What to do if a family is not teaching their children

[Justmeandyou]

A family I know has lots o' kids.  The younger 4 are way behind.  Moms tells me flat out that she does not have time to teach then, she is busy doing other stuff.  3 olders are out of the house.

 

13 yo can barely read at 2nd grade level, 11 yo reads well, 8 and 10 y.o.s know the letters/sounds.  No one does math. 

 

I live in a state with no oversight.  

 

Kids are fed, clean, house is fine. 

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

UPDATE:  THEY ARE ALL IN A SMALL PRIVATE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL AND DOING WELL.  MOST RECENT UPDATE #519

[Elisabet1]

It is their business.

 

Also..I do not unschool and used to think it was horrid and should be illegal. Recently, I have run in to some unschoolers I knew years ago who I thought for sure would have kids in prison by now, or at least living off their parents. To the contrary, some have graduated college, some are in grad school, some are in college. So, I guess, I don't know all. I cannot and should not judge others.

 

So forget it. Let it go. Their family, their children. Maybe they think you are overworking your children. Who knows. 

[desertflower]

How and what are the 3 older ones are doing?

[desertflower]

I'm agree with pp. I guess I asked about the older 3 kids to rethink my answer.

 

I think we have different priorities. Her house is clean. Kudos to her. Mine isn't always clean. My neighbor dropped by unexpectedly twice and both times......well let's just say I'm glad he didn't call dfacs. Lol

 

I think that it is gteat that you are concerned, but I'm sure she's providing the best loving environment she can.

 

Her household her rules. That's what is so great about America.

[Reefgazer]

I don't think there is anything you can or should do.  Education and educational enforcement are the province of the state government, not individuals, and the state has chosen not to require much.

[stripe]

No oversight doesn't mean no requirements or that feeding them and keeping them clean is sufficient.

 

The state may have to PROVE neglect, versus the parent supplying planning documents or test scores, but that doesn't mean anything is acceptable.

 

Many states are vague but say that homeschooling must be comparable to what is taught in public schools. If there is no discernable difference between being truant and being homeschooled, there is a problem.

[Justmeandyou]

They are not unschooling.  Mom has openly stated to me many times that she does not and will not be teaching them as she is too busy with other things. She has been gone for the past week.  13 yo has been home watching all kids while dad works.  8 yo stayed with me today (I was concerned and asked if she could stay the day with me).   Oldest is married 2 kids (23), next is a drug addict, whereabouts unknown, third left home at 16 and i s living with someone and trying to pass the GED so he can get into the military. 

 

My concern is these kids asking me in 10 years why I did not do something to make sure they were able to read/write and do basic math. 

 

 

ETA:  rules for this state are something like "must include reading, math, spelling and grammar and must be actively pursued."  Nothing else.

[Paige]

Sounds like educational neglect to me. Children have a right to an education- that's why public school is free and school of some kind is compulsory. We have the freedom to decide where the education will take place- will they be in public, private, or home schools; but some kind of educating should be happening.

 

I'm not opposed to unschooling with concerned and involved parents or those who follow the better late than early philosophy. I'm opposed to no schooling. If education is not being actively pursued in some form, then there's a problem.

[Syllieann]

She is not educating them. She is in violation if the law. Why doesn't she just send them to school? Is there a life threatening allergy? Are they in witness protection? I'm grasping at straws here, but barring extreme circumstances it sounds like they would be much better off at public school. Is it even legal for the 13 yo to care for the others for a week? Sounds like there is neglect...in more areas than education. I would probably report it and leave it to the authorities to sort out.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Mom leaving for the week with a 13yo in charge while Dad is at work? That is a "real" issue. The success or failure of their homeschool is not really the business of the neighborhood but unattended minors who don't go to school is the business of local authorities. Although you don't have to start there. You could just ask the parents if everything's OK, if it's not normal for Mom to leave them like that.

[Stellalarella]

There are two "simple to do" options:

Doing nothing.  

And calling in authorities--one phone call and you're done.  

 

The other option is building a relationship with the family.  That's not easy or fast.  

 

 

[hjffkj]

If she admits to purposely not teaching them and having no intention of doing so in would report it. Children deserve an education but can not fight for their own rights to one.

[Justmeandyou]

The only recourse would be to call CPS, which has the potential to be really awful.  I am just torn. 

