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This is a bit more generic than I think you want, but did you notice the Navigating the Social World book Lecka linked us to a while back?  My copy came, and it has a large section on this.  It is heavy on the theory of how to approach it (steps in the thought process, what will develop), but then you're pretty good at taking a theory and applying it, meaning that might be enough for you.  Actually, I'm flipping more pages, and it really could be what you want.  Check it out.  You can get it on kindle for $18 and have it tonight.  :)

 

Navigating the Social World: A Curriculum for Individuals with Asperger's Syndrome, High-Functioning Autism and...

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Oh, I don't think it is too early.  It's just that my advice would be slightly different for an older child.  For my kids what helped at that age was to teach them how to "interview" someone very simply on their life or interests.  We did this in history at that age by interviewing the grandparents on what it was like to be a child when they were growing up.  It gave my son (who is the one dx with HFA) a specific topic to discuss.  We brainstormed some very simple questions to ask.  I think that both asked "what was your favorite toy".  I remember one of them asked "how did you keep food cold?"  That may have been my son!  Way to work in his scientific interests into something that still focused on Grandpa.  Later we "interviewed" people on their hobbies.  

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Canucks, seriously, did you see the book I linked?  Go look at it.   :)  It HAS what you're wanting.  It has this whole list of steps of how conversation skills can be developed.  Then it has checklists and tasks.  It's what you're wanting.  And it's $18 on amazon right now that you can download.  

 

rules for introductions

privacy circles

lists of topics

conversational manners

transitions

tone of voice

non-verbal clues

starting conversations

 

etc. etc. 

 

And each of these has pages and pages of steps and explanations and ways to work on it.  It's all there.  

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No specific resources to add, but I did want to say that pragmatic language use is a big part of my little one's ABA program and conversational skills definitely are being worked on. The therapist has taught DD some scripted responses and then prompts for them.

 

One that they're working on currently is being able to state, "My favorite [category] is ____" in response to the conversational partner telling his/her favorite. So if I tell DD that my favorite color is blue, then DD has to respond that her favorite color is pink.

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Something that has shown to be helpful for children on the Spectrum?

Is acting out  some 'role plays?

Where basically they take on a character, presented with some situation?

Then try to act out the way that that character would respond to the situation?

With older children, drama groups can be used.

 

But the importance of this role playing, is that it provides a practical way. To think outside of themselves, and think from the perspective of the other person.

Where the ability to understand the other persons position, is a difficulty associated with the Spectrum and Autism.

But understanding the other persons perspective, is essential to conversational skills.

Where our conversations with people, is shaped by our understanding of them, and their relationship to our self.

 

So that doing role plays with him, where you both take on different characters.

Such as different family members?

Then create different scenarios?

Where the basis of conversational skills, relies on firstly recognizing the context of the person we are conversing with?

Thinking outside of ourself?

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I know what you mean, and my son is still on prerequisite skills.  

 

Can he name a few items in a category?  Like, if you say "tell me some animals," can he say a couple?  If you say "tell me some places we can go to eat," can he say a couple?  Or whatever.  In my son's type of ABA, speech that is a result of another person's speech, and does not have a visual prompt of any kind (not even seeing it in the room), is called an intraverbal.  Then there is a developmental list type thing for intraverbals.  My son is needing direct/explicit instruction on almost every step (aka he needs ABA), though he also picks things up on his own.  

 

But anyway -- he is not at this point.  But I am told that being able to name things from memory with no visual prompts is an important prerequisite.  Being able to talk about a picture is also supposed to be helpful -- he is working on that, too.  So anyway -- he is still on prerequisite skills.

 

He is going to be taught to make comments about another person's comment, and/or to ask an appropriate follow-up question to another person's comment.  The "talking about a picture" is kind-of supposed to help with making several statements on one topic.  

 

For initiating -- my son does initiate conversation right now but not at a high level.  Right now he will point out things he sees and there is a motivation to share it with the people around him.  It is good initiation for him.  But -- since it is something he can see, it is a tact (label) instead of an intraverbal.... he is really good at tacts, and improving but still low in intraverbals.  But it is great he is saying things like "Look at ____" or "I see a ____" and it is initiating.  He cannot go much farther than that, but it is great.  He also can answer someone else saying that kind of thing, by saying "oh? I see it too."  And -- that is back-and-forth, but it is not the same kind of thing you are talking about.

 

If you do get Let Me Hear Your Voice (since I have just re-read it lol) she has a list of programs in the back, and one is a program where the first person says "I'm coloring with red" and the second person says "I'm coloring with blue."  She said it helped her kids, and easy to respond appropriately at first.  

