Probable 2e, large spread on WISC, very low coding score, NVLD?

[Runningmom80]

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[wapiti]

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Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[Runningmom80]

The tester we used is from the local gifted charter's website. :)

 

She wasn't concerned about the coding, she said he was going slow to make his lines perfect and felt it was a perfectionist thing.

 

3 is very low, I think someone said 1%. That's crazy to me.

[PeterPan]

Have you had an OT eval yet?  NVLD has as a distinguishing characteristic (from what I've been told) finger agnosia.  You mentioned fine motor and coordination issues.  Find a really good OT, get that eval, and see if they have a neuropsych they tend to like.  These people will know each other and inter-refer.  You can probably get into the OT sooner than you can the np.

 

I don't know, I'm sort of worn out on the whole Hoagies list, gotta have a psych who knows gifted.  His scores are not THAT high, sorry, and they've been confirmed by three sources.  At this point you're wanting to know what's going on besides that.  I suggest you just look for the best neuropsych within a 2-3 hour drive and use them.  A dc with NVLD is kissing the spectrum (or on the spectrum, depending on your perspective), so personally I'd suggest looking for the neuropsych that is popular in your area for ASD.  If he's an extrovert, the social issues can look very different from an introvert, meaning some people miss them or attribute them to something else.

 

I wasn't impressed with any of the neuropsychs from the Hoagie's list in our state.  At this point it's more important to me to have a np that spends enough time, digs enough, and is known for thinking and not giving simplistic answers.  

 

On the OT and VT question, in your situation I might try to get the OT eval first.  Take your time finding a good VT doc (look on COVD.org), get just that annual visit with that doc and ask him to *screen* for the developmental stuff, and while you're doing that get the OT eval.  If you can get a really good OT eval (one hour is short, there are longer), they'll dig in on motor planning, finger agnosia, retained primitive reflexes, etc.  With what you described, you could have any number of things ranging from very mild to more severe.  Some of those things will affect how well the VT works (if he needs it).  So I'm all in favor of getting his eyes checked, but before doing actual therapy (if any is indicated) I'd get that OT eval and know the fuller picture of what you've got going on.  Nuts, sometimes what's coming across as ADHD symptoms will actually be retained primitive reflexes or developmental vision problems.  Seriously.  Like my dd is diagnosed, has her label, and her attention improves RADICALLY when she wears her bifocal contacts.  She's 15 with bifocals, and the difference is so dramatic, I wonder now if she'd still fail the TOVA with them.  ;)

 

It's probably not just one thing.  Have fun sorting through it.  Evals are this horrible process, because you come on asking about one and we say no, go for three.  But you know, after you tear him all up and dissect him and get these numbers and wonder WHAT HAVE I DONE TO MY BEAUTIFUL, FUNCTIONAL CHILD!! then you settle down, put it back together, and it all starts to make sense.  So go for more evals, not less.  Even the few things you've said here are enough to warrant an OT eval at that age.  It may turn up more than you expect, and certainly if there's NVLD going on you have to have one.  So you might as well get that and you might as well get his eyes screened.  Just take your time to get good practitioners for those.  

[Runningmom80]

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Edited June 18, 2016 by someonestolemyname

[PeterPan]

Oh no, it wasn't braggy!  I'm just saying I did the same thing, thinking an 2E psych would give me better feedback, and now I realize I just need the BEST neuropsych.  :)

 

Wow, if he hated the OT, definitely find someone else, mercy.  You could look for SIPT-certified.  http://www.wpspublish.com/store/Training/TherapistIndex   The one we used with dd wasn't SIPT-certified but did a similar style, long eval (5 hours, multiple days).  We learned a ton through that process.  A lot of times an OT will do a one hour quickee eval and then run more tests during therapy.  It's just what your insurance covers and how the OT handles it.  It's stuff you can ask.  We definitely learned more in our 5 hour eval than people I've talked with who got 1 hour evals.

[Runningmom80]

We definitely need a better psych. This one, we just used for testing, and coincidentally, we weren't even planning the iq test, we just wanted the WJ-III to send to the school district. He scored a 146 for total achievement, and for some reason I thought iq scores were usually higher than achievement, so we did the iq test to see how it would shake out. So we basically only have a testing relationship with her, and it's luke warm at best.

 

 

We only got the one hour eval with OT.