[maize]

I am hesitant to involve authorities because they can be heavy handed; in the circumstances you describe I might consider it as a last resort because the children really do need access to education. I think though that I would first see what I could do myself. If the kids have computer/internet access and an interest in learning, get them set up with some online resources like reading eggs, Khan academy, Timez attack, etc. If no computer access, at least provide some curricula and an incentive if they show progress--of course this would have to be acceptable to the parents.

[Justmeandyou]

Mom leaving for the week with a 13yo in charge while Dad is at work? That is a "real" issue. The success or failure of their homeschool is not really the business of the neighborhood but unattended minors who don't go to school is the business of local authorities. Although you don't have to start there. You could just ask the parents if everything's OK, if it's not normal for Mom to leave them like that.

 

It is pretty normal. Sometimes they are able to farm kids out.  For a few months they had a part time nanny/sitter.  Dad is home for breakfast and dinner. 

There are two "simple to do" options:

Doing nothing.  

And calling in authorities--one phone call and you're done.  

 

The other option is building a relationship with the family.  That's not easy or fast.  

 

I have a 2 year relationship which is why I know the kids are uneducated and why the mom has told me she is not teaching.  I just can't convince her to do something else. Sigh.

[Justmeandyou]

I am hesitant to involve authorities because they can be heavy handed; in the circumstances you describe I might consider it as a last resort because the children really do need access to education. I think though that I would first see what I could do myself. If the kids have computer/internet access and an interest in learning, get them set up with some online resources like reading eggs, Khan academy, Timez attack, etc. If no computer access, at least provide some curricula and an incentive if they show progress--of course this would have to be acceptable to the parents.

 

I have encouraged mom to look at Easy Peasy (free, all online) and Khan academy, reading eggs, Starfall,  as well  Teaching Textbooks.  All fairly hands off.  While not perfect, it is better than nothing.  No luck.

 

She is willing to enroll kids in weekly (paid) homeschool tutoring for high school, but these kids aren't going to be able to do Algebra when they hit 9th grade.

 

 

And I agree, calling CPS could result in removal from the home, which would be awful. 

[maize]

Mom leaving for the week with a 13yo in charge while Dad is at work? That is a "real" issue. The success or failure of their homeschool is not really the business of the neighborhood but unattended minors who don't go to school is the business of local authorities. Although you don't have to start there. You could just ask the parents if everything's OK, if it's not normal for Mom to leave them like that.

13 is old enough to babysit, dad is home during after work hours. I'm sure plenty of working parents leave school-age kids at home through daytime hours during school breaks if one is a teenager, this in itself isn't a huge red flag to me.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It is pretty normal. Sometimes they are able to farm kids out.  For a few months they had a part time nanny/sitter.  Dad is home for breakfast and dinner. 

 

I have a 2 year relationship which is why I know the kids are uneducated and why the mom has told me she is not teaching.  I just can't convince her to do something else. Sigh.

 

Don't sigh. You are not powerless. Call CPS or the local truant officer if all of this is true and you know first-hand that the kids are not OK. If all is well and they are law-abiding then they will be left to their lifestyle choices. If all is not well and the minor children are being left at home alone with no education or parental oversight then they need some help.

 

On the other hand, if you think the kids are OK and all is fine, not your cup of tea but fine, then don't call.

 

This is not difficult. You either think they need intervention or you don't think they need intervention.

[Tidbits of Learning]

The truth is that you need to contact someone.  It does not have to be CPS.  Contact anyone that would be considered a mandatory reporter and tell them this sad story.  They will have to report it.  

I think turning a blind eye to educational neglect as it is the right of a parent to deny their children an education speaks volumes for a person's ethics.  The ability and right to home educate does not equate to the right to deny a child at an education and a chance at a better future.  

[maize]

I have encouraged mom to look at Easy Peasy (free, all online) and Khan academy, reading eggs, Starfall, as well Teaching Textbooks. All fairly hands off. While not perfect, it is better than nothing. No luck.

 

She is willing to enroll kids in weekly (paid) homeschool tutoring for high school, but these kids aren't going to be able to do Algebra when they hit 9th grade.

 

 

And I agree, calling CPS could result in removal from the home, which would be awful.

Do you know what dad's take on all this is? What about the kids themselves? Do they have an interest in learning? What do they spend their days doing?

 

And...what is mom so busy with?

