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troubling discovery: 8th grade DS struggles to find main idea


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This morning I discovered (I should note here that we are first-time homeschoolers, in our 6th week ever) that DS13 has great difficulty articulating the main idea of a paragraph.  We were doing an exercise from MCT: "write a short title for each of the three paragraphs of the Gettysburg Address." 

 

The first paragraph is one sentence:  "Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."  (Lincoln, 1863 ;) )

 

His title:  We are all equal.

 

I tried to convey that there are two important pieces of information in that paragraph:  (1) we are all equal, and (2) this nation was founded in part on the principle stated in #1.  Then I said, "I'll bet you could even do it with only 5 words."

 

He still didn't get it, so I floated an answer of my own.  My title:  New Nation Based on Equality.

 

Instead of insisting on an answer of his own for the first paragraph, I moved on to the second paragraph, but it only got worse.  :( 

 

Can anyone help me, either with suggestions for super gentle ways to build the skill, or to tell me I'm doing it wrong and/or expecting too much?

 

Meanwhile, I am searching the boards for ideas, and plan to try the WTM instructions ... but I'm afraid even those may not be gentle enough.  :(  The poor guy was really emotional over how difficult it was.

 

Thanks, all!

 

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I would start with something a lot simpler than the Gettysburg Address. Evan Moor has good Reading Comprehension by grade, one of their Daily series. IMO, you need the teacher book as the student one. Or I would choose any workbooks specifically for reading comprehension. I am seeing more of these, Common Core aligned. There are also computer based resources, such as Achieve 3000.

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Hmm. A couple of ideas come to my mind.

 

First, I would discard the idea that there is a right answer to these kinds of questions. Intelligent and discerning readers can disagree about what the main idea, and certainly with an 8th grader, there needs to be a level of respect for his idea and perspective. So instead of "conveying" the correct answer, I would try to approach it as a discussion between intellectual peers.

 

For what it's worth, if I were in that conversation, I would have offered a perspective different from each of yours. I would say the main idea is the founding of the nation. If I were to summarize more fully, I would say the nation was founded on TWO principles: liberty and equality. So, look, already we have four different opinions about the main idea:

 

1) we are equal

2) the nation was founded on equality

3) our nation was founded in 1776

4) the nation was founded on liberty and equality

 

Having said that, I do understand your frustration. How is he at narrating? Can he summarize several paragraphs of fiction or non-fiction into a few sentences? If not, I would start with that skill.

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Having said that, I do understand your frustration. How is he at narrating? Can he summarize several paragraphs of fiction or non-fiction into a few sentences? If not, I would start with that skill.

 

I think this is why the discovery this morning surprised me so much.  I have been having him write a summary of an article in one of his science magazines each week.  After a couple false starts, I wrote a sample for him (funny side note:  I found that I first had to write a full essay before I really understood what the author was doing and why, and only then could I write a decent summary) - anyway, it turned out to be quite helpful to DS to have both my essay and my summary to see the distinctions and have a model summary to work from.  So he has written a few good summaries since then on his own.

 

Because this is our first time homeschooling, we have never done any strict narration work.  I'll ask him for a quick oral bit ("What just happened there?" or "Can you remind me what was happening in the story when we left off yesterday?") and he does fine with that.

 

Maybe it has something to do with his "big picture" viewpoint?  He seems to lean VSL in many ways, but not extremely so.

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I would not start with something like the Gettysburg address if this is his first exposure to the concept. Pick something simpler.

If I wanted to do this exercise, I would pick a selection that is interesting to him and uses contemporary language. And then build up from there.

 

This said, I really don't see that much of a difference between "We are all equal" and "New nation based on equality".

 

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Just to clarify - this isn't his first exposure; it's just the first time with me (and with MCT).  He did bits of this sort of exercise in PS over the years.

 

I actually rather liked that it was the G.A., because (1) he covered it in social studies in PS last year, so he already understands the language and context, and (2) it is a "real" piece of writing, not one of those "manufactured to fit the lesson" pieces found in Lang. Arts workbooks in PS.  For some reason those always strike me as contrived and, well, somewhat condescending.

 

Last night I read some old narration threads and got some good ideas, particularly from Nan in Mass, on how to teach this skill with an older child.