 

I think we really need a full neuropsych eval. I will just bring these tests we already have and go from there.

[Mukmuk]

Looking at your son's scores, I'd say definitely check with a COVD. Both symbol search and coding are vision and fine motor skills dependent. Any blocks here may reflect vision/handwriting issues rather than a slow processing speed.

 

Despite what I said above, if he seems ADD-ish, some of his low processing speed scores could be a genuine reflection. Slow processors can be deep thinkers- they just find it hard to shake-off thoughts that just keep connecting with new ideas.

 

His working memory is looking good - it's roughly 1sd from the VCI. From what I gather, that's fairly good working memory support for his CPU.

 

Does he present with any issues you're concerned with?

 

My ds has a scatter of 70points between VCI/PRI and working memory, and 60 points with psi. In his case, his weak psi scores is definitely the result of vision issues and dysgraphia. But part of it is also the fact that his thoughts are never ending. When ds is interested in something, he thinks about it nonstop. This is a double edged sword!

[Runningmom80]

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Edited June 18, 2016 by someonestolemyname

[kbutton]

There is a lot of variation in the gifted population, and lots of us have 2e kids here. You didn't come across as bragging, but I do think that because you are on the "lower" end of the gifted range (we are too), you probably do have more leeway in who you see as a psych. But he's "gifted enough" (for lack of a better term) for you to see the intensities and other characteristics, and those should be taken into consideration. You may consult with a general psych for the exceptionalities, and if you want more guidance, see a 2e or gifted psych for the parenting, intensities, etc. if you feel you need to. I hope that makes sense. No matter what you choose to do, personal fit is a big piece of the puzzle, and having a psych that will be up front about their abilities and strengths is also good.

 

I would pose the question of NVLD to whomever you see for a psych follow up (if you want to follow up and not just do OT, COVD, etc.). He may have patterns in his WJ scores that point to it, but it sounds like his achievement scores are wonderful. That suggests to me that his perfectionism, playfulness during testing, and overall low processing (whatever the cause) are suppressing his IQ scores, and that the GAI is probably closer to his real score. If NVLD is really there, his gifts may be allowing him to cover for it now. We got an ASD diagnosis at 9--it took that long to look like something else because he could hold his own intellectually to blend in for a long time. I've heard NVLD can be similar, depending on the individual profile.

 

It's hard to find a sweet spot. If you want some help finding the sweet spot, I'm sure others would chime in with suggestions on a different thread. It may be the exceptionalities that are making that spot hard to find. 

 

Make yourself at home here. :-)

[Runningmom80]

Thank you. 

 

His fluency scores were indeed his lowest, but no where near as low as that coding/processing score.

 

I don't know if anything jumps out, yes the fluency seems to be a problem!

 

Broad Reading 144 (99)

Letter-word 138 (99.5)

reading fluency 142 (99.7)

passage comprehension 125 (95)

 

Broad Mathematics 135 (99)

calculation 138 (99.5)

math fluency 107 (68)

applied problems 128 (97)

 

Broad written language 140 (99.6)

spelling 157 (>99.9)

writing fluency 100 (51)

writing samples 119 (90)

 

academic skills 152 (99.9)

letter word id 138 (99.5)

spelling 157 (99.9)

calculation 138 (99.5)

 

oral language 116 (86)

story recall 117 (87)

understanding directions 114 (83)

 

total achievement 146 (99.9)

[Mukmuk]

He does have problems focusing, but I can never get to the sweet spot between boredom and the work being too hard.

This is a tough one. I can see you have some issues here though. Your son has weaker math and writing fluency scores (although reading fluency is fine). Math fluency scores are typically related to working memory or lack of automaticity. Yet his WM on the wisc is good. You may want to address this with your next NP. Writing fluency could be another reflection of his weak fine motor coordination.

 

You mentioned NVLD but also say that he doesn't have the social issues except for low tone, poor coordination. Like Wapiti mentioned, low tone and poor coordination is the hallmark of many LDs and no LDs. You may want to look at it separately. My advice is, analyse your child, not the report. Reports can point to a pattern that may or may not exist. Your guy sounds like a perfectionist who is in control of his actions (that statement about blocks). And his achievement score is great, so he doesn't sound like he has learning issues overall.