 

And......... I just remembered the name of the book I think my therapist has said has a lot of good stuff like this in it.  It is called Teach Me Language.  I don't know exactly how she uses it -- just that she has been saying for a little while that my son will be able to start some things out of it after he gets further in intraverbals and it gets a little easier for him.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Language-Aspergers-developmental-disorders/dp/0965756505/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=04EH3Z07ZV37R56TQSYT

 

From looking at the reviews she may only use some sections of it.  But, I skimmed reviews and there are a couple saying it is good for social language.  It is expensive -- but if you skim the table of contents you might be able to google some things -- I do that all the time and a lot of the time feel like it works out well, other times not so much.  

 

But geez, why is everything $50 all the time?  I hate that.  But there are some blogs and stuff where people will give explanations a lot of times. 

 

Anyway -- it is what I have heard of.  I have never seen it, but in 6 months or a year maybe I will be able to have more of an opinion :)

 

Hmmmmm, I just skimmed through the table of contents, and I think she has talked about using it for "topical conversation" starting on page 25.  Then the next couple of sections, through page 50 maybe.  That may be all she uses this book for.  I do not know if she uses it for other things, or chooses different resources.  Or maybe she has been using this book already, I don't know.  He has worked on other things mentioned in later chapters, already.  So I don't know.  

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 one is a program where the first person says "I'm coloring with red" and the second person says "I'm coloring with blue."  She said it helped her kids, and easy to respond appropriately at first.  

 

Yes, this one of the scripts that DD's ABA therapists taught her.

 

The "Teach Me Language" book does look interesting but I have to wonder if it is worth the price premium over "Do, Watch, Listen, Say" by Kathleen Quill that Amazon recommends as a similar book. I don't have any personal experience with either, but the Quill book seems to have very positive reviews.

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Thanks to this thread, I got Let Me Hear Your Voice from the library. I started reading the first chapter but then had to stop because I got too emotional. The way the little girl Ann-Marie is described by her mom sounds very much like my youngest DD at the same age. It's too recent (we're coming up on the 3rd anniversary of her diagnosis) for me to revisit at this point. I'm going to have to skim ahead to where the mom starts talking about what the family did to help Ann-Marie.

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In terms of the pseudonym, it sounds like her husband was well-known on Wall Street and she probably didn't want to hurt his career. She also probably felt freer to express herself writing under a pseudonym because people she knows IRL wouldn't automatically know it was her. There is a lot of pressure on moms to present a 100% positive picture of family life and that can't happen in a book about ASD.

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Canucks, the lady who wrote Let Me Hear Your Voice is a woman of faith (catholic) and a *beautiful* writer.  She details her emotions, what she saw going on in her child, etc. and it's all just very touching and something people can identify with.  If you end up at a different place on the therapies she did, that's fine.  I'm finding the book wonderful even though I haven't even gotten to the chapters yet on the therapies.  It's just like being in a conversation with someone here, where you'd listen, take what you need, and leave the rest.

 

I will confess the whole idea of "curing" through behavior modification something that is genetic doesn't make sense to me.  It's like my ds' speech.  You can bring him up to speed, but he doesn't have the tools (genetically) to move forward on his own and continue to develop without more assistance.  So I do take those claims with a grain of salt and as points of data, not the absolute long-term outcome.  It's also fascinating to me how FORMATIVE all these therapies are.  When this lady was starting ABA, it was brand new, ground-breaking, unheard of.  A lot has changed since then I'm sure, with more ideas.  And if you read her arguments about what she was going through (being told it was her fault, that she was a refrigerator mother, blah blah), ABA as Lovaas prescribed would actually seem kind and a step up.  We can look at it now, 20-30 years later, with all our resources, and criticize, but at that time she had no other options.

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4evercanucks -- I agree with a lot of what you say.  Just overall it is still a book I get a lot out of.  I read it as a parent, for one thing.  

 

I do see it as a product of its time, early 1980s.  

 

My son is like her younger son.  

 

He did not have to do drills of sitting in the chair like she describes, b/c there are better techniques now -- he did VB/ABA that has got more going for it in that area.  

 

I also do not agree with her cure mentality.  

 

But -- the overall arc of her book and her views, I do love.  

 

Also, my son's pre-school used her curriculum and it is one checklist used in his elementary school.  So -- I have that positive impression. There was nothing I didn't like going on at his pre-school.  I think it is a good curriculum.  I wish they did more VB-MAPP and ABLLS, they are newer and what my son was doing in his home program, but they overlap a lot.  

 

But I do agree it has flaws.  I just like it despite the flaws, b/c of the good things in it.  

