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AoPS and Saxon Algebra - oh my


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My older son had a meltdown earlier this week during the review problems of Chapter 2 in AoPS Intro to Algebra, as he was having issues with the retention of material.  So I borrowed Saxon Algebra from a friend.  My son agreed to give it a one week trial.  He is not the kid for whom I originally got AoPS, though he hung in there gamely all through the pre-A.  I have Lials Beginning and Intermediate Algebra on the shelf, but I dislike how heavy the book is and how cluttered the pages are.  Saxon is pretty clean looking and does not weigh 20 pounds. 

 

I have never been a Saxon fan, but my older son appears to need more review than AoPS will give, and the higher the math goes, the more difficult it is for this humanities mama to cherry pick review and extra practice problems from other resources.  One can only balance so many heavy books on her lap, you know?  We took a journey through Kahn, as well.  I am secretly hoping that older son likes Saxon and agrees to continue with it.  I do have the Art Reed DVDs from my friend, as well.  It has been a frustrating week.

 

I never planned to be an Algebra teacher...sigh.

 

ETA:  I think I want some sympathy or something.  I am feeling a bit lost. 

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:grouphug:  Here are some hugs!

 

Texasmama, what Math were you using in the Elementary grades for DS, and did that connect well for him?

 

I ask, because we might be able to point you towards a high school math program that might be similar in presentation or perspective to what you used in the elementary grades and would be a more "natural fit" for DS.

 

For example, DS#1 here in elementary/middle school grades used Miquon and then Singapore and loved both. For Algebra and Geometry he really clicked with Jacobs. (Another program that is clean-not-cluttered; incremental; with fun/interesting real-world connections for the topic of each lesson.)

 

Just curious! Not trying to problem-solve, if empathy is what is most needed in this situation. ;) Warmest regards, Lori D.

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Okay, I have this Algebra 1 text by Foerster:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Algebra-1-Expressions-Equasions-Applications/dp/020125073X/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411594509&sr=1-4&keywords=algebra+1+paul+forester

 

It is the teacher's edition.  I could get the student text easily.

 

I do not have Jacobs, and it is pricy.  Wow, really pricy. 

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Well, last thing I want to do is muddy your waters (or cost you a bunch of money!) but I really like Jacobs.  I suspect it will be the primary math spine here for Alg 1, although we haven't given up on the idea of using AoPS as a supplement for hard problems, once the concept has been introduced and practiced.  From other posts of yours describing this ds, I suspect it might be a good fit for him, too . . . 

 

But I hear good things about Foerster's too!

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Well, last thing I want to do is muddy your waters (or cost you a bunch of money!) but I really like Jacobs.  I suspect it will be the primary math spine here for Alg 1, although we haven't given up on the idea of using AoPS as a supplement for hard problems, once the concept has been introduced and practiced.  From other posts of yours describing this ds, I suspect it might be a good fit for him, too . . . 

 

But I hear good things about Foerster's too!

My waters are already muddy, so I don't mind that.  But dang, why is Jacobs so expensive???  I just ordered a Foerster's student text for .61 plus $3.99 shipping on amazon to match my teacher's edition.  What the heck is going on with Jacobs?

 

BTW, I have an Algebra text by RUSSELL Jacobs.   Close enough?  (kidding...)

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For what it's worth ch 2 was a real eye opener to how different aops is set up. My kids bombed the review.

 

I realized they had skimmed the lessons and not actually worked through the sample problems. They had to go back and redo ch 1 and then redo ch 2. It was worth the time to get them to see the importance of working out the problems.

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For what it's worth ch 2 was a real eye opener to how different aops is set up. My kids bombed the review.

 

I realized they had skimmed the lessons and not actually worked through the sample problems. They had to go back and redo ch 1 and then redo ch 2. It was worth the time to get them to see the importance of working out the problems.

Thank you for this.  It is helpful for the student I still have in AoPS. 

 

It is bad that I am very relieved to hear that someone else's kids bombed the review?  Ds2 isn't doing stellar, but he is able to focus, go back, receive instruction from me and then integrate what he is learning.  Ds1 gets overwhelmed, feels stupid and quits.  :(

 

I am looking at a university model school for him next year for science and math so my goal for this year is to give him a solid foundation in algebra to prepare him for that. 

