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Learning to read with CAPD


PeterPan
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Ok, just roll with me here, because we don't have a diagnosis on that.  We just no he did horribly on the screening tool.  He was at 16th percentile on gluing sounds together to make a word. Did your CAPD/APD dc test low like that, and if so how did you teach them to read?  

 

See, if he can't turn component sounds into a word, then there's NO WAY he can sound out to read.  Can't physically happen.  Even if he starts to sound out, he won't be able to read.

 

How is Barton supposedly so good for that?  (per her website)  And what did you end up doing?  What is PACE/Learning RX doing for it that is supposedly making it come together?  

 

I don't know, just totally flummoxed here with what that can mean.  Or do not all CAPD/APD individuals even HAVE that issue?  Maybe many CAPD kids have NO issue learning to read??

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OhElizabeth -- maybe you already know this, lol, but my older son had know ability to blend when he finished Kindergarten, did not even understand what he was being asked to do.

 

Now ---- I can only talk about my own son.  But sight-based methods would be gibberish for him.  He couldn't memorize sight words either!!!!!!!!!  At the end of Kindergarten he was assessed as knowing 17 sight words including "a" and "I."  

 

Anyway -- he is now reading on a 4th grade level.  He just had MAP testing again and I don't know the result, but I know he is in line with most of his friends, with a few friends much higher -- this year in 4th is the first time he has seemed to know everyone else's lexile level for whatever reason.  

 

Anyway -- speech therapy, reading remediation.  It is slow, slow, slow to learn, but he can read fluently now.  I don't know if he will read as fast as other kids as he gets older, but he is on target for "oral reading fluency" rates through 3rd grade.  Honestly I think he is doing pretty good!  

 

Now -- I have never gone anywhere with apd/capd with him -- b/c he made so much progress while he was still too young for formal testing.  Did he definitely have all those kinds of things like "can't blend" and "can't tell apart some sounds"?  Yes.  With the testing he had -- they told me "phonological processing."  

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I guess what I'm shocked by is I didn't realize it would be this bad.  I knew he didn't hear sounds, but it's like the whole kind of process just isn't turned on in there.  I'm not even sure that's typical of dyslexia, is it?  I really don't know.  I'm trying to read the Mather/Goldstein book on Learning Disabilities right now to understand this better.  It goes into orthographic vs. phonological dyslexia, explains the RAN/RAS stuff, etc.  It's astonishing how much I don't know, oy.  

 

And you used Barton with him?  Something else?  I'm sorry, I forget.

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I have been very piecemeal with him, so it is very convoluted to say, and I switched around as things would not work.  

 

I do not think my son has any problems with RAN/RAS but his phonological was pretty severe (I believe).  

 

It is common with dyslexia, to have phonological problems.  It is not common for them to be this severe.  But -- it is not uncommon, either.  

 

My son had speech therapy at a university speech clinic.  

 

I own Barton Level 1 but I never did nonsense words with him, since he didn't have any real words memorized and took forever to become fluent with words, there did not seem to be any point.  I used methods from the DVDs that came with Level 1.  I used parts of the first two levels of All About Spelling, but could not do the stuff with him where they blend a large number of phonemes early in the program.  He did really well with Abecedarian Level B -- it teaches lots of phonics (past individual letters and letter sounds) one-at-a-time (it did not work for my son to be presented with two possible sounds a letter could make ---- confused him horribly, very counter-productive for him) and with very few phonemes in the words -- so he could concentrate on just the new things he was learning, not on sounding out long words.  

 

He was able to learn a lot of phonics stuff (ai, ea, oy, o-e like long o sound with a silent e) before he was strong with blending consonant clusters/blends.  I still remember him having a hard time sounding out the word "act" because of c and t being hard for him, at a time he could sound out many "harder" one-syllable words.  

 

Then we spent about a year doing fluency stuff of all kinds (which as far as I know is an orthographic approach) with one-syllable words, before moving onto two-syllable words.  Then the 6 common types of 2-syllable words, and a few common prefixes and the suffix -ly, that kind of thing.  After that he took off, I have not needed to "do a reading program," just keep going with listening to him read and stuff.  He is not "now he is above grade level," but now he is at grade level.  He is not a good speller, but he is not a horrible speller, either.  

 

I did a hodge podge, though.  

 

I link this a lot -- but this was extremely helpful for me, along with the Barton DVDs.  http://www.abcdrp.com/docs/ABCD_ErrorCorrectionPractice.pdf  Also the youtube videos that go with the error correction guide.  It helped me a lot to see videos!  There also used to be videos on the Reading Rockets website, but the whole website is changed now.  They used to have videos from a Lindamood Bell Center and a dyslexia school in Washington DC.  Very brief, but enough to give an idea of what to look for.  I also had lists of multisensory techniques and some of them seemed to work well, then would get boring, or he would need a different way to practice the same thing, whatever.  So I was adding more/different multisensory to whatever I was using, a lot of times.  But Abecedarian Level B is the only program I really used all the way through -- though I did add to it.  I used to think I would have used Level A if I had known about it -- but in retrospect I don't know if it would have worked for him or not.  I don't know.  The letter tiles from All About Spelling were great for him, and I kept using them with every other reading program, and kept doing pull-downs and comparing words with him.  

 

I do think getting the DVDs with Barton Level 1 was extremely helpful, and seeing it, were extremely helpful.  I tried to go through her program to a great extent, but using real words instead of nonsense words, but doing the same progression.  Just b/c -- I was trying to get him to learn some words, too, he was totally not memorizing anything at the time, and even had trouble memorizing the letter sounds and the phonics sounds -- so that is why I didn't do nonsense words.  But, I understand the reason for using nonsense words and think it is a great thing to do with most kids.  I have also seen many people write here, that Abecedarian was too simple for their kids, they were able to memorize their way through the lessons but then it didn't stick.  But they were just right for my son, he just could not memorize his way out of a paper bag, so he got a ton of practice in sounding out at the right level for him -- it was just a good fit for him.  

