If your dc is *very* 2E, did you grade retain/adjust?

[PeterPan]

Guess the title says it all.  We've been advised by the OT to preemptively retain him a year, that he isn't ready to be called a K5er, even though he's about to turn 6 and clearly very, very bright.  And it's very hard (for some who shall remain nameless) to swallow.  They want to know if it will all just turn around, blah blah.  

 

So then, could you document with your answer (to the poll that is supposed to be here, assuming I did it right), how that turned out?  See, it seems to me it's a social problem more than anything and that can be tricky, tricky to handle.  It's all fine and dandy to say be age-grade socially, till they realize he can't read in sunday school, till he's in junior high and talking graduation and realizes he won't graduate with his friends like he thought, etc. etc. 

 

So then, which is worse, to adjust preemptively and find you have room on the end to adjust back, or NOT to adjust and WISH you had and correct it or go through the problems of it?  And how did you determine the best course on that?

[EKS]

My 18yo son is 2E.  We thought about skipping 8th at one point and at another point thought about adding a second 11th grade year.  We ended up doing neither and I *think* it's worked out ok.  Of course, right now he's doing a gap year thing 3000 miles away and needs to apply to colleges.  And he's putting it off.  Aaaarrrggghhh!   :banghead:

[8filltheheart]

Our 2E kids we kept in grade level. Our dd who has a late July bday and has consistently had every milestone be late was held back 1 yr. (She is a 3rd grader this yr.) Cognitively she isn't slow as in deficient, but she has definitely done everything on the far end of the normal range. She didn't learn her colors until 4. She couldn't grasp the idea of symbols representing numbers or sounds until 6, etc. Holding her back was definitely the best decision b/c she is functioning on grade level as a 3rd grader, but she would have been an extremely struggling 4th grader.

[Just Another Jen]

I grade adjusted by holding my youngest back. We tried K in the year he would have started and I could tell he wasn't going to be grade level in his fine motor skills. He has a early August birthday. He is exactly where he should be as a third grader. I figure we can adjust later if needed.

[hornblower]

Are you speaking about what to say in a social setting/what the child should call themselves? 

For that, my kids just said 'we homeschool. we don't use grade levels.  I'm ___ years old.'

If people asked more mostly we would just look at them with a gad, you are rude and nosy look & would respond with "we work at our own pace"

It's true. I really didn't pay that much attn to it. I thought about the stages & roughly had a plan for where we were but I didn't discuss that with anyone but people who truly understood asynchronous learners & were supportive of what we were doing.

 

[PeterPan]

I grade adjusted by holding my youngest back. We tried K in the year he would have started and I could tell he wasn't going to be grade level in his fine motor skills. He has a early August birthday. He is exactly where he should be as a third grader. I figure we can adjust later if needed.

Yes, this is what's getting us, the fall b-day PLUS the SN.  It feels like you've already held him back (my ds misses the cutoff by a month) and then you add another year to it.  He'll literally be 19 for the majority of his senior year. Does that bug you at all?  Is it just a non-issue, the fall b-day making them older already and then the grade adjustment on top of it?  Does it raise eyebrows or cause problems?  How do you have him answer the social questions?  And what do you use then for camp, social activities, church, etc.?

[PeterPan]

Are you speaking about what to say in a social setting/what the child should call themselves? 

 

For that, my kids just said 'we homeschool. we don't use grade levels.  I'm ___ years old.'

 

If people asked more mostly we would just look at them with a gad, you are rude and nosy look & would respond with "we work at our own pace"

 

It's true. I really didn't pay that much attn to it. I thought about the stages & roughly had a plan for where we were but I didn't discuss that with anyone but people who truly understood asynchronous learners & were supportive of what we were doing.

 

 

Yup, that's what I'm thinking we'd have to go to.  Here's my age, I work at a lot of levels.  I think I might switch to homeschooling under the private school laws in our state.  Then he could say his school doesn't assign grades, snort.

[Julie of KY]

I'd call him the grade you think he should be age-wise unless you want him with a different social group. - Parent decision not based on academics.

 

I have three kids that are 2E.

 

Oldest - 15 year old, it's all beginning to fall into place (I think thanks to VT this past year!) - 15 year old who tests almost flawlessly on math/logic/visual special and less than first percentile on language and writing subtests. Definitely 2E with his strengths and weaknesses worlds apart. Diagnosed dyslexic and severely dysgraphic. It was recommended to hold him back based on his inability to read and write when young. Reading came along decently well and now he's an avid reader - I never counted reading as a major problem. He works at an elite level of math, but has done it all orally for years. After talking to our COVD doc for hours about him, I became convinced that VT might be able to help his writing and other difficulties. He had major problems translating his amazing visual special abilities to concrete things like how big a letter should be on paper. For the first time, he's now writing without me having to scribe everything. He's beginning to learn keyboarding and he's translating his visual images of a topic to words on paper. I think it's because of VT which I was repeatedly told by professionals not to do as he didn't have bad convergence or trouble reading. However, his reading has improved dramatically as well - he couldn't read a textbook like math or science as he wasn't reading all the words. As good as he was in math, he wanted me to read every problem to him and now he's actually looking at the textbook. I'll write up his dysgraphia/VT story someday to share.

 

13 yo - not 2E

 

11 yo. - gifted, severely dyslexic - things beginning to fall into place.

 

7 yo - gifted, severely dyslexic, verbal apraxia - hoping someday it'll all come together for him as well. His speech has improved dramatically, but everything else has yet to follow.

[Crimson Wife]

My fall birthday DS did a year of transition between K and 1. His birthday was 3 weeks before the cutoff at the time. He was already reading, so I decided to go ahead and start him in K at not-quite-5, mostly to get the charter stipend. It became clear by the spring that he didn't have the fine motor skills or attention span to move on to 1st the following year. So for the purposes of the charter he was retained but we just kept moving academically at his own pace. For group activities, I already had him with the younger kids.

