What to do if a family is not teaching their children

[BlsdMama]

I would not involve CPS. Their involvement in this would not be beneficial, imo, if it is an otherwise stable, living home where children are cased for. If I were able I'd volunteer to tutor or have the children visit often. Is mom overwhelmed? I'm curious why she keeps them home? Where is Dad in this?

[Justmeandyou]

My free online phonics lessons for the 13, 10, and 8 year old and anyone else who needs them.

 

:grouphug:

 

They take ten hours total, most students improve a grade level or two, I had one young adult improve 6 grade levels after watching them through once. I also had a 6th grader who watched them through 3 times, gaining a grade level each time.

 

Thanks, I'll pass this to her.

[Tanaqui]

  It appears the kids are okay with that set up too, they are not taking strides to self educate

 

You're asking children who aren't literate to know what steps to take to educate themselves. Really?

 

[Justmeandyou]

I have not read the responses, but here are my thoughts.

 

First of all, this doesn't sound like unschooling. This sounds like educational neglect, which is against the law no matter which state you live in.

 

Second, calling CPS is a drastic measure. I would start with a less drastic step, but I think I'd still report it to someone. Local truant officer?

 

Or what about calling your state-wide homeschool organization (or someone like HSLDA?) and explaining the situation to them and see what they suggest?

 

Honestly, protecting their "right" to do this does none of us homeschoolers any favors.I

 

I emailed the state homeschool association and asked for suggestions. 

[Justmeandyou]

I would not involve CPS. Their involvement in this would not be beneficial, imo, if it is an otherwise stable, living home where children are cased for. If I were able I'd volunteer to tutor or have the children visit often. Is mom overwhelmed? I'm curious why she keeps them home? Where is Dad in this?

 

I do believe they are fine, care wise.  I work part time with families on medicaid and various state programs and spend large amounts of time in their homes.  I have seen SO much worse.  I am not concerned about their welfare and twice in my state CPS has removed children from the home for educational neglect.  They were eventually returned, but I think risking removal from the home is so huge. 

[Justmeandyou]

I can see why you are torn. From your point of view it does merit some kind of intervention - but the intervention available through CPS is often inappropriate for the situation. Is it better for the kids to stay where they are cared for if not educated when CPS might move them out of the home instead of helping the parents see that the kids need to be educated? Statistically a lot of bad things happen to kids due to CPS involvement, so I completely understand hesitation there. It's just not the right tool for the job, even if it seems to be the only legal one.

 

For the people who say older kids only knowing letters or not being able to read is acceptable because it happens at public school, do you understand what percentile that places kids in? What the equivalent IQ scores are for a child to not be capable of those things? How you are literally handicapping a student by not giving them a chance to learn basic literacy? I am aware of the literacy statistics throughout our country, but I also have children with *severe* delays who are able to learn these things with regular instruction. Not heroic interventions, just regular instruction. It is acceptable for a child with no or mild learning disabilities to never be instructed to the point that they are capable of reading less than my child with severe brain damage? No. It isn't.

 

This isn't a difference in philosophy because a family purposefully chooses to unschool. This isn't saying a family must prepare every child for an exclusive four year college. I'm saying a fifth grader should be given the opportunity to learn more than letters and sounds. You would need to be intentionally opposed to your child receiving an education to not be concerned about a fifth grader enrolled in a public school never learning more than the alphabet. We live in a poor rural district (different obstacles than an inner city location), and the school's typical scores aren't great. I have seen the fifth graders there though and they can read more than their letters.

 

Unless there is information that you haven't shared here because you don't know it, this isn't acceptable. Not acceptable. Period. I know people don't like to call it right out like that. I know as homeschoolers we like to look at things through our own lens where maybe we get busy for a few weeks and things get shuffled to the back burner, maybe we have a child that things don't click for quickly, etc. Those things could be possible in this case and the OP doesn't know it. As the problem is stated, to the OP's knowledge and not our speculation, this isn't an acceptable education for those children. Some kind of intervention is merited for children who are past elementary age and aren't being offered an education.

 I agree that it isn't acceptable, and I am glad to hear you say it.  I just don't know what to do about it. 

 

 

[Tidbits of Learning]

I have never heard of a government entity immediately removing children from a home for educational neglect. The first course of action has always been (even in countries like Germany where homeschooling is illegal) to first try to get the parent to cooperate - in this case, that could mean requiring the parent to formally educate their children at home, OR it could mean agreeing to enroll the children in a public or private school.

 

One of my best friends is a consult for child abuse and educational neglect is a form of child abuse.  The first thing that they do when a complaint is made in this manner is to request what curriculum and methods are being used with the children.  The children would be tested to find out where they are educationally.  It does not mean they will be taken from their family.  Most of the time, there has to be an indication of other types of neglect on top of the educational neglect for the state to justify taking the children.  They look at the big picture-fed, clothed, not beaten or sexually assaulted...but if the children are 2 + grade levels behind then they do have to make a plan of action or send the kids back to school and they would be monitored until the children were up to within 2 grade levels expectation of their age-grade level. 

