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Help me sort out which dyslexia reading program to use


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Hello,

 

Could you please help me?  I am trying to figure out the ideal dyslexia remediation reading program to use with my child.  I have combed through these boards reading about all sorts of programs.  I am so grateful I learned about so many here, it gave me a great starting point to go exploring.  However, after reading about them, trying out samples with my child, etc-- I still have no idea!  I know I want something scripted because I don't want to have to do any training.  I am BEAT and need the handholding now.

 

I thought for sure anything with games since my child has ADHD.  Then we tried the samples for All About Reading.  What a disaster!  The games made him fool around and act silly, he didn't play them properly at all but got distracted by, for example, opening and shutting a play paper door that was supposed to be for open and closed syllables.  And for a short list of words, it's a heck of a lot faster to just read them and get them out of the way than to feed them through a complex paper system to feed an anteater, which he wasn't enthused about at all.  Honestly, I would say that games are OUT for his dyslexia program.  So short daily bursts of something dry and serious would be better.  In addition, I just was not impressed with how UN-RIGOROUS AAR felt.  Like it just introduced a huge concept in one chapter and then moved on after a few games.  

 

We have been doing Logic of English cursive, just to test out the Logic of English flavor.  It is taking sooooo long-- supposedly he should be able to learn all the lower case letters within a couple weeks.  What a joke.  It makes me worry that the entire program is not developed for his type of complex dyslexia/dysgraphia weaknesses.  I also noticed in some Logic of English Foundations samples that those kinds of games would definitely be out, too-- he would get carried away with things like "buzzing" me, and turn them into silliness and craziness.  We don't have time for that distraction when I want to keep his remediation time to 20 solid minutes of productivity.

 

He really hates slow explanations.  Actually-- he hates any explanations.  He has no patience for them at all!  He loves listening to a lecture about science, but start blabbing about arbitrary abstract reading rules, and he is off in outer space.  So I thought maybe the Logic of English Essentials, because it asks the child to figure out the spelling rules?  I think he'd like that A LOT, because his brain would be activated if he has to figure out a puzzle.  But that seems to be a very small part of Logic of English.  I'm confused.

 

Since I am concerned I will end up chasing around bad matches, it seems smart to just start with the supposed master of all remediation-- Barton.  But I cannot see him actually paying attention to all that explanation in Barton?  He NEVER listens to explanations of things, not for rules of board games, not for instructions I give him on what to do, etc.  Even in computer programs, he skips listening to explanation and then just tries to figure it out during play.  He is not a "read the manual" type.  But Barton is like one huge fat king of all manuals.  I actually thought her tiles seemed like so much fun the first time i saw them a few months ago.  I was very excited about it and showed my son.  He said he HATED the idea of tiles, it shocked me and made me think Barton won't work.

 

But can any OG reading method work for him?  I CANNOT see him memorizing a huge bunch of spelling/reading rules.  And then knowing when to apply them. Maybe I have him wrong, but it does not seem to be his style!  I think a ton of rules would be overkill.  

 

Still, he cannot go basically NO rules.  We tried some Seeing Stars, and it was soooo boring for him, but apart from that, it didn't have many rules at all, way too un-systematic for him!  I think he'd do best with a subset of the most important rules, and then just learning patterns or memorizing exceptions for the rest.  He has had (relatively) no problem with sight words, after all, once his visual memory "woke up" (before this developmental leap, he literally could not memorize sight words, period).  

 

Well, he totally bombed the Barton screening test the other day, so I'm going to have to hit hard on the auditory discrimination practice.  But after that gets under control (and actually, simultaneously)... I wonder what program could work best for him?

 

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Hello,

 

Could you please help me?  I am trying to figure out the ideal dyslexia remediation reading program to use with my child.  I have combed through these boards reading about all sorts of programs.  I am so grateful I learned about so many here, it gave me a great starting point to go exploring.  However, after reading about them, trying out samples with my child, etc-- I still have no idea!  I know I want something scripted because I don't want to have to do any training.  I am BEAT and need the handholding now.

