Please help me think this through

[songsparrow]

Kindly don't quote, as I may delete parts later (I don't usually post this much detailed information.)

 

My 10 yo dd wanted to attend B&M school this year because it was her first year of middle school and she wanted to see what middle school was like.  Today was her 3rd day of school and she came out of school upset and saying she wants to return to homeschool because of her frustrations with her math class.  Any advice and suggestions helping me to think this through would be very much appreciated.

 

Here are the details - sorry it's so long:

DD10 has homeschooled for the past year and a half (half of 4th grade and all of 5th grade).  She attended B&M school for K-3rd and the first few months of 4th grade.  2/3 of the way through 1st grade she skipped to second grade (and did well both academically and socially).  In 4th grade she began to complain that she felt like she did in 1st grade before she skipped, and asked to skip another grade; that's when I decided to pull her to homeschool.  We agreed to let her go back to B&M school for middle school.  There was no compelling reason for the change except that she really wanted to see what middle school was like.  Her father and I agreed because we feel that, to effectively homeschool, the child has to be at least on board with the decision (and this particular child can be a challenge to teach even in the best of circumstances).  

 

School started 3 days ago.  All had been going well until today (she was excited to see old friends, has made new friends, has enjoyed most of her classes and has only had a few minor complaints).  Today dd came out of school upset and declaring she wants to return to homeschool.  

 

The problem is math (and I knew this was going to be an issue).  In elementary school, the school district used a spiraling math curriculum, where concepts were introduced and returned to in subsequent years.  Dd found this very frustrating.  When they would get to a topic again in subsequent years, she would be upset - she seemed personally insulted, and would say "they don't think I learned it last year!" or she'd say "we already learned this in ___ grade, it's for little kids!"  Although I tried to explain that part of it is review and then each time they go a little deeper into the concepts, it didn't change her opinion (or outrage).  By last year, she was really resistant to doing any elementary math and kept pushing to start algebra (some days she outright refused, other days she would stall, she didn't want me to actually teach her anything, etc.).  I managed it by insisting that she do a small amount of Singapore Math (so I could look for gaps) and then I would let her do what she called "college math" (Jacobs' Mathematics: A Human Endeavor) which she enjoyed.  We did start some pre algebra for a couple of months in the spring, and she did well with it.  My plan was to work on algebra with her to keep her engaged and challenged, and also periodically work on some challenge problems to review and practice elementary math concepts.  

 

Last spring she took an algebra readiness test at the school district in preparation for middle school.  Her scores were not high enough for her to place into algebra in 6th grade (only 1-2% of 6th graders place into it).  I did not get to see the test or her answers, so I don't know what the problems were or what she got right or wrong.  I don't know whether she scored high or low, I only know she didn't score high enough.

 

Today she had her first full math class (since they've gotten through the start-of-the year introductory stuff).  The topic was factors and multiples (prime & composite numbers, etc.).  She came out extremely frustrated - she said she already knows this stuff and she does not want to sit through a year of review; she wants to return to homeschooling and do algebra.  She said that although she knew she wouldn't be doing algebra, she didn't think that math would be this easy.  She said she's willing to give up all of her other classes to come home and do algebra.

 

What I am wondering now is, how should I respond?

 

My first inclination is to have her stay at least a semester so that she truly gets a feel for what middle school is going to be like and whether the positives outweigh the negatives, and so that I have time to plan her curriculum. 

 

I am wondering if I should talk to her math teacher, and if so what I should say or request.  Since it is only her 3rd day with brand new teachers, I don't have any type of rapport developed with her teacher.  I was considering asking if she could pretest to see if she could test out of chapters of the book, and do some alternative, more challenging work during that time.  Dd is not thrilled with that idea as she just wants to do algebra.  

 

At the same time, I know this child.  She is intense.  Once she has got her mind set on something there is little to nothing that I (or anyone) can do to change it.  She is going to rant and carry on about this class as long as she is attending the school.  Consequences for such behavior will have little to no effect.  She is going to not do her best work on the homework and I would not be surprised if she soon refuses to do it at all.  She's already stormed away from this first assignment at least four times and I have had to make her come back.  She is saying that she won't go back to this class, which means that getting her up and to school might become a nightmare.  The idea of trying to keep her in the school for another few months is draining and daunting, to say the least.  

[Ethel Mertz]

Your daughter sounds like she has a very strong will. This will stand her in good stead in the future, though I know how frustrating it can be to parent such a child. 

 

You could afterschool her.

 

But, seriously, I think I would take this child out of B&M if you are sure she has made up her mind. You could have her work through Khan Academy materials until you have her math resources in place. With other subjects, you could gradually add them in as you get something in place.

 

Hopefully, others will have additional or alternative suggestions.

[SarahW]

Would the math teacher be amendable to you refusing any math homework?

 

Sometimes teachers send homework home only because they think parents expect it. If this teacher allows that (given the expectation that your dd will still participate in the class) then can you afterschool algebra?