It would fall under truancy laws.  You have the right to home school, but you have to school.  It is part of the deal.  If you aren't schooling, your child is truant and basically a drop out.  That is the parent's fault.  The OP does not need to feel guilty for inquiring to higher ups about this and the place to start is actually the local school district not CPS.  You call and report suspected truancy and the fact the 13 yr old is home alone for weeks with other children in charge with no schooling being administered by the required adult in charge.  I am not talking about a 13 yr old watching his siblings while a parent works and the parent coming home at the end of the day and schooling.  It sounds like the mom travels and the 13 yr old is a surrogate parent.  That is not right.  This is not early 19th century.  

So to the original OP, call your local school district superintendent's office on Monday and report that you have noticed a family on your street that no parent is in charge during the day for at least a week and that the children appear not to attend school or have an authority figure actively home educating them. 

I would feel this was a moral obligation.  If the children were threadbare, had visible marks on them, or other obvious signs of accepted abuse; this would not be a debate on a forum.  Educational neglect while hidden and unseen can leave lasting damage and cause these children years of anguish and any chance of a decent future financially and career wise.  

[Justmeandyou]

I'll broach the subject with mom again.  Thanks for the input everyone.  A few years ago the topic of educational neglect came up on a homeschooling message board I was a part of.  Unschoolers blasted traditional educators saying that a child that watched TV 8 hours a day and never learned to read or write was far better off that kids attending public school.  That experience left me very hesitant to bring up the topic here. I appreciate the support that not educating isn't acceptable.  In addition to being worried about these specific kids, I am worried about homeschooling in general. Parents not teaching has the potential to undermine homeschooling across the state.  (FYI-- I know several great unschoolers and am not opposed to that method of education, so don't blast me.)

[Elisabet1]

 

 

My concern is these kids asking me in 10 years why I did not do something to make sure they were able to read/write and do basic math. 

 

 

ETA:  rules for this state are something like "must include reading, math, spelling and grammar and must be actively pursued."  Nothing else.

To me, stating you are concerned these kids will come asking you in 10 yrs why you didn't do something is just trying to make an excuse to interfere.

You don't have to be their friends and watch what is going on. I am not sure how you can say they are not unschooling. Unschooling is illegal in many states. But it sounds like you are in Texas and CPS does not investigate "educational neglect." This is definitely a case of MYOB. If you were posting that the kids were starving, locked in closets, beaten, and not getting medical care...then you might have a real complaint. But it sounds like you really want to enforce your way of home schooling on to this family. And the whole idea that the kids will hunt you down in 10 yrs and blame you for whatever is silly. You can see things you disagree with in parenting all around you but you are not butting in to those people business for fear of those kids blaming you for whatever in 10 yrs.

[Justmeandyou]

To me, stating you are concerned these kids will come asking you in 10 yrs why you didn't do something is just trying to make an excuse to interfere.

You don't have to be their friends and watch what is going on. I am not sure how you can say they are not unschooling. Unschooling is illegal in many states. But it sounds like you are in Texas and CPS does not investigate "educational neglect." This is definitely a case of MYOB. If you were posting that the kids were starving, locked in closets, beaten, and not getting medical care...then you might have a real complaint. But it sounds like you really want to enforce your way of home schooling on to this family. And the whole idea that the kids will hunt you down in 10 yrs and blame you for whatever is silly. You can see things you disagree with in parenting all around you but you are not butting in to those people business for fear of those kids blaming you for whatever in 10 yrs.

 

Not in Texas.  Your attitude is exactly why I was hesitant to bring it up.  Almost every other person that posted on this  thread disagrees with you though, so I will move forward trying to help. 

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

I think this graph and the graph in the more recent report is a powerful tool to see how they are negatively impacting their children's future, the difference in earnings is stark and highly correlated.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/profitable.html

 

Here is the direct link to the PDF of the most recent adult literacy survey, their graph is on page 31 of the document, page 53 of the PDF.

 

http://nces.ed.gov/Pubs2007/2007480.pdf

 

The top level equates to college reading level, a middle class wage averages 12th grade reading level. The 13 year old is in the poverty level currently for the average person with that reading ability. (They do not directly use reading grade levels, but I have analyzed reading grade levels of each of the passages used for each literacy level and the numerical scores.)

 

Also, and this data is also in the adult literacy survey, 70% of those using welfare and 70% of prisoners are in that lowest literacy level.

[Justmeandyou]

:grouphug:

 

I think this graph and the graph in the more recent report is a powerful tool to see how they are negatively impacting their children's future, the difference in earnings is stark and highly correlated.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/profitable.html

 

Here is the direct link to the PDF of the most recent adult literacy survey, their graph is on page 31 of the document, page 53 of the PDF.

 

http://nces.ed.gov/Pubs2007/2007480.pdf

 

The top level equates to college reading level, a middle class wage averages 12th grade reading level. The 13 year old is in the poverty level currently for the average person with that reading ability. (They do not directly use reading grade levels, but I have analyzed reading grade levels of each of the passages used for each literacy level and the numerical scores.)

 

Also, and this data is also in the adult literacy survey, 70% of those using welfare and 70% of prisoners are in that lowest literacy level.

 

Thanks for this! 

 

[Bootsie]

I would want to know a lot more information before I made a decision regarding what to do.  Do you have any idea what the mother is busy doing and why she is gone for a week at a time?  Is there an ill family member?  Does the mother have underlying health issues?  Is the father attentive once he is home?  Why is the family "homeschooling"?  Religious reasons?  Just never got around to enrolling kids in school--but not necessarily opposed to it.  Does the family want to homeschool but not know how?   Does the mother know how to read?  