 

But, I do not think he has any RAN/RAS issues.  Most of what I know about that is from childrenofthecode.org (I have not read the book you are reading, so do not know as much about it).  None of the RAN/RAS stuff I have read sounds like him.  But the more severe phonological stuff sounds like him.  

 

But yeah -- it is not that other kids with dyslexia who have phonemic awareness problems don't have it, it is a matter of degree, to some extent, I think.  It is still part of that model.  Just because this is a book I have read -- but the beginning of Overcoming Dyslexia describes it pretty well I think. Just ignore what she says about vision!  It is a book that is primarily about the phonemic awareness stuff -- it is very good for that.  It is not a book about other things so much.  

 

http://www.amazon.com/Phonics-2nd-Scholastic-Teaching-Strategies/dp/0439845114/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411395954&sr=8-1&keywords=wiley+blevins  I did also check this book out from the library multiple times, and I own his other phonics book, and have used ideas from it.  It talks a lot about decoding, and it has a section about struggling readers I found had good information.  He is a veteran teacher, actually teaching kids to read, not a professor doing research studies -- I think he has got a lot of practical ideas and explanations.  But he knew about the current research up until the books were written, unfortunately they are maybe kind-of old now, but I have still found it to be the best book in our library about teaching reading in a way to help my son (it is not enough on its own -- it was just helpful and the best in the library as far as talking about actual teaching and not just the more overview of "here is what is going on").  

 

But I am not saying it is better than the book you are reading -- it is just what we have in our library!   

 

I did also get a lot of advice here, just little things, like not talking while he was concentrating, using a pencil to point instead, that kind of thing.  It made a difference and that kind of thing is harder for me, it is not natural/obvious to me, but when I knew things like that I could do them.  

 

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Edit -- b/c of my location, PACE/Learning RX has never ever been on my radar.  I just don't see how I could do it.  I actually looked into Lindamood Bell, but it is really really impractical enough for us to basically not be an option.  Like -- we would be people where I rented an apartment to have him go to a summer program ---- it is just not really something we could do.  

 

But if you want to know about Barton -- read Overcoming Dyslexia (I have seen the same info other places, too, in magazines -- it is not info only found in this book).  There are brain scans!!!!  Brainnnn Scannnnssss!  I like the brain scans -- not that I can really make heads or tails of it.  But -- they have brain scans showing before and after 80 hours of dyslexia remediation, it is a thing, you can see them various places.  Now -- that is not for the sound issues like we are talking about here.  But it does back up Barton in general.

 

Then -- Barton refers, for this issue, to Lips with a speech therapist.  So -- she does not claim to do anything for the sounds -- she just says -- to find a speech therapist to do Lips.  So I don't really think of her as making a claim specific to this, and then she has one of many reputable dyslexia programs that fit with the brain scan research.  

 

My son really learned it in speech therapy, but the reading remediation helped, too, b/c it is not like one day a switch is turned on and everything is perfect.  It kind-of took a long time and there were times he would seem to go backwards, the speech therapist said he was over-generalizing and that it was a normal part of the process for some kids.  Very frustrating, though, and a pretty hard time in a lot of ways.  He also had a huge mismatch between his verbal ability and his intelligibility, that was hard on him, besides the therapy being hard and tiring, even though they made it fun for him and he did lots of crafts and playing.  

 

 

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Thanks Lecka, that's a lot of info!  I'm going to have to read that over several times to understand it all!  I have the Shaywitz book here and keep meaning to look at it again.  l think I'm going to go get flat on my back.  We have more ST this week and she's going to run more testing, this time for something she blithely calls "problem solving."  I think it's sort of the next step after bombing the inferences.  When the inferences and phonological are trash but the auditory comprehension is high, that sort of screws with the idea that it's CAPD, right?  Wrong?  

 

I wish you were here.  We could go to the appt together and you could keep me company.  I'm not looking forward to this one.

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I wish I was there, too.  My little kids are in school now and I have got some free time!  

 

All those links are from 2 years of me looking at stuff.  

 

I also think, I cannot say CAPD specifically.  But -- for auditory processing, in the http://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Your-Child-With-Skill/dp/1849058768 Joyce Show book, she lists all these different things that fall under Auditory Processing.  Then -- it is all mix and match.  So it is not something where you have to have all of it.  You could just have one thing, you could have five things.  Whatever there is needs to be addressed in some way -- remediation or keeping it in mind when playing to strengths, or building in supports.  But I don't know if CAPD implies that there is a certain number of sections present?  I do not know.  

 

I know phonological falls under Auditory Processing in that book.  I don't know about the others.   

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My guy with a dx of mild CAPD (older brother of my dyslexic son) had some struggles with sounding out in our homeschool kindergarten.  Now, this was long before I knew he had CAPD and I knew very little about learning disabilities in general.  Instead of looking into learning disabilities, I let it rest for a summer then resumed reading again in first grade using lots of sight words and Dr. Seuss books. in addition to trying more simple phonics. (I had learned to read with a combination of sight words and phonics.) He did okay and eventually became a good reader, although his spelling remained poor.  Eventually we came back to phonics more with SWR phonograms and later with Barton. It was his younger brother who caused me such concerns with reading as neither phonics nor sight words helped him learn to read. Once I started learning more about dyslexia, that's when the light-bulb started going off in my head that this son had something going on too. 

 

After we'd had success with LiPS and Barton on my youngest son, I turned to using it to help my others with their spelling.  I was completely surprised when my son who know has a diagnosis of mild CAPD barely passed the Barton screen!  He was a strong reader by that time. It turns out had learned on his own to lip read to help with his CAPD and discovered other things that helped, including likely the fact that we homeschooled. There were clues that something was going on but It's when he was in the sound booth at the audiologist without the help of lip reading that his CAPD came out, and it also shows up more when there's background noise. But as far as learning to read, he was an older first grader when he really began learning to read.