 

I hope I don't sound dismissive. Secondary interpretations (as opposed to primary interpretations which are indicated directly by, say, low VCI) are notoriously difficult either way. Based on the wisc, my ds looks like he's NVLD and not dyslexic. He is the reverse in both categories. Listen to your mom gut :).

[Runningmom80]

Thank you Mukmuk. That is what I'm struggling with, his achievement doesn't seem to be majorly affected. I don't want to take him for one low score. (I do realize it is crazy low!) I can't help but wonder if maybe he was just off that day. I really expected a higher VCI, not that his was low, but that's his strength. I don't want to make excuses or anything, it just seems "off" from what I've seen of him developmentally. I am looking through my mom goggles however! :)

 

DH looked up NPs in the area, we are going to sit down tonight and make a list of everything we're concerned about, and go from there.

 

I appreciate everyone's help. Truly.

[Mukmuk]

I see what you're saying, Runningmom. Good luck on getting more info. It's so hard when you know the report isn't reflective of your son's abilities. Good on you that you're not stopping!

[Runningmom80]

Thanks Mukmuk! It's just not adding up. Either he was off, or I'm missing something. Either way, we'll get it figured out. I don't want to keep retesting his iq, I'd rather just do the appropriate testing to figure out if there is an LD being masked by his giftedness.

 

I've been reading about GAI, and it appears that it's supposed to be more accurate than full scale when there are large discrepensies in the cluster scores. That's reassuring because as far as his development goes, he's never seemed "low end of gifted."

[PeterPan]

Find your really good neuropsych and just talk it through with them.  I'm sure this is a situation they get a lot, expanding on a shorter eval by another psych.  There's a ton more testing a really good neuropsych can do, allowing them to take the things suggested by the WISC and confirm it and sift it out four ways.  I was really surprised how many ways our np tested something as simple as working memory, but each way revealed something more about it (how effortful it was, etc. etc.).  

 

I think any time you think the explanation is incomplete, you should get further evals from someone who will spend more time and do more testing.  Mama Gut is seriously accurate.  

 

Just out of curiosity, when you say he's never seemed "low end of gifted," what kinds of things are you seeing?  Are they across the board and even or unusual (highly unusual) strengths in niched areas?  

[Runningmom80]

Find your really good neuropsych and just talk it through with them. I'm sure this is a situation they get a lot, expanding on a shorter eval by another psych. There's a ton more testing a really good neuropsych can do, allowing them to take the things suggested by the WISC and confirm it and sift it out four ways. I was really surprised how many ways our np tested something as simple as working memory, but each way revealed something more about it (how effortful it was, etc. etc.).

 

I think any time you think the explanation is incomplete, you should get further evals from someone who will spend more time and do more testing. Mama Gut is seriously accurate.

 

Just out of curiosity, when you say he's never seemed "low end of gifted," what kinds of things are you seeing? Are they across the board and even or unusual (highly unusual) strengths in niched areas?

He seems across the board gifted, but his real strengths are verbal/reading and I guess I would call it reasoning? (It's hard to explain!) He read early, he was sight reading by 2, sounding anything out phonetically by 3. He mainly taught himself by just remembering what words looked like. He would point to words all day and ask me what they said and then he would start telling me what words were. Also, his memory is really strong, and he's just able to figure things out that seem way above his level, of course I'm drawing a blank right now on specific examples! His scores at 4, and 4.5, although the full scale IQ's were the same as his GAI, he had more high scores in the scatter. (He ceilinged the fluid reasoning on the SB-V) I know early IQ test are not seen as accurate, or can be superficially inflated due to enriched environment, but they seemed to match what we were seeing. This time it was like, "huh?"

 

He's not mathy, and not overly accelerated in that area. We are only beginning 3B in Singapore. (he's 7.5, age grade 2nd) So he's not like a lot of the kids on the accelerated board working on algebra in 1st grade. ;) He actually hates math, which is one thing that stands out with the NVLD. He has trouble with math facts for sure, but admittedly, I've not pushed it. I decided to take some time off and work on times tables to see if I can sense if he's just not interested, or if he's really having difficulty.

 

He's also musically gifted, he has been able to play things by ear on his keyboard or bass for a couple of years. I'm trying to research if this fits into any learning profiles, it's definitely a big part of who he is.