 

This situation could be the result of many different factors and what would be most beneficial to the children involved would depend on the factors.  If the family really wants to homeschool but doesn't know how, is having health problems, or something else is going on, they might welcome some assistance/suggestions.  Or, they might welcome some assistance in getting their kids enrolled in public school.  If the mother doesn't know how to read, or some other underlying problem exists, getting an authority to scrutinize what they are doing isn't going to change that and have her miraculously turn into a wonderful homeschool teacher.  If the family is fundamentally opposed to education, getting authorities involved will not change their overall philosophy--but, depending upon the state you are in, it could place the kids in public schools.  However, some cooperation on the parents part must exist for that to be successful (kids have to get up and get to school, etc.)

[Tidbits of Learning]

To me, stating you are concerned these kids will come asking you in 10 yrs why you didn't do something is just trying to make an excuse to interfere.

You don't have to be their friends and watch what is going on. I am not sure how you can say they are not unschooling. Unschooling is illegal in many states. But it sounds like you are in Texas and CPS does not investigate "educational neglect." This is definitely a case of MYOB. If you were posting that the kids were starving, locked in closets, beaten, and not getting medical care...then you might have a real complaint. But it sounds like you really want to enforce your way of home schooling on to this family. And the whole idea that the kids will hunt you down in 10 yrs and blame you for whatever is silly. You can see things you disagree with in parenting all around you but you are not butting in to those people business for fear of those kids blaming you for whatever in 10 yrs.

 

The truth is most abuse is hidden so you may see clean, well-dressed children but what is going on behind closed doors may be very different.  So just food for thought but your point of view is look the other way to educational neglect or you are being the snitch on the fact that some people really shouldn't be homeschooling.  It is a very hard truth, but it is out there.  Some people are homeschooling and not doing a single thing.  They aren't unschooling.  They are using their older children as unpaid sitters or using them as hired labor.  It isn't a pretty truth but it is a truth in almost every homeschooling community that there are people who aren't schooling at all and make no bones about that fact.  This mom has made no bones about the fact that she doesn't have time to school the youngers.  That is neglect.  You can't change that fact.  Denying a child an education is selfish.

And like it or not, the statistics about homeschoolers will shift if those that are really schooling turn a blind eye to those that are being neglectful to their children's education for years or decades.  It will start to show and actions will be taken as a whole not as this % of homeschoolers are truly doing well.  It will go in the opposite direction.  It won't be that homeschooling is better than public school if the attitude of anything is better than public school and I should not interfere when it is obvious a 13 yr old is taking on a man's job of helping raise his younger siblings while not receiving an education is considered acceptable by mainstream homeschool society.

 

[BlsdMama]

I've noticed some moms just like to talk in a negative way about what they are doing for their kids.  Some weird kind of anti-competition.  This could be part of what you are experiencing.  When she says "I'm too busy to teach them" it could just be competitive talk.  Where she is trying to uphold some kind of image when she talks to you.

 

The mom has a philosophy about her kids education.  What is it?  There's a reason she is hesitant about these online programs and isn't pushing the academics, there's a reason she's homeschooling and not schooling.  Does she want them to learn independence skills above all else?  Did she push academics with her older children and saw how it backfired so wants to be hands off with the rest of the kids?  Does she want to give her kids the gift of space and time instead of pushing them to grow up too soon?  Does she want them to discover their interests and not have to do anything they are not drawn to?  Or is she just mentally ill and unstable and really unable to see what she is doing?

 

If you don't know any of this, don't call CPS.  You need to talk to the mom.  Get real with her, be confrontational, let her know you don't find it acceptable and see how she justifies it.  Bring it up in front of her AND the kids and see what she says in front of them.   

 

This is absolutely true.

 

Whether or not she has felt comfortable sharing it with you and unless she is utterly and totally without thought (crazy or narcissistic) she HAS some kind of formed philosophy from which she operates.  As she has done this for many years it exists.

Get past WHAT she does and into WHY she does it and you'll be able to advocate for the children because you'll understand her thought process.

 

One of my most beloved friends has a 10yo and a 7yo.  She is a GREAT mom.  But she firmly believes you shouldn't foist things upon children or adults including reading.  Until they specifically ask for instruction (inc. reading) she would not do it.  We disagree in this.  But she IS operating from a philosophy.

 

I find it curious though that you have invested two years into a friendship and you do not know why she does what she does (or doesn't do.)  That's an odd friendship.  She is obviously not comfortable sharing why she does what she does (or, again, doesn't do) with you and gives a flippant answer that she is too busy. 

 

There IS more to this than her just being too busy (assuming she is mentally stable) to do this thing.  We, who function normally, prioritize and do things we deem important.  There is a reason why educating is not a priority.  It is NOT that she is too busy.  

[stripe]

But it sounds like you really want to enforce your way of home schooling on to this family. And the whole idea that the kids will hunt you down in 10 yrs and blame you for whatever is silly. 

I do not at all think that the OP is trying to enforce one way of homeschooling onto this family. Rather, she believes they are not educating at all, and certainly not in line with the legal requirements in her state.