 

Knowing what I know now, I see what some people say as "just wait" and how some other educators believe that sight words are the answer for struggling readers and those may be ways of getting around mild learning disabilities. But, I wouldn't recommend that approach and I wish that I'd know more about CAPD and dyslexia at the time when I first tried teaching this child to read.  Or maybe not--I don't know if I would have had the guts to homeschool if I knew then what I know now! 

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My now 13yo DS has a diagnosis of CAPD, also a diagnosis of phonological disorder. So learning to read phonetically just wasn't going to happen. I taught him using sight words (the Ladybird series of books helped a lot), he did some Lindamood Bell and also Tomatis, both of which seem to have helped a lot, especially Lindamood Bell. His subtype of CAPD appears to be inter-hemispheric, which corresponds to his other "issues." He does appear to have dyslexia but I'm still a bit suspicious he may have stealth dyslexia. His spelling continues to be a bit "off" and I'm not sure he knows his phonics very well at all, but he reads just fine.

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It you look at the research, even totally deaf children reached higher and more fluent reading levels by learning to read with phonics.

 

They needed a lot of seeing the sounds. Also, you may want to think about the possibility of something like Visible Speech, it was developed by Alexander Graham Bell's father for deaf children, it is very interesting and might help.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=EGwKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=visible+speech+bell#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Deaf children are often taught with sight words, and it can work, but I found it interesting that even what would appear to be the one population who would do better with whole word methods actually did best with phonics if you are looking at high levels of reading and enjoyment of reading. I can find the stats and quotes and other ideas somewhere later if you are interested.

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My guy with a dx of mild CAPD (older brother of my dyslexic son) had some struggles with sounding out in our homeschool kindergarten.  Now, this was long before I knew he had CAPD and I knew very little about learning disabilities in general.  Instead of looking into learning disabilities, I let it rest for a summer then resumed reading again in first grade using lots of sight words and Dr. Seuss books. in addition to trying more simple phonics. (I had learned to read with a combination of sight words and phonics.) He did okay and eventually became a good reader, although his spelling remained poor.  Eventually we came back to phonics more with SWR phonograms and later with Barton. It was his younger brother who caused me such concerns with reading as neither phonics nor sight words helped him learn to read. Once I started learning more about dyslexia, that's when the light-bulb started going off in my head that this son had something going on too. 

 

After we'd had success with LiPS and Barton on my youngest son, I turned to using it to help my others with their spelling.  I was completely surprised when my son who know has a diagnosis of mild CAPD barely passed the Barton screen!  He was a strong reader by that time. It turns out had learned on his own to lip read to help with his CAPD and discovered other things that helped, including likely the fact that we homeschooled. There were clues that something was going on but It's when he was in the sound booth at the audiologist without the help of lip reading that his CAPD came out, and it also shows up more when there's background noise. But as far as learning to read, he was an older first grader when he really began learning to read.

 

Knowing what I know now, I see what some people say as "just wait" and how some other educators believe that sight words are the answer for struggling readers and those may be ways of getting around mild learning disabilities. But, I wouldn't recommend that approach and I wish that I'd know more about CAPD and dyslexia at the time when I first tried teaching this child to read.  Or maybe not--I don't know if I would have had the guts to homeschool if I knew then what I know now! 

Merry, you know I always love hearing from you.  :)  You're of course my INSPIRATION in this, whew!  And yeah, that's about where I'm at, that I see what's coming out and what stuff means and it's just curling my hair!!  And yes, I think the LIPS, in essence teaches them to lip read.  It has other side effects, but I do think he's doing some of that.  I'm also concerned and would be interested to hear what you think.  I think in a sense it would be better to learn by sight than to be REALLY SLOW at sounding out.  However, at this point (spit, fume), I don't think ANYTHING in my toolbar is working.  The SLP even took away LIPS!  We'll work it out, but the way I was using it before he started saying sounds in isolation and it messed up the motor planning for his speech, causing him to tuck his lip and do things that took us a lot more therapy sessions to resolve.  

 

So at this point I'm going to walk into the psych looking like this total negligent mess, because I'm not doing any more till I get right info.  I *think* what I need to do is find a way to continue with LIPS without allowing him to speak.  He's so impulsive and aggressive, he LIKES to say the sounds.  So I haven't figured that one out.  I have this vision in my mind of some wholly other way to work together that gets him to the same point without ever saying the isolated sounds, but I haven't figured it out.

 

So did you end up doing the CAPD testing on your dyslexic dc as well?  I've just been really curious how that would pan out, since things seem to overlap.  Guess I might as well go ahead and get that eval scheduled for when he turns 7.  I can do that when we get our full hearing exam this week.  There's an audiologist at the clinic who is apparently "the guru" around here for CAPD, but she has a LONG wait.  Might as well get on the list and cancel if we don't need it.

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My now 13yo DS has a diagnosis of CAPD, also a diagnosis of phonological disorder. So learning to read phonetically just wasn't going to happen. I taught him using sight words (the Ladybird series of books helped a lot), he did some Lindamood Bell and also Tomatis, both of which seem to have helped a lot, especially Lindamood Bell. His subtype of CAPD appears to be inter-hemispheric, which corresponds to his other "issues." He does appear to have dyslexia but I'm still a bit suspicious he may have stealth dyslexia. His spelling continues to be a bit "off" and I'm not sure he knows his phonics very well at all, but he reads just fine.

So you're saying the phonological disorder was so severe they said give up on OG and go sight?  I don't know much (actually nothing) about the subtypes of CAPD.  What are the consequences of inter-hemispheric?  And they found that with the audiologist exam or something else like an MRI?

