Another school reading question

[SKL]

I'm brainstorming here.  I have a 3rd grade, 7yo daughter who is a voracious reader.  She's on book 5 of Harry Potter, just finished Holes, and has a bunch of other books (or piles of books) going.

 

Her reading comprehension scores and vocabulary development aren't keeping up with her interest level.  So this is creating some odd results at school.

 

I have some ideas for improvement, but I don't want reading to go from her favorite pastime to a chore.  For example, I could insist on her looking up new words in the dictionary.  Or I could condition privileges on achieving xx% comprehension average on AR.  But she hates being told what to do, and I think it would make her very conflicted about reading.

 

What are some things that have worked for you along these lines?

[Dmmetler]

Does she like to write? If so, doing a book blog might be a way for her to narrate back the books she enjoys by writing reviews of them, which you can then share with friends/family. My DD loves having her stuff "published" online, even if it only gets a half dozen hits and all of her followers have the same last name. For vocabulary, we have a bulletin board. I have her pick words from her reading or other assignments, and come up with several possible definitions, post them on the board, and then ask anyone who comes in to pick the correct definition. She loves doing this, (especially when she manages to "trick" a grown up) and it encourages her to stop and actually look up words she doesn't know instead of letting them pass.

 

I would absolutely not worry about AR scores as a measure of comprehension. They're pretty awful for anything but judging recall. Part of doing well on AR (or other standardized comprehension tests) is realizing the kind of questions they ask and picking those details out of the books as you read. At age 7, I'm not surprised she's not good at playing that game yet. One thing that I've found that helps here is, again, to have DD make up questions and try to stump other people. There are sites online where you can have your child make games (jeopardylabs.com is one that's free. Quia.com has a free trial), and again, those links can be shared online so others can try it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

Nope, she isn't big on writing, although she's starting to do it occasionally for fun.  She's been writing about Quiddich etc.  ;)

 

Good idea to make it a fun game.  I will give that some more thought.  I am sure she'd love to stump the adults.  :)

[EKS]

How do you know that her comprehension and vocabulary development aren't keeping up with her interest level?  

 

If you're basing this on comprehension and vocabulary test scores, it may just be that she's not good at taking those tests.  When you talk with her about what she's read, does it seem like she's not comprehending well?  How does her vocabulary seem to you just based on your interactions with her?

 

Here is what I mean:  My son has always been a very advanced reader and in conversation it's obvious that he has a great vocabulary.  However, every year for several years his ITBS scores in those areas weren't up to what I knew his true achievement level was, and in fact, were declining.  This started with vocabulary.  So I told him he had to read each prompt and all the answer choices aloud before selecting an answer (this tactic obviously wouldn't work in a classroom setting).  Remarkably, his vocabulary score that year jumped from the 65th to the 95th percentile.  A few years later, after several years of worsening comprehension scores, I made him read all of the passages and questions and answers aloud.  His comprehension score jumped from the 67th to the 93rd percentile.

 

[Arcadia]

Her reading comprehension scores and vocabulary development aren't keeping up with her interest level. So this is creating some odd results at school.

Both my boys reading level are much higher than reading comprehension scores which are on grade level. Their vocab is a few grades higher. Just work on reading comprehension and vocabulary separately. I have seen improvement year on year for my boys after three years of reading comprehension workbooks.

 

My boys check the dictionary for assigned reading for literature but not for leisure readings.

 

ETA:

If she is doing reading comprehension or vocabulary tests in school, the tests are more of test prep kind of tests than an accurate assessment of vocabulary level.

[regentrude]

I have not found AR scores to have anything to do with actual reading comprehension.

If you talk to her about the books she reads for fun, you see whether she comprehends what she reads.

That does not have to translate into acing a bunch of stupid multiple choice questions that do not test reading comprehension but fact recall - a kid who is perfectly capable of comprehending that the dress of Suzie's doll was blue or that the name of the protagonist's cousin was Kate may be unable to remember this fact at the AR test.

I would not worry one iota about the AR tests as long as YOU see that she comprehends what she reads. And I would most definitely not tie privileges to performance on a computerized multiple choice exam.

 

ETA: how do you know her vocabulary is lacking? How do you measure this? Her vocab may not completely tailor with lists they have in school, but those are artificial. I found audio books above the student's independent reading level a great and easy way to increase vocab.