 

I have yet to see any references to a state in which there are zero requirements and no education laws. As far as I know, all states have an age at which children are supposed to receive an education. There are differing views of what that is, and different ways in which parents can go about it, and different ways homeschooling parents document their efforts, but I know of no state in which education of children is optional. (Feel free to post if there is one so I can avoid ever going there.) Ensuring that other people's children are educated and well fed and taken care is a sign of community concern, not of being nosy or dictatorial.

 

I think talking about what children might feel or do in ten years is an expression of the OP's perception of her moral responsibility, rather than some sort of prediction. 

[Justmeandyou]

This is absolutely true.

 

Whether or not she has felt comfortable sharing it with you and unless she is utterly and totally without thought (crazy or narcissistic) she HAS some kind of formed philosophy from which she operates.  As she has done this for many years it exists.

Get past WHAT she does and into WHY she does it and you'll be able to advocate for the children because you'll understand her thought process.

 

One of my most beloved friends has a 10yo and a 7yo.  She is a GREAT mom.  But she firmly believes you shouldn't foist things upon children or adults including reading.  Until they specifically ask for instruction (inc. reading) she would not do it.  We disagree in this.  But she IS operating from a philosophy.

 

I find it curious though that you have invested two years into a friendship and you do not know why she does what she does (or doesn't do.)  That's an odd friendship.  She is obviously not comfortable sharing why she does what she does (or, again, doesn't do) with you and gives a flippant answer that she is too busy. 

 

There IS more to this than her just being too busy (assuming she is mentally stable) to do this thing.  We, who function normally, prioritize and do things we deem important.  There is a reason why educating is not a priority.  It is NOT that she is too busy.  

 

I do know all of that information, I was just trying not to over share and protect privacy.  She is doing what she feels is her life's work, nutrition, oils  and the like.  Spending large amounts of time studying about it and attending conferences etc.Her goal is to teach others about it.  She believes that public school is anti-bibical and therefore won't send her kids.  She means to get around to school, but 'somehow the days just get away from me' because ' I am busy doing more important things' 

There is no malicious intent, she just finds other stuff more appealing and worth her time. 

 

[umsami]

Just want to add about those worrying about CPS removal…far too often either CPS is not notified or they don't act quickly.  Let's be honest here.  Five kids die every single day in the U.S. from neglect and abuse.  That's a big number.

 

 

As to the OP, does your state have a free virtual school the kids could enroll in? That might also offer some intervention regarding any LDs.

 

 

Does your state have local homeschooling contacts? Like in FL, I notify my local county's homeschooling coordinator (or whatever she's called.)  Is it possible to contact one of them instead of CPS?

[Tidbits of Learning]

I do know all of that information, I was just trying not to over share and protect privacy.  She is doing what she feels is her life's work, nutrition, oils  and the like.  Spending large amounts of time studying about it and attending conferences etc.Her goal is to teach others about it.  She believes that public school is anti-bibical and therefore won't send her kids.  She means to get around to school, but 'somehow the days just get away from me' because ' I am busy doing more important things' 

There is no malicious intent, she just finds other stuff more appealing and worth her time. 

 

That is illegal and selfish.  She is putting her needs before the children's needs.  Education is a need.  If she is at conferences and her 13 year old is her "sitter", then she is in the wrong.  Her children are truant.  You should report them to the truancy office so that her children have a chance at a better future.  

I won't candy coat it.  That is neglect.  To put your needs and desires over your children's welfare is bad parenting.  If she wants that to be her life's work, then she needs to outsource her children's education.  If you have watched this for 2 years, it isn't going to change. The kids will just get past the age of her being required to school them and be totally unprepared for life outside of this household.  

[Reefgazer]

Precisely.  It has always been and still is common for the olders to mind the youngers, especially in large families.  That alone does not constitute abuse or neglect.

It is not negligent to hVe an older child baby sit a younger one. This is unnecessary hyperbole and isn't helpful.

My ex boss has her son rearing her younger kids while she works. No homeschooling is happening. I still wouldn't feel it was appropriate to call CPS. CPS has twice investigated them already and nothing has happened

 

[Reefgazer]

I agree with Elizabet1's take on things.  I just really believe it is not anyone's business if her 13 year old watches her kids or how they are educated.  If you feel you *must* do something, I would just speak directly and frankly to her.  But I would avoid CPS like the plague in all but the worst abuse situations. 

Not in Texas.  Your attitude is exactly why I was hesitant to bring it up.  Almost every other person that posted on this  thread disagrees with you though, so I will move forward trying to help. 

 

[justasque]

...The mom has a philosophy about her kids education.  What is it?  There's a reason she is hesitant about these online programs and isn't pushing the academics, there's a reason she's homeschooling and not schooling....

 

 

I do know all of that information, I was just trying not to over share and protect privacy.  She is doing what she feels is her life's work, nutrition, oils  and the like.  Spending large amounts of time studying about it and attending conferences etc.Her goal is to teach others about it.  She believes that public school is anti-bibical and therefore won't send her kids.  She means to get around to school, but 'somehow the days just get away from me' because ' I am busy doing more important things' 

There is no malicious intent, she just finds other stuff more appealing and worth her time.

Are there other educational options in your area that would fit her concerns?  For example, is there a Christian school, or a Christian co-op?  Would a Catholic school be an option?  Does your state have tuition-free online virtual schools?