 

And I am definitely hearing those of you who are telling me his answer was fine.  I will back off.  :)

 

 

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A good free resource is the 1879 McGuffey readers, they have comprehension questions. Start slightly below easy reading level.

 

I would also check his reading grade level and teach to a 12th grade level if he is not there yet, that makes this type of thing easier:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/WellTaughtPhonicsStudent.html

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A good free resource is the 1879 McGuffey readers, they have comprehension questions. Start slightly below easy reading level.

 

I would also check his reading grade level and teach to a 12th grade level if he is not there yet, that makes this type of thing easier:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/WellTaughtPhonicsStudent.html

 

Thanks for the resources, ElizabethB.

 

As to the bolded - I'm curious.  Why do you think that would make this easier?  Do you just mean that comprehending more words (maybe including understanding connotation, nuance, etc.) makes it easier to comprehend the paragraph?  Or is there more to it?

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I have an 8th grader, and sometimes I "uncover" some skill that I think he should already have. But you know what? If it is something that really should have been taught sooner, he learns it really fast.

 

Some things, like finding the main idea, really need to be cycled through. Just because a kid learned how to find the main idea of a simple paragraph in 4th grade doesn't mean that the child has been primed to know how to find the main idea James Joyce's Finnegans Wake.

 

I think you can relax and just start where he is right now:)

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Thanks for the resources, ElizabethB.

 

As to the bolded - I'm curious. Why do you think that would make this easier? Do you just mean that comprehending more words (maybe including understanding connotation, nuance, etc.) makes it easier to comprehend the paragraph? Or is there more to it?

When you can easily and without taxing the brain sound out any word, more brain power is freed up to understand the passage and make educated context and root word guesses about vocabulary. Any brain power being used for decoding is less available for other functions.

 

The closer you can get to the pronunciation of an unknown word, the better you will be able to make educated guesses about its meaning. Some readers tend to skip tough words, this does not allow them to add them to their vocabulary. If you read a difficult word 10 times in different contexts and have sounded it out well each time, you are likely to have a basic idea of the word, if you skip it or are not close to its pronunciation, you are less likely to add it to your vocabulary.

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When you can easily and without taxing the brain sound out any word, more brain power is freed up to understand the passage and make educated context and root word guesses about vocabulary. Any brain power being used for decoding is less available for other functions.

 

The closer you can get to the pronunciation of an unknown word, the better you will be able to make educated guesses about its meaning. Some readers tend to skip tough words, this does not allow them to add them to their vocabulary. If you read a difficult word 10 times in different contexts and have sounded it out well each time, you are likely to have a basic idea of the word, if you skip it or are not close to its pronunciation, you are less likely to add it to your vocabulary.

 

I see.  And I agree.  :)  Thanks!

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I have an 8th grader, and sometimes I "uncover" some skill that I think he should already have. But you know what? If it is something that really should have been taught sooner, he learns it really fast.

 

Some things, like finding the main idea, really need to be cycled through. Just because a kid learned how to find the main idea of a simple paragraph in 4th grade doesn't mean that the child has been primed to know how to find the main idea James Joyce's Finnegans Wake.

 

I think you can relax and just start where he is right now:)

 

Good points, thank you.  I think I need to work on not panicking so quickly.  ;)

 

 

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Yes yes yes! The Evan Moor comprehension books are great. In fact, I'd get the sixth grade one and help him pick his reading level (probably the third level, most advanced) and work through that for comprehension/writing practice to get used to reading critically. It's a gentle introduction, very stepwise, and the articles are written just for this purpose:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Nonfiction-Reading-Practice-Grade-6/dp/1557999457/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0ANP6SJ6157HVBPGQMH5

That one looks good. I've seen it in teacher stores, and the passages are appealing. The series we use is Daily Reading Comprehension. It only takes about 10 minutes a day. I get the downloadable version, keep the teacher parts in Notability on my iPad.

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Here is an idea if you wish to work further on this skill, although you may want to start with a level down, check the samples:

 

http://classicalacademicpress.com/reasoning-reading-level-two/#.VBNYu9q9KSM

 

Just doing a couple pages of the sample packet was enough to reassure me that he really can do it - so maybe you all are right about the Gettysburg Address being too much of a leap.  I still intend to revisit that lesson, but I promise I'll do it with more patience and more guidance.  :)

 

Thanks to all for talking me off the ledge!

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