Math help--Miquon, 2nd grader, and zoning out/resistance/etc. Parents of older children, please chime in with your wisdom!

[pehp]

I would love some feedback and I'm not even sure how to frame my problem.  My son and I are working through Miquon's red book.  We started back at math after the summer break (did some Khan then, but not much) and this is our third week. I do not feel it is going well!

 

Math is a source of great frustration for both of us.  We do just fine with reading, spelling, grammar, literature/narration, etc.  JUST FINE!  But somehow math is a huge struggle on an almost-daily basis and I am starting to feel dread.  

 

As soon as the math book is pulled out--or very soon after--my son turns something in his brain off.  He is easily distracted, unfocused and seems confused by the simplest things ("what is 9-2?"  Him: staring at all, rubbing eyes, "I don't know." He DOES know, but he somehow seems unable or unwilling--I can't decide which--to put forth the mental effort to think much about each problem.)  He seems "checked out" of math, which makes me feel slightly panicked, though i'm keeping my cool.  He's 7! I don't want him checked out of math just yet. 

 

Plus, I feel like a flop.  Miquon is supposed to guide us through the process of finding math enchanting and intriguing, and yet most of the time math for us is like pulling teeth.  There is nothing joyful about it and definitely nothing "fun." I can't make a hands-on, engaging math program "fun"--so I feel like a total failure on the math-front.  My son could not care less if we did math.  Now, he couldn't care less if we stopped spelling or narrations either, but he's at least focused, pleasant, and willing to do the work.  

 

We stopped after half of a page of Miquon today (getting an entire page done is a miracle.  Half a page is all we seem to handle at this point, and by the second or third problem most days--not all days--I am already feeling the creeping annoyance as I realize my son is, yet again, checking out).  I read a chapter of LIfe of Fred--he loves Fred. 

 

He needs more drill and so we are starting some calculadders. He seems to do fine w/ those so far (simple addition).  

 

Does anyone have any insights?  Our homeschool day runs very smoothly and pleasantly except for the math madness.  Math makes me look again at the cost of our local private school....which is nuts because the rest of h'schooling is such a joy!  I know sometimes we have to power through, but having one subject--one essential subject--as the source of negative feelings is really starting to bother me on a fundamental level!

 

Thanks in advance!

[Susan in TX]

Why not drop Miquon and just do Life of Fred and the calculadder drills? Seems to me that would be enough at this point. You could also try to find some fun math games. You may also want to try a different curriculum. My math disliking child did well with Developmental Mathematics.

 

Susan in TX

[...................]

I wouldn't even do LIfe of Fred.  Maybe he's just a very sequential learner, and the type of person that prefers to know exactly what is expected and what is coming next.  Miquon is for kids who really like change, something new, and who love to explore and find anything- math or otherwise, is about the process, and not the product.  As a child, I would have completely melted down doing something like Miquon. I am all about the product (the Competent Carl personality, a Beaver, etc.) 

 

So, really, I don't even think LIfe of Fred is likely to be a hit with a kid like that.  (Assuming that is the case, which is, of course, something of a guess.)...

 

I would move on to something that is workbook based, clear directions, a specific amount to do every day, and not too intense. Probably Horizons first grade, Book 2.  You'll have to give the placement test.  Saxon is good too, but Horizons is better so I don't really recommend Saxon anymore.  But, my son did have a lot of success with Saxon up until about 6th grade.

 

  

[...................]

Yeah, I was going to say, if you think he struggles with new concepts and really has a fear of math at this point, then Developmental Math is super gentle and will built his confidence like nothing else.  Also, it's very affordable!  

[blondeviolin]

My oldest melted down like this. She needs math that is very procedurally driven. Then, after te fact, she can look back and understand the concepts. She could do the conceptually driven programs, but it was a big stretch and very frustrating for her. She is loving Teaching Textbooks, which feels like a step down compared to Singapore and Beast Academy. But as long as she's confident, then I don't feel like it is. So she does TT and BA on Fridays.

 

I'd probably look into CLE or Saxon. Something with a bit more traditional scope and sequence.

[Farrar]

I adore Miquon. But if it's not working for you guys, drop it! It wasn't right for my kid who needed slow and steady and sequential. It was right for my kid who needed to jump around and think whole to parts.

[pehp]

All the feedback so far has resulted in one strong feeling from me (which I did not expect): RELIEF. 

 

Wow.  It is a relief to hear that perhaps it's just not a good fit.  