 

[Paige]

I wouldn't worry about AR at all. 

 

Sometimes comprehension and vocabulary can lag behind reading ability because the kid likes the story so much that she will ignore sections she doesn't understand and make up the gist of what is being said from context clues. If you really aren't sure, you could pick up whatever she's reading, read a few chapters yourself, and then ask her about it. Ask her about the main idea of that chapter, ask her if she knows what some of the more advanced vocabulary means, and see if she's following the story as she should. I would do it all orally and with no pressure. If she doesn't understand something, show her where in the chapter she should have picked up on it and explain it if needed.

 

You could also have her read more from a kindle and encourage her to highlight words she doesn't know. It's so much easier than using a dictionary and takes away the burden of looking things up.

[weddell]

DD uses a kindle and I installed an intermediate (the lowest level I could find for a kindle) dictionary as the default. So when she touches a word, it looks it up in that. I think the dictionary is a middle school one. The definitions still don't always make sense to her, but sometimes that works. We still do read alouds and I make of point of looking up words if I'm not sure of the meanings. If I were reading to myself, I would just get the meaning from context, but I feel like demonstrating that no one knows every word and that it's ok to look it up are good for dd to see. I think because of that she is pretty open to asking vocab questions. 

[rocassie]

What about reading the same book, and then doing a "book club" type discussion with her.  Make it fun, with tea and cookies (or whatever she likes to do) and have a couple points of discussion that help draw out the narrative.  Even have the book handy so you can reference certain things.  Not only can it help her comprehension skills but it can be a memorable experience together.

[kiwik]

I think it is normal for an advanced reader to read both above and below level (often at the same time). I don't think it is necessary to comprehend totally everything you read.

[SKL]

It is so strange, she has taken 3 book tests and got 60, 80, 60.  Of course the easier 2 books were the ones she got 60 on.  The teacher will not increase her AR ZPD range until she gets some high comprehension scores.  This may prove to be a long year ....

[SKL]

About her actual vocabulary level - I am sure it is above average, but not as high as her reading level, because she won't look up new words.

 

So far I haven't seen any grades or feedback from the teacher, so I don't know if she can tell my kid is capable in general.  I'm not going to be that parent who goes in there and says "my kid is the smartest in the room," but I would like them to understand that cognitive and academic ability are not her issues.

[wendyroo]

For example, I could insist on her looking up new words in the dictionary.

 

I'd put out a bounty on really cool, new vocab words.  I'd pay a nickle for any new word the kids showed me in their books.  They don't have to know what it means, they don't even have to know how to pronounce it, but if they bring it to me rather than skip it, and listen as I pronounce and roughly define it then they earn a nickle.  

 

Obviously, I would call their bluff if they tried to bring "new" words that they have actually been using correctly in conversation for years, but I would be willing to pay for even borderline words.  I have been using the word hustle forever, in the sense of "hustle and get your shoes on".  Recently it came to light that Peter thought it meant "stop talking".  Oops.

 

Wendy

[Dmmetler]

I'd put out a bounty on really cool, new vocab words. I'd pay a nickle for any new word the kids showed me in their books. They don't have to know what it means, they don't even have to know how to pronounce it, but if they bring it to me rather than skip it, and listen as I pronounce and roughly define it then they earn a nickle.

 

Obviously, I would call their bluff if they tried to bring "new" words that they have actually been using correctly in conversation for years, but I would be willing to pay for even borderline words. I have been using the word hustle forever, in the sense of "hustle and get your shoes on". Recently it came to light that Peter thought it meant "stop talking". Oops.

 

Wendy

Donna Andrews, in her mystery series with birds in each title (starting with Murder with Peacocks) has a character who pays the kids in the family per SYLLABLE for new words learned and defined correctly. I always liked that idea, but have never implemented it because I have a kid who reads the dictionary for fun and I suspect she'd bankrupt me!

