Math fail-sigh

[Catherine]

I am homeschooling only my eighth grader, who hopes to go to school for high school. Well, that may be changing, but anyway...

 

He has some learning challenges, is definitely "2E" and he has had this same experience over and over: he does a math worksheet or test alone, without my prompting, and fails totally. It just happened again and I'm feeling awful about how I handled it. I asked him to study over the weekend, and showed him the review section of his book, and the review section answers in the back. I asked him to approach me with any questions. I suspect he spent minimal time reviewing, but he says he did look at the review, but not the answers, because he did not know they were there. Doh.

 

So he got half of the exam problems wrong...and like always, there was a different reason for every single mistake, almost none of which involved actually understanding the material. Illegible answers-2 of them. Forgot how to calculate area of a square (really??), one of them. Most of the other errors were miscalculations or missed negative signs, etc. Failed to follow the directions-2 of them. He has never actually been able to perform well on a math exercise, and always for these same kinds of issues. I am starting to feel extremely discouraged about whether he'll ever figure this out. And now that puberty is happening, he is less inclined to listen to me about whether this matters, and beginning to look for alternatives...and the only alternatives to algebra involve not even going to college. ARgh. He is actually very bright, if the IQ numbers mean anything. But I am really at a loss as to how to solve this. He takes meds for ADD-and they help-he'd never have made it this far without them.

 

I think my problem is really one of finding a way to gradually remove the scaffolding instead of stopping it abruptly-can anyone with experience doing this successfully chime in? I *thought* that by directing him on how to study, I WAS gradually removing it...but it was still too fast.

[wapiti]

I would start by sitting with him while he is doing the review exercises.  Then later on, I would try not sitting with him, but still correcting the review exercises yourself.  I would not rely on him to check his own work just yet since that clearly did not work.  I would not test him on material for which he did not do the review or performed poorly on the review, as that would indicate a need for further review.

[Julie of KY]

I would sit with him and do the work together. Slowly remove yourself by still sitting there and watching him do every problem. As soon as he makes a mistake correct it. IF it is a reading directions issue, then remind him every problem to read carefully. If distributing a negative, remind him on the next several. Do lots of problems together. As you are sure he understands the problems, give him some problems to do on his own that are the same type. I'd work together to break all the bad habits before letting him loose.

[creekland]

More or less skip the review questions in the book.  Instead, try having him make up his own questions that sort of mirror each question you would have him do - give him freedom in creativity, but he must keep the concepts similar question for question.  He can vary numbers, word problems, colors used, font, illustrations, etc.  Then have him make the answer key.  YOU do his questions... ;)  You'll see how his brain is working (math-wise) and keep it fun for him in the process.  If you find mistakes (his), ask him about "your" math and see if he can figure out his own mistake.

 

I sense him seeing math as a chore - never a good thing.  ADD kids can love being allowed to be creative with a boring (to them) subject.

 

Ice cream or other fun-loving thing immediately following math review (prior to a test) can be worth it psychologically too.

[Catherine]

You know, Creekland, I have a suspicion that he would cry if I asked him to do something so complicated. Honestly. He is a very hard working kid, but just managing minimally is SO hard for him. Anything extra like what you suggest would overwhelm him-I feel sure of it.

 

But I am going to try it next time to see. I hope I am wrong!

[creekland]

You know, Creekland, I have a suspicion that he would cry if I asked him to do something so complicated. Honestly. He is a very hard working kid, but just managing minimally is SO hard for him. Anything extra like what you suggest would overwhelm him-I feel sure of it.

 

But I am going to try it next time to see. I hope I am wrong!

 

Don't try it with the whole review then - or all of the review on one day.  See how he responds to doing one or two problems on one day (nothing else planned - see how it works).  Pick a super easy one and a medium level one.

 

If it doesn't work... head a different direction.  That MIGHT entail letting his math brain mature a little bit more and slacking off on math (some).  This is what I had to do with my youngest.  The good news with him is that in latter 8th grade, he was naturally better.  Putting less pressure on him and giving his puberty challenged brain a chance to figure things out helped.

[redsquirrel]

I don't know if this will be useful, but maybe you will find a nugget of something, lol.

 

I don't have a 2E kid at all, but I do have a very smart but dreamy kid. We like to say that he visits this dimension occasionally.  I think most of the time he is off in the TARDIS. He is a kid who in 6th,and 7th would just 'forget' well used math facts, not follow instructions, make mistakes because he could not read his own writing etc.

 

So, first, I never let him work on his own. Just no. Second, I never let him do a single question without then checking the answer. Nothing was worse than having him do a whole sheet only to find he got most of them wrong, each one because of a stupid mistake. So, every time he did a problem we checked the answer together. If he got it wrong he did it again. That immediate feedback stopped a whole lot of the careless mistakes that we were seeing. He was more likely to follow directions and write more carefully etc.

 

By 8th grade he was doing much, much better. But he still likes to have instant feedback on his work

[creekland]

Second, I never let him do a single question without then checking the answer. Nothing was worse than having him do a whole sheet only to find he got most of them wrong, each one because of a stupid mistake. So, every time he did a problem we checked the answer together. If he got it wrong he did it again. That immediate feedback stopped a whole lot of the careless mistakes that we were seeing. 