 

My youngest has a January birthday so she's one of the older kids in her grade. Socially, she does better interacting with NT kids who are younger than her. So one option for next year is to have her spend part of the day in a special ed 1st grade class and part of the day in a mainstream K class.

[lovinmyboys]

I *think* I would go ahead and call him K5. I'm not sure how much he is struggling in K, but something about a 19yr old male high school senior doesn't seem like it would be the best idea. If he is almost 6, he is already an older Ker. Good luck with your decision!

 

ETA: my mom is a public school reading teacher and she says (at her school anyway) that they would never retain a child that old-for-grade. They would keep him in his age grade and just give him accommodations and extra help. I'm not saying that is applicable to your situation since you homeschool, just throwing it out there.

[PeterPan]

I'd call him the grade you think he should be age-wise unless you want him with a different social group. - Parent decision not based on academics.

 

I have three kids that are 2E.

 

Oldest - 15 year old, it's all beginning to fall into place (I think thanks to VT this past year!) - 15 year old who tests almost flawlessly on math/logic/visual special and less than first percentile on language and writing subtests. Definitely 2E with his strengths and weaknesses worlds apart. Diagnosed dyslexic and severely dysgraphic. It was recommended to hold him back based on his inability to read and write when young. Reading came along decently well and now he's an avid reader - I never counted reading as a major problem. He works at an elite level of math, but has done it all orally for years. After talking to our COVD doc for hours about him, I became convinced that VT might be able to help his writing and other difficulties. He had major problems translating his amazing visual special abilities to concrete things like how big a letter should be on paper. For the first time, he's now writing without me having to scribe everything. He's beginning to learn keyboarding and he's translating his visual images of a topic to words on paper. I think it's because of VT which I was repeatedly told by professionals not to do as he didn't have bad convergence or trouble reading. However, his reading has improved dramatically as well - he couldn't read a textbook like math or science as he wasn't reading all the words. As good as he was in math, he wanted me to read every problem to him and now he's actually looking at the textbook. I'll write up his dysgraphia/VT story someday to share.

 

13 yo - not 2E

 

11 yo. - gifted, severely dyslexic - things beginning to fall into place.

 

7 yo - gifted, severely dyslexic, verbal apraxia - hoping someday it'll all come together for him as well. His speech has improved dramatically, but everything else has yet to follow.

So you're saying that one year retaining wouldn't have made a hill of beans difference because they're SO asynchronous?  That's a perspective, sigh, hadn't really walked up to and looked square in the eye and shaken hands with, honestly.  

 

So for your 7yo, how does that work out?  Is he also young socially or pairing well with younger NT kids?  Not to be dumb, but how do you know on the social question?

[Dagne]

My dd is too young to know how things will come together, but so far we've decided to call her the grade she would be in if she attended PS. She will be 8 in a few weeks and is in 2nd grade.

 

Dd was adopted from China at age 3, and at 5 was still delayed in most areas. We called that year "kindergarten", even though it didn't look like it. She spent more time doing speech therapy than she did on academics, and her academics were below grade level. She learned things like colors, shapes, numbers to 10 and a few letters. We played with play-doh, colored and learned how to use scissors. I read aloud to her for hours every day and bribed my older kids to read to her when I lost my voice. Last year, her receptive language just about "caught up" and she took off in math. This week, we're working on sounding out cvc words, multi-digit multiplication and how to introduce yourself. 

 

Her grade level doesn't come up often, and hasn't been an issue. She doesn't attend Sunday school or any other activity that would require reading or writing more than her name. Her activities play to her strengths - dance, music and art. For that reason, she fits in best with girls her age and even a little older. The other kids just think she's quiet. :)

[PeterPan]

I *think* I would go ahead and call him K5. I'm not sure how much he is struggling in K, but something about a 19yr old male high school senior doesn't seem like it would be the best idea. If he is almost 6, he is already an older Ker. Good luck with your decision!

 

ETA: my mom is a public school reading teacher and she says (at her school anyway) that they would never retain a child that old-for-grade. They would keep him in his age grade and just give him accommodations and extra help. I'm not saying that is applicable to your situation since you homeschool, just throwing it out there.

Yes, I think that's the concern.  He's already on the old end of his grade.  Thanks for asking your mom.  That's very interesting.  I had been told over at LC that the general trend in the ps seems to be accommodate and don't retain, but I thought that was more just a "give up hope, you know he'll never be on grade level anyway" kind of thing.  I mean, not to be unkind, but that's how it comes across.  So if we just wait a year, then the motor control and whatnot would be there and it would gel and make him look more normal/typical, right?  

 

You mentioned the idea of struggling in K5.  To me he's not really even in K5.  That's why I put the "ish" in my sig, lol.  Seriously, he's just himself.  When he wants to do something, we do it.  9 pm, 9 am, when he wants.  If he doesn't want to do it, he gets up and walks away.  There's no maturity to handle being compelled.  His writing is wobbly.  His motor planning doesn't evidence serious praxis but he does need a lot more repetitions and attempts than normal to learn something.  He spends a surprising amount of time (for a boy that busy) thinking about patterns in numbers, but he won't consistently recognize the number 9 with dots.  Formal written math given up on entirely.  Nothing generalizes at all.  I've been using Ronit Bird with him, and even that is very slow-going and that's as remedial for dyscalculia as you get.  I'm thinking I might get him the new Murderous Math elementary readers, just to see what he'd make of them.  You never know with him.  He watches dd's biology videos and comes up telling me about vertebrates and invertebrates.  No hope of reading any time soon, very poor scores on the auditory processing and phonological portions of the testing.

 

So yes, I assume we'll get dyslexia and maybe dyscalculia labels.  I've been wrong before, but that's what I assume.  Or something I'm not expecting.  I read him books every day from a variety of sources (fables, art, DK history topical books, you name it), do some math, work on the motor planning for handwriting, and let him have all the History Channel, Popular Mechanics for Kids, and audiobooks he wants.  That isn't K5 really.  It's more like I facilitate what he's ready for and that's what it is.  