[Justmeandyou]

Do you know what dad's take on all this is? What about the kids themselves? Do they have an interest in learning? What do they spend their days doing?

 

And...what is mom so busy with?

 

Kids would like to learn.  I suspect the 13 yo may have a learning disability, but I am not sure as there hasn't been enough instruction. 

 

Mom is pursuing other interests.  She is a fun mom.  They travel a good bit. 

[Justmeandyou]

Thanks.  Lots to ponder. 

[maize]

If the parents are willing to hire a tutor for high school would they consider it sooner? If mom is just not interested I wonder if dad could be brought to take a greater interest in the children's schooling. Thirteen is awfully close to high school age...

[Paige]

Have you discussed with mom (or dad) the homeschool laws of your state and does she understand what her obligations are? In other words, is she aware that what she is doing is most likely legally neglect and could get her family in trouble? Maybe she would step up or send them to school if she knew how serious the situation could be.

[rocassie]

If mom is purposefully not seeing to their education, I think it is a form of neglect.  My second thought is what other neglect is possibly going on that you don't see.  Yes the house is clean and kept up and the kids are fed, but what other things is she not providing for her children or doing to her children that you don't see.  That feeling in your gut is telling you something is not right.  

 

I hesitate to involve authorities because it can be taken to far, but it can often lead to a better family environment without the kids being removed.  The one thing you know is that the kids are not being educated which is a basic parental responsibility that she is not fulfilling by her own word (not just that you THINK she isn't educating them.)  If she is not open to any educational opportunities for those kids, then I think you should treat it as you would suspected abuse and report it. 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

And I agree, calling CPS could result in removal from the home, which would be awful.

 

If the children aren't learning anything at all, and they routinely spend long periods of time unsupervised, isn't it already awful? I mean, you're not just guessing here that these kids aren't learning, you *know* them and their mom feels no compunction about admitting to you that she has no intention of remedying the situation. That second part really would give me some pause. I don't up and confess my worst traits and moments to just anybody, not unless those moments are safely in the past or there's some real benefit to talking about them. Neither of those seem to apply here. Either she's a lot more open than most people are, or there's other stuff going on that, from her perspective, makes the educational neglect seem comparatively mild, such that she feels no shame or concern about it.

 

I mean, look. There are other possible solutions that don't involve calling in outside parties. Most of those involve making YOURSELF the outside party and taking on these kids as an informal foster situation, making sure they get fed and educated and somebody pays attention to them during the day. That's a lot of work that you might not really be able to follow through on, especially if not everybody is on board with this plan. I don't know what the best bet is, but concerns about foster care being awful (and in my experience, even kids in really, REALLY awful situations don't get taken by foster care as easily as you might think) have to be weighed against the realities of the situation as it stands.

 

[wingedradical]

<<13 yo can barely read at 2nd grade level, 11 yo reads well, 8 and 10 y.o.s know the letters/sounds.  No one does math. >>

 

 

That sounds just like some public schooled kids I know. Seriously.

 

I remember when I lived in MO (a state where you didn't have to report, really), but very near AR where homeschooled kids had to be tested periodically in order to see if they were "keeping up." If they tested badly, the solution was to send them back to school. Which made me ask .."Uh, does that mean your are going to send home all the kids now flunking in AR schools?"

 

Looking at the older children is of no real use, imo. If this family has learning disabilities (or just isn't too smart - it happens), then the older ones will look like failures. What I guess I'm saying is, that getting the kids into school might not help anyway.

 

I am more concerned about her leaving a 13 year old in charge all day every day (until Dad comes home) for the week (especially if you meant the mom is actually out of town - is that what you meant?).

 

Can your husband talk to Dad about concerns in a nice, non-confrontive way?

 

It is a very serious thing to call CPS, especially if there isn't abuse or physical or psychological neglect. I would be very hesitant to call over "educational neglect." I'm not saying it isn't neglect, just that if kids are well cared for physically and emotionally, I"m not sure they'd thank you in long term if they ended up in foster homes. And once you call CPS (or whatever it is called where you are), you don't have control over what happens next. Most social workers are good people who care about kids but there are a few individuals and departments with agendas. You can catch up on your education much more easily than you can recover from being separated from people who love you.

 

[Arcadia]

I'll see if you can bring the 13 year old to a free reading program. I can't tell what is considered 2nd grade level for reading. However her reading skills would hinder her from self studying down the road.