 

I do think he's a sequential learner.  He LOVES to know what is next. He LOVES to feel like he has 'mastered' a concept; he wants to feel like he's achieved something and then be able to tackle a new concept.  I love miquon but it's really not like that (at least not the way I'm using it--maybe you can use it that way...somehow??).  When I took the cathy duffy what-is-your-child's-style quiz, I felt like he was mostly Competent Carl (with a little Perfect Paula--definitely perfectionistic--and a tiny wiggly willy, but only b/c he's very visual--thrown in).  He likes the calculadders drills.  They are straightforward. He is very slow, steady, and sequential. 

 

He does love LOF b/c he thinks it is hilarious.  I am neutral on Fred at best, but b/c he likes it, I'm willing to go with that.  

 

I will check out Horizons and Developmental Mathematics.  I have heard about Saxon and Horizons, but never looked at their stuff, and I have never heard of Developmental Mathematics. (I've also heard of TT and CLE so I may look into those as well!) 

 

So-singapore would be a frustrating fit as well, then?

 

I feel a lot of relief.  I'm going to enlist my husband to look at Miquon this weekend and give me his thoughts.  He's an engineer and adores math (doing calculus for fun--I don't get it!).  I will try to look at a few other programs as well to show him before we meet. He is a creative thinker, whereas I'm more sequential (which is funny b/c he's an engineer and I'm a poet/attorney), but nevertheless, he's mathy, understands our son, and might provide some good insights.  

 

I have been beating myself up for a while with frustration that Miquon is not our 'happy place.'  I loved it at first (my son has always been neutral--kind of "what's the point?"), but the more we've gotten into it the more we seem to struggle. 

 

I wouldn't even do LIfe of Fred.  Maybe he's just a very sequential learner, and the type of person that prefers to know exactly what is expected and what is coming next.  Miquon is for kids who really like change, something new, and who love to explore and find anything- math or otherwise, is about the process, and not the product.  As a child, I would have completely melted down doing something like Miquon. I am all about the product (the Competent Carl personality, a Beaver, etc.) 

 

So, really, I don't even think LIfe of Fred is likely to be a hit with a kid like that.  (Assuming that is the case, which is, of course, something of a guess.)...

 

I would move on to something that is workbook based, clear directions, a specific amount to do every day, and not too intense. Probably Horizons first grade, Book 2.  You'll have to give the placement test.  Saxon is good too, but Horizons is better so I don't really recommend Saxon anymore.  But, my son did have a lot of success with Saxon up until about 6th grade.

 

[pehp]

Also--I have been using Miquon as just working through each book, exactly the way it is written.  Would it solve any problems to get the entire set and just do section "A" pages first, then "B" etc? I am open to this option.  But I don't want to belabor it if it's just a lost cause. 

[pehp]

Farrar-what did you use with your more "sequential" child--any favorites to recommend?

[pitterpatter]

Not particularly helpful, but DD is the same way. She's seven too. I think math just isn't her thing. She LOVES every other subject. Well, spelling is half-and-half. It's not that she has problems with the concepts really, but she finds math boring. She instantly checks out and loses focus. She has no problems focusing on the subjects before and after math. We use Singapore and Miquon right now. She likes when we start something new or different...like money, time, weights, measurements, but after a few days of the new subject, she usually starts checking out again. Miquon she likes when it's fun, but also bores of it when it hits page after page of straight math problems.

[Farrar]

Farrar-what did you use with your more "sequential" child--any favorites to recommend?

 

He used Math Mammoth. In kindy, we played with the rods and did living books. In first, I started both my boys with MEP, which was the program I loved. They both hated it. So we tried MM. One did fine and found it easy and useful - my more step by step kid. So then I had to find yet another program to try with my other boy and that ended up being Miquon.

 

My more sequential liking son is now using Math in Focus, which he chose after he decided he wasn't really like MM anymore after we finished MM4. 

 

I would look at Singapore if I were you. Both Singapore and Miquon are very conceptual, but otherwise they're very different. Singapore is much more step by step. Math Mammoth even more so - lots of problems, lots of in between steps, so to speak, to scaffold for understanding. But look at CLE and Horizons and so forth as well. I don't know those programs so I can't speak to them really. Teaching Textbooks, which you mentioned, is probably too high a level for now (I think it still starts at 3rd grade).

[blondeviolin]

Teaching Textbooks begins in 3rd grade. IMO, it is behind so it wouldn't hurt to have your son take the placement. If it were me, I'd look into Math in Focus instead of Singapore. It's more procedurally based.

[Gentlemommy]

I adore Miquon. But if it's not working for you guys, drop it! It wasn't right for my kid who needed slow and steady and sequential. It was right for my kid who needed to jump around and think whole to parts.