 

I know he's not off the charts, going to college at 12 kind of kid, I'm sorry if I've come across that way. I just don't see him as moderately gifted, or whatever that full scale IQ classifies him as. I have 4 year old twins, who seem moderately gifted, and he's SO different from them. Good, and bad! :laugh: They seem like the kids who can go to school, do the gifted pull out, and get straight A's and be happy. He would wilt in that environment.

 

After talking it over with DH last night, I'm really wondering about ADD. If I had to guess, in my very non professional opinion, I'd say it's that. I don't think it explains that coding score, but I also don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that that score isn't the end all be all of what's going on.

 

We are going to call a few NP today and see what we can figure out.

[wapiti]

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Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[kbutton]

Yeah, that doesn't sound like the lower end of gifted! If there is something going on under the hood that needs to be remediated or identified, I hope you find it. He sounds like a very interesting kid.

 

My son became significantly more engaged in math when we reached Singapore 4A (US Edition). We started using the IP, and he really gained some serious math confidence with the IP. He had bogged down in 3B with fractions (and maybe long division), and a summer off made a huge difference. He came back to the concepts as if he'd never struggled (though he's still slow with fluency, etc.). We also started factoring during 3B to help with math fluency, and that turned out to be the next topic in 4A. He is on level with math, but I think it's confidence and fluency that hold him back (a hallmark of his exceptionalities). Good luck with your break--sometimes breaks are a big help. 

[Heathermomster]

He seems across the board gifted, but his real strengths are verbal/reading and I guess I would call it reasoning? (It's hard to explain!) He read early, he was sight reading by 2, sounding anything out phonetically by 3. He mainly taught himself by just remembering what words looked like. He would point to words all day and ask me what they said and then he would start telling me what words were. Also, his memory is really strong, and he's just able to figure things out that seem way above his level, of course I'm drawing a blank right now on specific examples! His scores at 4, and 4.5, although the full scale IQ's were the same as his GAI, he had more high scores in the scatter. (He ceilinged the fluid reasoning on the SB-V) I know early IQ test are not seen as accurate, or can be superficially inflated due to enriched environment, but they seemed to match what we were seeing. This time it was like, "huh?"

 

He's not mathy, and not overly accelerated in that area. We are only beginning 3B in Singapore. (he's 7.5, age grade 2nd) So he's not like a lot of the kids on the accelerated board working on algebra in 1st grade. ;) He actually hates math, which is one thing that stands out with the NVLD. He has trouble with math facts for sure, but admittedly, I've not pushed it. I decided to take some time off and work on times tables to see if I can sense if he's just not interested, or if he's really having difficulty.

 

He's also musically gifted, he has been able to play things by ear on his keyboard or bass for a couple of years. I'm trying to research if this fits into any learning profiles, it's definitely a big part of who he is.

 

I know he's not off the charts, going to college at 12 kind of kid, I'm sorry if I've come across that way. I just don't see him as moderately gifted, or whatever that full scale IQ classifies him as. I have 4 year old twins, who seem moderately gifted, and he's SO different from them. Good, and bad! :laugh: They seem like the kids who can go to school, do the gifted pull out, and get straight A's and be happy. He would wilt in that environment.

 

After talking it over with DH last night, I'm really wondering about ADD. If I had to guess, in my very non professional opinion, I'd say it's that. I don't think it explains that coding score, but I also don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that that score isn't the end all be all of what's going on.

 

We are going to call a few NP today and see what we can figure out.

My son's WISC-IV scores are about the same and he's been tested at aged 8yo, 11yo, and last month.  (ETA:  WM score is much less and he is clumsy.)His GAI is essentially unmoved.  I call him spectacular because he has spectacular highs and lows.  As adults spend time around DS, the usual reaction is "Wow!"  

 

It's like he's a normal boy and then "Wham!" he just hits you out of the blue with something clever and then trips on his untied shoes.  I will open my computer and discover the local and out of business golf course redesigned in 3-d images to reflect son's dream Air Soft field.   He didn't read CVC words until late 2nd grade and I don't accelerate him.  It's all we can do to get through the day.

 

Just because a kid is gifted does not mean they should be accelerated.  That makes them no less than any other student.  Strive for getting the best out of them.  For the 2e student, certain subjects may come easier while they struggle mightily in other areas.  I agree wholeheartedly with 8filltheheart's approach to the gifted student.