 

The news loves stories about clashes around religion in public schools.  How anti-Biblical are your local public schools in reality?  Do you or she know Christian families with kids in public schools she could speak to about her concerns to see if they are valid locally? Often in majority-Christian communities, public school teachers, as members of the community themselves, are also Christians.

 

Could you sell an alternate method of education through the idea that it would free her time to pursue her own studies?

 

Does she have a vision for her children's futures?  How much does this vision depend on unrealistic expectations - e.g. that they will be welcomed with open arms by colleges despite low literacy levels, etc.?

 

Is she aware of how far behind they really are?  Have they done any standardized testing?  I am not a fan of high-stakes testing but I have seen good moms get a huge wake-up call when their dc's test scores come back very, very low, causing the mom to re-think their approach.

 

Take a thoughtful, "counselor-speak" approach to your conversations.  "Have you thought about..."  "I have a friend who ..."  "How do you see x playing out?"  With lots of "Hmmmm.....".

[Tidbits of Learning]

It is not negligent to hVe an older child baby sit a younger one. This is unnecessary hyperbole and isn't helpful.

 

My ex boss has her son rearing her younger kids while she works. No homeschooling is happening. I still wouldn't feel it was appropriate to call CPS. CPS has twice investigated them already and nothing has happened

 

 

Please read for content.  No one is saying a 13 yr old babysitting is wrong.  They are saying leaving for a week or more and leaving a 13 yr old to rear younger siblings while a parent works and not have them schooling is not right.  It is illegal.  You have to attend school or you are truant.  By homeschooling and in most states there are laws you must meet minimum standards of education.  Even in TX you must school even though there is little to no oversight.

It is negligent of her to keep her children home from school where they would receive an education and instead have the 13 year old rear the younger children while she pursues her life's calling and not educating her children.

[ElizabethB]

I do know all of that information, I was just trying not to over share and protect privacy. She is doing what she feels is her life's work, nutrition, oils and the like. Spending large amounts of time studying about it and attending conferences etc.Her goal is to teach others about it. She believes that public school is anti-bibical and therefore won't send her kids. She means to get around to school, but 'somehow the days just get away from me' because ' I am busy doing more important things'

There is no malicious intent, she just finds other stuff more appealing and worth her time.

To make sure her children are able to learn directly from the Bible and not be led astray from false teachings, they need to read well. The NIV is 7th to 8th grade level, the KJV is 12th grade level, here is a link showing grade levels of various Bible translations.

 

http://www.christianbook.com/page/bibles/about-bibles/bible-translation-reading-levels?&sp=1003&event=GOOGORG

[Justmeandyou]

This simply is not correct. The 13 yr old watching the kids for five school days doesn't make them truant. It makes them on fall break. I mean you can construe it however you want. It's smply not cut and dried.

 

I tend to agree Ed neglect may be an issue but I see no reason this can't be dealt with friend to friend. And can assure you based on what I saw with my boss that CPS won't much care.

 

You can't be on break if you don't work in the first place.

[shinyhappypeople]

Well then unschoolers must always be on break.

 

There is some funky distinction being made between this mom and unschoolers which i can't quite grasp.  Some unschooled kids don't choose to learn to read and their moms wouldn't push it on them based on the unschooled philosophy.  We have no idea what these kids DO know or how they spend their time.

 

 

 I think we are missing an awful lot of info.  Only the OP knows the family.  The best most direct approach would be for her to have a frank discussion with the mother.  The rest of the suggested approaches (esp the one about casually mentioning the family to a mandatory reporter) are pretty questionable.  Unless the OP feels strongly that the kids are being neglected and in that case call CPS.  Today.  or yesterday.

 

According to the OP, the mom doesn't describe her children as being unschooled.  She (the mom) says that she intends to teach them but never gets around to it.

[purduemeche]

If you are both part of the church (universal, not necessarily the same congregation), then consider the scriptural guidelines for church discipline before involving the authorities.

[Tidbits of Learning]

This simply is not correct. The 13 yr old watching the kids for five school days doesn't make them truant. It makes them on fall break. I mean you can construe it however you want. It's smply not cut and dried.

 

I tend to agree Ed neglect may be an issue but I see no reason this can't be dealt with friend to friend. And can assure you based on what I saw with my boss that CPS won't much care.

 

That will depend on where you live.  Here 5 absences equal a court date for truancy court and the parent is fined.  So it is considered a significant issue and tax dollars are spent on making sure all school aged children are in fact in school or if they are homeschooled that they are being educated.  If someone were to report a situation such as this here, it would be investigated and most likely the children would have to either be proven to be schooling without the eldest as primary caregiver during the day or they would have to be returned to a school setting.  

The trouble with these type of threads are perspective.  What one person sees as neglect or abuse another person sees as a right of choice.  This thread will go around in circles.  Every state is different and all of us have different perspectives, but I will say that I have been friends with many homeschoolers that were not schooling over the last 6 years and those that graduated their kids out at 16 b/c they were finally old enough they didn't have to report have kids that were not able to test into the military, community college, or other options.  I can name on one hand the homeschool "graduates" that were in this type of situation who are now working in fast food or other low income, poverty level jobs with no chance of quality of life improvement in sight.

That is bleak for a 16-20 year old that can barely read and do math.  That is educational neglect.