 

I thought for sure anything with games since my child has ADHD.  Then we tried the samples for All About Reading.  What a disaster!  The games made him fool around and act silly, he didn't play them properly at all but got distracted by, for example, opening and shutting a play paper door that was supposed to be for open and closed syllables.  And for a short list of words, it's a heck of a lot faster to just read them and get them out of the way than to feed them through a complex paper system to feed an anteater, which he wasn't enthused about at all.  Honestly, I would say that games are OUT for his dyslexia program.  So short daily bursts of something dry and serious would be better.  In addition, I just was not impressed with how UN-RIGOROUS AAR felt.  Like it just introduced a huge concept in one chapter and then moved on after a few games.  

 

We have been doing Logic of English cursive, just to test out the Logic of English flavor.  It is taking sooooo long-- supposedly he should be able to learn all the lower case letters within a couple weeks.  What a joke.  It makes me worry that the entire program is not developed for his type of complex dyslexia/dysgraphia weaknesses.  I also noticed in some Logic of English Foundations samples that those kinds of games would definitely be out, too-- he would get carried away with things like "buzzing" me, and turn them into silliness and craziness.  We don't have time for that distraction when I want to keep his remediation time to 20 solid minutes of productivity.

 

He really hates slow explanations.  Actually-- he hates any explanations.  He has no patience for them at all!  He loves listening to a lecture about science, but start blabbing about arbitrary abstract reading rules, and he is off in outer space.  So I thought maybe the Logic of English Essentials, because it asks the child to figure out the spelling rules?  I think he'd like that A LOT, because his brain would be activated if he has to figure out a puzzle.  But that seems to be a very small part of Logic of English.  I'm confused.

 

Since I am concerned I will end up chasing around bad matches, it seems smart to just start with the supposed master of all remediation-- Barton.  But I cannot see him actually paying attention to all that explanation in Barton?  He NEVER listens to explanations of things, not for rules of board games, not for instructions I give him on what to do, etc.  Even in computer programs, he skips listening to explanation and then just tries to figure it out during play.  He is not a "read the manual" type.  But Barton is like one huge fat king of all manuals.  I actually thought her tiles seemed like so much fun the first time i saw them a few months ago.  I was very excited about it and showed my son.  He said he HATED the idea of tiles, it shocked me and made me think Barton won't work.

 

But can any OG reading method work for him?  I CANNOT see him memorizing a huge bunch of spelling/reading rules.  And then knowing when to apply them. Maybe I have him wrong, but it does not seem to be his style!  I think a ton of rules would be overkill.  

 

Still, he cannot go basically NO rules.  We tried some Seeing Stars, and it was soooo boring for him, but apart from that, it didn't have many rules at all, way too un-systematic for him!  I think he'd do best with a subset of the most important rules, and then just learning patterns or memorizing exceptions for the rest.  He has had (relatively) no problem with sight words, after all, once his visual memory "woke up" (before this developmental leap, he literally could not memorize sight words, period).  

 

Well, he totally bombed the Barton screening test the other day, so I'm going to have to hit hard on the auditory discrimination practice.  But after that gets under control (and actually, simultaneously)... I wonder what program could work best for him?

Maybe you have posted this elsewhere and I am not recalling so if that is true please accept my apologies.  Brain a bit foggy today.  What evaluations has he had?  And when you say he bombed the Barton screening, which sections and were there any distractions while he was taking it?  Was he well rested?  Did you do the tutor screening first?  If so, how did you do?

 

If he bombed the Barton screening and he really hates listening to instructions he may very well have Auditory processing issues that would make an OG based program problematic until that is addressed directly.  But you need solid answers on where his strengths and weaknesses lie before being able to determine which programs might possibly be effective (and even that is no guarantee, but it gives you a better chance of knowing where to leap, KWIM?).

 

I know this is frustrating.   :grouphug:

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Sorry to repeat OneStep, but I agree.  Has he had a formal psych eval to get the dyslexia diagnosed?  And did they screen for APD?  And did they run a CTOPP?  If you're assuming it just off the Barton screening test, you could be seeing the working memory component of his adhd and not a dyslexia problem.