[PeterPan]

My dd is too young to know how things will come together, but so far we've decided to call her the grade she would be in if she attended PS. She will be 8 in a few weeks and is in 2nd grade.

 

Dd was adopted from China at age 3, and at 5 was still delayed in most areas. We called that year "kindergarten", even though it didn't look like it. She spent more time doing speech therapy than she did on academics, and her academics were below grade level. She learned things like colors, shapes, numbers to 10 and a few letters. We played with play-doh, colored and learned how to use scissors. I read aloud to her for hours every day and bribed my older kids to read to her when I lost my voice. Last year, her receptive language just about "caught up" and she took off in math. This week, we're working on sounding out cvc words, multi-digit multiplication and how to introduce yourself. 

 

Her grade level doesn't come up often, and hasn't been an issue. She doesn't attend Sunday school or any other activity that would require reading or writing more than her name. Her activities play to her strengths - dance, music and art. For that reason, she fits in best with girls her age and even a little older. The other kids just think she's quiet. :)

That's really interesting.  I hadn't thought about letting it be a social issue and letting that decide it.  

[Julie of KY]

So you're saying that one year retaining wouldn't have made a hill of beans difference because they're SO asynchronous?  That's a perspective, sigh, hadn't really walked up to and looked square in the eye and shaken hands with, honestly.  

 

So for your 7yo, how does that work out?  Is he also young socially or pairing well with younger NT kids?  Not to be dumb, but how do you know on the social question?

With my oldest, retaining him when young wouldn't have made any difference. He's been different all his life. For years he looked like he was autistic. When we did more formal ASD testing, we decided that the social differences were more likely from language related learning disabilities. He complains now that most peers don't relate as he just thinks on a different level from them - and it'd be worse if we had held him back.

 

My 7 year old (verbal apraxia) is extremely social and he covers up much of his asynchronous abilities by being so cute. When he was four and "speaking" only in sign language, most people didn't realize he couldn't speak. He was so proficient in nonverbal communication that adults didn't realize he wasn't speaking. His language has come tremendously far in the past few years and he's extremely social. Teaching him reading is beginning to feel like teaching him to speak - lots and lots of hard work. I think he'll be my hardest to teach reading (and my 11 yo just started reading).

 

A huge benefit of homeschooling has been to be able to protect my kid's self-esteem as they haven't realized just how asynchronous they are.

 

As to what "grade" your son should be - I'd recommend you follow your maternal instinct. Assign a grade if you want or just say you don't label by grade. Grades have been important for us for Sunday school and cub scouts, otherwise irrelevant.

[8filltheheart]

Yes, I think that's the concern. He's already on the old end of his grade. Thanks for asking your mom. That's very interesting. I had been told over at LC that the general trend in the ps seems to be accommodate and don't retain, but I thought that was more just a "give up hope, you know he'll never be on grade level anyway" kind of thing. I mean, not to be unkind, but that's how it comes across. So if we just wait a year, then the motor control and whatnot would be there and it would gel and make him look more normal/typical, right?

 

You mentioned the idea of struggling in K5. To me he's not really even in K5. That's why I put the "ish" in my sig, lol. Seriously, he's just himself. When he wants to do something, we do it. 9 pm, 9 am, when he wants. If he doesn't want to do it, he gets up and walks away. There's no maturity to handle being compelled. His writing is wobbly. His motor planning doesn't evidence serious praxis but he does need a lot more repetitions and attempts than normal to learn something. He spends a surprising amount of time (for a boy that busy) thinking about patterns in numbers, but he won't consistently recognize the number 9 with dots. Formal written math given up on entirely. Nothing generalizes at all. I've been using Ronit Bird with him, and even that is very slow-going and that's as remedial for dyscalculia as you get. I'm thinking I might get him the new Murderous Math elementary readers, just to see what he'd make of them. You never know with him. He watches dd's biology videos and comes up telling me about vertebrates and invertebrates. No hope of reading any time soon, very poor scores on the auditory processing and phonological portions of the testing.

 

So yes, I assume we'll get dyslexia and maybe dyscalculia labels. I've been wrong before, but that's what I assume. Or something I'm not expecting. I read him books every day from a variety of sources (fables, art, DK history topical books, you name it), do some math, work on the motor planning for handwriting, and let him have all the History Channel, Popular Mechanics for Kids, and audiobooks he wants. That isn't K5 really. It's more like I facilitate what he's ready for and that's what it is.

 

Is he aware of grade level and what grade other kids his age are in? Or is he clueless that grade level matters to some people? (My older kids were pretty clueless BC it just wasn't something we talked about, but my younger kids are very aware bc it is just more "in our life. ")

 

If it matters to him, I would call him grade level by state age requirements. If he is clueless, I would let it be jello and not able to nailed to a tree. I would avoid a classification until at least 8. I would use where he is at 8-9 guide my decision. If he is clearly not going to fit an easy classification by then, I would stick with state age guidelines. If he is fitting comfortably into the lower grade, then I wouldn't worry about the stigma of a 19 yr old sr. You can always grade skip in middle school if he accelerates later on.

[Just Another Jen]

Yes, this is what's getting us, the fall b-day PLUS the SN.  It feels like you've already held him back (my ds misses the cutoff by a month) and then you add another year to it.  He'll literally be 19 for the majority of his senior year. Does that bug you at all?  Is it just a non-issue, the fall b-day making them older already and then the grade adjustment on top of it?  Does it raise eyebrows or cause problems?  How do you have him answer the social questions?  And what do you use then for camp, social activities, church, etc.?

 

It does raise eye brows because he is a big kid anyway. But, I have simply told him that in school he would be in 4th grade, and in some subjects at home he is working at that level or higher. In others, not so much so we call him a third grader. He isn't in anything this year that requires a grade, but if he was I would list the grade of his age. He is the youngest and because his siblings are all a lot older he has been told how each of them had challenges when they were younger. He can see that they are all fine now so its a non issue for him. I've seen kids make huge strides in one school year so I wouldn't worry too much now. By high school you may be ready to put him back up to his "real" grade. If not so what? When he is 30 no one will know or care that he graduated high school at 19.