[HS Mom in NC]

They're breaking the law. Christians are only allowed to break the law if obeying it directly contradicts God's commandments or teachings. They're also supposed to be prepared to happily endure any consequences that come from choosing to break the law for His sake.  Educational neglect doesn't fit that criteria.

 

I assume all states have educational neglect laws on the books.  This family is required by law to educate their children one way or another and they know it.  If they're not going to do it at home, they have to do it somewhere else.  If it were me, I'd go to my state run website and see how to report abuse according to the rules.  If I couldn't find the information I needed online, I'd call the local non-emergency police number and ask them how to proceed.Someone with legal authority to do so will have to follow up with her to make sure her kids are being educated-that's not the role of a friend.  That's the role of a state employed social worker. 

 

I've known literally dozens of unschooling families.  This is not unschooling.

[MomatHWTK]

I do know all of that information, I was just trying not to over share and protect privacy.  She is doing what she feels is her life's work, nutrition, oils  and the like.  Spending large amounts of time studying about it and attending conferences etc.Her goal is to teach others about it.  She believes that public school is anti-bibical and therefore won't send her kids.  She means to get around to school, but 'somehow the days just get away from me' because ' I am busy doing more important things' 

There is no malicious intent, she just finds other stuff more appealing and worth her time. 

 

 

That's just wrong and if you are her friend you should tell her.  :grouphug:   Indulging one's own desires over one's obligations is also un-Biblical, IMO. 

[Tanaqui]

It is not negligent to have an older child baby sit a younger one. This is unnecessary hyperbole and isn't helpful.

 

No, but there's a difference between babysitting your siblings and raising them. One of those two things is most definitely inappropriate.

 

My ex boss has her son rearing her younger kids while she works. No homeschooling is happening. I still wouldn't feel it was appropriate to call CPS. CPS has twice investigated them already and nothing has happened

 

Clearly, at least one other person in your area disagrees with you about when it is and is not appropriate to call CPS. Whether or not child services will do anything, sometimes the fact that people are watching can change behavior. That's unfortunate when the parents aren't doing anything wrong - but in this case, the parents *are* doing something wrong.

 

 

[AimeeM]

It absolutely constitutes neglect if that the 13 year old is rearing the younger children means she isn't getting an education (and the younger children aren't getting an education).

We aren't talking about intentional unschooling here - we're talking about mom admittedly being "too busy" to teach them anything. We're talking about children who, when they are 18, or are ever put into a brick and mortar school environment are going to be grossly behind, through no wrong doing of their own. The 13 year old is almost high school age (if she isn't already). While she's busy rearing her siblings, she is missing out on just the very basics that would allow her to obtain a GED. Even GED prep classes assume at least some amount of literacy and basic math.

Precisely.  It has always been and still is common for the olders to mind the youngers, especially in large families.  That alone does not constitute abuse or neglect.

 

[regentrude]

Precisely.  It has always been and still is common for the olders to mind the youngers, especially in large families.  That alone does not constitute abuse or neglect.

 

But they should not be raising their siblings instead of receiving an education.

A 13 y/o who has to watch her younger siblings can not even self-educate. This is educational neglect.

If parents can't be bothered to educate their kids themselves, they need to send them to school. According to the OP, this is not a short term crisis situation or an unschooling philosophy - it's a mom who puts her own wants before her children's educational needs and simply does not wish to put in the work. Situations like this give homeschooling a bad name ... that's precisely why some people call for more oversight.

 

ETA: Just because something "has always been common" does not mean it is good. It has been common for girls to get married off in their young teens, for 8 year olds to work all day instead of going to school, for husbands to beat their wives. That does not make it acceptable.

[StartingOver]

There is nothing to do. I live in a state with no oversight. I don't want anyone out there reporting me for my choices. I could never unschool, but I can't tell other parents to do what I want. 

 

I do truly believe that kids will learn despite what mistakes parents might do. I have seen some apply to college to learn that they need to do a lot of work. It is sad, but again not my child. I have also seen children unschool and be leaps ahead of some other children I know that were very rigorously taught.

 

Your child, your business. My child my business. Simple.

[sewingmama]

There is a difference between unschoolers and this mom. Unschoolers will help their children when asked....this mom has said she won't teach her kids. So if her kids ask to learn to read she is not going to show them how. That is not unschooling...its just neglect.

 

Public school was invented ( tongue in cheek ) for moms who have " more important things to do" then worry about their kids education. Most of us here homeschool because of how much importance we place on our kids education...doesn't matter the philosophy.

 

This mom comes across as saying that her kids education is way down on her list of values...which means she should not be homeschooling.

 

There are so many other things I could be doing rather then teaching my kids every day..... but their education is important to me and I put it above most everything right now. My house is messy, I would love to sew once in a blue moon and we really could use extra income.... but I sit my butt at the table everyday for hours so my kids are educated properly...or at least comparably to the public schools.

 

The red flags here are...

 

1. Lack of value and importance and priority placed on educating her kids

2. Not wanting to teach them....even if they ask

3. Not implementing independent studies if she doesn't want to teach

4.Not being home consistently to support her kids learning... whichever philosophy she uses

5. Children being isolated from society when she is not home.... they can't drive themselves anywhere and I'd be surprised if people saw a group of kids like this out and about...not in school...without a parent...that they would't have already been reported. it's possible Mom may instruct them to stay inside to avoid this (not saying she actually does).