 

I will be ever so happy to hand off my kids' math education to someone else.

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Jacobs is switching publishers and was OOP for a while. The price was enough to dissuade me from buying a copy to look through, so I haven't examined it closely.

 

If you do stick with Saxon, this class is a nice accompaniment. It includes lectures and automatic grading of the homework (2 full sets, 2 with just the new concept per week) and tests:

 

http://www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.com/course/category.php?id=65

 

We ended up with Saxon for a season too. It's not my ideal, but it eliminates the conflict that math was becoming. It's also taught T that you can't forget the units of measure or not reduce. The answer is the answer and the computer will give you a red X until you give it the EXACT answer.

 

I hope to go back to DM some day. If we can't use it as the spine, I at least want to use the Challenging problems over the summer. Saxon's not a mental workout, but it does teach good habits and builds bit by bit. Maybe it's just the 11 yo mind. I do remember being even more difficult than T at this age, so I really can't complain. But, I have to teach the kid I've got, not the kid I'd like to have.

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Jacobs is switching publishers and was OOP for a while. The price was enough to dissuade me from buying a copy to look through, so I haven't examined it closely.

 

Ahhh, that makes sense now.

If you do stick with Saxon, this class is a nice accompaniment. It includes lectures and automatic grading of the homework (2 full sets, 2 with just the new concept per week) and tests:

 

http://www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.com/course/category.php?id=65

 

Thank you for the link.  I will check it out.

We ended up with Saxon for a season too. It's not my ideal, but it eliminates the conflict that math was becoming. It's also taught T that you can't forget the units of measure or not reduce. The answer is the answer and the computer will give you a red X until you give it the EXACT answer.

 

I hope to go back to DM some day. If we can't use it as the spine, I at least want to use the Challenging problems over the summer. Saxon's not a mental workout, but it does teach good habits and builds bit by bit. Maybe it's just the 11 yo mind. I do remember being even more difficult than T at this age, so I really can't complain. But, I have to teach the kid I've got, not the kid I'd like to have.

So much yes to your last bolded sentence.  This is actually my 13 yo (14 next month).  Math is a clear strength for him, but his retention is not stellar.  He is not quite NT but with no diagnosis other than SPD.  I think the spiral, incremental, review approach which makes Saxon a beat-down for many kids might be what he needs.  I am open to looking at other programs, too, though.  I just need this kid to cement Algebra in his brain. 

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I wouldn't spend the $$ on Jacobs if your child will do well with Foerster.   FWIW, they are very comparable and Jacobs  actually does not have an alg 2 book and recommends Foerster for alg 2.  

 

FWIW, my kids did not like Jacobs b/c he is wordy compared to Foerster.   They liked the concise explanations that Foerster offers.

 

Another fwiw, I would't fret about not using AoPS.    Foerster is a rock solid preparation for applied math concepts.

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Thank you for this.  It is helpful for the student I still have in AoPS. 

 

It is bad that I am very relieved to hear that someone else's kids bombed the review?  Ds2 isn't doing stellar, but he is able to focus, go back, receive instruction from me and then integrate what he is learning.  Ds1 gets overwhelmed, feels stupid and quits.  :(

 

I am looking at a university model school for him next year for science and math so my goal for this year is to give him a solid foundation in algebra to prepare him for that. 

 

I will be ever so happy to hand off my kids' math education to someone else.

 

No it's not bad.  I'm glad that they did poorly on that review, because it gave them a recalibration on how they needed to use the text.  Other math books may be set up such that the concept is taught, and a couple samples are given (which the student can skim over).  That isn't how AOPS is written.  A student needs to actually work out the problems in the lesson, even if they only get part of the way to the solution.  Then they are in a position to benefit from the explanation.

 

I found that without this active working out, the student just wasn't in a position to engage properly with the explanations.

 

In no way do I think that AOPS is a math panacea.  Nor do I think that it's the best or only answer for math, not even for strong or gifted math students.  But I do think that it is designed to be used a certain way and understanding that can give better success with it.  In the same way, Saxon is written with certain expectations (ex. not skipping problems) and alterations may lead to issues as a student gets further through the book.

 

Also, there is nothing wrong with saying that a student needs more practice with something.  We had to divert to a couple chapters of Dolciani when I decided the older kids hadn't really understood how to multiply polynomials.  This hurt them when it came time to factor and do quadratics.  Similarly, I dipped into an AOPS book with my youngest when he was hitting his head against a wall in probability.  He just needed to see a different explanation.