 

You have to back up.

 

You need to build phonemic awareness.  That's the ability to hear sounds.

 

You need to work on his executive function skills (working memory, etc.). 

 

Some programs will work on both at the same time.  Without the ability to hear sounds and the ability to hold several sounds or letters in his head without dropping them, he's toast.  So that's where you start.

 

Thing is, some of these programs are so expensive, it's really good to slow down and know exactly what you've got going on before you invest, kwim?  We're not trying to doubt you or what you're saying you're seeing, just trying to help.  You could fail the Barton pretest due to working memory issues. 

 

Btw, have you done a learning styles profile?  HSBC used to have one on special sometimes for $5.  You can't ask a 7 yo what he wants, because he doesn't know.  My ds is VERY self-determinant, but still I don't ask him how he wants to learn to read, mercy.  You need to learn his learning style.  My ds tests (according to the SLP, who ran it with some testing she was doing) as dominantly kinesthetic.  So for him, movement while he's learning is essential and makes things stick.  That would be the cheapest, easiest, first thing for you to sort out to help yourself not make mistakes.  Figure out whether he's a kinesthetic learner, visual, auditory, whatever.

 

There's some possibility that your ds is a kinesthetic learner.  If he is, you might like Rocket Phonics.  It's open and go, very kinesthetic.  I'm not sure it's appropriate for the most severe dyslexia, but Guffanti's wife wrote it and Guffanti himself is dyslexic.  I agree with you that something that is relying on them to process is not going to work well when their processing speed is so low.  They need to practice things to automaticity.  SWR tells you to do that, the Eides (of Dyslexic Advantage) say to do that, everyone says to do that.  I agree LOE is not idea for severe dyslexia and the lady who wrote it doesn't have a ton of experience tutoring dyslexics.  LOE is meant for schools and typical children.  It is explicit enough that it will work out well for mild stragglers.

 

You seem very stressed.  You've talked about meds.  It is true that meds are going to help some kids get there.  I go back to that earlier question though, has he had a full psych eval to see what's going on?  And what did the psych recommend?  (I know, some of them seem just about worthless for the feedback they give!)  

 

Barton recommends LIPS, and it will be great for a kinesthetic learner.  You also could do Earobics for the phonemic awareness and play games like A Fistfull of Coins to work on working memory.  If you really feel uncomfortable doing this and have the labels to know exactly what's going on, you might want to go hire a tutor and be done with it. Some people are more comfortable outsourcing this.  The only thing that matters is that it gets DONE, not who does it.

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Hello ladies!  Just wanted to update with some details.  I may delete in a bit due to PRIVACY reasons, so please do NOT QUOTE this message, thanks.

  • A Slingerland tutor said the dyslexia and dysgraphia through a Slingerland screening test.  (His dad reads slowly so I'm not surprised and have no reason to believe this is inaccurate.)
  • An educational therapist agrees with dyslexia and said extremely SLOW rapid automatic naming skills through testing.
  • A screening for doing (i forget what it's called-- something like cogmed) said NORMAL processing speed and NORMAL working memory and a ton of strengths, but poor visual processing and phonemic awareness (whatever they called it).
  • My working with him says his learning strength is auditory.  He can listen to long audio CDs and learn a ton.  He moves a lot due to ADHD but he doesn't seem to LEARN through movement.  
  • My Barton screening said poor Part C (the auditory discrimination/memory).  Part B was also bad (syllable counting) but after only a few minutes of coaching, i repeated and he aced it.
  • The child psych department said ADHD.  This was diagnosed very recently.  Through observation and forms from parents and teacher.  (Other professionals have not evaluated, and guessed ADHD from observation.)
  • The dev opt said visual processing delays.  (He did a lot of visual therapy by now but his case is very stubborn to improve.)
  • A Masgutova specialist said retained infant reflexes.  (Again, stubborn.)