[wapiti]

She sounds a lot like my dd (we homeschooled for the same year and a half and then put her in private middle school for 6th).

[raptor_dad]

Is math really the issue?

 

If she wants to be in PS, this level of frustration is to be expected. Middle school isn't an enriching, self actualizing time. What are her expectations?

 

ETA: If possible I would try to push through Christmas either way if this was her choice. I understand this isn't always possible. With DS in Elementary we strove to make in through the first 9wks and then until Fall break and then until the end of the month and then until the end of the week... ultimately panic attacks which haven't been seen before or since didn't allow us to make it through the end of that day... stuff happens... However, at this level of maturity I would push either to the end of the 9wk term or semester for a change if possible.

[8filltheheart]

Do you have access to the math textbook so that you could actually see what is going to be covered in the next few weeks? If not, could you call the office and ask to see the text or a scope/sequence of the course? Are her expectations realistic?

 

FWIW, since the purpose of sending her was bc you wanted her on board w/homeschooling, what has changed to make that not the actual purpose? Was their anydiscussion prior to her attending as to what the options were if she decided taht she did not want to continue at the school? If the purpose extending her time there is to ensure understanding that decisions come with consequences b/c choices result in specific outcomes, I would make sure you clarify with your dd the reasons behind all of the decisions, yours and hers. (I am one that likes to make sure I follow through on what I have discussed with my kids. I am also a firm believer in letting natural consequences be great teaching moments.)

[songsparrow]

Thank you for the replies so far!  Yes, it's really all about math.  This child is very vocal about her complaints and there is nothing else at issue.

 

Dd says there is no textbook (I heard this from some parents at the elementary school, too; that with the adoption of common core they abandoned their old textbooks but have not purchased new yet - everything is just worksheets).  I will ask her math teacher for a syllabus, and depending on what is on it I may also ask them if there is any way she could be re-considered for algebra.  But since she took their placement test last spring, I think it would be a very hard sell.  

 

Re afterschooling, I considered that as a possibility.  But my daughter was concerned that it would be double the work (I doubt the teacher would let her out of the homework because completing it is a part of their grade).  And I am concerned that then we'll get into the situation (if she continues in the district) where they'll want her to take the school's algebra class anyway and I will have to fight that, etc.

 

ETA:  As to why I'm struggling with the decision of what to do, I guess it's because although I would not have been surprised to find that she was back home homeschooling after winter break, I was surprised that she is asking so soon.  I was also surprised with how distraught she was today after what seemed to be a great start to the school year.  To me, sitting through a boring class is an annoyance but survivable; to her, it's akin to torture.  I guess I'm debating the value in making her stick out this commitment for a while longer, versus any harm that might cause (anxiety, etc.) and the value in bringing her home and getting in a full year of homeschooling instead of an interrupted year (assuming she doesn't complete the year at the school).  I definitely won't pull her at least until I've spoken with the math teacher a bit. 

[Tracy]

My husband is a high school teacher.  In his school district, the teachers have been encouraged to (1) differentiate instruction, and (2) give grades for what is actually learned.  The way this has effected his students is, (1) Homework is assigned but does not count toward the grade and is not required, and (2) tests can be re-taken, but only if all of the homework has been completed.  That way students who do not need the homework to do well are not burdened with "busy work."  I don't know if your 10yo is mature enough to handle this, but perhaps you could see if the teacher would be willing to consider this type of arrangement for your dd?  

[EndOfOrdinary]

Um...I might have a slightly unpopular opinion here.  First off, your DD is ten and that is a very hard age.  It is so in the middle.  I do recognize that, so being the tough love parent might not work.  Secondly, I was that ten year old and so I can imagine how difficult it must be to deal with (I am always amazed my parents did not just drown me!).

 

I would make her stick it out till the end of the semester and I would be the most hands off parent in the world.  I wouldn't talk to the teacher.  I wouldn't care if she did not do her homework.  I wouldn't even nag or bother her about it.  I would be really upfront that you do not want to hear about her math class if it was going to be all negative complaining.  This is not because you will not be her advocate, but because she is asking for something unreasonable.

 

She asked to go to school, feeling frustrated and sticking out annoyances is what that means.  Public school does not cater to the needs of the individual (regardless of whatever lofty mission statements are made) because it physically can't.  She gets to realize that in going to school she is joining a community where the needs of the individual are forfeited to the community (this is not only culturally true, but legally as well).  It is not a pick and choose situation where she gets to like one thing and do it, but not like the other and have no consequences.  That is a hard thing to learn, but it is the major point of public school.

 

If you do pull her, then let her know she does not get to readily return.  It seems as though this is honestly a power play of "I do not want to, you cannot make me."  She is getting into the teenage years, so setting a precedent might be necessary.

[zarabellesmom]

Sadly, the first few weeks are always review, right? It may just be too early to decide. Or, it may be (probably is) that she is placed at the wrong level. Of course, I'm biased because I think every child should be homeschooled as much as possible, but if you want this to work, I would say you haven't given it a fair shot yet.