This exactly. We are a Miquon loving family, but (like everything) it's not for every kid OR parent. I'm not a fun kind of homeschooling parent, I'm a 'git 'er done' mama. My kids love some subjects and dislike others. For the ones they dislike, we just do them in the most efficient way possible.

[...................]

I think you should look closely at Math in Focus, too. Math in Focus is interesting because it really has a strong conceptual base...yet there is a particular expectation each day of a particular amount of work, that your child can clearly see, laid out, on a page.  So, I don't see why a Competent Carl would dislike it.  But, as a Competent Carl myself, I would have to remind you that I dislike problem-solving.  Period.  I get very anxious, wondering if I can solve the problem.  Since Singapore/Math in Focus is more conceptual, you will have to take more time looking at more challenging problems much earlier on, before the Logic Stage and the maturity of working through things has kicked in for some kids.  But, if you can hack it, I think it's pretty amazing what these kids learn and understand from an early age.  

 

My top choices for you to look at would be:

 

1.  Horizons

2.  Math in Focus

3.  CLE (if he likes plain black and white pages, instead of color.)

[kbutton]

If (and this is a no-guilt, ignore it if you like, if), you already have Miquon and want your son to still have some of the "Miquon experience," you could carefully select pages that you think have potential, and you could use them as a review of sorts or a look back at a topic he's mastered first in whatever curriculum you end up using. You might also like some of the games and concept at Education Unboxed (free videos). You could introduce the ones you think would be a good fit at any stage for review or supplemental practice.

 

I hope you find something you both love or that your husband will find the magic key to make it work for both of you. Math anxiety is not fun! 

- 

[Coco_Clark]

Another Math in Focus vote. You'll notice in my sig that I've got one in a Miquon and one in MIF. My discovery kid adores Miquon. He makes his own sheets all day long. But he also adores puzzles, riddles, and all things that require "figuring out".

My older give-it-to-me-straight kid couldn't stand it. We tried a bit of red for "fun summer math" and lasted about 10 pages. It was torture. I won't say he LOVES MIF, but he does it without complaining. He also did well with PM last year, I just didn't like all the books.

[pehp]

Definitely! I still plan to supplement with Miquon if we go with another program. I really do love it and he really does seem to 'get' the concepts--in spite of his utter resistance.  

 

We have used the Education Unboxed videos in the past! I love them.  My son is neutral, but I haven't shown him any for at least 6 moths.  He might be more into them now!

 

If (and this is a no-guilt, ignore it if you like, if), you already have Miquon and want your son to still have some of the "Miquon experience," you could carefully select pages that you think have potential, and you could use them as a review of sorts or a look back at a topic he's mastered first in whatever curriculum you end up using. You might also like some of the games and concept at Education Unboxed (free videos). You could introduce the ones you think would be a good fit at any stage for review or supplemental practice.

 

I hope you find something you both love or that your husband will find the magic key to make it work for both of you. Math anxiety is not fun! 

- 

 

[pehp]

Thanks again for all the help. I am currently making a list of different choices and pros/cons and links to websites--to send to my husband for his review tomorrow at work (he gets up waaay before I do)--so that he can be informed and prepared b/c we are going to discuss all this over the weekend!  I am hopeful that he'll be helpful with the choices and input.  He's never laid eyes on our math program and leaves all decision-making up to me....I love the freedom, but it will be nice to get some input on this particular subject--since he's a math nerd.  ;)

[Snow]

Can you keep us posted pehp? I'm following because my ds has a similar reaction to miquon and Singapore pm and I've often thought maybe we should ditch to mif, mm or cle.

 

Good luck!

[MamaTX5]

Just a quick note to say that my 'Competent Carl' loves CLE Math! :-) We tried Singapore, Saxon, Math Mammoth, Math U See, and Horizons; CLE is his favorite and he only one he doesn't hate! He loves the checklist at the beginning of each lesson that he can check off, that there is just a little new information in each lesson so he doesn't get bored and feels like he is learning something new without getting overwhelmed, and that there is review in each lesson so he retains it better. He also doesn't complain about the length and knows what to expect every single time. He does LOF every once in awhile because he thinks it is funny and that reading it is fun, but not enough to consider it his main curriculum.

[pehp]

MamaD4, thanks for that advice!  CLE is the one that I'm leaning towards after spending 3 hours in the past 24 hours researching all this math bizness.  I am done--enough is enough! I will see what my husband says.  But CLE appeals to me personally--and I'm Carl-like for sure--so I keep coming back to it as a potentially good fit.  CLE with supplemental LOF (my son loves Fred) and selected pages from Miquon (very 'lite') might be a nice setup for him.  