 

When I look at your son's scores, a couple of thoughts come to mind.  Handwriting and mathematics struggles often go together.  Your child may have a mild issue with motor planning that affects math enough to be annoying.  I actually think you should take your DS to an OT for an assessment and discover whether an SIPT is warranted.   I never knew to do that when DS was younger and I deeply regret not seeking the SIPT evaluation.

 

Whatever you do, good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

[FairProspects]

One other thing to consider is that 2E becomes more pronounced as time goes on. The working memory load for K-2 concepts is just not as intense as it is in 4+ where there is more to remember and organize and the working memory/processing speed gets incredibly taxed by information overload and it starts to show. My 2E kid looked off the charts when he was younger and ultimately he is, but he looks completely behind now by achievement standards. A lot of those detail pieces that other gifted kids organize and retrieve so easily are just not correctly filed in his system yet. He was easily 2+ years ahead when tested at 7, but at 10 the picture looks a lot different. I was told to expect this, but you may be seeing the beginning of some things that may indicate a different achievement pattern or not. The long term prognosis is great for these kids but the middle years can look muddled. I do think I would get a 2nd interpretation of the scores if you are not happy with the initial report

[Runningmom80]

My son's WISC-IV scores are about the same and he's been tested at aged 8yo, 11yo, and last month. His GAI is essentially unmoved. I call him spectacular because he has spactacular highs and lows. As adults spend time around DS, the usual reaction is "Wow!"

 

It's like he's a normal boy and then "Wham!" he just hits you out of the blue with something clever and then trips on his untied shoes. I will open my computer and discover the local and out of business golf course redesigned in 3-d images to reflect son's dream Air Soft field. He didn't read CVC words until late 2nd grade and I don't accelerate him. It's all we can do to get through the day.

 

Just because a kid is gifted does not mean they should be accelerated. That makes them no less than any other student. Strive for getting the best out of them. For the 2e student, certain subjects may come easier while they struggle mightily in other areas. I agree wholeheartedly with 8filltheheart's approach to the gifted student.

 

When I look at your son's scores, a couple of thoughts come to mind. Handwriting and mathematics struggles often go together. Your child may have a mild issue with motor planning that affects math enough to be annoying. I actually think you should take your DS to an OT for an assessment and discover whether an SIPT is warranted. I never knew to do that when DS was younger and I deeply regret not seeking the SIPT evaluation.

 

Whatever you do, good luck!

 

What is an SIPT? (Something, something Physical Therapist?) ETA: I googled, but I'd love a laymen's definition.

 

I agree he doesn't need to be accelerated across the board, I've never attempted that, it would have been an exercise in futility if I had. I just try to meet him where he is. The problem is I sometimes have no idea where that is! :laugh:

 

I agree, 8filltheheart's wisdom is wonderful to have. Between her and altevista, I feel i owe that board a million dollars. :hurray:

[Runningmom80]

One other thing to consider is that 2E becomes more pronounced as time goes on. The working memory load for K-2 concepts is just not as intense as it is in 4+ where there is more to remember and organize and the working memory/processing speed gets incredibly taxed by information overload and it starts to show. My 2E kid looked off the charts when he was younger and ultimately he is, but he looks completely behind now by achievement standards. A lot of those detail pieces that other gifted kids organize and retrieve so easily are just not correctly filed in his system yet. He was easily 2+ years ahead when tested at 7, but at 10 the picture looks a lot different. I was told to expect this, but you may be seeing the beginning of some things that may indicate a different achievement pattern or not. The long term prognosis is great for these kids but the middle years can look muddled. I do think I would get a 2nd interpretation of the scores if you are not happy with the initial report

 

That's good to know.  I have been reading the SENG website, and it says now is when an LD can start to show itself, and that's probably what we are seeing.

 

He was superficially diagnosed ADD off of a checklist at 5, but we chose to just work through it at home and see how things went as he matured.  Some things have gotten better, while others have stayed the same.

 

I feel like there are so many specialists I need to call. :laugh:    I think we'll start with the OT, and go from there.  I don't know how to find out who is a good neuropsych, I should probably see if the pediatrician has any recs.  They sent us to the OT he hated though. :ph34r:

[Heathermomster]

What is an SIPT? (Something, something Physical Therapist?) ETA: I googled, but I'd love a laymen's definition.