A lot of the public middle school textbooks for math and science are decent for self study but the child needs to be comfortable reading and understanding.

 

ETA:

People become drug addicts even with caring parents. I've had drug addicts for neighbors.

[shinyhappypeople]

<<13 yo can barely read at 2nd grade level, 11 yo reads well, 8 and 10 y.o.s know the letters/sounds.  No one does math. >>

 

 

That sounds just like some public schooled kids I know. Seriously.

 

 

That's not correct.  Kids in public school are at least offered some kind of education.  It may not be effective or wonderful or enriching in all cases, but the opportunity to learn to read and do math exists.  What this mom is doing is abusive.  She knows (or should know) what life holds for adults who can't read or perform basic math.  She is sentencing them to a life of poverty because she can't even be bothered to try.  At least public schools try.

 

I'm hesitant to call CPS... yet.  But if I truly cared about this mom and her family I would absolutely sit down with the parents and have a serious 'tough love' talk about the fact that what she is doing is educational neglect and that educational neglect is abuse.  I would describe in detail the likely consequences for their children, and that the parents run the very real risk of having the children removed from the home if they don't correct the situation.  

 

I care too much about my friends to watch them stand on the railroad tracks facing a speeding train without yelling a warning and shoving them to safety if I have to.  It is not loving to watch a friend neglect her children.  If I truly cared about her, I would risk pissing her off or even losing the relationship, if I knew that my actions might keep her and her children from serious harm.

 

If a tough love talk did no good I would call CPS.  More than likely the kids wouldn't be removed from an otherwise safe home.  More than likely they'd be required to enroll them in public school -- which, honestly, is where they should be if mom is "too busy" to homeschool. 

[ElizabethB]

My free online phonics lessons for the 13, 10, and 8 year old and anyone else who needs them.

 

:grouphug:

 

They take ten hours total, most students improve a grade level or two, I had one young adult improve 6 grade levels after watching them through once. I also had a 6th grader who watched them through 3 times, gaining a grade level each time.

[ElizabethB]

Eventually, they should be doing some math as well at a minimum. But, reading is important to start first, if you read well you can read your math instructions, your science book, your history book, your job training manual, your tax form instructions (OK, those are a bit high of a reading level and not entirely in English, but you get my point.)

 

The schools generally do not so a good job with remedial reading, so getting them in school somehow would not help there, but once they are reading well being in school might help with the other subjects, they are generally better at working with students who are behind math and other subjects. Or, if motivation could be given to the parents and/or children somehow, once they are reading well they can more easily do independent work in their other subjects.

[ElizabethB]

She is sentencing them to a life of poverty because she can't even be bothered to try.

.

I agree. And, there is proof, literacy is more highly correlated with earnings than IQ. The 13 year old sounds like she is solidly in literacy level 1, poverty level earnings average. Here is a graph of how the literacy levels correlate to earnings:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/profitable.html

[Student Mommie]

I've noticed some moms just like to talk in a negative way about what they are doing for their kids.  Some weird kind of anti-competition.  This could be part of what you are experiencing.  When she says "I'm too busy to teach them" it could just be competitive talk.  Where she is trying to uphold some kind of image when she talks to you.

 

The mom has a philosophy about her kids education.  What is it?  There's a reason she is hesitant about these online programs and isn't pushing the academics, there's a reason she's homeschooling and not schooling.  Does she want them to learn independence skills above all else?  Did she push academics with her older children and saw how it backfired so wants to be hands off with the rest of the kids?  Does she want to give her kids the gift of space and time instead of pushing them to grow up too soon?  Does she want them to discover their interests and not have to do anything they are not drawn to?  Or is she just mentally ill and unstable and really unable to see what she is doing?

 

If you don't know any of this, don't call CPS.  You need to talk to the mom.  Get real with her, be confrontational, let her know you don't find it acceptable and see how she justifies it.  Bring it up in front of her AND the kids and see what she says in front of them.   

[kiwik]

You have to do something even just for your own sake. Here leaving a 13 year old in charge of a bunch of kids would be illegal (though it would be ok as soon as he turned 14) but from these boards it seems like many people babysit from about 12.

 

Is there a truant officer. They are usually good at talking to parents and here at least are more proactive and positive than many agencies.