[Just Another Jen]

Honestly, our big victory this year is that he is wearing shoes other than crocs. I'll take what I can get.

[PeterPan]

Julie, yes yes yes! So I'm curious, what are you using to teach him to read? Did you end up doing LIPS, Earobics, or anything like that?

[PeterPan]

Is he aware of grade level and what grade other kids his age are in? Or is he clueless that grade level matters to some people? (My older kids were pretty clueless BC it just wasn't something we talked about, but my younger kids are very aware bc it is just more "in our life. ")

If it matters to him, I would call him grade level by state age requirements. If he is clueless, I would let it be jello and not able to nailed to a tree. I would avoid a classification until at least 8. I would use where he is at 8-9 guide my decision. If he is clearly not going to fit an easy classification by then, I would stick with state age guidelines. If he is fitting comfortably into the lower grade, then I wouldn't worry about the stigma of a 19 yr old sr. You can always grade skip in middle school if he accelerates later on.

That's a really interesting take and gives me some fresh ways to think through it, thanks! He was very aware of the idea of starting school, but grade level doesn't seem to be an issue to him yet. And that makes sense that if a grade correction will normalize him, then it will be obvious and we can do it. And if the grade correction has no hope of solving it, then there's no point.

[prairiewindmomma]

OhE, are there any regulatory reasons (testing, counting hours) that you should consider for your state? That, I think, would drive my decision.

 

I was at your point a few years ago. I had a kid who could tell me about medieval swords or the characteristics of certain insects but couldn't draw a triangle or recognize most letters. It was the first moment of "no, this really is a big problem with ds and it might not go away and he keeps further behind and he may never catch up".

 

We have no regulations as to testing/progression so we called him K and logged the hours. In reality, he is now a full grade level behind in the traditional subjects. I debate about what to do with him when he hit jr high, but we will see where he is at that point.

[Tokyomarie]

For formal purposes, I would go with the age-grade designation in your state if you think he fits well socially. My son has a late fall birthday. Our state- at the time- had an even later cutoff date. The year we moved here, he could have been in 1st grade. In math concepts he was quite advanced and, similar to your son, even more advanced in content knowledge. Fine motor and literacy skills were just not there. I called him K the fall he turned 6yo. By Christmas, it was clear that he was struggling with even K level work in fine motor and literacy. Because we don't have to file paperwork in our state, I didn't have to have a formal designation. I ended up staying flexible for a couple of years, but then for the rest of his schooling until into high school, I kept him on the track he was in by calling him K the fall he turned 6yo. Socially, that was the right thing to do.

 

In high school, it became clear that he wasn't going to be ready to move away to 4 year university at 18 or 18.5. He was just still too asynchronous in his development: academics, social, executive function- the whole ball of wax. He was just all over the map at age 14-15. He ended up going into a middle college program, which is essentially full-time DE at the CC for 11th grade. It's a 3 year program, so he didn't graduate until 19.5yo. I would not have a 19.5yo graduating from a traditional high school. There is just too much of a social development gap between a just turned 14yo and a 19.5yo. Having a 19.5yo being hot-housed in a single building that holds 1000-2000 adolescents is just not a good choice, IMO. *However* a 19yo at the CC all day while still having some advantages of being called a high school student was a good option for a student who still needed to work on writing and EF skills while working on advanced math and science skills. (We have a good CC that has excellent math, science, and IT courses, some of them taught by the same profs who teach or have taught at an elite university down the street!). He is turning 20yo this fall. He is a 1st year student at his 4yr university- still asynchronous- but definitely ready to take full advantage of what the university has to offer.

[PeterPan]

Prairie, I have to file for him a year from now. I don't think the process will suit him and I'm pondering switching to using the private school laws. I don't see the point in having someone who doesn't know him sign saying he's performing at ability level. Waste of time.

[PeterPan]

Marie, suddenly everything you're saying MAKES SENSE. Thank you. :)

 

So then how would you handle it if the plan was a 13th year, largely cc, still called high school, but NOT with a formal middle college program available? Would you grad with a party at 12 the or after 13th?

[Crimson Wife]

In my state, special ed students have access to district services up through at least age 21 (might even be 22) even if they have graduated from high school. My district has a transition-to-college program in conjunction with the local CC for students with Asperger's and HFA. Youngest DD might do that if she's academically on a college prep track but not ready to function on her own at college at 18. At 5 3/4 it's way too early to know what she's going to be like as a teen. But I'm glad to know that the program exists.

[Julie of KY]

Julie, yes yes yes! So I'm curious, what are you using to teach him to read? Did you end up doing LIPS, Earobics, or anything like that?

Speech therapist for years - currently on break from speech; she worked with him on lots of stuff including LIPS and Earbotics

 

lots of phonological activities from the Florida Center for Reading Research

http://www.fcrr.org/for-educators/sca_k-1.asp

 

Hearbuilder Phonological Awareness at home - this was very difficult, but very helpful

 

Vision therapy - not specifically for reading, but worked on those skills also

 

Barton Reading and Spelling

 

Just as when he was learning to say different sounds and he would try out every sound he knew until he "found" the right one, he's now doing that with phonics. I watch him try out lots of sounds with his mouth until he finds the one that goes with the letter.

[PeterPan]

In my state, special ed students have access to district services up through at least age 21 (might even be 22) even if they have graduated from high school. My district has a transition-to-college program in conjunction with the local CC for students with Asperger's and HFA. Youngest DD might do that if she's academically on a college prep track but not ready to function on her own at college at 18. At 5 3/4 it's way too early to know what she's going to be like as a teen. But I'm glad to know that the program exists.

I didn't know there was such a thing!  Hopefully our psych is going to clarify what we should do on this and how it might pan out, because you're right that it's hard for *us* to guess.