 

I agree he doesn't need to be accelerated across the board, I've never attempted that, it would have been an exercise in futility if I had. I just try to meet him where he is. The problem is I sometimes have no idea where that is! :laugh:

 

I agree, 8filltheheart's wisdom is wonderful to have. Between her and altevista, I feel i owe that board a million dollars. :hurray:

OhE can probably explain better.  Basically, the SIPT is an OT that evaluates for sensory processing disorders and praxis. 

 

ETA:  My DD hated the OT we saw.  I believe part of the hate is due to her motor planning issues.  I suspect mild sensory issues because she does not always transition well, has weird texture issues, some perfectionism, and has motor planning stuff all going on.

[Runningmom80]

Oh, gotcha! That sounds like what we need.

 

 

I think I will start with a good OT eval, I just need to figure out what to ask for.

[PeterPan]

Heather, your ds is redesigning the golf course for air soft and my dd is turning old buildings in town into dog biscuit bakeries.  What a hoot.   :lol: 

 

Yup, SIPT Products tagged with '0'  Sorry for the ugly label.  That's the SIPT provider finder.

 

To find a good neuropsych?  I may have already said this, but look for spectrum referral lists in your area or state.  Given the nature of your questions, you should be willing to drive to the largest city in your state, if possible.  So google "neuropsychologist autism name of city" and see what you get.  Or "neuropsychologist referral list name of city"...  Just try things.  See if somebody pops up on several lists. Sometimes there will be an autism center or a children's hospital with good psychs.  Call the autism center (I know that's not what you're thinking) and ask if they have people they refer to if people *aren't* on the spectrum.  Or look for the autism schools in that major city and call them to see who THEY refer people to.  I'm not saying your ds is on the spectrum.  I'm saying that's how you find the really good psychs.  Some will see both spectrum and adhd, and to some people adhd is kissing the spectrum and NVLD is on the spectrum.  So when you search across labels, you get in the loop on those doctors.

 

A dc with an adhd label will struggle with math facts, yes.  They need more exposure for things to cement and may need context, etc. etc.  That's really different from dyscalculia.  My ds struggled even get the concept of numbers and doesn't generalize it over, even though we've been working on it.  So we've worked on dot patterns with numbers till we're blue in the face.  He can recognize the dots and say the number.  So yesterday I arrange 6 small containers in the dot pattern for 6 and ask him how many there are.  He counts them, one by one, no clue that he was looking at a pattern.  No clue.  He also doesn't recognize the numbers of his fingers.  But btw yesterday he was figuring out the 10s in 100, 200, 1000, etc. to figure out if they were even or odd.  Crazy, crazy, crazy.  I have a friend telling me those kinds of contradictions are typical of NVLD btw.

 

The OT will run a spectrum screening tool for you btw and probably an EF screening tool as well.  And the OT will also have suggestions on the np they like.  Just sort of cross reference names till you hear one coming up a bunch.

 

And yes, a psych told us that my ds' testing at newly 6 will be the most accurate of the IQ testing he'll ever have because after that the spread from his peers (because of his disability and their lack) will increase.  So if you have numbers that are 20 points higher or something, that makes good sense from what I was told.  And if your full scale was as high as the GAI that first time through, did they have reason to calculate a GAI at that point?  If they did, that would be interesting.  Some people here are swamis and know how to calculate that.  I don't.   :)

 

I think you're going to feel a lot better when you get more consults under your belt.  Eval from the OT, consult with a np to see if they want to expand on the testing to clarify anything, get his eyes screened by a dev. optom. (because I think ALL kids should be screened!).  It will all come together.  

 

Oh, the reason I asked about the even or uneven wasn't to embarrass you.  It's because extreme unevenness would be this huge, huge red flag for LDs that haven't been caught (2E).  So my ds who can't tell you he has 7 fingers up correctly but can explain to you the Trojan war or guns of the revolution or about the biology lesson he watched with dd, that's all over the place and uneven.  My dd, also very bright, is somewhat uneven but not THAT uneven.  She has a label but no LDs.  Whether there are LDs and NVLD or "just" ADHD, he (and you as the teacher!) deserve a full eval that explains things so you can work with him properly.  Even just adhd can require so much adaptation in this population.  Our neuropsych was amazing in building my confidence to go WAY out of the box and know I was doing right by her.  And you know, there ARE things that don't get explained.  He never tried to explain why her word retrieval score was so low (like typical of dyslexics and kids with apraxia).  Didn't bother and didn't label it.  But getting that info from the detailed tests by the neuropsych helped me change how I work with her.  So it's not always about the label.  It's about the info that changes the way you work with him.  