[Pawz4me]

If someone already asked about this, I missed it and forgive me --  Where is dad in this picture?  I know you said he goes to work, but that doesn't absolve him of other responsibilities regarding his kids.  Do you know his thoughts on the matter?  Can you talk to him about the situation?  Convince him to send the kids to school?  Honestly, the easy answer here seems to be that the kids need to be in public school.  If you know dad, I'd try to get him on board with that. If that's not possible then I'd call CPS.

[sewingmama]

It doesn't sound right to me. Has she told you why she is homeschooling or what her philosophy is? It is possible for children to unschool well but if mom is gone all the time and Dad works how are these kids getting access to what they need? if they want to read about things how do they get to the library? Is the mom providing them with resources so they can work on their own projects?

 

What do these kids do all day when home alone? Watch tv, play video games?

 

Honestly I don't understand the mom. If she is away a lot and doesn't want to teach them why is she homeschooling ( which she isn't).

 

I would talk to the mom about it and find out what her point is. If she has no sound reason and isn't willing to make changes then I would call the local school to send the truant officer around.

 

The kids are not going to learn anything at home on their own without access to resources ...how can they even go out during the day. It's just wrong to leave your kids inside all day alone.

 

If my circumstances were the same....no matter how much I loved the idea of homeschooling I would send mine to school. It isn't right to keep them isolated like that for large amounts of time ( yes I realise she probably takes them out when she is home but a week at a time of periodic isolation is just wrong).

[stripe]

<<13 yo can barely read at 2nd grade level, 11 yo reads well, 8 and 10 y.o.s know the letters/sounds. No one does math. >>

 

That sounds just like some public schooled kids I know. Seriously.

 

All of my children's 8-10 year old friends in public school can read beyond the sounds of the alphabet, and all have math as a scheduled activity at school.

 

[edited: removed post that was suspected spam. But content was, she's doing the best she can]

It's fine if mom can't homeschool -- my mom had no interest, but that's why there are schools. Being a decent HSing parent demands more than being a decent mom. Keeping the kids clean and fed is just ridiculously not enough.

[Violet Crown]

I think that it is gteat that you are concerned, but I'm sure she's providing the best loving environment she can.[/

Spambot reported. Don't click on link.

[desertflower]

I think there's more to this. She leaves a 13 year old in charge who may have a learning disability? His disability may be the reason he has 2nd grade reading level.

 

Quote: she is a fun mom. House is clean. Children are fed. They all travel together. Dad is home for breakfast and dinner.

 

Yes, dad knows if he's home that often.

 

Why not try to unofficially teach them whenever they are over your house. I would hate to see a family torn apart.

 

Plus, there was a study done that kids are willing to teach themselves if left alone.

 

I just don't think calling CPS is the answer. There's got to be more going on that we don't know.

[beaners]

I can see why you are torn. From your point of view it does merit some kind of intervention - but the intervention available through CPS is often inappropriate for the situation. Is it better for the kids to stay where they are cared for if not educated when CPS might move them out of the home instead of helping the parents see that the kids need to be educated? Statistically a lot of bad things happen to kids due to CPS involvement, so I completely understand hesitation there. It's just not the right tool for the job, even if it seems to be the only legal one.

 

For the people who say older kids only knowing letters or not being able to read is acceptable because it happens at public school, do you understand what percentile that places kids in? What the equivalent IQ scores are for a child to not be capable of those things? How you are literally handicapping a student by not giving them a chance to learn basic literacy? I am aware of the literacy statistics throughout our country, but I also have children with *severe* delays who are able to learn these things with regular instruction. Not heroic interventions, just regular instruction. It is acceptable for a child with no or mild learning disabilities to never be instructed to the point that they are capable of reading less than my child with severe brain damage? No. It isn't.

 

This isn't a difference in philosophy because a family purposefully chooses to unschool. This isn't saying a family must prepare every child for an exclusive four year college. I'm saying a fifth grader should be given the opportunity to learn more than letters and sounds. You would need to be intentionally opposed to your child receiving an education to not be concerned about a fifth grader enrolled in a public school never learning more than the alphabet. We live in a poor rural district (different obstacles than an inner city location), and the school's typical scores aren't great. I have seen the fifth graders there though and they can read more than their letters.