 

No full comprehensive one-place eval.  I'm waiting for a new insurance to kick in Jan 1.  We did testing with the school district a couple years ago.  They did IQ test and said very high in some subtests, low average in others.  What stood out was that he totally FAILED a subtest where they had him repeat hand movements in an order.  (No sign language for this guy.)  He did poorly in visual processing related tasks like block formations.  He was great at verbal reasoning stuff and conceptual reasoning.  He is very good at reasoning in general.

 

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It sounds to me like you are going to have to address the ADHD somehow to get results with any program. Barton is MUCH slower than AAR/AAS and it needs to be. These kids have to move at that pace to learn the skills they are missing. If your ds can't sit still and take AAR seriously, he is really going to struggle with Barton. LOE moves very fast, too fast IMHO for a dyslexic. It was written for neurotypical kids. I know remediation is not fun but dyslexics NEED these skills or they can't move forward with reading. And no dyslexic program is going to seem rigorous. You can't have rigor without basic skills in place, which is what the dyslexic programs are teaching. I would consider what it will take to address the ADHD so that you can work on the phonemic skills he needs and move forward with a program from there.

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Building on what FP said, I'm going to suggest that what looks like adhd could be, yes, but could also be symptoms of the retained primitive reflexes. You've done OT for them?  Maybe google online the names of the particular reflexes and start doing the interventions for them yourself?  I haven't dealt with them, but I think it's a long-term thing, not a one week and done.  You could start now and work on them till Jan and maybe have some progress.  There are some retained primitive reflexes that can cause them to wiggle in their seats, etc.

 

That imitation of the hand movements is an indication of praxis.  I suppose it could also be sequencing.  My ds has sequencing issues but does *not* appear to have global praxis.  He can imitate.  Dd does not appear to have sequencing issues but cannot imitate, and the OT said it was praxis.  Yes, my head is swirling.

 

You might work on working memory anyway, just throwing it in for 5 minutes as part of your day. (digit spans, something simple)  That "normal" range could be low ball for him, and a bit of work on it never hurts. It will make it easier when he has to hold all those sounds in his head and correlate them to the written. Yeah, they want to do VT testing on my ds too for the visual processing stuff, even though I'm pretty sure it's dyslexia and not likely to respond.  After I get his baseline psych testing, I plan to ramp up with work on visual processing to see if it can budge.  I just can't pay $70+ a session for it, not when the possibility is iffy.  I figure anything I do is the right price point, free.

 

Did you call Barton and talk with her about what to do?  I did and she was VERY helpful and nice to me.  I ended up getting LIPS, which has been good for us (though a bit dicy and needing modification because of his speech problems).  I've got Barton level 1 waiting in the wings to try next.  Seems to me, with what you've listed, you've got every indication of dyslexia.  You might as well go all the way for the big guns (Barton, Wilson, Slingerland, whatever).  It's more a question of whether you want to teach it or outsource.  If you outsource, the tutor could probably do the phonemic awareness work he needs too.  If you're doing it yourself, then you'll want something to build that foundation till he passes the pre-test and is ready to go into Barton.  Barton is totally scripted, basically about as open and go as you can get.

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Thanks for the wakeup calls, ladies!  You have helped me decide to do Barton (after he can pass the screening for Barton, that is).  

 

I looked up his testing papers to take another look.  According to the PACE screening, his working memory is THREE YEARS AHEAD!  So unusual, considering the constellation of weaknesses he has.  I mean i keep reading about kids with his issues also having working memory deficits, actually that seeming to be their primary obstacle.  Still, this same test also said his processing speed was normal, but I don't undrestand that as he is soooo slooooww at everything so i'm convinced his processing is slow.  Anyway, I believe that test result for working memory is accurate because I have seen it in action.  Still, i also saw that he messed up some questions on part C of barton screening because after setting the tiles up correctly, he plumb forgot the original series of sound order and read them back wrong.  So maybe his working memory is very strong unless you confuse him with more tasks...