[wapiti]

Sadly, the first few weeks are always review, right? It may just be too early to decide. 

 

This is a very good point that I forgot about.

[mohini]

I kind of agree with EndofOrdinary. Maybe just tell her "you are going to have to stick it out until Christmas." And then lay back. Give her the support she needs to address the problem herself either by speaking to the teacher - or by ignoring the work and suffering the consequence. It's probably a good, albeit painful, lesson. But if I understand, she's already at least 1 yr ahead by age so it's not a matter of keeping her on track.

 

If she wants to prove how much she knows, she will have to do the work - better than everyone else. If she wants to prove that she is miserable, it will be easy to ignore the work and get a grade that does not reflect her intelligence or readiness. Maybe explain that to her and give her a couple of weeks to try to work through the potential consequences.

 

Really, you can pull her at any moment so giving her a chance to learn a valuable life lesson about expectations, consequences and defining oneself in a community (esp an institutional one) may be a good educational choice. Of course, you know her best and if you don't think she's emotionally ready for that kind of responsibility or that she would suffer too much in the environment, just take her out and don't look back.

[8filltheheart]

I don't know that the emphasis should be on making her remain in the school until the semester break w/o knowing what conversations transpired prior to enrollment.  Was there any discussion about how long to give it a try?   Were there contingency plans in case she changed her mind (was she even given the option of changing her mind??)  Was the decision to enroll this yr simply b/c dd wanted to and b/c it was her decision it was for the yr?

 

I don't have any understanding about what went into the decision-making process and what the expectations were.  This is the sort of decision that we as a family would have clearly defined prior to the situation arising and the ensuing discussions would be based on what had been decided previously.

 

If the decision was simply to give it a try, then an arbitrary withdrawal date of semester break seems to invalidate the student's input. (though I completely agree that 3 days is not even giving it a try.)  However, if the decision was she would attend b/c she wanted to try middle school and she was not willing to entertain the possible downsides (like the math class), I wouldn't allow her to withdraw b/c decisions come with consequences and enrollment comes with attendance.    

 

 

[songsparrow]

Just wanted to say a big thank you to everyone!  There were a number of things that were causing me to feel quite frazzled and stressed yesterday, and this issue was heaped on top.  Things are going much better today, and we will take some time to consider and make the best decision for dd.

[Crimson Wife]

I would push for an independent study in math before giving up on school entirely. Maybe she did not place into their algebra class but she could do algebra independently and go at her own pace.

[kiwik]

She decided to go to school and she needs to give it a chance. There will probably be at least 6 to 10 weeks reveiw. If after about 3 months she is still finding the maths intolerable then you can brainstorm solutions. Until then you have made decisions based on her being in school so she needs to stay in school until you can rearrange your life again.

 

Eta. There will be major readjustments going on too.

[Guest niffer13]

EndOfOrdinary is bang on with her opinion. If you pull her, what is the lesson? If you don't like something, quit? That life should never be boring? That mistakes won't stick? That adults should adjust their behaviors to pander to you?

 

If she sticks it out, at least one semester, what is the lesson? Stick with you decisions? Life means incorporating the good and the bad?

 

Don't rush in and solve her problems for her, either by talking to the teacher or pulling her. If she wants the teacher to make special accommodations for her, SHE needs to ask. She is 10. You have given her a taste of freedom of choice, now give her a taste of responsibility. Otherwise, stay out.

 

If you decide to let her quit in Dec, what did she lose? 1/2 a year of algebra that can easily be made up with a few weeks of homeschool? And what did she gain? A very hard to learn life lesson.

 

I may seem harsh, but I have the exact same child. Highly gifted, a sense of superiority, and a belief that rules don't apply to her. When she attended a B&M, she had a math assignment she lost, and threw together a replacement. She got a 54 on the assignment. She begged me to write a note, call, show up with my mighty parent power and fix the situation NOW! Nope. I had her talk to the teacher. And surprise, surprise, the teacher let her redo the assignment after DD explained. DD is more confident in her own abilities to handle her problems. It was a fight to get her in the room to talk on her own, bit I did just what PP said. I was hands off. If you want the grade, you'll do this. If not.... Well college won't look at her 5th grade math score. (I didn't tell her that last part).

 

Strong willed kids are used to getting their way through the path of least resistance. Don't make yourself that path all the time, or she won't realize qhatbissues she can handle herself.

 

Good luck!

[Lawyer&Mom]

In my district kids are allowed to homeschool individual subjects.  There are kids who attend B&M and homeschool just math.  Would something like this be an option, if  it is clear that 6th grade math just isn't working?  I don't know that I would push for her to be in algebra in sixth if there is any chance she isn't 100% ready.  Its not a race and algebra in 7th is still plenty accelerated.  Maybe now is the time to attack AoPS Pre-Algebra?  Could you maybe convince her that this is super-advanced, extra-challenging, and all around more impressive then just going straight to algebra?

 

 

[kiwik]

I so wish that was an option here.