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Foerster's is my favorite algebra book...EVER. It is excellent for both the hare and the tortoise: the gifted student who blazes through without looking back and the student who needs a simple, steady approach.

 

Dd16 (tortoise) completed all of Foerster's Algebra then moved onto Saxon Algebra 2.

Ds 14 (tortoise that loves precipices and steep trails) completed AoPS Intro to Algebra ch. 1-12 independently (oh, how I wanted him to take Foerster's, but he thrived on AoPS from the beginning) then went into the AoPS Algebra 2 online course.

Ds 12 (hare) completed Foerster's Algebra ch. 1-7 then went into the AoPS Algebra 1 online course.

 

 

The rest of my children will do Foerster's Algebra then they may move on to whatever they prefer...but definitely Foerster's first!

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I wouldn't spend the $$ on Jacobs if your child will do well with Foerster.   FWIW, they are very comparable and Jacobs  actually does not have an alg 2 book and recommends Foerster for alg 2.  

 

That is a good endorsement.

 

FWIW, my kids did not like Jacobs b/c he is wordy compared to Foerster.   They liked the concise explanations that Foerster offers.

 

Interesting.  This ds would likely fall into this category.  He is a "man of few words" himself.  ;)

 

Another fwiw, I would't fret about not using AoPS.    Foerster is a rock solid preparation for applied math concepts.

Not at all bothered by not using AoPS with this kid.  I am surprised he lasted this long, in fact.  I tried to get him to switch to another program for Algebra, but he is resistant to change so I let him start the AoPS Intro to Algebra since he had completed the AoPS pre-A.  He is more open to change now and worked in the Saxon text quite nicely today. 

 

As I glance at my Foerster's teacher's edition, it seems very user friendly even for a non-mathy parent instructor like myself.  I will finish out this week with Saxon and by next week I hope to have the Foerster's student text in hand. (ordered it this evening from Amazon)  I lean toward starting the text at the beginning for the review and for developing familiarity with the presentation prior to embarking on new concepts. 

 

After a year of dealing with sibling rivalry between my two boys as they worked through the AoPS pre-A together, I look forward to breaking them apart.  It has been my goal since the end of last year, but I could not get ds1 on board with switching programs.  I am glad he got a taste of AoPS, and I will be glad to move on.  He does not know yet that we will be moving on permanently.  He thinks we are taking a short detour.  That is best for now.  Once he experiences a different program (Saxon or another one), I think it will not be a hard sell.  I will say, though, that my head was spinning working with two students in two different Algebra programs simultaneously today so I will need to figure out a method to stagger them or something.  Ds2 is mostly independent, but I use the chapter reviews to check his mastery of the concepts, and that is what he was doing today as I worked at elbow with ds1 on Saxon to get him comfortable with the text.

 

Thanks for the helpful suggestions and support.  I appreciate it so much.

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No it's not bad.  I'm glad that they did poorly on that review, because it gave them a recalibration on how they needed to use the text.  Other math books may be set up such that the concept is taught, and a couple samples are given (which the student can skim over).  That isn't how AOPS is written.  A student needs to actually work out the problems in the lesson, even if they only get part of the way to the solution.  Then they are in a position to benefit from the explanation.

 

I found that without this active working out, the student just wasn't in a position to engage properly with the explanations.

 

In no way do I think that AOPS is a math panacea.  Nor do I think that it's the best or only answer for math, not even for strong or gifted math students.  But I do think that it is designed to be used a certain way and understanding that can give better success with it.  In the same way, Saxon is written with certain expectations (ex. not skipping problems) and alterations may lead to issues as a student gets further through the book.

 

Also, there is nothing wrong with saying that a student needs more practice with something.  We had to divert to a couple chapters of Dolciani when I decided the older kids hadn't really understood how to multiply polynomials.  This hurt them when it came time to factor and do quadratics.  Similarly, I dipped into an AOPS book with my youngest when he was hitting his head against a wall in probability.  He just needed to see a different explanation.

I will be discussing this with ds2 as he moves forward.  Very helpful.