 

I find my child very intriguing, to be honest.  He surprises me all the time.  He's an artist, and appears to have some talent. I would think a child who is that artistic would enjoy an exploratory program like Miquon.  So I feel surprised that he's NOT interested in it at all...but he's also very methodical. He will work for hours on an art project--very patient with it; he's also very analytical and constantly analyzes how things work, etc.  (My husband is a mechanical engineer.)  And a touch of ASD means that he does enjoy--although doesn't need it like some children do--knowing what's expected and what's next.  Miquon feels loosey-goosey to him, I think.  

 

Motherhood has been a real adventure for me in unpeeling the layers of who I think my child might be and discovering who my child really is.  it's totally fascinating!!!!

[pehp]

Oh--does anyone have feedback on Right Start? My best homeschooling buddy here uses it for her daughter and they L.O.V.E. it (although engineer-daddy teaches the lessons).  I haven't looked into it extensively...I'm too tired!  If anyone has an off-the-cuff review, I'd love to hear it.  

[blue plaid]

I love Rightstart B, and used it with my 2 older kids and have been using it with my first grader in combination with MIF (I haven't used level C or beyond.). It is another manifestation of Asian math. BUT, the description of your 7 year old sounds like my first grader lately when I've pulled out Rightstart. He is focusing much better with Math in Focus, and with us sitting at a table with the books in front of us instead of the more oral Rightstart approach. I plan to try it again with him at some point though because I do think it is a great program.

[kbernt]

I'm a little slow here, but just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

 

 

... I can't make a hands-on, engaging math program "fun"--so I feel like a total failure on the math-front. 

 

Hands-on isn't for everyone, some kids grasp the abstract just fine without the concrete.

 

 

...("what is 9-2?"  Him: staring at all, rubbing eyes, "I don't know." He DOES know, but he somehow seems unable or unwilling

 

It seems like I read somewhere not to quiz, or not to ask what is 9-2, as it puts pressure on them to formulate the right answer, and some kids REALLY don’t like the risk of being wrong. It works better to let them recognize, find, or search for the right answer among a few options. This can build confidence, then later the “drill†can be presented. 

 

 

You'll get it figured out!

[Guest jonioesque]

She is loving Teaching Textbooks, which feels like a step down compared to Singapore and Beast Academy. 

[kbutton]

MamaD4, thanks for that advice!  CLE is the one that I'm leaning towards after spending 3 hours in the past 24 hours researching all this math bizness.  I am done--enough is enough! I will see what my husband says.  But CLE appeals to me personally--and I'm Carl-like for sure--so I keep coming back to it as a potentially good fit.  CLE with supplemental LOF (my son loves Fred) and selected pages from Miquon (very 'lite') might be a nice setup for him.  

 

I find my child very intriguing, to be honest.  He surprises me all the time.  He's an artist, and appears to have some talent. I would think a child who is that artistic would enjoy an exploratory program like Miquon.  So I feel surprised that he's NOT interested in it at all...but he's also very methodical. He will work for hours on an art project--very patient with it; he's also very analytical and constantly analyzes how things work, etc.  (My husband is a mechanical engineer.)  And a touch of ASD means that he does enjoy--although doesn't need it like some children do--knowing what's expected and what's next.  Miquon feels loosey-goosey to him, I think.  

 

Motherhood has been a real adventure for me in unpeeling the layers of who I think my child might be and discovering who my child really is.  it's totally fascinating!!!!

 

I didn't know your kiddo has ASD when I responded. My older child has ASD, and he likes taking a peek at Miquon from time to time while my younger son is doing it. I think he'd enjoy the activities and what they teach now that he is beyond learning those concepts for the first time. We sometimes use concepts from Miquon or Education Unboxed to demonstrate more ways to do something or show flexible thinking. He would have liked some of Miquon and tolerated the rest, but that's probably only because he had enough Montessori preschool to know that discovery is okay. He's a Competent Carl for sure. I'm basically just rambling, but wanted you to know that you are not alone in finding these kids contradictory. :-) Things that seem alike to me are sometimes very different on that one tiny point that matters the most to him! 

[Mommy22alyns]

I wouldn't even do LIfe of Fred.  Maybe he's just a very sequential learner, and the type of person that prefers to know exactly what is expected and what is coming next.  Miquon is for kids who really like change, something new, and who love to explore and find anything- math or otherwise, is about the process, and not the product.  As a child, I would have completely melted down doing something like Miquon. I am all about the product (the Competent Carl personality, a Beaver, etc.) 