[MotherGoose]

My child is not in school, but she is also reading Harry Potter at age 7-8. Do you mean that the AR scores aren't 3rd grade, or they aren't 6th grade or whatever her reading level is? It fascinates me that my dd can pronounce words perfectly, read complicated books and understand them (because who could read HP if they didn't comprehend it, and because she talks about what she's reading all the time). She learned early on to skip over words she doesn't know and usually she knows what the story's about anyway. Re: making her look up words. I have tried this, but I've found that it requires a really big dictionary to find many of the words my dd doesn't know. I could let her use the computer. The process is rather cumbersome, and the words are above grade level anyway. She CAN look up words, and looking up 3rd grade words in a dictionary is much easier (but not necessary for her usually). So I just tell her what they mean, or I turn the dictionary to the correct page and let her find the word, etc. Perhaps she could find a few words in each chapter and either write them down or mark them in some way (my dd hates to write so she'd never write them down) and you could look them up with her. This may or may not help, but it's what came to mind. :) If she's on a low level of AR, maybe she thinks the whole business is silly and doesn't want to be bothered with it :) I could see my dd doing that.

[Arcadia]

It is so strange, she has taken 3 book tests and got 60, 80, 60. Of course the easier 2 books were the ones she got 60 on.

It's too easy for the easier two books and she is bored with the tests. She might have to play the "rules" of the AR "game" to get to read the books she wants.

[Reefgazer]

I'm not sure exactly what I would do in that circumstance, except that I am sure I would not condition privileges on a certain test score.  IMO, it encourages doing something only for a grade and makes cheating more tempting when the kids get older and can reason that they can get their privileges restored that way.  Are AR tests/AR reading required for your DD, or is it optional?  It was optional for my kids when they were in school, and I didn't ask them to do the readings/books or take the tests unless they wanted to because they read plenty of books of their own choice that weren't on the AR list.  I don't generally think too highly of the AR reading choices or the information the AR tests give about a student.

 

Perhaps having her keep only 2 books going at one time would be worth a try?  Or having her write summaries/stories about each chapter of her books? 

I'm brainstorming here.  I have a 3rd grade, 7yo daughter who is a voracious reader.  She's on book 5 of Harry Potter, just finished Holes, and has a bunch of other books (or piles of books) going.

 

Her reading comprehension scores and vocabulary development aren't keeping up with her interest level.  So this is creating some odd results at school.

 

I have some ideas for improvement, but I don't want reading to go from her favorite pastime to a chore.  For example, I could insist on her looking up new words in the dictionary.  Or I could condition privileges on achieving xx% comprehension average on AR.  But she hates being told what to do, and I think it would make her very conflicted about reading.

 

What are some things that have worked for you along these lines?

 

[SKL]

I'm not sure exactly what I would do in that circumstance, except that I am sure I would not condition privileges on a certain test score.  IMO, it encourages doing something only for a grade and makes cheating more tempting when the kids get older and can reason that they can get their privileges restored that way.  Are AR tests/AR reading required for your DD, or is it optional?  It was optional for my kids when they were in school, and I didn't ask them to do the readings/books or take the tests unless they wanted to because they read plenty of books of their own choice that weren't on the AR list.  I don't generally think too highly of the AR reading choices or the information the AR tests give about a student.

 

Perhaps having her keep only 2 books going at one time would be worth a try?  Or having her write summaries/stories about each chapter of her books? 

 

They are required to do a certain # of points each trimester.  For the current trimester, Miss E has to do 14 points, I think - not very many.  In addition, their comprehension average is a major part of their reading grade.  The optional part is that if they want to "make the wall of fame," they have to get 125 points in the year.

 

I am honestly torn on this.  One part of me wants her to find her bearings on this without me pushing her.  It really goes against my grain to turn a pleasurable activity into a chore.  I remember when I was a kid and I taught myself to play piano.  I loved it, and I'd play for an hour or more every day.  Then I started taking lessons, and I soon lost my motivation to practice.  Sometimes I would go the 3 weeks between lessons without practicing at all.  I know all kids are different, but if my kid is anything like me, telling her she has to read xyz book in xyz way is about as helpful as burning all her books.

 

However, the other part of me thinks that she is just lacking confidence/resolve, and a slightly militant push from me (or her teacher) might jump start her engines.

 

Right now I am thinking that I will refuse to sign her assignment book each day until she tells me what book she is going to test on the next day, and tells me something about the book so I can gauge whether she really read it.

 

[Jennifer N.]