[PeterPan]

Speech therapist for years - currently on break from speech; she worked with him on lots of stuff including LIPS and Earbotics

 

lots of phonological activities from the Florida Center for Reading Research

http://www.fcrr.org/for-educators/sca_k-1.asp

 

Hearbuilder Phonological Awareness at home - this was very difficult, but very helpful

 

Vision therapy - not specifically for reading, but worked on those skills also

 

Barton Reading and Spelling

 

Just as when he was learning to say different sounds and he would try out every sound he knew until he "found" the right one, he's now doing that with phonics. I watch him try out lots of sounds with his mouth until he finds the one that goes with the letter.

Thanks Julie!  

[wapiti]

I'd guess that you'll need to revisit the question in a year when you need to file paperwork and then every year thereafter  :tongue_smilie:.  So much can change this year, in the next few years, and then through puberty, that predictions about what the situation will be in late high school and at the cusp of college may be of limited value right now.  Good luck with the psych testing, your early snapshot.  I don't have any advice on the grade-label issue except to remind you that forward progress is unlikely to occur in a linear fashion  :)

 

[Dmmetler]

Another thought-how common is grade retention and/or red-shirting in your area? In mine, it's so common (a result of mandatory retention based on state 3rd grade reading test scores in combination with usually not referring for LD testing until after the kid has been retained at least once) that most sports and activities go by age, not grade, because otherwise, you end up with really, really BIG kids in with tiny ones. You may find your DS is in good company.

 

[PeterPan]

I'd guess that you'll need to revisit the question in a year when you need to file paperwork and then every year thereafter  :tongue_smilie:.  So much can change this year, in the next few years, and then through puberty, that predictions about what the situation will be in late high school and at the cusp of college may be of limited value right now.  Good luck with the psych testing, your early snapshot.  I don't have any advice on the grade-label issue except to remind you that forward progress is unlikely to occur in a linear fashion  :)

Thank you, you're hilarious but probably very right.   :lol: 

[PeterPan]

Another thought-how common is grade retention and/or red-shirting in your area? In mine, it's so common (a result of mandatory retention based on state 3rd grade reading test scores in combination with usually not referring for LD testing until after the kid has been retained at least once) that most sports and activities go by age, not grade, because otherwise, you end up with really, really BIG kids in with tiny ones. You may find your DS is in good company.

Well that's fascinating!  So what do they do if they kids have a disability and hit that 3rd grade testing?  Our state has some years of testing like that, but we're not required to do it as homeschoolers.  I don't know what the consequences are to the kids.  I think it's how they "grade" the schools, oy.

 

Someone told me that in the wealthier district beside us red-shirting would be EXTREMELY common and that it would not be AT ALL unusual to see 19 yo seniors.  In the less affluent district, she said you'd be more likely to see parents pushing for age-grade or even early (when borderline) enrollment because they can't afford another year of preschool, etc.  So we're right on the line between those two occurrences.

 

And you know, I hadn't thought about it, but you're right.  The gymnastics is all age and what you can do, not grade.  Hmm.

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

Prairie, I have to file for him a year from now. I don't think the process will suit him and I'm pondering switching to using the private school laws. I don't see the point in having someone who doesn't know him sign saying he's performing at ability level. Waste of time.

 

Do you have an option to file him as ungraded?  We have that option in WI.

[wapiti]

Thank you, you're hilarious but probably very right.   :lol: 

 

I didn't mean to be funny there, LOL.  I was just thinking of the strange path of my more 2e-ish ds11, a path that's still cloudy and a long way from completion.  His starting-K snapshot looked like this:  didn't know all the sounds of all the letters, couldn't write except maybe his three-letter first name in all-caps with a fist-grip (he received school OT that year), had a huge speech issue (in therapy till 9), had a language processing glitch that we didn't even know about, had already done a round of OT for SPD with listenting therapy the year before.  He was always advanced in math and his teacher bought number stamps so he could do work on paper.  At the end of K, he jumped two grade levels in reading in about six weeks.  Years later in 6th, the snapshot looks a little different:  language achievement scores (90s percentiles) are slowly catching up toward math (always well into the 99th); types really well, neat handwriting though he still tries to avoid it.  He doesn't read as often as I would like but yet tends to pick more "mature" books.  More than that, though, personality-wise, my small, developmentally-delayed premie, poster child for waiting for K, will surely be the one who wants to bust out of here and be on his own before any of the others  :lol: and I can't imagine him being at a lower grade level at this stage.  But, he's in school, so there's still some sort of "box" associated with grade levels, even though his situation is fairly flexible.

[PeterPan]

Do you have an option to file him as ungraded?  We have that option in WI.

We don't indicate grade at all in our state, only age.  It's more for social purposes (answering queries), determining if I'm teaching him correctly, saying things to him that result in a reasonable long-term expectation.  Social mainly.  For some reason people get kicks coming up to my kid, with his speech problems and everything else, and asking what grade he is and what he's learning in school.  :(

[PeterPan]

I didn't mean to be funny there, LOL.  I was just thinking of the strange path of my more 2e-ish ds11, a path that's still cloudy and a long way from completion.  His starting-K snapshot looked like this:  didn't know all the sounds of all the letters, couldn't write except maybe his three-letter first name in all-caps with a fist-grip (he received school OT that year), had a huge speech issue (in therapy till 9), had a language processing glitch that we didn't even know about, had already done a round of OT for SPD with listenting therapy the year before.  He was always advanced in math and his teacher bought number stamps so he could do work on paper.  At the end of K, he jumped two grade levels in reading in about six weeks.  Years later in 6th, the snapshot looks a little different:  language achievement scores (90s percentiles) are slowly catching up toward math (always well into the 99th); types really well, neat handwriting though he still tries to avoid it.  He doesn't read as often as I would like but yet tends to pick more "mature" books.  More than that, though, personality-wise, my small, developmentally-delayed premie, poster child for waiting for K, will surely be the one who wants to bust out of here and be on his own before any of the others  :lol: and I can't imagine him being at a lower grade level at this stage.  But, he's in school, so there's still some sort of "box" associated with grade levels, even though his situation is fairly flexible.