 

Ugh, I am so tired of trying to work on those retained primitive reflexes.  He hates doing the work to integrate them.   We did the movement therapies hard core to try to get them to budge.  We even worked for 1-2 hours a day for a month to see if that could budge them.  What I want is some playground equipment that works on them :)

 

Oh bother.  So he has dyspraxia, too.  Well, I'm glad you pointed that out because I wasn't quite comfortable with all his current working diagnoses.  ADHD, dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia.  It didn't seem complete to describe the full picture.  But now reading about dyspraxia, that seems to complete the picture.  And although I was initially saddened to think-- ugh, another problem!-- i quickly felt better because now there aren't really any more uncomfortable UNKNOWNS.  I think he has a mild case, isolated, not the full blown type.  Definitely he is slumping around and leaning on his arm anytime he does paper work, etc, weak core, etc., tries eating with his hands, knocking things over all the time, uncoordinated body (yet he managed to figure out how to compensate and can play and run fast), etc.  Although he doesn't have dyspraxia of the speech in normal talking, i was thinking he had a speech disorder because when he READS he cannot spit out the right thing, like sounds get *stuck* in his mouth, he has to almost stutter sometimes to finally be able to spit out the right sound.  

 

So with praxis issues... will "air writing" and other types of large motor movements really help with remediating dyslexia?  I always thought it was kind of pointless because that pathway doesn't seem to be a strength, so inputing information through that path won't really help the brain much.  Am I missing something?

 

Is it foolish of me to switch to cursive right now?  He is comfortable with print at this point.  His handwriting is horrendous.  After intensive writing this summer, daily packet of work (as an experiment to see if my mom is right that he just needs tons of practice-- indeed, he CAN work hard!!  But if you add in games into learning, he forgets about the hard work and gets silly), he still writes just as poorly, no spacing, impossible to decipher, misformed letters, ignoring lines, etc.  Still, he likes to add on labels to his drawings, some letters into made-up words, and this just started recently.  It makes me so happy to see him trying to spell and so interested in print!!!!!!  So he clearly is making some brain progress with writing.  At this point he will still do things like randomly make a "c" backwards (although he hasn't done that for, what, a year?) and every single time he writes his name he pauses for each letter to remember where to start the letter and how to form it.  (He has the audio sequence memorized, i hear him saying the letters.)  But with his level of dysgraphia/dyspraxia/whatever-it-is, if he's gotten this far is it a bad idea to push him into cursive?  I know this Educational Therapist who tested him doesn't even think we should do writing at all, she suggests hard core reading work and just use a computer for typing eventually.  From what she's seen of him she thinks working on writing is a waste of time due to limited potential.  I read about how cursive writing develops the brain, though, so i'm still thinking it might be good to push on it.  ???

 

 

 

Building on what FP said, I'm going to suggest that what looks like adhd could be, yes, but could also be symptoms of the retained primitive reflexes. You've done OT for them?  Maybe google online the names of the particular reflexes and start doing the interventions for them yourself?  I haven't dealt with them, but I think it's a long-term thing, not a one week and done.  You could start now and work on them till Jan and maybe have some progress.  There are some retained primitive reflexes that can cause them to wiggle in their seats, etc.

 

That imitation of the hand movements is an indication of praxis.  I suppose it could also be sequencing.  My ds has sequencing issues but does *not* appear to have global praxis.  He can imitate.  Dd does not appear to have sequencing issues but cannot imitate, and the OT said it was praxis.  Yes, my head is swirling.

 

You might work on working memory anyway, just throwing it in for 5 minutes as part of your day. (digit spans, something simple)  That "normal" range could be low ball for him, and a bit of work on it never hurts. It will make it easier when he has to hold all those sounds in his head and correlate them to the written. Yeah, they want to do VT testing on my ds too for the visual processing stuff, even though I'm pretty sure it's dyslexia and not likely to respond.  After I get his baseline psych testing, I plan to ramp up with work on visual processing to see if it can budge.  I just can't pay $70+ a session for it, not when the possibility is iffy.  I figure anything I do is the right price point, free.

