Algebra in younger kid: takes forever but getting it right...help?

[Tess in the Burbs]

Ds did Derek Owens pre-algebra last year and did well.  He had a 90 average of test scores.  

 

We opted to try Jacobs Algebra this year with the Callahan videos. 

 

We slowed down the first chapter review so he was doing a lesson a day.  At first this was a lot of problems so the time he took made sense.  He's in chapter 2 now with only 5-7 problems for a lesson and is still taking hours.  He has asked questions and sometimes I can guide him toward figuring out the answer and other times I use Khan to add more to the lesson.  But he's getting the problems right.  Just taking HOURS to do it every day.  

 

It's affected our entire school day to say the least.  He's slower to finish anything in life.  Bathroom, eating, school.  So giving a timer for an hour is tricky...he's the kind who would sit there and do one problem in an hour just to be done.  

 

However, when I suggested his brain isn't ready for algebra regardless of last year's success he was adamant about not repeating pre-algebra.  B/c his sister is doing pre algebra this year and he doesn't want to be doing the same as her ever.  

 

Help?  Would it be ok to split the problems over 2 days?  It would be 2-4 problems a day only.  But time wise would be an hour or more most likely.  How much help if he's watching videos should I be offering?  I don't want to figure out later he needed more time with pre algebra.  I would rather make the switch now if possible...even though he against the idea.  

 

What other program would be best in this case?  Since he did well with pre algebra?  Or is there another algebra program that is slower?  I am just really not sure what's appropriate time wise or help wise in this situation.  He wants to do algebra.  And gets most of the problems right.  He doesn't have a test for another week or so....and obviously if he bombs it I think he should do more pre algebra.  But curious what others think at this stage....is he taking too long?  Do we need to cut the problem set over 2 days?  

 

Would love your advice and experience. 

[chiguirre]

I don't know. T has issues, just different issues. Could you try Keys to Algebra and see if the worksheet format helps? Maybe he'll speed up if he can visualize how much work he has more concretely?

 

Good luck!

[EKS]

I've done a few things to speed things along over the years. You could copy the problems for him. Or do some or all of the problems orally and on a whiteboard. Or you could do Jacobs over two years so he only has to do half of the homework set each day.

 

However, there is the very real possibility that the work is too hard and that is why he is moving so slowly.

[Tess in the Burbs]

case in point:  he just finished after 2+ hours lesson 2.6 and got all but one right.  We did watch a Khan video as well today for better clarification of direct/inverse variation.  He's checking his own work and what he missed was just careless computation.  He got the concepts and problems set up fine. 

 

Right now, it's word problems/graphs.  Not something I can write out for him...he needs to figure out the formula and write it himself.  

[wapiti]

It depends on what is taking so long.  If your ds is just a slow processor, in particular a slow handwriter, that has nothing to do with algebra readiness.  

 

For example, my "slowest" kid, who's slow at everything and avoids handwriting, is also my most advanced, mathiest kid.  He's doing some review with Jacobs and, yes, he has been IMO unacceptably slow (and I'm not surprised).  In his case, in addition to the avoidance of handwriting and the overall slow-speed, Jacobs is probably too easy (at least in the first half of the text), and accordingly it's on the boring side for him considering his prior algebra experience.  (It's a really long story that is too much to go into here and not relevant; he did quite a bit with AoPS Intro to Alg.)  I am currently preparing worksheets of the exercises for him to do at school, to grease the skids, so to speak (reduce amount of necessary handwriting).  FWIW, his teacher wants to give our current plan a few more weeks before deciding whether this approach is working.  The alternatives we are considering would involve more on-line work (e.g. Alcumus, maybe some Khan thrown in for a little drill)

 

On the other hand, if your ds is slow because he's not understanding what Jacobs wants him to figure out, then that's different.  

 

The slow speed could also be as much a function of text as a matter of readiness.  Note that the Set 2 exercises involve a bit of guided discovery, that the students have to think a bit rather than plug-and-chug.

 

That's my two cents.  I'd observe closely, while he is working, to see what the trouble is.  What does he say?  If he likes it and isn't complaining, then that would be a good sign.  If he thinks it's too easy, or too hard, then that might point toward taking some other approach.

 

Eta, 2 hours is very long for a Jacobs lesson, IMO.  I'm wondering about processing speed (handwriting)?  or other possible issues (e.g. vision)?  That may have implications for all kinds of important things, e.g. standardized tests.