That's amazing, thanks for sharing!  That's what the OT predicted, that he would jump incremental steps, etc.  

 

If your boy can start K5 that far "behind" and have it pan out, I guess mine can too...   :D

[Crimson Wife]

Well that's fascinating!  So what do they do if they kids have a disability and hit that 3rd grade testing? 

 

In our district, the IEP states whether the child will take the regular state test or an alternative assessment, and what accommodations will be made. I think there is some limit as to what % of students a district can have doing an alternative assessment in order to prevent districts from misclassifying low performers as a gimmick to boost overall scores.

 

[MistyMountain]

My ds is similar but either homeschooling or in school I would not retain him an extra year so that he is 2 years older than some of his peers. It is okay if he isn't working on grade level stuff in some areas. If ds didn't have the skills he needed at the end of kindergarten then I would advocate for extra help and pull outs not retaining him. I would allow him to go with his age mates for activities too because cognitively that is a better fit even if his reading skills are lower. He might learn that his peers are better readers etc but I would tell him that is okay that he has strength they don't have and everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't want him to be a 19 year old senior and nearly 20 at graduation. If he needs an extra year before he goes to college and I was homeschooling then I would deal with it then but I wouldn't plan towards that.

[wapiti]

That's amazing, thanks for sharing!  That's what the OT predicted, that he would jump incremental steps, etc.  

 

If your boy can start K5 that far "behind" and have it pan out, I guess mine can too...   :D

 

Just wanted to reassure your dh that if you should decide it's necessary to down-label the grade at this stage, there's still the possibility that you might up-label the grade later on.  Because, with homeschooling, you can meet him wherever he is at any given point in time :) Maybe it's easier to just leave it for now as normal-grade-for-age?  I don't know...  thinking out loud, I'd consider what I need to tell people socially separately from what I need to put on paper with the school district.

 

p.s. I'm hoping to an official updated snapshot with the psych later this school year even though it probably won't have much affect on his schooling - it depends on how it turns out.

[8filltheheart]

In my state, special ed students have access to district services up through at least age 21 (might even be 22) even if they have graduated from high school. My district has a transition-to-college program in conjunction with the local CC for students with Asperger's and HFA. Youngest DD might do that if she's academically on a college prep track but not ready to function on her own at college at 18. At 5 3/4 it's way too early to know what she's going to be like as a teen. But I'm glad to know that the program exists.

That is an amazing resource that is definitely not available everywhere. Our ds did participate in a program for Aspies and HFA that was in conjunction with a local CC, but we had to pay $16,000/yr for the service. All of the other students were ps grads whose parents lamented that the school system offered zero transition to life beyond high school graduation other than a piece of paper with lists of objectives, goals, and resources that they could seek on their own.

[Violet Crown]

We've red-shirted Wee Girl, who would be in second grade by age in our ISD. But she has a mid-July birthday, barely speaks, is very fearful of new experiences, and had her writing badly delayed by (and this was odd) learning to read before she could speak--so she didn't really make the crucial sound-to-letter connection. Plus lots of time on speech therapy and trying to desensitize her from her various anxieties and weird phobias.

 

All this means practically for us is that she's doing a first-grade curriculum--definitely the right level for her--in everything but math, where she's wrapping up fractions and about to start pre-algebra. :)

[Dmmetler]

Well that's fascinating! So what do they do if they kids have a disability and hit that 3rd grade testing? Our state has some years of testing like that, but we're not required to do it as homeschoolers. I don't know what the consequences are to the kids. I think it's how they "grade" the schools, oy.

 

Someone told me that in the wealthier district beside us red-shirting would be EXTREMELY common and that it would not be AT ALL unusual to see 19 yo seniors. In the less affluent district, she said you'd be more likely to see parents pushing for age-grade or even early (when borderline) enrollment because they can't afford another year of preschool, etc. So we're right on the line between those two occurrences.

 

And you know, I hadn't thought about it, but you're right. The gymnastics is all age and what you can do, not grade. Hmm.

If a child is classified, they'll either get accommodations on the test, test at their ability level, not their grade level (so take a 1st grade test in 3rd), or do an alternative assessment, and won't be retained as long as they're meeting their IEP. The kids who get stuck are those who don't have disabilities diagnosed,but fail anyway. Since usually a kid won't be tested until they've been retained once, that's one reason why teachers often push for retaining in K or 1st-if the retention doesn't do it, then they can be ID'd before 3rd. I can think of two polite, quiet, well-behaved girls who weren't tested until they failed the third grade test 2 years in a row. Both ended up having fairly severe learning issues, but because of their behavior, they'd slipped through the cracks. If they'd been noisy, active little boys, they'd have been retained in K, and probably tested in 1st grade.

[Zoo Keeper]

We don't indicate grade at all in our state, only age.  It's more for social purposes (answering queries), determining if I'm teaching him correctly, saying things to him that result in a reasonable long-term expectation.  Social mainly.  For some reason people get kicks coming up to my kid, with his speech problems and everything else, and asking what grade he is and what he's learning in school.   :(

 

My state doesn't require me to indicate a grade either, just "age appropriate instruction."  In theory, this gives a lot of flexibility, but in my area, most church activities, rec league sports, reading programs at the library, etc. are slotted by GRADE.  So, for my guy, some sort of grade designation is necessary for his social life. :)

 

  I started my 2E boy in K at age five, but I wish I hadn't. In hindsight, I really, really, wish I had given him an extra year without "expectations" (whether it was mine or someone else's).   His phonetic/writing skills have been so SLOW to develop.  I kept advancing him, thinking that whatever maturity I was waiting for would kick in, but by 2nd grade his turtle like advancement was affecting his testing ability ( I do a standardized test every other year)--at the END of the 2nd grade year he tested (in reading/writing/phonics) like a child who had not even started 2nd grade. And even worse, he was starting to feel "stupid", especially when compared to his friends in Sunday school (who could write on their little papers by themselves and do Bible reading out loud in class).   So, I told him he simply hadn't finished all this second grade stuff yet, and we did a second 2nd grade year.  He's in 3rd this year, and I'm glad I held him back.  If anything else, it helps ME as a teacher remember that his ability to do ___ is not at "grade level."  He is still on the older end of things for his grade level, but it has not been a social issue for him yet.  I figured it would be easier for him to adjust grade-wise now, than when he is in jr. high and everything is a much bigger deal emotionally. 