 

But, I am reading a lot of it for the parenting perspective and her construction of her identity as an autism mom.  She is one of my favorites.  But, I also am not reading it thinking my child will have the same outcome or that is a normal outcome -- her kids sound like they are very gifted to me.  My other kids do not talk like her kids talk, or have their level of interest, they were not described as gifted by their pre-school teachers, etc.  I also don't have a phd in French literature, like the author.  I have read things where people felt bad b/c they didn't have the same outcome as this woman.  I have just not felt like that, I read it 25 years after publication as one of many books, and the whole "cure" thing was already not so popular and never something I was encouraged to think about in person.  

 

But I can see preferring Temple Grandin.  I don't prefer her.  I read her books but I re-read them for information not for some visceral feeling like I understand this person.  I do get that from Maurice.  I do not get so much actionable information from her book, though.  I do more "compare and contrast" between what she does/thinks and what I do/think in those areas.  I also do like the historical perspective b/c other people have it and I do not always know I am using "loaded words" if I do not understand the history of those words.  This is a book that makes me understand why people do not like talking about cures. 

 

Temple Grandin's mother/nanny, iirc, also pulled her out of her repetitive movements to make her participate in games.  Sure they didn't do it the same way, and maybe not as extremely.  But I think that may be a false dichotomy a little bit, b/c it is not like Temple Grandin's adults-in-her-life didn't do that, too.  I think they just talk about it differently.  They may have also done it very differently.  But they still did it, I think.  I would not argue on that point, just saying, it is not like "they are bad for doing it" is a fair blanket statement, even though there is a lot of degrees and methods.  It is just -- to say you don't like one person but like another over that ----- when to me they both did it.  Maurice is contrasting herself to people who thought kids should *not be interfered with at all.*  Like -- just watch them, don't try to teach them.  That is what both she and Temple Grandin's mother were *against.*  But at the same time -- I do agree, too.

 

Edit:  To me the highlighted quote is not so different from the Temple Grandin quote that is something like "get in the kid's face" where she will say for some kids you need to "get in their face" and have them do something structured for some period of time each week (does she say 20 hours? 40 hours? I am blanking).  They are similar kinds of statements to me, even though they are different, too.  My fave book The Verbal Behavior Approach (which I am SURE is way too low-level for your son and in many ways is too low for my son now, too, but at the time was SO good and I still really like it) has a section talking about Lovaas ABA and ways the field has changed and gained new teaching practices over the past 30 years.... but I cannot blame someone for doing the best they knew to do in the early 1980s.  I do not think it is acceptable now.  But my son's IEP/program goals that came from her curriculum have all been good.  But -- in our district they do not use it as much in elementary school, though it is an available resource (as it was explained to me).  But again I do not think they use it for your son's current level and maybe never would have had him using any of its goals, depending on his specific needs/goals.  For his next IEP some of my son's goals may come from it, some may come from ABLLS, and some may come from other things or just whatever.  But anyway -- I can say, that in their use in my son's pre-school, it is NOT anything that is bad, the way it might be feared based on that quote.  It really is not.  It is still the year 2014 and people know they do not have to be so strict.  But at the time -- I think people did not know, and had to do the best they could with the information available.  It is certainly not the best information available now.  But I like it anyway, I really feel a connection to the mom.  I feel a connection to Temple Grandin's mom too.  I admire and respect Temple Grandin and I am very grateful for her information and her graciousness to share so much about her own life and help others to understand how her mind works.  But sometimes I want to read something that is more about my own parenting mission statement and anxieties.  B/c -- my beliefs will influence the actions I take.  I think she lists and organizes her different conflicting feelings so well.  To some extent I need to get myself together and then I can move forward with my kids in a more clear-headed way.  I think this is a good book for that -- how this woman starts to be more clear-headed and her path.  Not like I am copying her or agree with everything, but it is great to see how her path has been made, and what mental stumbling blocks she ran into, and how she dealt with some things that are the same things I deal with.

 