[Tess in the Burbs]

Hmmm, it does seem like a lot of problem sets from the Callahan list are set II.  I appreciate that insight and will sit with him this week and try some different problem sets to see what the issue is.  thanks!

[wapiti]

Hmmm, it does seem like a lot of problem sets from the Callahan list are set II.  I appreciate that insight and will sit with him this week and try some different problem sets to see what the issue is.  thanks!

 

What problem sets have you been assigning?  Sets 2 and 3 are equivalent.  I'd assign one or the other but definitely not both unless extra practice is needed.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I agree, Set II and III are redundant - I wouldn't assign them both!  If you are using the Callahan syllabus, they go through and choose problems from all sets.  My impression was that Callahan was assigning fewer problems than if you had the student do all of Set 1, 2, and 4, but I didn't actually count.

 

I'm having Shannon do Set 1, 3 and 4 just because that makes it easier for her to check her work in the Teacher's Guide - those are the sets with solutions in the Guide.  Set II will be used for review only if she has trouble and needs extra practice.

 

You are ahead of us, so I can't help with how long the problem sets should take.  The chapter 1 problem sets are taking about half an hour here.  I agree with the idea of trying to figure out what it is that is slowing him down.  Daydreaming? Dawdling? Or actual issues with the math?  Different solutions depending on the cause, right?

 

One thing that has helped here with the daydreaming/dawdling thing is that Shannon sets a timer for 30 minutes, and works hard.  Then she takes a 10 min break, then works again for another 30 min.  She gets more done in this split 60 min than she was in extended 90+ min episodes without breaks.  We got this technique idea from A Mind For Numbers - your ds might enjoy reading that book, and it might help him come up with some strategies he thinks might help him learn more efficiently.

[EKS]

I don't know about Dr Callahan, but the student should be doing all of the set II or set III. The sets are equivalent.

[Crimson Wife]

Watch out for the possibility that your child may not actually be mastering the content as it appears. I thought my DD was doing fine with the Algebra 1 content in Singapore DM 7A-8A and was shocked to discover at the beginning of this year that she scored a pathetic 27% on an algebra 1 assessment and she hadn't mastered any of the 11 topics tested. I knew she hadn't finished algebra 1 but I was expecting to see a score more in the 50-60% correct range and mastery of the easier topics.

 

If he has mastered the pre-algebra topics, it is fine to have him in algebra 1 this year. Just be aware that he might need to do a second run-through of algebra 1 next year.

[Chrysalis Academy]

The other thing I was going to say is that Jacobs starts out super slow and gentle - Ch. 1, 3, 4, and 5 are all review from PreA.  Chapter 2 is, I think, new stuff for some kids, I know we didn't cover functions and direct and inverse variation in PreA.  So if the chapters that should be mostly review are slow/difficult, then maybe his PreA prep isn't adequate.  If, however, he does fine on those but struggles with chapters presenting new material, maybe it's the presentation.

 

Just an idea . . . 

 

Also, when you say it's just a few problems per lesson in chapter 2, that's not quite right - I'm looking at Set II of Lesson 2.1, and it has "only" 6 problems, but some of the numbers have problems a-j!  So it's actually quite a few more problems.  I wouldn't think it's the end of the world to split a problem set up over two days.  I'd just want to make sure he's working efficiently and is understanding what he's doing.

[kiana]

I think splitting a lesson over two days is fine.

[Space station]

When my dd10 takes a long time to do her algebra it is usually because of 2 things. 1) she writes slowly because handwriting is an issue; 2) she tries to do the entire problem in her head before she writes anything. She does this also because of the handwriting issue. She is trying to do as much as she can in her head so that she writes as little as she can get away with. This leads to errors, especially lost signs. She also doesn't want to have to rewrite a problem, erase anything, or cross anything out, which is a perfectionist issue. I have to tell her that she needs to write it and manipulate everything on paper, and I usually have to stay nearby to make sure that she does. The days that math goes the fastest for her are challenge problem days, because we do those together at the white board. The impermanence of the medium seems to make it easier for her to release her perfectionism about her writing and just do the math.

 

I don't know if your child shares any of these traits, but if so, white boards and buddy math might help.

