or marshmallows.  Or do both as cocoa.  There's not much you can't solve with cocoa and hugs...

 

Or there's JW's steps to solving world crises: 1) you need a shower, 2) you need a nap, 3) you need a walk, 4) you need a sandwich.

 

But me, I just go straight for the chocolate.   :D

Oh my goodness. This may be the most genius parenting advice I have ever read ever. I need a giant bag of mini marshmallows. My whole life would be so much smoother. Just like keeping a few dog kibbles in my pocket. Everyone listens so intently when I have treats.

 

Chocolate wouldn't work. I would eat it all, then go into a (for real) diabetic coma.

[Desert Strawberry]

For grades, never. I don't see any benefit in that. For lack of effort, bad attitude, yes.

 

ETA: As many others have pointed out, I would use natural consequences, not really punishment. Do it again, do other (preferably physical)work, sit until it's done, etc. 

[duckens]

I have not read the other responses yet.

I would not punish for bad grades, but I would have "natural consequences."


Natural consequences:
--Fixing the errors until they are correct.
--Remedial work.  (Mom finds extra videos, workbooks, projects until she is convinced you understand what you need to know).
--We live in a "pay for grades" household, so, of course, no $$ until Mom is satisfied.  I don't pay for things half done, and it's not done until every problem is correct.
--If it takes you longer to learn/relearn something, then it will eat into your playtime. 

[stutterfish]

How it ended today was I gave him a spare worksheet to review negative numbers. Then, I told him he had to do well or he would get another. He came back and got 100%. Then I handed him his sheet again and told him he had to work those two problems out..showing his work. At this point, he was told he was losing the computer. I told him if he corrected his problems and did his chore, he could have the computer back. 

 

Ok, so let me understand better...you told him if he did well in his maths sheet he wouldn't get another.

He got 100%. Is that 100% correct? And you still told him to do some again?

 

Now, I might be misunderstanding what happened above, but if I was a child it would seem to me as if you just moved the goalposts/went back against your word. [i'm not saying that you did, just from his perspective that might be how it seems].   As a teen *any* hint of unjustness would have been a big trigger for conflict for me!   :mad:  Once I got over the 'that's not fair' feeling it would be 'So I got them all right but that's still not good enough, so why should I even bother trying?' 

 

*Of course*, I understand that you need him to do the workings and that's an important part of the maths. However, I wonder if it's worth trying to look at it from his simplified, black-and-white perspective, rather than as the more complex-brained adult. If you do that it might help to head off some of that power conflict.

 

For example, if it was me in that situation I'd have probably said "Well done, you got 100%. Next time I'd really like to see the workings of all the answers. If you don't show the workings I wont be able to give you the marks and that would be a shame.' In our house it's praise, explanation (if needed), then encouragement as to how to do better. Never punishment (which to me has always been counter-productive)

 

However,  I say this as someone who let my toddler wear his welly boots in bed for a year because life is short and there are bigger battles to fight   :laugh:

[clarkacademy]

He would sit there until he got it right period.

[VeritasMama]

If it's a refusal issue, it's a relationship problem, IMHO, not an obedience problem.

I guess I don't see the difference between the two, a good relationship will lead to obedience if the parent values obedience.

[Haiku]

And I know if my children were in public school and kept bringing home bad grades, just because they do not feel like trying, they would be punished. 

 

Why?

 

I would not punish for bad grades. It's not my education. It's my children's. I can make them work on the same thing until they demonstrate understanding, but I would not ground or otherwise punish. That seems so antithetical to the idea of education.

[PeterPan]

Oh my goodness. This may be the most genius parenting advice I have ever read ever. I need a giant bag of mini marshmallows. My whole life would be so much smoother. Just like keeping a few dog kibbles in my pocket. Everyone listens so intently when I have treats.

 

Chocolate wouldn't work. I would eat it all, then go into a (for real) diabetic coma.

Marshmallows come in shapes like bunnies and colors.  Ask me how I know. :D Or use m&ms.  (brush your teeth more often if you do this, oy!)  