 

Right now ds' visual doesn't seem to support sight words.  At least not so far.  Or I'm doing something wrong.  I guess I could try harder.  He again today couldn't pull from his brain the dot pattern for 9.  He could derive it, but there's not that image in his brain.  His writing is looking better.  (which to my mind means something is clicking or coming with visual memory or development or something)

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It you look at the research, even totally deaf children reached higher and more fluent reading levels by learning to read with phonics.

 

They needed a lot of seeing the sounds. Also, you may want to think about the possibility of something like Visible Speech, it was developed by Alexander Graham Bell's father for deaf children, it is very interesting and might help.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=EGwKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=visible+speech+bell#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Deaf children are often taught with sight words, and it can work, but I found it interested that even what would appear to be the one population who would do better with whole word methods actually did besT with phonics if you are looking at high levels of reading and enjoyment of reading. I can find the stats and quotes and other ideas somewhere later if you are interested.

Ok, sigh, I bow to your stats!  But it's easy to bow since I haven't been able to get sight words and visual memory to work for him anyway, lol.

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No, you're not going to look negligent! 

I can't *make* him do anything.  He literally just sits there saying "But I want to do the flannel graph" over and over and over...  It's only his way.  I've never seen anything like it.  It really kinda pushes the edge of sanity.  And I'm SO COOL with going with him.  He's the one who asks to read the American Revolution encyclopedia and HE'S the one who asks for History Channel and HE'S the one who comes to me telling me about colorblind dogs.  (still not sure where he learned that, maybe Popular Mechanics for Kids?)  But he really can't sit and do math with me or anything else unless it's in his mind he wants to.  And between my having little clue at this point and his not wanting to, we're just an odd mix.  But you're right, technically today we did:

 

sequencing ABCs (actually not sequencing, just reading them today on the new manipulatives so we can sequence them tomorrow)

RB math (breaking the numbers 7, 8, 9, and 10 into three components, he couldn't remember the dot pattern for 9 but derived it from 8 after some thought)

art (Metropolitan Art Can you see it book)

history (DK American Revolution, reading through for the third time, this time looking for transportation and of course the always present GUNS)

beginning narration (had him retell me the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf from last week)

reading comprehension (read and discussed a fable together)

Bible (flannel graph story)

singing (though admittedly he meowed most of the time and chose not to sing)

 

But it still feels like NOTHING with him.  That's an off day, a nothing day for him.  That was just the tidbits and scraps you throw to the mice.

 

I came across some article talking about the spatial and visual problem solving abilities of kids on the spectrum.  Not that he even necessarily is.  I was just thinking maybe I really haven't caught the things that are separate from the disabilities that would thrill him. We worked on his Knex science kit building a seesaw some more today.

 

We forgot to write.  I got out the cards to work on the motor control and then didn't get it done, sigh.  But yesterday he cut shapes and today worked on coloring them (a blue heron and a nest).  He wrote his name yesterday and I was surprised how nice it looked!  It really was decent and not nearly as scary as a few months ago.  

 

Adding: I just checked.  The letters still start at the bottom.  The blue heron he cut out actually looks like one, which blows my mind.

 

It just feels like nothing because there's not that formal, come sit beside me and let's "do" school thing.  Sigh.  He couldn't even tell his aunt what he's "learning in school" when she asked.   :(   Of course he's not in school and we're glad of it!  If he were, he wouldn't have time to learn about colorblind dogs and Ovid's risquĂƒÂ© writings that got him exiled, lol.  He was desperate to stay up and finish the HC show on the Caesars, but I told him he had to go to bed.  Tomorrow.   :)

 

Lecka was right that I just need to make a plan for whatever things are bugging me and implement them.  It wouldn't take much.  I always overthink things.  (craft EVERY DAY, blah blah)  But you're right, if we just did a *little* more I'd be pretty content.  He's so like me, I get these wild ideas in my head and want to try them with him.  It's very hard to restrain and figure out if the ideas are appropriate (as in opening up to someone with ability, not underestimating) or if they're just crazy, lol.  

 

Just rambling there or thinking out loud.  

 

I guess to me it's enriched environment, not "school."  As far as ability to make him do something he doesn't want to do (the theory of school), it isn't really there.  

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So you're saying the phonological disorder was so severe they said give up on OG and go sight?  I don't know much (actually nothing) about the subtypes of CAPD.  What are the consequences of inter-hemispheric?  And they found that with the audiologist exam or something else like an MRI?

 

Right now ds' visual doesn't seem to support sight words.  At least not so far.  Or I'm doing something wrong.  I guess I could try harder.  He again today couldn't pull from his brain the dot pattern for 9.  He could derive it, but there's not that image in his brain.  His writing is looking better.  (which to my mind means something is clicking or coming with visual memory or development or something)

 

I taught him, we weren't in an area where there were any experts to help us. I was going with a combination of sight/phonics, which worked well for my older dcs (learn the Dolch words in combination with straight phonics). Reading went much more quickly with sight words. When he did Lindamood Bell one summer in the US, they worked with him on visualizing words to help him learn to spell. For example, instead of just studying the words or copying them out, he would be asked to "see" them in his head and then manipulate them in his mind by changing the colors or the size of the letters. It worked great for him. This spring he was close to failing Greek and in two weeks with one or two hours a day of this particular approach I was able to get him from failng to excelling, just by having him approach the words in a different way (his problem was that he couldn't write/spell the words, Greek grammar was okay).

 

The inter-hemispheric seemed obvious given his test results, and were borne out later by testing for vision processing disorder and the fact that he has trouble with the midliine. He also has dysgraphia. He's one of these kids who has lots of weird things but no one "big" diagnosis that can explain everything. The interhemispheric dysfunction is the one thing that is common to all his issues and explains everything.

 

I think you just have to try different approaches to see what clicks. The more you know about the way your dc's brain functions, the easier it will be to do that. Try a kinetic approach, or a Montessori style tactile approach with feeling and moving the letters around so you write before you read. If the writing is going well, maybe that's your opening to unlock the rest.