 

Even with the ps kids we work with, I have them check their answers as soon as they finish a problem and if not accurate, either redo it or offer assistance.

 

It's never good when one re-enforces something incorrect.

 

Another teacher and I were literally just having a discussion two hours ago as to whether it was a good idea to put homework answers on a website for kids to be able to check.  The discussion is whether it's good so kids can check their answers as they are working or bad because kids can just copy down the answers and not work.  It's not an easy answer, but the "good" won out and the answers are going to be on there (for a few teachers) this year.  I'm in the "good" camp.  Those who would get on just to copy answers likely copy from other students too...  The benefit to the kids who use it correctly trumps the other.

[Catherine]

Well, under normal circumstances, he doesn't ever do work without immediate feedback. I don't assign independent work...he can't really do it (reading excluded, though his comprehension of independently read material is poor). This was an attempt at taking a conventional "math test" on material we had just covered. I am supposedly preparing him to attend school in a year. So I am still waiting for the leap of mastery...understanding...comprehension...anything.

 

Sorry. It has been a challenging week. I feel discouraged about his prospects.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Would it be possible to take down the number of problems on the test? Could you have the test be only one type of problem and there only be three problems on it? It would be sort of forcing success. Instead of having large amounts to review, it would be much more specific. Instead of an entire page, it would be very short. Less to tend to get flubbed up or be overwhelmed by, maybe.

 

I do not know if that would be helpful or discouraging. It seems like you could slowly increase the number of problems and the amount being tested and build confidence. With 2e it is so hard to know. One day it might work, the next not.

 

My heart goes out to you. The frustration and discouraging days are so very hard to take when they begin to pile up. I hope you find something! Good luck.

[redsquirrel]

Is he going to be attending school with an IEP? Those can have testing conditions on them.

 

My younger son had an IEP due to needing OT and PT. He still has a 505 (I think that is it) and my school liaison always writes down that he can have  scribe and untimed tests etc. He is homeschooled, but she always puts stuff like that in his document just in case he ended up in school for whatever reason.

 

That isn't the answer to your problems, I know. But, school doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation. I have a friend whose kids is 2E (at least 2, lol) and she has found the schools to be very willing to work with her. And, over the years he has grown in ways no one expected. He is in a self contained classroom but he really has exceeded what we thought was possible just a couple years ago.

 

I am sorry you are feeling discouraged. That is a hard place to be, but I am sure a not unfamiliar place to be. Best of luck to you.

:grouphug:

[creekland]

Well, under normal circumstances, he doesn't ever do work without immediate feedback. I don't assign independent work...he can't really do it (reading excluded, though his comprehension of independently read material is poor). This was an attempt at taking a conventional "math test" on material we had just covered. I am supposedly preparing him to attend school in a year. So I am still waiting for the leap of mastery...understanding...comprehension...anything.

 

Sorry. It has been a challenging week. I feel discouraged about his prospects.

 

Offering :grouphug: .  How did he do with his 6 weeks at the end of last year with tests and stuff?

 

The good thing is you have a year to prepare him.  The second good thing is there are IEPs that will allow for accommodations if he needs them.  The third good thing is he has some decent skills for success in life even if that doesn't revolve so much around academics.

 

But in the meantime :grouphug: .

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Maybe I missed this but who diagnosed the ADD?  Did they do a full work up across the board?  In other words, has he been assessed for working memory deficits, dyslexia, auditory processing issues, developmental vision issues and so on....? Maybe there is a lot more going on that needs to be addressed directly besides just ADD?  Things that, if known, and remediated or at least specifically accommodated, could help him?

[PeterPan]

Were you still wanting to talk about this?  I seldom come over here, sorry.  You should come join us on LC.   :)

 

OneStep asked if you had a full neuropsych eval or clinical psych or just a ped diagnosis and that's definitely a good question.  We only ask, because in a full psych eval (especially neuropsych) you should learn some extra things about his processing speed, etc. etc. that you won't get with a ped diagnosis.  If you have that info, maybe you'd like to come to LC and post your numbers and talk?  Or come talk without numbers.  Or just come talk.  :)

 

Seriously, this back to school gig in the fall is always rough.  They've forgotten stuff.  It sounds like you wanted a leap he wasn't ready for.  (studying for a test, blah blah)  I'd be MUCH less concerned about learning independently than I would about the quality and consistency of his thought process.  I'm not sure how you work, but if he'll work with you I'd get out the whiteboard and do the math together, every single day, all the way.  Or do most of the math together and then leave him "homework" of 10-15 problems.  That way he gets some variety in how you're working together and the chance to grow in self-monitoring without it being sink/swim.

 

Does he feel well on his meds?  

 

Have you done any sort of interventions?  Interactive metronome, digit spans, Cogmed, that kind of thing?  Algebra especially is such a mess, needing tons of working memory to hold their thoughts.  That's one of the good things the whiteboard does, giving you some external RAM.  