That last sentence you wrote is exactly what I would do.  Would I have her do this for books she is reading for pleasure at home?  Probably not, but I might check in on her understanding every now and again.  But books that are assigned for school and she is not passing the test, yes I would have her retell the main parts of the story to me.  Actually, the AR type tests test the lowest level of comprehension (via multiple choice questions) so yes I would be concerned if my child could not pass these tests.  I would teach her how to think about the basic story elements (characters, setting, problem solution) and be able to retell a book read for school.  I am sure she is a very good reader but she should be able to retell a book she has read or answer basic multiple choice questions, give or take the couple of questions that you can overthink and think of why more than one answer choice could be correct. 

 

I don't know what level she is reading for these school tests but can you bring the level back to a grade level text?  I am thinking of something like Charlotte's Web that is considered a 3rd grade level book but is such a beautiful book to read.  Even if your child is reading on a much higher level, there are still books of value to read on the 3rd grade level or to re-read if she's read them in the past.  I have found this link to be very useful to me in finding books on a certain grade level:  https://home.comcast.net/~nigiansante/  I would have her drop down until she reaches a grade level where she can accurately retell a story or answer basic mult choice questions.  So if she's reading on 6th grade level, go find some great 4th or 5th grade books she hasn't read yet.  There are many.  Again, I am not talking about her leisure reading, but school reading.

 

Is it possible that your child has always been a high level reader as compared to classmates and has never really received solid guided reading instruction at school?  I have heard of this happening with so many children.  It is disheartening, because I always taught my high level readers too.  Less often than the lower level readers but still 3x a week.  I know of several children who are high readers (and one or two live in my house) and always have been and so they have rarely received small group reading instruction from teachers in the primary grades or higher.  In that case, it is possible your child has never been taught how to break a story down into its simple parts, the story elements.  Yes, we can argue about the value of that I guess but still shouldn't any reader be able to answer basic questions about a story? 

 

I just met with a friend of mine this summer who was concerned about her daughter's reading.  She is a high level reader but what I found is her ability to "decode" words, to read them aloud, was actually 2-3 grade levels above her comprehension level.  So on word lists she can read at grade level 6 easily but her comprehension is 3rd to 4th grade level.  To me a child like this needs to be immersed in quality reading at the 3rd to 4th grade level for some time and with depth.

 

But that is just my opinion.  I have other resources for great books to have your child read if you are interested.

[SKL]

So yesterday I was looking for books we have that she can use for AR.  I learned that not only will they not let her test on books above her ZPD range (currently 3.3 - 3.7), but she also isn't allowed to test on books below the range.  I can imagine how frustrating this is, since probably most of the books she tested on in 2nd grade were above this range.  I went through a pile of good but easy books we have, and found only a small handful that she is allowed to test on.  It was disheartening.  I told her that I don't blame her for being frustrated and I would be too - but she needs to play the game in order to bust out of that range sooner rather than later.

 

It seems she took that to heart, because she got a couple of 90s today and was more eager to read an "allowed" book for tomorrow.

 

I'm still debating whether to talk to the teacher, who is rumored to be very crabby and who is going on maternity leave soon.  Would you talk to the teacher, and how would you go about it?

[Caroline]

SKL, that sucks. I hate when teachers are ao rigid with AR. I hope you can get it worked out soon.

 

With my DS, I did talk to the teacher about widening the range. (He really just wanted to read a fat book, so we went to Barnes and Noble and bought the fattest book we could find in the range.) Anyway, the teacher did agree to widen the range.

 

I hope you can get the same results.

[Jennifer N.]

Hmmm... you know those text levels sound like what you might want to start with anyway to check on her comprehension.  Can you find anything she likes in those levels, even if she's rereading?

 

If you approach the teacher, you could ask her how she views your child's strengths and weaknesses (tho' weakness is not a popular word so maybe areas for improvement) in reading and comprehension.  That might tell you how your child is doing in class and how the teacher perceives her as a reader.  You might learn something that could be of use to your child.