 

One thing that I personally think helped ds but for which I have no evidence is listening to audiobooks. I think that helped him linked the auditory input with the visual image created in his head. No evidence for this whatsoever, but he's listened to audiobooks almost every night for the last decade or so.

 

 

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Saw, thanks, that's very interesting!  Yes, your experience with audiobooks is what happened with my dd, so I've been very aggressive making sure ds gets them even more.  He has a kindle fire with plenty of audibooks to make sure he can have them going any time he wants.  :)

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Elizabeth, your enriched environment is wonderful. My kids so need that, and we don't have time because they are too busy doing...I don't know. It's hard to describe. I told my husband that I'm so worn down by the onslaught of whatever it is they actually do (generally talking to death all day, every day because the thought can't possibly wait until later) that I can no longer see it or describe it. It is, however, still demoralizing. 

 

Saw, I want to know more about this hemispheric dysfunction and how it was teased out (and by what tests, etc.). If you have time for some detail, it would be really helpful to me. I have one with suspected CAPD and hosts of quirks (very, very, very SLOW processor), and one on the spectrum with ADHD, SPD, dysgraphia, etc. 

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My older son had trouble crossing the midline, but I think maybe not too severe.  He was helped a lot with OT, he learned to skip and made a lot of progress.  

 

My younger son is doing some bal-a-vis-x.  It is popular in our district, we are close to the city where it is based, so a lot of teachers have been to their trainings.  I do not know too much about it -- but it is supposed to be for the two sides of the brain.  So are other programs -- they all seem kind-of similar.  Both my sons have done sideways figure 8s in school, it is that kind of thing.  There is a Dianne Craft program with that kind of thing, and other programs.  Here it is an OT thing and bal-a-vis-x is the popular program.  

 

My older son's OT eval came back saying he had poor visual memory, but average motor memory.  OhElizabth -- this is mentioned in The Mislabeled Child.  Some children have better motor memory and can learn that way.  I think my older son is that way some.  I would not be able to tell -- it is something I found out from OT.  So -- all the big multisensory stuff was good for him for learning letter formation and number formation.  But still -- it is not like it is really good.  Still lots of reversals.  He does not know how to write b or d, he switches and writes B and D even when they should not be capitalized.  There is a b in the middle of our last name and he writes it B in the middle.  But ----- he is writing functionally in school this year!  His teacher (I have talked to her) is only commenting on his content, not correcting spelling/handwriting/punctuation.  There are 3 spelling lists (20 words, 10 words, and an advanced list of 20 words) and he is doing 10 words, but he can do good with the half list.  He is doing good!  

 

For my son -- reading is easier for him than writing.  Writing is just an extra thing.  But -- multisensory is great for him, writing is a popular multisensory method, but there are others, too.  Also from my son -- for him to learn letter/number formation, that was not best (I found out when he did OT) accomplished while using a pencil.  Pencils are an extra complication for him -- pencil plus letter formation is too much.  He learned the formations without using a pencil, with all those good multisensory things that I thought were too babyish for him (though I did do them with reading, I didn't think to do them with writing --I thought -- to learn letter formation practice writing -- which turned out not the best for him).  Anyway -- there are a lot of ways to practice letter/number formations, and they all count.  They are all building connections.  Writing with a pencil/crayon/marker is not the best, it is one choice.  

 

I tried sight words with my son in K and it was just too much of a nightmare.  When it was time to do Dolch words with him, we did them, and it took a long, long time.  I don't think he had visual strengths to draw on.  But -- when kids do have visual strengths -- then I think it is really good to use things that will play to strengths. 

 

Also, with my son's speech issues, I felt no choice but to deal with the phonological issues.  He had to do the speech therapy.  Then I always felt like the reading was helping his speech.  I DON'T think that is going to be true with everyone, but I really think it was the case with him.  I was also talking to the speech therapists and so I was getting specific information that they thought it would be helpful to him -- but they might not say that to someone in a different situation.  Just what it was for my son.  

 

But I am meaning to be encouraging.  My older son has made really good progress with his letter/number formations and continues to make progress... it is not something that for him is just "a Kindergarten skill" and he was supposed to master it back when he was 4 or 5.  That is just not reality for him.  And -- it is really okay.  He has learned it later, and he will still get better.  It is just really HARD for him.  It is not "oh just some K skill, it is so easy for kids to pick up."  

 

He has a lot of things he is good at -- this is just not it.  But -- it does not really matter.  It is something that is like --  it is work for me, work for him, OT, talking to his teachers, etc.  But it is just one thing, not that big of a deal on a day-to-day basis right now, I just keep my eye out and make sure it is not interfering with school.  

 

It is HARD to have a Kindergarten student having a hard time with things that are supposed to be basic and easy.  But -- it is just, these are not easy skills, it does not mean much beyond that.  It is no referendum on anything.  I know you read The Dyslexic Advantage, too, I think this is the kind of thing a lot of people in that book have probably struggled with, and look how well they are doing :)

 

I think it is great to hear about so many different things to try, too, but it is important to remember there is not one best way.  Try different things, and keep what works.  If something doesn't work -- it just is not the right fit, it does not mean something wrong with your child or that the method won't work with someone else.  

 

Edit -- for information, my son had pretty severe problems with his articulation, but all with consonants and consonant blends and also the sounds like sh/ch/th whatever they are called.  He was not hearing them well and not saying them well.  Then for him -- when he started being able to say them, that helped with hearing them.  They were very linked for him -- being able to say it and to hear it.  So -- that is the kind of phonological issue he had.  I think even phonological is broad -- I have read things where it was just not the situation for my son.  Frex he has never had any problem with telling apart vowels -- it is just not an issue for him.  Other things, too, I am not thinking of right now, but I have definitely looked at things and thought "oh, that is not what is going on with him."  I also think that in the scheme of things -- he may not have been as severe, or maybe it wasn't really apd and just a speech issue, and so that is why speech therapy could help him.  I think it just worked out.  