 

Unless there is information that you haven't shared here because you don't know it, this isn't acceptable. Not acceptable. Period. I know people don't like to call it right out like that. I know as homeschoolers we like to look at things through our own lens where maybe we get busy for a few weeks and things get shuffled to the back burner, maybe we have a child that things don't click for quickly, etc. Those things could be possible in this case and the OP doesn't know it. As the problem is stated, to the OP's knowledge and not our speculation, this isn't an acceptable education for those children. Some kind of intervention is merited for children who are past elementary age and aren't being offered an education.

[swellmomma]

13 is old enough to babysit, dad is home during after work hours. I'm sure plenty of working parents leave school-age kids at home through daytime hours during school breaks if one is a teenager, this in itself isn't a huge red flag to me.

yup.  In fact I am one of those parents.  Guess what, I am headed out the door right now to work and leaving the kids home.  I did the same on Monday, Wednesday and Friday this week too.  

 

As for the OP I would be concerned too that the kids are otherwise well cared for and you don't want to cause trouble by calling the authorities and yet she admits she will not educate them.  It appears the kids are okay with that set up too, they are not taking strides to self educate, so she can't even try to claim unschooler though I suspect if you call the authorities taht is exactly what she will do and then your chances of helping the kids is gone.  

 

Is it within your means to help teach these kids yourself? Can you offer tutoring in the 3Rs a few hours a week to try and bring them up to at least a basic competency?

[AimeeM]

It's asking an awful lot of the OP to take on the education of these children, who are so very behind (I've seen it mentioned a few times, as an alternative to reporting educational neglect).

[xixstar]

What would I do? Very clearly state my concerns without mincing words and tell her that I could not be friends with someone if felt were neglecting their children. I would state what help I am willing to provide to help her get going (no, not me offering to teach) or state that wnrollong in school should be considered. And then I would stop socializing with them if nothing changes.

 

I would not take further action and wouldn't expect anyone else to because I feel like there is a large grey line where someone's observation and interpretation of another's life has great room for errors in situations like this.

[maize]

It's asking an awful lot of the OP to take on the education of these children, who are so very behind (I've seen it mentioned a few times, as an alternative to reporting educational neglect).

 

 

It is asking a lot, and may not be a possibility.

 

But the three options that seem to be available have been laid out: Do nothing, call the authorities, or personally intervene. 

 

Doing nothing allows the status quo to continue, and no concerns are resolved.

 

Calling the authorities has the potential to result in some good (parents are held accountable by an outside authority and begin to provide more education for their children, at home or school). It also unfortunately has the potential to result in very serious negative consequences, beginning with stress and insecurity for the children and ranging up to their removal from a family that by all appearances is secure and functional into a foster placement with nothing guaranteed. That is not something to be taken lightly, and unfortunately if OP were to call the sequence of events from that point would be beyond her control.

 

The third option is the only one by which she can confidently hope to make a positive difference in these children's lives.

 

I wish it wasn't that way, I wish I could feel confident that calling the authorities would result in more good than harm. It very well might--but the potential for harm would be enough to make me seriously hesitate in this situation. 

[AimeeM]

I have never heard of a government entity immediately removing children from a home for educational neglect. The first course of action has always been (even in countries like Germany where homeschooling is illegal) to first try to get the parent to cooperate - in this case, that could mean requiring the parent to formally educate their children at home, OR it could mean agreeing to enroll the children in a public or private school.

It is asking a lot, and may not be a possibility.

 

But the three options that seem to be available have been laid out: Do nothing, call the authorities, or personally intervene. 

 

Doing nothing allows the status quo to continue, and no concerns are resolved.

 

Calling the authorities has the potential to result in some good (parents are held accountable by an outside authority and begin to provide more education for their children, at home or school). It also unfortunately has the potential to result in very serious negative consequences, beginning with stress and insecurity for the children and ranging up to their removal from a family that by all appearances is secure and functional into a foster placement with nothing guaranteed. That is not something to be taken lightly, and unfortunately if OP were to call the sequence of events from that point would be beyond her control.

 

The third option is the only one by which she can confidently hope to make a positive difference in these children's lives.

 

I wish it wasn't that way, I wish I could feel confident that calling the authorities would result in more good than harm. It very well might--but the potential for harm would be enough to make me seriously hesitate in this situation. 