 

So, really, I don't even think LIfe of Fred is likely to be a hit with a kid like that.  (Assuming that is the case, which is, of course, something of a guess.)...

 

I would move on to something that is workbook based, clear directions, a specific amount to do every day, and not too intense. Probably Horizons first grade, Book 2.  You'll have to give the placement test.  Saxon is good too, but Horizons is better so I don't really recommend Saxon anymore.  But, my son did have a lot of success with Saxon up until about 6th grade.

 

I agree. Not all kids want the "discovery" approach.  Miquon was a mess here and I ditched it quickly.  We tried several other programs before settling on CLE.  The girls thrive with it.

[pehp]

I didn't know your kiddo has ASD when I responded. My older child has ASD, and he likes taking a peek at Miquon from time to time while my younger son is doing it. I think he'd enjoy the activities and what they teach now that he is beyond learning those concepts for the first time. We sometimes use concepts from Miquon or Education Unboxed to demonstrate more ways to do something or show flexible thinking. He would have liked some of Miquon and tolerated the rest, but that's probably only because he had enough Montessori preschool to know that discovery is okay. He's a Competent Carl for sure. I'm basically just rambling, but wanted you to know that you are not alone in finding these kids contradictory. :-) Things that seem alike to me are sometimes very different on that one tiny point that matters the most to him! 

 

Yes--I keep thinking "this program would be so cool for him to play with once he's more confident in his skills." I think he'd like it--the game-like part of it.  

 

Today I did an experiment. I wanted to be sure that the problem is our approach to math, NOT the beautiful 3 year distraction. So I put my daughter in front of  a video for 30 minutes and my son and I sequestered ourselves at the desk for focused math time.  Sure enough, he was fine the first few problems and then the frustration, confusion, difficulty focusing, etc began.  So I think I've safely determined that the issue is not his cute little sibling who does her 'preschool' nearby.  She was in another room and he had the same issue.

 

Thanks for all the advice! I will keep everyone posted on what we choose and how it goes.  

[pehp]

We had our talk tonight! my husband is so helpful.  He's a little ASD-y and an engineer (he once told me that he uses the pythagorean theorem on at least a weekly basis; I paused and said "wow. we live in totally different worlds.") so he 'gets' our son pretty well!  He looked carefully at the Miquon lab sheets and we discussed the specific issues our son is having (right down to me showing specific problems/equations that we've done recently and exactly what in each situation gave our child trouble!). 

 

The end result is that my husband thinks the first thing to do is to get his math facts down pat.  Our son totally understands the concepts behind addition and subtraction, but he doesn't have the math facts memorized--other than a few random ones that he has internalized.  My husband pointed out that when faced with one of the Miquon equations such as 8-2= X +3, it's annoying if you have to go step by step just to "figure out" what 8-2 is (my son uses the rods in these situations).  

 

His words were "don't worry about getting behind" (I had never said anything about this, but I appreciated the reassurance!).  And "don't overwhelm him" and "keep it basic."  He pointed out that our son loves to feel like he has things perfect--he loves to feel confident and like he 'knows it'.  And he doesn't feel that way when he's struggling to think of what 9-6 might be.  He just needs fast recall!

 

So I am going to focus more on the calculadders sheets, reading Life of Fred (simply b/c our son dearly loves them--they are 'fun' and not 'school' for him) and drilling flash cards (the kind of thing our son enjoys--he likes the challenge of memory work). My husband wants him to get proficient at the math facts addition up to 9+9, and then start in on some subtraction math facts, and we'll ease back into some Miquon sheets (that I hand-pick!).  If all of this doesn't seem to help, we'll reevaluate in a few months and look at another program--my husband seemed to like CLE best of all the ones I'd sent to him. It all makes sense to my own competent carl side, so we'll see how it goes! I will update in a month or two. :)

[pehp]

Here is my update to this thread, a few months after I initially posted of our math woes.  I would up purchasing Rod and Staff over our Christmas break (I think it is really similar to CLE; I think I chose R&S b/c I was perusing the Memoria Press catalog in the car on our way to South Carolina, and that's what they use/recommend, so I went for it).  

 

So far, so good.  My son responded to this new program beautifully and enthusiastically.  He is building back the confidence that he seemed to lose when using Miquon.  I really think I've got a child on my hands who appreciates learning things sequentially, not jumping around from concept to concept.  And although I love Miquon for myself (I would like to do the lab sheets!! for fun!!), I had a really hard time teaching it.  I think he's healing from his math frustrations and I am healing from mine as well--and from the bad feelings associated with berating myself for not making it work.  

 

I will update again after we have used the program for a longer period of time--maybe 6+ months. 

 

THANKS!