 

He is making progress, it just doesn't look like anyone's else's progress chart. 

[Crimson Wife]

That is an amazing resource that is definitely not available everywhere. Our ds did participate in a program for Aspies and HFA that was in conjunction with a local CC, but we had to pay $16,000/yr for the service. All of the other students were ps grads whose parents lamented that the school system offered zero transition to life beyond high school graduation other than a piece of paper with lists of objectives, goals, and resources that they could seek on their own.

 

I actually looked into the program a bit more today out of curiosity. It must be run in conjunction with the Regional Center (part of the state Dept. of Disabilities) as well as the school district and CC because there is a charge for participants who are not Regional Center clients. The young adults attend 1 to 4 days per week depending on which of the 4 areas they need help with (social skills, independent living skills, cognitive development/academic preparation, and career exploration). So if my DD were academically prepared for college work but needed help with the other 3 areas, then she'd presumably go 3 days/week. There is also a life skills program for the developmentally disabled with a more vocational focus if it turned out college wasn't a realistic option for her. She's so young that it's anybody's guess how much she'll improve in terms of her functioning level.

[Lecka]

OhElizabeth -- Just to let you know, the rationale for social promotion for special needs, to a great extent, is to give kids a chance to learn appropriate social skills for their age by being with kids of their age.  It is not the same as giving up hope, I am sorry if it comes across that way.  

 

What is true, is that it can get harder for kids to join their age in school, when they have not been with their age, sometimes, b/c they have missed out socially.

 

There is also a thing I have read, where there is a hierarchy of "language, social skills, reading" (this is from a Pete Wright book I read recently) where people think the hierarchy of needs for kids is "language, social skills, reading."  This means -- language is most important, then social skills, then reading.  Not that reading is not important -- but that it is appropriate to pick social skills for a child by having them be with peers, as opposed to pulling them from being with peers to work on more academic skills.  It also acknowledges a lot of theories now about how social skills play into academic skills -- especially reading comprehension.  So for a child at risk of having problems with reading comprehension, then social skills are important to academics, if that makes sense from my explanation.  

 

This is not the same as giving up -- it is more a matter of priorities.  This is the kind of thought process this is based on -- the thought process is not that you are giving up.  Alongside that -- is the idea of accommodations so that children can access the material, maybe not at the same level.  When they gain more skills -- they can take those skills back to the material that they have learned.  

 

I am not sure if I am explaining this well -- but it is similar to the idea that you can read to kids at a higher level, than they can read to themselves, if they are slower to gain their reading skills.  

 

I do not characterize that as "giving up on the child learning to read."  I am teaching my kid to read, and I am exposing him to ideas at a higher level -- the two things go together.  This is the comparison that makes sense to me.  

 

I am also going to tell you a secret about signing up for camps and things like that.  For a lot of ages, you can easily call them and say "could I put my son in the younger age group, he is on the line" or "could I put my son in the older age group, he is on the line."  My older son has an April birthday making him on the young side, and there are times I have wanted him in the younger group, especially for things involving motor skills.  Well -- it has never been a problem.  I am sure there would be times here and there that they would say no, but it has been something that worked out fine for me every time I asked.  People would just like to have the groups work out to have fairly similar skill/attention levels, and when I am calling and saying "I know he belongs in the younger group" it has seemed like people are happy to say "no problem."  Another thing to look for is things with an age range, and always pick things where he is the youngest in the age range, or the oldest in the age range, whichever you think will be more appropriate.  There are some that group kids 1st-2nd, some 1st-3rd, and some K-1st.  When my son was in 1st I would not consider having him be the youngest in a 1st-3rd grouping, but K-1st would probably be a good fit for him.  A lot of things are like that, when you look into them.  

 

Anyway though -- overall, the rationale is that social development is important and also needed for academics.... so the thing of keeping kids with their age level, is for that reason, it is not because of giving up.  They are just not the same thing!

 

I agree -- it IS giving up that all problems would be solved by holding the child back one year.  That IS true.  Now -- is that the same as giving up -- I say, no, not the same.  But, I think sometimes it can be the same as giving up on the idea that there is a really clear-cut one-year difference, across the board, just a maturity thing, and that one year will make the difference, and no extra help or accommodation will be needed after one year.  

 

Yes -- that is different.  There are times when people think, and it is true, that just being one year lower will be the right choice and everything will fit then.  It happens a lot.  

 

It is true that staying in grade level this way does mean, you think it is not just a one-year maturity or slightly-slightly-behind thing.  

 

So, I have given up on that idea.  Yes.  That is not the case for my younger son.

 

Does it mean I am giving up on academics and just want him to hang out at school?  No, no, no.  Does it mean I don't think he will gain skills later that are past Kindergarten skills?  No.  Does it mean I think that, just b/c he is not learning things at quite the same level as other kids, that he is not learning at all and it is useless?  No.  I also think, honestly, that he is picking up a lot, even if he is not showing it, if that makes sense.  I think we cannot know right now, just how much he is benefiting from K.  With some kids you know, b/c they are showing it in obvious ways.  With some kids, it can be percolating and percolating -- but you may not see it until later.  Of course not if the material is way too hard and they can't access the material at all -- but if there are signs that it is the right level -- then why would I not think it?  (Btw -- this is an overstatement -- we are seeing a lot of good things with my son in K, he is doing a lot of things he didn't do in pre-school, we think a lot of it is that he is around K kids and he is being exposed to K things now, instead of pre-school kids and pre-school curriculum.  Though some of his skills are at a pre-school level, that doesn't mean that he can't also learn a lot of things at K level.)