 

Re: more practice, we took a six week trek through Keys to Algebra and Real World Algebra last year in the middle of Chapter 5 of AoPS pre-A.  It made all the difference. 

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Fwiw, I'd choose Foerster for a kid like your oldest DS over Jacobs. ;) DD/9th didn't like the AoPS samples and wrinkled her nose at Jacobs, but she loved Foerster. It has harder word problems than Jacobs, but it's easy to teach, user friendly, and straight to the point.

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Foerster's is my favorite algebra book...EVER. It is excellent for both the hare and the tortoise: the gifted student who blazes through without looking back and the student who needs a simple, steady approach.

 

Dd16 (tortoise) completed all of Foerster's Algebra then moved onto Saxon Algebra 2.

Ds 14 (tortoise that loves precipices and steep trails) completed AoPS Intro to Algebra ch. 1-12 independently (oh, how I wanted him to take Foerster's, but he thrived on AoPS from the beginning) then went into the AoPS Algebra 2 online course.

Ds 12 (hare) completed Foerster's Algebra ch. 1-7 then went into the AoPS Algebra 1 online course.

 

 

The rest of my children will do Foerster's Algebra then they may move on to whatever they prefer...but definitely Foerster's first!

This is fascinating.

 

Interestingly, I spoke of the tortoise and the hare to ds1 today.  I explained to him that while I am not gifted at math, I have a slow and steady, methodical, constantly double checking, don't take any shortcuts approach which gets me the correct answer just like the tortoise did to win the race.  Ds still has memories of his years in Singapore, and I am working with him on understanding that there will be absolutely no mental math or skipped steps at this point in the game.  Ds is actually a tortoise, but he has sloppy work habits which need addressing.   This is the case regardless of the text he uses, and I was able to get him to agree today to always copy the problem exactly as is first.  What I bring to the "math table" is that methodical approach.  Because I must work it this way, and this is very ingrained in me, I can easily teach it that way.  I don't mind teaching it as long as I have an understanding of it.  I keep looking for the ledge to fall over, though.  ;)  (only the smiley should look really scared) 

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Fwiw, I'd choose Foerster for a kid like your oldest DS over Jacobs. ;) DD/9th didn't like the AoPS samples and wrinkled her nose at Jacobs, but she loved Foerster. It has harder word problems than Jacobs, but it's easy to teach, user friendly, and straight to the point.

Well, I like that, and so does my pocketbook.  ;)

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Yes, I think you're right about the wordiness and my ds1. 

 

He just asked what I was doing on the computer, and I told him that I am looking at other algebra programs.  He told me that he does not want to switch from AoPS.  Baby steps...

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I think Foerster sounds like a great choice for you. I have both. I'll be using Jacobs (got it used with solution manual for $30, and that was a great deal) for my oldest because he's young and will appreciate the humor and the long explanations. It is a THICK book compared to Foerster though. Foerster has some humor too, though I doubt my son would have noticed it. One word problem started out, "Olivia, Newt, and John..." :lol:

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lol!  I would enjoy the ONJ reference anyway...

 

Ds1 stated today that he likes Saxon.  "It's easy", he says.  lol  I told him I have another Algebra coming in the mail.  Don't want him to get married to Saxon.  I think I will prefer Foerster's and we will likely make the switch.  Saxon has been good to build confidence, though.

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I recently switched my 8th grader from AoPS Algebra to Foersters. We both wanted AoPS to work for him, but I really feared that he would make minimal progress through the book. He does think that Foersters is boring compared to AoPS (we used Pre-Algebra last year) but he appreciates the streamlined text and it is really the better level of challenge for him.

 

I am glad to read so many positive reviews of Foersters. It is really hard to let go of AoPS.

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I'll just put another plug in for Foerster. My daughter dislikes math but tolerates Foerster. The word problems really are very good. They're challenging, but the author leads you through them step by step.  We go through the lesson, working the problems on a white board, then do the 'oral practice', then I have my daughter do a selection of the problems (usually odds, but all word problems). Usually the final 5-10 problems of the lesson are a mixed review.  She's good at manipulating equations and factoring polynomials and such, but word problems are tricky for my girl.  Foerster is helping.

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I recently switched my 8th grader from AoPS Algebra to Foersters. We both wanted AoPS to work for him, but I really feared that he would make minimal progress through the book. He does think that Foersters is boring compared to AoPS (we used Pre-Algebra last year) but he appreciates the streamlined text and it is really the better level of challenge for him.