 

I think the biggest issue for me is her leaving them at home alone for so long at a time. Surely they get lonely and bored. Education aside...this would be the one factor that would get me to send my kids to school...I just wouldn't want my kids sitting at home alone like that. I can't imagine leaving my 8 yo like that... and I'm sure the olders miss their moms interaction as well.

[umsami]

 

 

Your child, your business. My child my business. Simple.

 

I think this attitude is extremely dangerous.  It's an attitude which allows abuse of all kinds to take place.  it's an attitude which allowed domestic violence to go unpunished for centuries in this country.  

 

We should care about our neighbor's children…especially if they are abused.  Children should not have to "save themselves."

[redsquirrel]

You are a new poster, and I am hoping this isn't a 'lets see what the crazy homeschoolers say about this' type of post.

 

Calling CPS is unlikely to result in the kids being removed. They are not in danger. Even with the 13 year old watching them, they are not in danger. Is it optimal? No, but highly doubtful it would result in actual removal. Maybe a good talking to and discussion with them about safety planning with the 13 year old etc. 13 year olds are allowed to babysit for money.

 

What is likely to happen is that the parents would be told they must either enroll the kids in school, or show they are drastically changing their homeschool approach if they want to get CPS out of their life. If they don't then they will find themselves in a very different situation. But, really, do good parents not change their educational philosophy if they are told the option is removal? If they would rather lose their kids than educate them, then the kids are better off elsewhere.

 

And if they were removed, CPS first has to look for family, so the daughter who already has kids might get approached etc.

[idnib]

If she's religious, is it possible to speak or write a letter to a church leader for help? Perhaps they can approach her from a Biblical point of view.

[shinyhappypeople]

There is a difference between unschoolers and this mom. Unschoolers will help their children when asked....this mom has said she won't teach her kids. So if her kids ask to learn to read she is not going to show them how. That is not unschooling...its just neglect.

 

Public school was invented ( tongue in cheek ) for moms who have " more important things to do" then worry about their kids education. Most of us here homeschool because of how much importance we place on our kids education...doesn't matter the philosophy.

 

This mom comes across as saying that her kids education is way down on her list of values...which means she should not be homeschooling.

 

There are so many other things I could be doing rather then teaching my kids every day..... but their education is important to me and I put it above most everything right now. My house is messy, I would love to sew once in a blue moon and we really could use extra income.... but I sit my butt at the table everyday for hours so my kids are educated properly...or at least comparably to the public schools.

 

The red flags here are...

 

1. Lack of value and importance and priority placed on educating her kids

2. Not wanting to teach them....even if they ask

3. Not implementing independent studies if she doesn't want to teach

4.Not being home consistently to support her kids learning... whichever philosophy she uses

5. Children being isolated from society when she is not home.... they can't drive themselves anywhere and I'd be surprised if people saw a group of kids like this out and about...not in school...without a parent...that they would't have already been reported. it's possible Mom may instruct them to stay inside to avoid this (not saying she actually does).

 

I think the biggest issue for me is her leaving them at home alone for so long at a time. Surely they get lonely and bored. Education aside...this would be the one factor that would get me to send my kids to school...I just wouldn't want my kids sitting at home alone like that. I can't imagine leaving my 8 yo like that... and I'm sure the olders miss their moms interaction as well.

 

Yeah, I don't understand the bolded at.all.  For the child who can read well (the 13 yo, right?) he could be set up with AO Lifepacs for every subject.  Voila.  Opportunity to learn with appropriate materials.    Educational neglect is no longer an issue for him. Perhaps he can ask dad for help in the evenings if he finds something particularly difficult (not much different than helping with homework at public school).

 

If she'd just bother to teach the others to read, she could do the same for them:  Lifepacs, SOS, CLE, Time 4 Learning, or Ace Paces.  Any of those programs would give the kids something to build from.  Just give them something.   TT is expensive but all 3 could use it and work through it, so really not a bad deal.  Why not sign the non-readers up for something like reading eggs (maybe a bit babyish for their ages, but desperate times....) or a similar program and let them self-teach reading - at least a little.  Surely they'd be better off than they are now.  

 

It's so frustrating to know that these types of situations exist. :(

 

OK - something just hit me.  If she feels she can't put the children in public school because it's "unbiblical," I wonder if she's homeschooling against her will on some level.  She'd obviously rather be pursuing other interests right now (which is totally fine!), but she's stuck where she is and - intentionally or not - she's being passive aggressive as all get out.  As in, "You can forbid me from sending my kids to school but you can't make me really, truly homeschool them."  That's total speculation, I admit, but it would explain her behavior.  In fact, it's the only explanation that makes sense to me.  Why else would an otherwise loving mother behave in such a way?

[AimeeM]

There is nothing to do. I live in a state with no oversight. I don't want anyone out there reporting me for my choices. I could never unschool, but I can't tell other parents to do what I want. 

 

I do truly believe that kids will learn despite what mistakes parents might do. I have seen some apply to college to learn that they need to do a lot of work. It is sad, but again not my child. I have also seen children unschool and be leaps ahead of some other children I know that were very rigorously taught.

 

Your child, your business. My child my business. Simple.

Children who are not taught HOW to learn will not be able to do so successfully. This isn't an unschooling home - learning isn't being modeled. The children, from what I've read, aren't provided with materials. The child who can read, can't do it well enough to read age appropriate texts. 