[Tess in the Burbs]

I'm thinking there are a few issues in regards to the time it takes.  First, he sees a-j and freaks out/complains about the work.  Right away he doesn't want to do it.  So he sits.  Eventually doing one when I ask how far along he is.  Second, I noticed that on the ones he asked for help...if I read the question he often says ok and knows right away what to do.  Obviously auditory learner and he even made a comment about not liking history not that I wasn't reading it out loud.  So while the video was to be the math teacher....I wonder if I need to read the problems to him since he seems to understand it better when I do, instead of him reading it himself.  Which leads to my question of when would he finally be able to do this on his own??  

 

I'm going to sit with him the rest of the week and break the chap 3 lessons into 2 days and see what his time is each day.  We are following the Callahan syllabus and it seems like some days are a good variety from the sets.  

 

thanks for the advice.  Lots to think about and observe before we make changes.  thank you

 

And the first test is after chapter 3...so that will give me an idea of how he's retaining things.  I am open to whatever, but he would rather move on than dare do the same math as his sister...so yes, we may end up doing another year of algebra(in another program) just to be different than his sister.....who's right behind him. 

 

 

[kiana]

This might be a crazy idea, but has he tried reading the problem out loud himself?

 

I notice with a lot of my students, they look at me with a deer-in-the-headlights look, but when I say "read the directions to me", they get halfway through and say "ohhhh nevermind"

[Space station]

This might be a crazy idea, but has he tried reading the problem out loud himself?

 

I notice with a lot of my students, they look at me with a deer-in-the-headlights look, but when I say "read the directions to me", they get halfway through and say "ohhhh nevermind"

Exactly this! My brother always had to do this to do his math. Total auditory learner! It did get better as he got to high school.

[Tess in the Burbs]

great idea and we will try it!  thanks!

[MamaSprout]

Watch out for the possibility that your child may not actually be mastering the content as it appears. I thought my DD was doing fine with the Algebra 1 content in Singapore DM 7A-8A and was shocked to discover at the beginning of this year that she scored a pathetic 27% on an algebra 1 assessment and she hadn't mastered any of the 11 topics tested. I knew she hadn't finished algebra 1 but I was expecting to see a score more in the 50-60% correct range and mastery of the easier topics.

 

If he has mastered the pre-algebra topics, it is fine to have him in algebra 1 this year. Just be aware that he might need to do a second run-through of algebra 1 next year.

This is a little OT, but I wanted to thank you for posting about this in the past. It changed the way we would have approached grade 6 math and PreAlgebra.

[angela in ohio]

Is he bored? Sometimes the answer isn't that they are struggling with the material, but they are getting it just fine. If he did a thorough pre-algebra, he might be bored reviewing the concepts in the beginning of algebra. If you are willing to sit with him, I would say work on each lesson to make sure he understands (a problem or two) and then move on, maybe doing more than one a day. Then when he gets to new material he doesn't know, slow back down. Another possibility is that the program just isn't a good fit for him. I would be willing to switch once to see if that was the case.

 

My dc all did algebra pretty early, but then they repeated it with an entirely different course the next year. I also had them do calculus I twice. Best decisions I ever made. :D

[kiwik]

I read complicated things out loud - it gives extra reinforcement and makes you pay closer attention.

[ColleenInWis]

Tess, I agree that sitting down with your son and working through problems should help you see where the hang-up is.  As a long-time Jacobs user (I'm on my sixth and last student now), I will say that it seems to be a time-intensive text.  What I am doing currently with my 9th-grade daughter is to work with her on days when I can--doing Sets 1 and part of 3 verbally as much as possible, in the hopes of completing 4 lessons a week.  This cuts down on dawdling, plus I can see which problems she already understands and which need a little more explanation or nudging.  My other students had to work mostly on their own, and each of them took more than a year to complete the text.  Learning by doing the Set 2 or 3 problems just takes time and thought, and that's probably why it works.    

 

 

[Kendall]

I have a son who started Algebra 1 in 7th grade.  We used Foerster Algebra 1 and it took 2 years.  But that was my plan all along since I knew he would work slowly, and so I wasn't frustrated.  We just worked for a set amount of time each day and called it done.  We did all of the word problems and I supplemented with some hard problems from the NEM series.  He is still slow at math but has been able to do Geometry, Algebra 2 each in a single school year and is on pace to complete PreCalc this year.  This gives him his senior year to take Calc 1 and 2 if desired which is plenty of math for high school.  In a lot of ways Algebra 1 is the most important math to be really solid on and I wanted to take our time.  

 

Kendall