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My dd's auditory processing eval report points to something like an inter-hemispheric issue. She also showed up as having a left dominant ear, and she has wonky middle ear refexes that show the auditory signals are not travelling correctly through the brain. She has the symptoms of dyspraxia but not severe enough to warrant a label. Her np testing also showed some visual processing weakness issues that made the np want to refer us to the covd optometrist who does VT but we had already gone. She's got sensory stuff going on, too, that I had missed for many years. I just thought she was sensitive. All of this points to brain disorganization, but she's bright and has done very well. I always think it's from the read alouds and the music we consistently pushed/encouraged.

 

I think we may be right where saw is. A lot of stuff but not really bad enough for a label. When we did the online Asperger's quiz, I realized a lot about her processing for the first time. But she doesn't have the social issues that would ever qualify her for an ASD dx. Not one specialist ever brought that up as a possibility.

 

We were living abroad in her early years so her language experience was different from a lot of others. I felt reading went slow but she didn't have a lot of English in her environment. We did phonics but not using an intense, thorough program. She read very slowly and painstakingly with readers, with me becoming very frustrated. Once we moved to the US and she went to ps where they relied on sight reading, her reading took off that winter. She was seven and a half. I always thought it was sight reading (a la Freed). But I honestly don't know if it was the sight reading because she could have been experiencing the benefit of being in an English speaking environment. By then it had been eight months.

 

My dd never had a phonological problem and actually learns well through listening, despite the CAPD. Nothing is ever simple.

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Elizabeth, your enriched environment is wonderful. My kids so need that, and we don't have time because they are too busy doing...I don't know. It's hard to describe. I told my husband that I'm so worn down by the onslaught of whatever it is they actually do (generally talking to death all day, every day because the thought can't possibly wait until later) that I can no longer see it or describe it. It is, however, still demoralizing. 

 

Saw, I want to know more about this hemispheric dysfunction and how it was teased out (and by what tests, etc.). If you have time for some detail, it would be really helpful to me. I have one with suspected CAPD and hosts of quirks (very, very, very SLOW processor), and one on the spectrum with ADHD, SPD, dysgraphia, etc. 

You should start a thread on this.  My dd doesn't do that, and generally my ds is more kinesthetic than verbal in his demands.  I think you might need some techniques like a thought jar.  Surely people have found some tricks to hold that till a more typical time?  

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Lecka, the OT our SLP has brought into the practice does BalavisX.  :)  Our SLP is VERY keen on the therapies for midline like BalavisX, Brain Gym, etc.  She says they definitely help the language.

 

Thanks for sharing all that.  Your perspective on not making things just be K5 is encouraging.  :)

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Tiramisu, that's fascinating.  You're bumming me out, because that good auditory comprehension score was my little hope that this is NOT an APD!  So thanks.   :lol:   I already did my crying this weekend though, so I'm DONE with that.  Just on to problem solving.  Sigh.  But you do see how many are saying sounding out was a horrible method for their CAPD kids and that it was almost easier to come in afterward...  

 

Well wow. Fascinating to think how informative the eval might be a year from now!   :)

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Okay, I will be honest...... sounding out was miserable.  But, my son did learn that way (in conjunction with speech therapy).  But ---- it was less miserable than sight words, and he did make progress.

 

Sight words was just miserable, and he didn't learn well, either.  We were doing the misery with no result.  I will take some misery (not -- miserable child, but slow going and tons of repetition) when at least there is some progress.  

 

I am a believer in the Overcoming Dyslexia stuff, to some extent.  At the same time -- obviously there are kids who are learning with more sight-based methods!  

 

But anyway, I am not making any claims for OG not being miserable, difficult, time-consuming.  It is just -- my son did learn to read that way.  

 

And when he did Dolch words, after he had gotten a fair way through some beginning reading things (like blending, lol).... well, it was still miserable.  It was time to do Dolch words, but it was also, fair to call it miserable.  But being able to have phonetic clues to the Dolch words was better for him, than just trying to memorize a list of letters.  B/c -- by then -- he did have the letters and letter sounds memorized, and knew them fluently, and knew how to blend!  And then even with that -- Dolch words were still miserable.  

He started to take off at the end of the time we were doing Dolch words, and picked up the later ones a lot easier and more quickly.  I think he had just built up some skills by then, I don't really know.  

 

But.... I wish I could say I thought it would not be horrible, but I can't say that.  I just think -- it worked out here, anyway.  

 

And, there are so many things that can make the set-up more fun, and different ways to practice, different ways to mix things up, etc.  It can be slow and repetitious without being drudgery.  It takes work to make that happen -- but it is possible.  

 

I don't want to come across like I don't get that it is horrible.... I get it..... I just am like -- doubtful there was another good option for us.  And -- slow progress is still progress.  

 

I think it was worth it, though.  My son now says he is a good reader, and doesn't really remember how hard it was for him.  I look back and think it was worth it.  But I also think -- I could have slowed down a little, not been so intent on "making catch up progress," it would have been okay, too.  I could have worried less.  

 

I also had a point with OG style, where my son DID learn to segment with word chains (like with AAS tiles, making a CVC word and then changing one letter, doing this with a series of words).  He did learn to segment!  And then a little later he learned to blend!  Then he learned to sound out some CVC words (I only did ones that did not use consonants he had trouble with in speech)!  At that point -- I felt like -- okay, this is a sign, this works, this is what I should do, b/c this is a sign of progress.  

 

Also, to be honest, Dibels is part of my son's school district and I wanted him OUT of reading pull-out and he needed to get a higher score on Dibels for that to happen.  Dibels is wanting kids to be able to blend and segment words.  So -- that was part of it for me, too, I didn't just want him to read, I wanted him to do better on Dibels and get out of reading pull-out.  And -- at the time I took Overcoming Dyslexia very seriously, too.  I still am a fan, but I am not as devoted to it as I used to be.  