 

[maize]

You have to do something even just for your own sake. Here leaving a 13 year old in charge of a bunch of kids would be illegal (though it would be ok as soon as he turned 14) but from these boards it seems like many people babysit from about 12.

 

Is there a truant officer. They are usually good at talking to parents and here at least are more proactive and positive than many agencies.

 

In the US, 13 is generally considered an acceptable age for babysitting. Even when we lived on a military installation, where child supervision policies were generally more strict that in the outside community, 13 was old enough both to be left alone during the day and also to supervise younger siblings or non-siblings.

 

I would be more concerned if there were infants and toddlers in the house, but it sounds like the youngest child is 8. While I don't consider the situation ideal, it is within the bounds of acceptable childcare practices and not something I would feel a need to intervene over.

 

I too have wondered about truant officer/school official involvement; could be an option but I hear too many stories where CPS seems to be automatically called in as soon as any officials are involved, and this just doesn't seem like a situation that CPS would be likely to resolve in a positive manner. I am very wary of introducing what is likely at the very least to be a significant source of stress into this family's life--stress is not good for learning or for family relationships, stability and mental health. At the moment it appears we have a set of children who are under-educated but seemingly healthy and happy; I would not want to be the one to put in motion something that would leave them likely still under-educated and now traumatized and insecure. I would need to see more red flags that what has been described this far. As is, I would see what I could do through my own influence first.

 

OP, I'm glad to know you are there and are taking an interest in these kids' lives. I'm sorry there is not a clearer way to help.

[desertflower]

I have never heard of a government entity immediately removing children from a home for educational neglect. The first course of action has always been (even in countries like Germany where homeschooling is illegal) to first try to get the parent to cooperate - in this case, that could mean requiring the parent to formally educate their children at home, OR it could mean agreeing to enroll the children in a public or private school.

 

I'm not going to elaborate, but it is possible.

[maize]

I have never heard of a government entity immediately removing children from a home for educational neglect. The first course of action has always been (even in countries like Germany where homeschooling is illegal) to first try to get the parent to cooperate - in this case, that could mean requiring the parent to formally educate their children at home, OR it could mean agreeing to enroll the children in a public or private school.

 

I agree that the first course of action would likely not be removal of the children, but there can be significant trauma even without removal. The threat of removal which comes with CPS involvement is stressful and destabilizing both for parents and children, and it seems that CPS investigations not infrequently go beyond the initial concern with every aspect of a family's life being scrutinized. I don't think such outside stress is harmless, on the contrary I think it can be quite traumatizing--it is not good for children in a secure family environment to fear that their home may be broken up. And there is simply no guarantee that the situation for the children will improve. The family could go through the whole process and the parents make a case to show that they do indeed comply with the minimums of the  law, and nothing would change. In my state they could probably get away with that.

[desertflower]

I'm not going to elaborate, but it is possible.

I stand corrected. Not immediately. Just eventually.

[shinyhappypeople]

I agree that the first course of action would likely not be removal of the children, but there can be significant trauma even without removal. The threat of removal which comes with CPS involvement is stressful and destabilizing both for parents and children, and it seems that CPS investigations not infrequently go beyond the initial concern with every aspect of a family's life being scrutinized. I don't think such outside stress is harmless, on the contrary I think it can be quite traumatizing--it is not good for children in a secure family environment to fear that their home may be broken up. And there is simply no guarantee that the situation for the children will improve. The family could go through the whole process and the parents make a case to show that they do indeed comply with the minimums of the  law, and nothing would change. In my state they could probably get away with that.

 

I agree with this.  It's part of what makes me so upset about this scenario.  The parents seem to have no sense of the serious risk their children are in.  How can they not care that, in addition to serious problems as adults resulting from denial of education, their kids are at risk of foster care.  What kind of parent would understand that risk and continue on the same merry path?? 

 

The world is full of mandatory reporters who absolutely would call CPS immediately if they had an inkling what was happening.  If the children are put through the stress and insecurity of a CPS investigation it wouldn't the reporter's fault or the children's fault.  The blame would rest squarely on the shoulders of parents who can't be bothered to teach or enroll their kids in school (seriously, just pick one!).  We seem to be giving the dad a pass to a certain degree, because he works.  However, in this situation, there's a lot that he could be - and should be - doing to help his children.

 

OP - do you know the reasons why this family is pretending to homeschool versus sending them to public school?  I just can't wrap my brain around this.