[Runningmom80]

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Edited June 18, 2016 by someonestolemyname

[PeterPan]

Keep us posted on how it goes!  :)

[Runningmom80]

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Edited June 18, 2016 by someonestolemyname

[Incognito]

If I understand the numbers correctly, it looks to me like your son may have "hit the ceiling" on two of the subtests under VCI - which means that if you had his results calculated with extended norms, his #'s would go up (for the VCI).

 

Also, if I understand FSIQ and GAI correctly, the FSIQ on a spread as big as you have should not be caculated, and only the GAI should have been given.

 

So, perhaps you should talk about the results a bit more with the tester to try to understand what they are showing as far as strength.  In Linda Silverman's book on Giftedness she talks about these tests and explains ceilings, scores, discrepancies...

[Runningmom80]

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Edited June 18, 2016 by someonestolemyname

[PeterPan]

Geodob shared this a while back.  I think it's on interpreting the WISC.  http://www.scribd.com/doc/38163652/WISC-IV

[Runningmom80]

Omg, that is 600 pages. I couldn't read it on my phone anyways, the app wouldn't work.

 

This report says 18 or 19. http://images.pearsonclinical.com/images/assets/WISC-IV/WISCIV_TechReport_7.pdf

 

In any event, I'm not all that concerned about the IQ testing, it was only the low psi and coding that worried me.

[FairProspects]

19 is the ceiling on subtests. 18 or 19 qualifies for extended norms.

[Incognito]

It was a bit ago, but IIRC, in Silverman's book she said that 17 and up may qualify for the extended norms.  You can get lower than the absolute top score and still have "points" that are hidden there and not counted because of how the testing is set up (if a child makes an early mistake, for instance, but then goes on to do everything).

 

ETA:  If it is just the processing scores that concern you, then it doesn't hurt to ask the person who did the testing.  You also said that your child purposefully threw that test, right?  

[Runningmom80]

It was a bit ago, but IIRC, in Silverman's book she said that 17 and up may qualify for the extended norms. You can get lower than the absolute top score and still have "points" that are hidden there and not counted because of how the testing is set up (if a child makes an early mistake, for instance, but then goes on to do everything).

 

ETA: If it is just the processing scores that concern you, then it doesn't hurt to ask the person who did the testing. You also said that your child purposefully threw that test, right?

Well, just one section, he said he went slow on one part of the blocks. He was really upset, so I believe him, that said, he did well on it anyways. So that part of the equation had an unknown, if any effect

I did talk to the tester about it, she felt he was just going slow because he's a perfectionist, and she felt he didn't understand the time aspect. She said he showed no sign of urgency.

 

It's still really low in my opinion.

[geodob]

To bring clarity to this, I think that it would be helpful to look at what the Coding sub-test actually involves?

Where it has a picture based test, for 6-7 year olds.

Then a numeral based test for 8-16 year olds.

So that 7.5, he probably did the picture based one?

 

I'll add a link to page that describes each  of the sub-tests, where if scroll down. You'll find Coding.

http://www.thinktonight.com/WISC_IV_subtests_s/331.htm

 

With the 6-7 test, you'll see a kangaroo with a 'red arrow' on it, a cow with 'red U/V shape', and butterfly with a 'red angled equal sign'.

 

So that the tests involves using this a 'key'. Then drawing the appropriate 'red shape', on the kangaroos, cows and butterflies on the page.

Where it is basically a test of visual-motor dexterity, and draw the different shapes.

 

But it is absurd to include a test score of drawing ability, in an Intelligence Scale?

Also to include a test of Writing Fluency, that involves handwriting?

 

Where I'm sure that you would agree, that drawing/ hand-writing ability. 

Have no relationship to Intelligence?

Rather it is a test of ability to 'demonstrate' intelligence.

 

But this reflects an outdated test from last century?

From an age of type-writers and pen and paper.

 

Where we need a new test of 'Intelligence', that reflects our Digital age?

[Runningmom80]

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Edited June 18, 2016 by someonestolemyname