 

If she's already improved within just a few days, maybe all she needs is to work on retelling and basic fact recall and she'll be flying through the AR tests.  Listen, my oldest did not like taking the DRA tests in 1st grade and retelling.  His teacher told me, he looks at me like hey lady didn't you just listen to me read, don't you know what the story's about?  She understood his point but she also was required to give the tests, document reading levels and reading progress.  I just worked on his retelling skills some with him.  And I made sure to do it at home with his younger siblings over time.  Like I told them, yes these tests are just one view of your reading but you want to do as well as you can.  I found that even though my children have been immersed in read alouds and reading all their lives, I don't like to break stories down into their parts or retell them with them so I never did those kinds of things with them.  But I can do it myself.  So now I pass that skill onto my children.  I personally just like to be immersed in a story and pull my kids along with me.  I like to talk about vocabulary and background knowledge and relate what we read to other books or events in our lives.  But simple retelling has its place.  We're all here on a homeschooling board and I believe JW and SWB are big proponents of narration, isn't that just another word for retelling and basic fact recall?  Isn't that what AR tests too?  I am not super familiar with that not having used it as a teacher, but I have heard of it and my stepdaughter used it years ago when in elementary school.

[Jennifer N.]

If anyone is interested, I found some nice retelling cards at thefirstgradeparade.blogspot.com.  Search for the retelling anchor charts.  When you click on the pictures near the bottom of the blog post, you will get a pdf of retelling cards that are Wizard of Oz themed.  I printed them a few to a page (instead of full sized) and laminated them and now have retelling cards to use with my 1st grader every now and again.  It worked out great for us because we read The Wonderful Wizard of Oz this summer so I related the cards to the book and then she retold me parts of a story she'd read for school. 

 

Of course the shoes are red in the pictures but that is okay.  We talked about differences between the book and the movie too.  We did watch the movie after we read the book this summer too.

 

With an older child, you could have them read The Wonderful Wizard of Oz on their own and then use the retelling cards afterwards.  The book is so much better than the movie!  I never bothered to read it until it was being used in a homeschooling curriculum I was exploring.  My oldest child went on to read the rest of the books in the Oz series on his own.

 

PS - I guess it'd be more accurate to call these story elements cards.

[SKL]

Hmmm... you know those text levels sound like what you might want to start with anyway to check on her comprehension.  Can you find anything she likes in those levels, even if she's rereading?

 

I should have noted - those levels are where she was getting high AR comprehension scores a year and more ago.  That was before she started skimming / speed reading.

 

I think she should be reading mostly in the 4th and 5th grade levels - but really reading, not skimming.  Instead she will try to read much higher levels and/or speed read, both of which often lead to below-target comprehension scores.

 

I think it's fine if she wants to skim 20 books or read the 6th HP book for fun, but I need to convince her that AR reading needs to be done more slowly and thoughtfully.

[OneStepAtATime]

I should have noted - those levels are where she was getting high AR comprehension scores a year and more ago.  That was before she started skimming / speed reading.

 

I think she should be reading mostly in the 4th and 5th grade levels - but really reading, not skimming.  Instead she will try to read much higher levels and/or speed read, both of which often lead to below-target comprehension scores.

 

I think it's fine if she wants to skim 20 books or read the 6th HP book for fun, but I need to convince her that AR reading needs to be done more slowly and thoughtfully.

I agree with this, but I did want to also chime in that many of my family are teachers and I have also substitute taught and I can tell you first hand that the AR tests are frequently garbage.  The questions often do not reflect true comprehension of a story so the scores are not something I would personally use to accurately judge whether a child had good comprehension skills.  Yes, your child has to try and get good scores to function within the AR system and that means she needs to read more slowly and thoughtfully, but as others have mentioned, low scores on an AR test does not even remotely reflect that she has poor comprehension.

 

For example, my SIL is a teacher.  She LOVES books.  There was a series she has read many times.  One of her students was taking an AR test on one of the books in that series.  She was looking over his shoulder and realized that she did not know the answer to the question being asked.  She reread the book and discovered the question was based on one sentence referring to a postman that actually had NOTHING to do with the story AT ALL except just in passing, as in a postman came by.  No relevance whatsoever to the story line and the postman was only mentioned in that one sentence.  Although she had read the book many times it had never registered for her that there was a postman because he had no significance to the story in any way, shape or form and was only mentioned once in a very thick, multi-chapter middle school book.  But that was what the question referred to.  Why?  I have no idea.  I could give many examples.  The director of my kids' school used to complain about the poor quality of the AR questions as well.  In fact, she felt the elementary tests were frequently pathetic.  

 

In other words, please don't judge your child's reading comprehension abilities on results of AR tests...even thought the school will.

 

Good luck, SKL.