 

I am glad to read so many positive reviews of Foersters. It is really hard to let go of AoPS.

 

It is hard to let go of AoPS. :)

 

I have two mathy dds... one did about 3/4 of Number Theory, then decided she wanted a regular curriculum for Algebra - she did Foersters and did very well.  She's not interested in doing AoPS again (although she's loving the IMACs class she's taking)

 

Younger dd went from Singapore right to AoPS Pre-A online.  She did very well in the classes, but I was worried about the pace of the Algebra classes, so we did the book ourselves at a slower pace.  But by the end of the book I was noticing that although she did well with the problem sets she had trouble doing things from earlier in the book without prompting - I felt like she needed more practice.

 

So this year she's doing Geometry with Jurgenson, and I'm having her review Alg1 with Khan and the Alg1 Alcumus problems (which she did at the beginning but we'd slacked off on).  She still loves Alcumus, and I think misses AoPS.  But I think it's not good for her first and only exposure - I think maybe she should take a "regular" course and then do the AoPS after (like I'd say most of the kids taking AoPS are doing - most of them take it in school and then take the AoPS class... or the reverse.)  So I'm thinking of signing her up for AlgII with AoPS online in the spring.  She's already done most of that half of the book, but not the Alcumus part and they'd give her new problem sets.  And with previous exposure, I think she could handle the pace.

 

If that goes well, then I'm wondering if I could alternate/overlap a 'regular' text with AoPS classes....

 

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It sounds like you are narrowing down your decision, but our experience last year w/ DD12/13 (Pre-A) was that she started in AOPS, which I thought she'd do well with...but she hated it with a strong passion and so I switched her to Saxon, not expecting her to like it.  But I thought the spiral might help, at least I hoped so, but I'd heard some negative things so I wasn't sure.  Welp, to my great surprise, she loved it (uncluttered, clear, straightforward, etc).  It wasn't that it was easy for her though.  It was the style of math that she felt at ease with.  She loved it so much that she asked me to keep her in Saxon this year for Alg 1; another super surprise.  So I did, and since at some point this year she will outpace my Alg knowledge, I went ahead and bought the DVDs that teach the lesson.  She watches the lesson, then does the work and is totally excelling and retaining.  I have some Dolciani texts that I would have preferred her to at least consider, but the Saxon thing is working.  They are all different, but I just thought I'd recommend it since you were considering it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just wanted to give an update two weeks into Foerster's Algebra.  I love it.  The notes in the margin of the teacher's text are very helpful.  It is a clean-looking book.  The explanations are straight-forward.  It is thorough.

 

Ds is...adjusting.  ;)  He says it is "too easy"  (Yes, dear, this is mostly review!). He says the text doesn't explain things well.  Not true.  This kid does not do new or different.  And this is new and different.  He gives me flak about it, and I had had a couple of talks with him about this.

 

Overall, I think it is a great choice for him.  He will like it someday - oh yes, he will.  When he complained about the text, I told him that all the smart folks at TWTM recommend it highly.  That was shocking to him.  I made him admit that he might not know quite as much as you folks here about Algebra texts. ;)

 

Also, this is an inexpensive program to use.  I already had the teacher's text, and the student text cost me under $5, including shipping.

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texasmama, I am glad that you are happy with the switch.  We are, too.

 

I have the solutions manual but not the Teacher's Edition.  Can you give me a bit of insight into the Teacher's Edition? 

It is identical to the student text, but it also has the answers and notes to the teacher in the margin, including "blackboard activities" in which you demonstrate a concept.  It is very clear and user friendly, and I am qualified to say this because math is my second language. :)  It also has notes such as "The greatest difficulty students have with scientific notation is figuring which way to move the decimal point....etc."  It goes on to explain how the student can remember this.  Helpful to teacher and to student.  :)

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I was afraid to try Saxon because of stuff people have said, but I could not be more pleased.  DS is now in Algebra 2.  It's working out so well.  I like the support materials that are available.

 

This is us, exactly.  Except with two kids and we are not quite to Alg 2.  2nd year for us and they are rockin' it out. lol  I am the most surprised of all, but so happy.  And yes, for DD at least, the support materials have been what has 'made' her math experience this year.

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