 

Did you call Barton and talk with her about what to do?  I did and she was VERY helpful and nice to me.  I ended up getting LIPS, which has been good for us (though a bit dicy and needing modification because of his speech problems).  I've got Barton level 1 waiting in the wings to try next.  Seems to me, with what you've listed, you've got every indication of dyslexia.  You might as well go all the way for the big guns (Barton, Wilson, Slingerland, whatever).  It's more a question of whether you want to teach it or outsource.  If you outsource, the tutor could probably do the phonemic awareness work he needs too.  If you're doing it yourself, then you'll want something to build that foundation till he passes the pre-test and is ready to go into Barton.  Barton is totally scripted, basically about as open and go as you can get.

 

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Oh, another point I forgot to address.  About his listening skills... I really think it is just impatience / ADHD brain!  I've had him do samples of computer/ipad programs for auditory stuff like directions for a couple years now and he always does so well.  Just tonight i had him do the trial of HearBuilders.  He aced the audio directions, it was so easy for him to listen to them and select the right stuff, in various types of related games of various difficulty.  Now in real life he wouldn't do so well because he wouldn't be motivated to pay close attention to the instructions, it would be too boring for him.  And in hearbuilders he couldn't tell you what a word was if you removed the initial sound... so he does have auditory related weaknesses, but it seems to be isolated to phonological awareness type stuff.

 

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On my phone here, but seems go me I wouldn't give up entirely on writing until you've done an OT- designed program like HWT or EZWrite. But that doesn't mean you have to connect his learning to the writing either. Sounds like you need more OT. And yes the reflexes can take a long time to integrate. Think little efforts daily.

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A couple of things -- My son has dyspraxia, but he is also a competitive gymnast, so it can definitely be an issue even if you think his motor issues are on the milder side. Coordination issues can be helped by OT. The things you say about your son sound like sensory issues to me (DS also has SPD, so we have a lot of experience with that here).

 

About cursive -- I can't speak for what is right for your son, but DS was diagnosed with dysgraphia, and the NP specifically recommended cursive for him.

 

Not to sound like a broken record, but all of these things can be helped by OT.

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Among what you check out, look at www.highnoonbooks.com reading intervention program. It is what worked for my ds and does not depend on memorizing rules. Instead, a few sight words, plus types of words (eg CVC, but at first broken down into individual short vowels one at a time) get practiced until fluent, and as soon as possible in the context of real reading passages. The sound out chapter books that go with it help build the needed fluency. 7 is about the youngest age I'd go with for this program.  (eta, it is fully scripted in the Teacher Guide--I got a whole set with teacher guide, student book, student workbook, and chapter books...we did not follow every bit of the script bc my son could not get some the sounds part, but he learned to read fluently using the programs main features nonetheless. It is a basic, rigorous program, not games oriented, though the workbooks that go with the chapter books are a bit more fun, perhaps than some other parts. And when he read his first sound out book successfully, that was a big happy fun highlight!)  My ds sounds very similar to yours in personality type, so what worked well for him might also fit yours well. It certainly fits all the points you mentioned wanting.  

 

 

My ds basically cannot do cursive at age 12--or just barely can. He worked at it for 2 years, both at home and with outside help, and I decided it was not worth the time and energy. Typing is/was more useful. Now he has gone back to a bit of cursive, and it seems much more useful than it did when he was younger. 

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For cursive, you might start him on something like the New American Cursive program from Memoria Press, along with the Start Write software (REALLY helpful) and just have him practice maybe 10 minutes a day.  They have a version for older students.  But he will not be fluent overnight so expecting any kind of significant output is a waste of time until there is automaticity, which may or may not be achievable, at least legibly.   In the meantime, I agree with OT and I also encourage a typing program (if he isn't typing already).  But expecting a lot of output from typing when it isn't fluent yet will also be problematic.  He needs daily practice but I wouldn't overload him.  For main output while he tries to attain fluency with typing/cursive I agree with using software like Dragon Naturally Speaking, Inspiration, Ginger, etc.

 

And I agree with Pen, also look at the High Noon program before committing to Barton.  I am using Barton and I love it (not a perfect program but none are).  DD is doing great with Barton, even though we have had to slow way down again in Level 4.  DS did really well for a bit but is struggling now.  I am considering the possibility of switching him to High Noon, depending on how things go over the next month with Level 4.

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