 

So much of it is just having a belief in exposing children to things, and trusting them to learn, too.  And again -- for me this is just like reading books at a higher level to a child who is decoding at a lower level but can still listen and learn.  

 

To me, giving up would be just covering the same stuff over and over, and in a half-hearted way.  

 

That is not what your situation is ------ I am just explaining how I do not view it as giving up.

 

Separately -- I just had a thought -- for the next bit of time, I think you can tell people he is 5 or 6, and you haven't decided if this year is K or pre-K.  Or you could just say one or the other -- and then next year, say you have decided that he is doing x again or going to go ahead and do y.  I *cannot imagine* that this would be a big deal or a problem.  Things change, it is flexible.  For church stuff -- if he is entrenched in his cohort, you can choose to keep him in his cohort and discuss things as they come up.  Or, you can decide that it is a better decision to move him to the younger group of kids.  Then maybe when he is 9 you decide to move him to the older group of kids.  Really -- I do this with my older son who has an official grade level and attends public school -- it is just not a big deal.  I am sure it will matter more for some cut-off things, when there has to be a certain age, and getting into high school.  But that is such a long time away, if you need to you might adjust later, but I am thinking of elementary school, I guess, and there are not too many things that require more than Kindergarten here (lots of things require kids to have attended Kindergarten or be that age, for some reason).  Maybe that will start again with 6th grade, I don't know.  (Edit -- I would try to place him for a social fit, or a clearly good fit ----- I wouldn't try to place him by his reading level.  Or , alternately, place him where he will get the most out of Sunday School and don't worry about the social fit.  I bet one or the other will seem like the right thing.)  

[PeterPan]

Lecka, those are terrific ideas and I really appreciate the explanations!  And you're right, I hadn't thought about it but things like camp are easy to solve either with the phone call, as you say, or by sending him a year that makes him on the older/younger end and a more appropriate fit.  We've done similar things with dd, only in reverse.

 

Your analogies on the social skills are very interesting.  Right now he's hanging with mostly preschoolers because of the nature of the YMCA programs, but you're right it would be curious to see what happens if he were in with a group of older kids, hmm.  (K5-1st instead of PK3 and PK4 with a few K5)  That wasn't a choice of what age he fits with, btw, just what programs are offered when and where he fits for motor planning (especially on the swimming, oy). Actually, in gymnastics he holds his own in classes with much older kids and blends in pretty well.  He's in some classes with 5-7 yos in the evenings and was in the older boys section one time and did fine.  

[Tokyomarie]

Marie, suddenly everything you're saying MAKES SENSE. Thank you. :)

 

So then how would you handle it if the plan was a 13th year, largely cc, still called high school, but NOT with a formal middle college program available? Would you grad with a party at 12 the or after 13th?

 

Both of our younger children had a "13th year." Our daughter was on track for graduation at the typical age because we kept her with her American age group when we moved back to the States. She was on track for graduation, credit wise, but was not on track for admission to a competitive college and was not ready socially to leave home. During the 1st semester of her 11th grade year, her academic maturity suddenly took a huge leap and I had to rethink the goals for post-high school studies. We decided then to add another year. During what would have been her 12th grade year, she decided to "graduate" from the homeschool co-op and to not continue in the homeschool band when her best friend graduated. But we gave her a graduation party and her diploma the next year, after her 13th year. It was a little awkward at first but once we got into the last year it wasn't really a problem. She understood that continuing to study at home/in CC/online one more year would give her more options for where she went to college the following year. 

 

I think if it is decided earlier in the educational process to add another year, there is more time to adjust the thinking about what the social situation will be.

[PeterPan]

Both of our younger children had a "13th year." Our daughter was on track for graduation at the typical age because we kept her with her American age group when we moved back to the States. She was on track for graduation, credit wise, but was not on track for admission to a competitive college and was not ready socially to leave home. During the 1st semester of her 11th grade year, her academic maturity suddenly took a huge leap and I had to rethink the goals for post-high school studies. We decided then to add another year. During what would have been her 12th grade year, she decided to "graduate" from the homeschool co-op and to not continue in the homeschool band when her best friend graduated. But we gave her a graduation party and her diploma the next year, after her 13th year. It was a little awkward at first but once we got into the last year it wasn't really a problem. She understood that continuing to study at home/in CC/online one more year would give her more options for where she went to college the following year. 

 

I think if it is decided earlier in the educational process to add another year, there is more time to adjust the thinking about what the social situation will be.

So then for her transcript you listed all 5 years of work or just the last 4?  

[MistyMountain]

They are not suppose to give up on kids that are below grade level. In my area they have three tiers and kids that are struggling get placed in a tier with the kids who are the most behind getting the most help and extra pull out support. I am not crazy about the help. They use sight word heavy methods and the help is more time with that. The motto is a years progress in a years time. They didn't really seem to understand when I was asking what do they do about about kids who can be possibly gifted but they had learning disabilities that make them below grade level.

 

For activities I bet your ds will get along fine with older kids especially the way he thinks and the things that interest him. In my kids church group there are a few Waldorf kids who are not reading and writing and they have been fine with the kids that are.

 

My ds also isn't consistently always able to tell 9. He sometimes can and sometime forgets. His math is all over the place too.

 

Your kindergarten sounds more than fine to me. I know my ds would like it.

[bluedarling]

With my oldest we adjusted/repeated 8th because he didn't seem ready for any high school materials.   This year I am trying to decide whether to call him repeat 10th or 11th (because he's doing the exact same material as his 10th grade brother!! plus they will start dual enrollment next year and that would give him 2 years of dual enrollment.)  He is more mature than his brother being 2 years older, but is still working at the same level as him.   The 8th grade retention was painless for the most part.  He even agreed to a 2nd retention without a second thought.  Seeing his age-mates start dual enrollment, etc, seems to have been motivating to him.  I'm sure this would depend on the personality of the child, though.  I don't regret the first retention at all...but retaining a 2nd time has me questioning my sanity!