 

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OhE, I don't know whether O-G will ever work for your DS.  I just wish you could witness first hand, a very experienced professional O-G tutor working with a student.  I sat through an hour tutoring sesion with DS and was blown away.  There is an intensity to it like nothing that I've ever seen.  I graduated college and can read.  The tutor wore me out.  DS worked with her four months before he could sound out a CVC word.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that forming those neural networks is hard work for student and teacher.  As to whether sight word or O-G will be the right approach, well let's hope this next round of testing can help you decide.

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My dd's auditory processing eval report points to something like an inter-hemispheric issue. She also showed up as having a left dominant ear, and she has wonky middle ear refexes that show the auditory signals are not travelling correctly through the brain. She has the symptoms of dyspraxia but not severe enough to warrant a label. Her np testing also showed some visual processing weakness issues that made the np want to refer us to the covd optometrist who does VT but we had already gone. She's got sensory stuff going on, too, that I had missed for many years. I just thought she was sensitive. All of this points to brain disorganization, but she's bright and has done very well. I always think it's from the read alouds and the music we consistently pushed/encouraged.

 

I think we may be right where saw is. A lot of stuff but not really bad enough for a label. When we did the online Asperger's quiz, I realized a lot about her processing for the first time. But she doesn't have the social issues that would ever qualify her for an ASD dx. Not one specialist ever brought that up as a possibility.

 

We were living abroad in her early years so her language experience was different from a lot of others. I felt reading went slow but she didn't have a lot of English in her environment. We did phonics but not using an intense, thorough program. She read very slowly and painstakingly with readers, with me becoming very frustrated. Once we moved to the US and she went to ps where they relied on sight reading, her reading took off that winter. She was seven and a half. I always thought it was sight reading (a la Freed). But I honestly don't know if it was the sight reading because she could have been experiencing the benefit of being in an English speaking environment. By then it had been eight months.

 

My dd never had a phonological problem and actually learns well through listening, despite the CAPD. Nothing is ever simple.

 

Quite a few similarities to my ds here, interesting! I find it interesting that your dd's issues would tick some of the Asperger's boxes -- my ds has the exact same. No one would ever give him the dx, but there are some things about him that are exactly what you read about.

We were also living abroad when ds started learning to read. It went slowly at first and then improved radically even though his language environment stayed the same.

Is your DD very musical?

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Quite a few similarities to my ds here, interesting! I find it interesting that your dd's issues would tick some of the Asperger's boxes -- my ds has the exact same. No one would ever give him the dx, but there are some things about him that are exactly what you read about.

We were also living abroad when ds started learning to read. It went slowly at first and then improved radically even though his language environment stayed the same.

Is your DD very musical?

Very musical. She's in college studying music. That's really been her niche. It's something she's good at but something that makes her feel good, too. 

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My apraxia student did well with marked print, it was very helpful as a cue for him. He did not have any hearing problems, though. I started for the basics with UPP, here they are with the Dolch words:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/sightwordsinUPP1.pdf

 

Here is my UPP page:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/upp.html

 

Later, I used a few other marked print systems, the 1908 Webster and the 1879 McGuffey readers. He mom did CLE with him at 1/2 the pace of normal. He was smart, so could learn several different systems with no problems, a less smart child might need to be limited in the number of different marking systems you introduce.

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OhE, I don't know whether O-G will ever work for your DS.  I just wish you could witness first hand, a very experienced professional O-G tutor working with a student.  I sat through an hour tutoring sesion with DS and was blown away.  There is an intensity to it like nothing that I've ever seen.  I graduated college and can read.  The tutor wore me out.  DS worked with her four months before he could sound out a CVC word.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that forming those neural networks is hard work for student and teacher.  As to whether sight word or O-G will be the right approach, well let's hope this next round of testing can help you decide.

I didn't realize it had taken so long!  And yes, that would be interesting to see!

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Ok, just roll with me here, because we don't have a diagnosis on that.  We just no he did horribly on the screening tool.  He was at 16th percentile on gluing sounds together to make a word. Did your CAPD/APD dc test low like that, and if so how did you teach them to read?  

 

See, if he can't turn component sounds into a word, then there's NO WAY he can sound out to read.  Can't physically happen.  Even if he starts to sound out, he won't be able to read.

 

How is Barton supposedly so good for that?  (per her website)  And what did you end up doing?  What is PACE/Learning RX doing for it that is supposedly making it come together?  

 

I don't know, just totally flummoxed here with what that can mean.  Or do not all CAPD/APD individuals even HAVE that issue?  Maybe many CAPD kids have NO issue learning to read??

 

My 13 year old was diagnosed with all four subtypes of APD. I think OG is the ONLY thing that would have worked to teach her to read. We used LiPS first (Lindamood Bell Phonemic Sequencing), just long enough to develop her phonemic awareness to where she could pass the Barton student screening.  We also read poetry, used the sample chapter of some book that works on phonemic awareness (I'll come back and post the name if i can remember it), all while doing the Therapeutic Listening Program and Interactive Metronome. She had been in speech therapy since she was 3 until she was 10. She wasn't diagnosed with apraxia, but when she was 7, we were told that she should have been, but it was missed.

 

We started this mix of therapy + LiPS then Barton when she was 7. I was close to despair when she was 9, because she was seriously falling behind in general knowledge about the world, not just reading. She wouldn't listen to audiobooks because with her APD, she got lost and confused.  I believed she would never become literate past a Dr. Seuss book level. 