 

It's easy to assume errors are carelessness, but sometimes it means they need more practice.  Depends on the situation, but that's what it can mean.  He may benefit from a more spiral curriculum to let him get some of the skills faster and more automatic.  He may benefit from backing up and redoing some lessons using that spiral curriculum.  Creekland used TT and she's the reason we're using it.   :D  My dd benefits from the spiral.  I avoided it way too long thanks to the snobbery of the boards.  If I had tons of time, I'd do my ideal, which is add in the BJU word problems and C level stuff.  We just don't seem to be able to get it all done, sigh.  We did it for a while and it was a great combo.  Just can't keep it up, not with the ds with more serious problems and the other things dd needs, sigh.  Can't do it all. But when you have just one, seriously that to me is the idea combo: spiral on the computer and challenging problems with Mom.  For the computer stuff, I have a draconian 97% requirement.  I delete lessons where she allows herself to go forward with less.  

 

[Catherine]

Yes, he's had a complete neuropsych evaluation, when he was 8. He has VERY slow processing...there is a 95 percentile gap between his processing speed and his IQ. So I know that explains a lot. Low working memory too-about 10th percentile for his age, I think. So I know that explains a lot of this. He presents as a bright kid...I know this because whenever I've mentioned our struggling to people who know him in RL, they frankly don't believe me. One reason I'm discouraging him from going to brick and mortar HS is because I am pretty sure we would have a big fight over accomodations and I'm not feeling strong enough to do that right now. Have some BTDT experience in this area...

 

What is far less clear to me is whether there is any remediation for any of this. I thought he was dyslexic when he was younger because he couldn't spell ANYTHING (honestly-even his own name) and he could not read fluently, despite having really excellent decoding. There were other issues too and I ended up taking him to a developmental optometrist after a screening found he had no depth perception or tracking. So the VT helped a lot with his reading fluency, his overall co-ordination, his issues with running into things and falling off things. And those gains have totally "stuck".

 

I'm interested in knowing about the evidence for cogmed, interactive metronome, etc. I've checked out their sites and there is no real scientific data, or, nothing that is not anecdotal. Frankly, I'm not sure I'm willing to invest thousands if there's little assurance it will help. I tried Visualizing and Verbalizing and really, it was like torture and we saw no benefit. (I'm selling off my workbooks if anyone is interested!).

 

Yes, we had a particularly long gap this year, since the end of April with zero real academics. I have been careful to avoid breaks like this in the past because of the aftermath...ugh. So yes, some of this is getting back up to speed. And I am very aware of his learning style and am happy with our materials. So I'm not right now looking for different curriculum (though sound off if you have good ideas). My biggest goal right now is to begin transitioning him to more independent academic work, teaching study skills, organizational strategies.

 

He feels great on his meds. In fact he avoids ever missing them if possible. Whenever I've offered him the option to not take them on weekends or in the summer, he always refuses. They help him to function socially a lot.

 

Elizabeth, what are you talking about when you refer to "spiral on the computer"?

[PeterPan]

Ok, a few things.  Spiral on the computer?  Teaching Textbooks.  :)  There are probably more options.

 

I think you're already figuring out you may have too many new steps at once and may need to scaffold a bit.

 

Have you considered fresh evals?  If his last were at 8, he may add a label or you may get more clarity you didn't at that time.  

 

Cogmed has research and is the only one with serious data.  The stats I saw weren't impressive enough to motivate me to pay the $$$$$$$$$$$, but I may have misunderstood them.  We've had ladies on LC whose kids were in single digits for processing speed who got bumps up to say 30th%ile on processing speed using Interactive Metronome.  Now 35th is where my kid is, and that's a pain in the butt.  But to go from single digits to 30th, that's like getting a new child!!  And here's the kicker.  Now with the iPad you have ways to do metronome work yourself at home FOR FREE!!!  Some of my dd's best breakthroughs came after doing Heathermomster's metronome instructions.  We did her instructions and as dd could handle those we started adding in digit spans using the auditory working memory workbook (Cusamano).  So she had distractions (kid running around, me talking to her), motor planning (the motions Heather lists), EF (tick tock).  It's everything coming together that they need to come together to do basic acts of writing, etc.  That's when my dd's writing took off.  And for the price (FREE), wow can't beat it!  I'm sure IM with a certified whatever is better, but free was my price point and free got us what we needed.  You really can't go wrong trying it.

 

I don't know how to help you on the school work thing.  You're a person of strong mind (have noticed that in your posts :)  ) and you seem pretty set on that.  I know it doesn't work in our house.  Personalities, temperaments, gender differences, maybe you'll get it to work for you.  Around here what works is lots of structure and scaffolding, not big leaps.  

 

You know the other thing that has been golden here, that you might talk with him about, is outsourcing.  Last year (9th) dd did one outsourced class (La Clase Divertide spanish).  She LOVED it.  Worked her butt off, but loved it.  She's learning those skills and being independent, but it's not everything, sink/swim.  It's one subject added each year, kwim?  This year (10th), she has AP Human Geography and continues the spanish, both online.  You might talk with your ds and find that some of his goals with wanting to go to school (peer challenge, outside validation, better academics, etc.) could be as well met with *online* classes.