 

Seriously, I have a relative who, when we were all discussing discipline one Thanksgiving, said she never understood people who spanked so much, that it should be "hugs, not hits."  And you know, I'm a pretty strict disciplinarian myself, Ted Tripp all the way, and I realized at that point how uptight I was about this, how I had let things turn into power struggles that COULD have been solved with more goodwill, more hugs, more working together, more smoothing things over.  My dh likes to quote the verse "Love covers a multitude of sins."  And I just think we have ENOUGH things to fight over and be firm on in our homes.  As much as we *can* solve it with more hugs, more smoothing it over, we're wise to.  

[Farrar]

I wouldn't punish. If it was about understanding, we'd work together. If it was about effort, we'd also work together on improving that, though in the end, I'm not at all averse to the natural consequence that not doing a good job means you just have to do it again.

[EKS]

Is this the 13yo with Asperger's (whom you mentioned on the room thread)?

 

If so, IMO, that casts this issue in a whole different light.

[KrissiK]

I guess I don't see the difference between the two, a good relationship will lead to obedience if the parent values obedience.

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that that reason a child is disobedient is because the parent doesn't have a good relationship with him? So it's the parent's fault?

[Elisabet1]

Ok, so let me understand better...you told him if he did well in his maths sheet he wouldn't get another.

He got 100%. Is that 100% correct? And you still told him to do some again?

 

Now, I might be misunderstanding what happened above, but if I was a child it would seem to me as if you just moved the goalposts/went back against your word. [i'm not saying that you did, just from his perspective that might be how it seems].   As a teen *any* hint of unjustness would have been a big trigger for conflict for me!   :mad:  Once I got over the 'that's not fair' feeling it would be 'So I got them all right but that's still not good enough, so why should I even bother trying?' 

 

*Of course*, I understand that you need him to do the workings and that's an important part of the maths. However, I wonder if it's worth trying to look at it from his simplified, black-and-white perspective, rather than as the more complex-brained adult. If you do that it might help to head off some of that power conflict.

 

For example, if it was me in that situation I'd have probably said "Well done, you got 100%. Next time I'd really like to see the workings of all the answers. If you don't show the workings I wont be able to give you the marks and that would be a shame.' In our house it's praise, explanation (if needed), then encouragement as to how to do better. Never punishment (which to me has always been counter-productive)

 

However,  I say this as someone who let my toddler wear his welly boots in bed for a year because life is short and there are bigger battles to fight   :laugh:

No..the additional sheet was just a print out of negative and positive numbers for adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing. He would get another one of those if he did it poorly. But they were very easy problems and only 12. That was not the original assignment. He still had the corrections from the original assignment to make. The corrections were just basically switching negative and positive numbers. He kept turning it in over and over again, but had not fixed it. It was just two problems. On his mistakes, the original assignment that he was not fixing..it was something like  9-X= 12 and he wrote his answer as X=3. I asked him what happened to the negative sign and pointed out what he was missing. I asked him to write out his steps, as he keeps trying to do everything in his head. But he just did not want to do it. It was that simple. Prior to recently, when his brother did not want to do his work, he did all this stuff just fine. But now he figures he can simply imitate his brother's bad behavior and be fine. Taking away computer until he fixed these problems clearly solved the problem.

[Elisabet1]

Is this the 13yo with Asperger's (whom you mentioned on the room thread)?

 

If so, IMO, that casts this issue in a whole different light.

Why would the Aspergers matter? He still needs to follow the same rules and expectations as everyone else.

[EKS]

Why would the Aspergers matter? He still needs to follow the same rules and expectations as everyone else.

 

Yes, but the way you deal with it might be different.  Also, mentioning it would have probably saved you from having to deal with all the comments about it being a relationship issue.

[bobbeym]

I wouldn't call it punishment for a bad grade, but DS has the option to correct/rewrite and resubmit within 48 hours for half-point credit any assignment that is a 79 © or below.  If he doesn't submit it within the 48 hours the original grade stands.  Yes, it does mean he has some very low grades that drag his overall average down and he has to work that much harder to pull it back up.  I consider that the natural consequences of his choice.

 

If I know he understands the work and is falling behind or simply rushing through his work making careless mistakes, it's often a time management issue that needs to be addressed through more parental involvement to ensure he's doing school work and not spending all his time gaming.