Children who are unschooled, really unschooled, and then get to college to discover they have a lot to do first, usually find out that they need to take remedial algebra - not learn the basics of addition and subtraction; they may learn that they need to take a remedial level writing course at the tech school - not learn how to spell the basics, or form a coherent sentence; they may learn that they need to take a semester of reading tutorial - not learn basic phonics. It is not okay, prudent, or even comprehensible to assume a child can teach themselves everything they need to know. Unschoolers (and I'm no fan of unschooling, even at its best) at least are willing to teach when the child wants to learn (this mother isn't), and model learning, give access to materials, etc.

[Justmeandyou]

I'll buck up and talk to her.  I've talked around the subject and she always says that she needs to teach or hire a tutor, but I haven't been super direct.  I dislike confrontation :(

[Arcadia]

I've talked around the subject and she always says that she needs to teach or hire a tutor, but I haven't been super direct.

How about high schoolers from her church doing free tutoring as volunteer hours?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It's not up to the OP or homeschool groups or the church or the community to pitch in and teach these kids. In this country we already have a resource for children whose parents are unable or unwilling to teach them. It's free, it's better than nothing, and it's down the street (or a free bus ride away):

 

Public School.

[Justmeandyou]

The area has what are considered excellent public schools. 

[Mom22ns]

Your child, your business. My child my business. Simple.

 

Fortunately for the children, that doesn't it doesn't legally have to be that way.

 

Every adult I have ever spoken to that was once an abused child has the same question, "Why didn't anyone help me?" 

 

I think it is great the OP is looking for options and considers CPS as a last option, I agree with that. However, I also agree with all those here who believe that from the OP's perspective she is witnessing educational neglect. Since she believes that to be the case, she should pursue it as far as necessary to change it or until her options are exhausted. 

 

I don't expect everyone to agree. This thread could go on forever. However, I do want to encourage the OP. Hang in there. The kids need help. Giving it, especially in a low over site state is hard and risky, but I'm glad you are stepping up on their behalf.

:grouphug:

[GrammarGirl]

I had a college student write a personal narrative for me once about his father neglecting his education while "homeschooling." The student as a teen was very concerned about his own future because of the neglect and took matters into his own hands, convincing his dad to order him some textbooks. Not every child can do this for himself. Definitely notify the authorities. Even if the state does nothing, your own conscience will be clear.

[maize]

I'll buck up and talk to her. I've talked around the subject and she always says that she needs to teach or hire a tutor, but I haven't been super direct. I dislike confrontation :(

Could you gather some stories, preferably from your own state but other states might work too, about families being prosecuted for educational neglect? If there were just one story from your state you could show it to the mom and tell her how worried you are that this could happen to her family. Offer to help find tutors. A homeschooled teen might be really happy to have a tutoring job working with the youngers, though I am thinking the 13 year old may need intervention by someone who has experience teaching remedial reading and who may be able to pick up signs of dyslexia or other reading problems. The mom is not against the idea of the kids being taught but isn't making it a priority herself; I think I would push as much as you can on the tutor idea since she is open to that. I would just keep bringing it up: "have you found a tutor yet?"; "I mentioned to so-and-so you were looking for a tutor and she seemed interested"; etc.. If mom is really just not in the ball when it comes to her kids' education, friendly reminders of this sort just might be enough to spur her to action.

[kiwik]

If people who claim to home school turn out large numbers (or are even perceived to do so) them home schooling will become more and more controlled and possibly be outlawed.

 

Also you say the house is well cared for and the children well fed. Is this because the 13 year old is doing that too? I worked with a woman once who ran her household from about 11 when her mother died until she came to the attention of the authorities at 13 when she got pregnant. They were so worried about being taken away from their dad they had tea prepared before they went to school and the house was spotless.

Another thought - do you think the mother would actually like someone to intervene (similar to what another poster said).

[StartingOver]

Oh really? Someone on the internet tells you a story and you all believe it. Do you know the family? Do you know their situation? I don't believe much on the internet. If there was really a concern, my concern, I would address it. I wouldn't be on the net asking if I should do the right thing.

[Justmeandyou]

Could you gather some stories, preferably from your own state but other states might work too, about families being prosecuted for educational neglect? If there were just one story from your state you could show it to the mom and tell her how worried you are that this could happen to her family. Offer to help find tutors. A homeschooled teen might be really happy to have a tutoring job working with the youngers, though I am thinking the 13 year old may need intervention by someone who has experience teaching remedial reading and who may be able to pick up signs of dyslexia or other reading problems. The mom is not against the idea of the kids being taught but isn't making it a priority herself; I think I would push as much as you can on the tutor idea since she is open to that. I would just keep bringing it up: "have you found a tutor yet?"; "I mentioned to so-and-so you were looking for a tutor and she seemed interested"; etc.. If mom is really just not in the ball when it comes to her kids' education, friendly reminders of this sort just might be enough to spur her to action.

 

I'll look for some stories, that is a good idea.  I am trying to find some tutors- boy are they expensive!  $40 an hour.  I had no idea.

She'd happily send them to me if I could take them, but I just can't.  My plate is totally full with my own kids. Homeschooling is a full time job.  There are several dyslexia testing programs here, so I'll give her those as well.