I do also come down on the side of -- why shouldn't she protect her childrens' privacy?  They are minors.  If they want to do a Raun Kaufman and write their own book some day (I just skimmed his book from the library, he is the son of the Son-Shine people), then that is their business, and they can make that choice.  But I don't think that she is obligated to put her children into the public eye like that.  I also come to this book knowing that it is associated with a curriculum resource at my son's pre-school, chosen by people I have a generally good opinion of as far as their ability to pick good things, and knowledgable.  So, I don't come to it feeling like "I want to see first-hand proof."  It is enough of a connection for me that I find her believable.  She also doesn't say anything about her kids past a very young age, there is no follow-up.  That is definitely a data point to me.  It could mean they are not doing so well, or it could mean that it is kind-of in the past for them.  I do not totally care for how Raun Kaufman seems to have, as a fairly large part of his identity, how grateful he is to his parents and how much they helped him and how lucky he is, etc etc.  I do prefer to think -- maybe it is something that is not mentioned so much, maybe it is not how the parents make their living.  I don't blame people when that is how their parents make their living, but if there is a choice to not need to do that, b/c the husband is wealthy -- I can see why someone would not want to.  I mean -- I think it would be a lot of pressure in ways for Raun Kaufman (or in my mind it might be) and can see not choosing that.  Especially b/c she describes her daughter as being fairly anxious and sensitive.  It doesn't seem like it might be a good choice for her.  Maybe she is not someone ready to be a Raun Kaufman figure and give speeches, or a Temple Grandin person who is ready to be a role model and keynote speaker and all of those things, and that is okay.  But at the same time I do think it is a valid criticism, and I notice myself and take as a data point, that there has been no revised edition with an update.... and I think it is possible she has backtracked on thinking her children are "cured" as they have gotten older.... but if that is the case, I don't think she is obligated to put that out if it might be to the detriment of her children.  I am also blanking on who wrote the preface/introduction, but I think it was someone I give some amount of credence to, and that also lessens for me the feeling of "why won't you use your real name."  

 

Separately -- I have also thought Talkability looked really good and like it might address what you are looking for, but been frustrated by the dearth of sample pages.  I have had a chance to look through More Than Words (I think -- the earlier Hanen book anyway) and I was really impressed and made some notes from it.  It is nice to hear a good impression of Teach Me Language, too, thank you.  For a lot of things I think if the therapist (since my son has a therapist) thinks something is good and appropriate, and has used it in the past, then I don't need to keep looking.  But I also like to know about things in case I think something could be better!  

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 I am also blanking on who wrote the preface/introduction, but I think it was someone I give some amount of credence to, and that also lessens for me the feeling of "why won't you use your real name."  

 

The copy I have from the library has a forward by the late Dr. Bernard Rimland, founder of the Autism Research Institute: http://www.autism.com/about_rimland

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 I also come from the perspective that I don't want to wake up one day wishing I had done things differently. This is why I try to take careful well thought out steps when it comes to my children.

 

I personally think it is inevitable to have regrets about what we did or didn't do with regards to our SN child(ren). I feel deep regret that I missed the signs of ASD in my little one when in retrospect they are so obvious. Back when she was a baby, I used to feel grateful that she was so easy and calm, especially compared to her older siblings. I would just plop her in the playpen with her toys and set to work HSing the older kids. Had I realized that she had ASD and was lost in her own little world, I would've had Early Intervention out to work with her. I would've started biomedical treatment sooner as well.

 

Hindsight is 20/20 and there wasn't any reason for me to have ASD on my radar screen. No family history of autism or Asperger's and while I do think ASD is underdiagnosed in girls, there does seem to be an actual gender difference in the prevalence. There is no point in beating myself up for the past since it's water under the bridge.

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4evercanucks -- I just like some of the parent memoirs, they do something for me.  It is not the same as wanting to provide my son with love, support, an education, a happy life, etc, and working to make those things happen for him and for our family.  It is just about me and my own thoughts.  There is a connection, but I do get something out of the memoirs, I really do feel like sometimes they can express something better than I can.  Or, I think it gives me some insight into why other people do something, that does not make as much sense to me.

 

But it is not that they directly contribute to me wanting to be the best mom for my son.

 

I can see them being unnecessary, and on top of that a negative.  

 

I have read websites/blogs before where people are very critical of parent memoirs, finding them a distraction from understanding children and helping children.  But I don't think it is a distraction for me -- if it were a distraction, I would not want it.  I do think there will be a couple of parts OhElizabeth will like.  

 

But I probably agree about a lot of parts that could be picked out of the book.  There are just enough parts I like that I am not hung up on parts that are not what I think.  Or, I will think, I feel fortunate not to live in such a nervous time with so much less known, and without being able to go to the library and check out 3 books by Temple Grandin etc.  Also in a time before the Internet, when it would be so much more difficult to find out information and meet other people.  

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  I don't judge this woman for the choices she made. Just saying that they would not be the same as the ones that I would make 

 

 

If Ann-Marie were diagnosed today it is entirely possible that Ms. Maurice would do things quite a bit differently than she chose to back then. Autism treatment has come a long, long way from Lovaas and "holding therapy" and whatnot.

 

20 years from now, people may wonder why the medical establishment lumped a whole bunch of different conditions in under the "autism" label instead of seeing them as separate things. I really think that we are on the cusp of paradigm shift in our understanding of ASD.

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