 

A major turning point was the Ramona movie. She loved that movie, so I got all the Ramona audiobooks from the library. Suddenly, audiobooks made sense to her. Then one day, she picked up a Boxcar children book and read it. I think she read every one of those that the library had.  The summer she turned 11, we did a refresher of Interactive Metronome. The summer she turned 12, we saw another developmental leap not just academically, but also in her dancing.  She went from  middle of the pack to medaling in every solo. That fall, she scored within or above the normal range in every test and subtest of the WJIII. 

 

This July, she started traditional school for the first time. We got her first report card a week or so ago, and her grades ranged from 92-100.  She cried because she wanted straight A's (93 and up). Her teachers love her because she works so hard and wants to learn. I wish they could see all that she's been through to get to this point. 

 

OG tutoring literally rewires the brain and forms new pathways. It is HARD and it is slow. When we started, she would go limp against me after 5-10 minutes of instruction. Her brain literally hurt from the effort she had to make.  I kept telling her we have to do this and some day you will thank me. When she cried, I hugged her, but I refused to let her quit (well, maybe for the day, but not forever). 

 

It is a long and hard journey with these kids. She also has SPD and ADHD, so she was a difficult baby, toddler, and preschooler even before the academic difficulties started. The stress put such a strain on our marriage that I didn't know if it would survive. But I cannot tell you the joy of seeing her thrive now. It will never be over - she still reverses letters and numbers, and her spelling is still lacking. She still reads better if she enjoys the book and it has plenty of white space. She still mishears things. (During the World Cup, the announcer said the players were offsides. She cocked her head and looked at the TV, then said, "they don't look lopsided to me.") But I'm on the other side where I no longer worry about how she will survive as an adult. You will get here too. 

 

ETA: Our audiologist was wonderful, but I took issue with her recommendation to teach reading using sight methods. That is totally against the research. 

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My 13 year old was diagnosed with all four subtypes of APD. I think OG is the ONLY thing that would have worked to teach her to read. We used LiPS first (Lindamood Bell Phonemic Sequencing), just long enough to develop her phonemic awareness to where she could pass the Barton student screening.  We also read poetry, used the sample chapter of some book that works on phonemic awareness (I'll come back and post the name if i can remember it), all while doing the Therapeutic Listening Program and Interactive Metronome. She had been in speech therapy since she was 3 until she was 10. She wasn't diagnosed with apraxia, but when she was 7, we were told that she should have been, but it was missed.

 

We started this mix of therapy + LiPS then Barton when she was 7. I was close to despair when she was 9, because she was seriously falling behind in general knowledge about the world, not just reading. She wouldn't listen to audiobooks because with her APD, she got lost and confused.  I believed she would never become literate past a Dr. Seuss book level. 

 

A major turning point was the Ramona movie. She loved that movie, so I got all the Ramona audiobooks from the library. Suddenly, audiobooks made sense to her. Then one day, she picked up a Boxcar children book and read it. I think she read every one of those that the library had.  The summer she turned 11, we did a refresher of Interactive Metronome. The summer she turned 12, we saw another developmental leap not just academically, but also in her dancing.  She went from  middle of the pack to medaling in every solo. That fall, she scored within or above the normal range in every test and subtest of the WJIII. 

 

This July, she started traditional school for the first time. We got her report a week or so ago, and her grades ranged from 92-100.  She cried because she wanted straight A's (93 and up). Her teachers love her because she works so hard and wants to learn. I wish they could see all that she's been through to get to this point. 

 

OG tutoring literally rewires the brain and forms new pathways. It is HARD and it is slow. When we started, she would go limp against me after 5-10 minutes of instruction. Her brain literally hurt from the effort she had to make.  I kept telling her we have to do this and some day you will thank me. When she cried, I hugged her, but I refused to let her quit (well, maybe for the day, but not forever). 

 

It is a long and hard journey with these kids. She also has SPD and ADHD, so she was a difficult baby, toddler, and preschooler even before the academic difficulties started. The stress put such a strain on our marriage that I didn't know if it would survive. But I cannot tell you the joy of seeing her thrive now. It will never be over - she still reverses letters and numbers, and her spelling is still lacking. She still reads better if she enjoys the book and it has plenty of white space. She still mishears things. (During the World Cup, the announcer said the players were offsides. She cocked her head and looked at the TV, then said, "they don't look lopsided to me.") But I'm on the other side where I no longer worry about how she will survive as an adult. You will get here too. 

That's amazing!  Thank you for sharing!  I'm aware of VT's affect on the brain but I didn't realize that about OG.  That's very interesting.  And yes, in that context, it makes sense why it would be so hard.

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Very musical. She's in college studying music. That's really been her niche. It's something she's good at but something that makes her feel good, too. 

 

Even more interesting. I have this theory that ds's auditory processing has helped him in his music. He's been more or less professional singing for a while and is on a pre-professional track musically. I have always wondered whether the fact that he seems to hear everything without processing like you're supposed to means that he hears "more" of the music. He could, for instance, pick out the different notes of five notes played together, when he was eight, with no specific training. It's annoying when he cannot hear the different between me and the tv, but it's sure useful when you can hear all the different parts of a SATB arrangement and stick to your own. So maybe your dd is one more bit of evidence for my hypothesis.

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Even more interesting. I have this theory that ds's auditory processing has helped him in his music. He's been more or less professional singing for a while and is on a pre-professional track musically. I have always wondered whether the fact that he seems to hear everything without processing like you're supposed to means that he hears "more" of the music. He could, for instance, pick out the different notes of five notes played together, when he was eight, with no specific training. It's annoying when he cannot hear the different between me and the tv, but it's sure useful when you can hear all the different parts of a SATB arrangement and stick to your own. So maybe your dd is one more bit of evidence for my hypothesis.

 

Not including her ear, she had a strong left sided dominance from an early age that a neurologist picked up when she was younger. Some might say she is right-brained and that could play a part in the musicality. 

 

There are some types of CAPD that have problems with music, especially tone. I know that was tested for in the CAPD eval.

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