The Brainy Bunch book - College by 12 family

[birchbark]

Has anyone else read the Harding’s book? I recently got it through ILL and just finished it while on vacation. There were a couple threads on this family last year which I read at that time, and I also was able to hear them speak at a conference.

 

This past winter I was visiting a HSing friend who said (re: the Hardings), “I don’t understand HOW they do it!†I answered, “Well, I heard them speak and I still don’t!†There was a lot of inspiration and stories but not a lot of practical how-to.  I was reminded as I looked back through the threads that people on these forums were also mystified (as well as skeptical). So I requested their book when the library got it, hoping to clear up some of the fog and make a better judgment on their methods.

 

The book itself is heavy on the stories of their graduates. I think they intend their experiences to instruct their audience. Again, not a lot of practical advice, but I was forewarned of this by Amazon reviewers. :)  After reading it, this is what I was able to piece together:

 

How they do it:

The main thing they do that is different from your average homeschooler is that they accelerate math. Algebra is begun at age 8. They school year-round, and there was a mention of doing two lessons a day. It sounds like the dad was pretty involved in their math instruction. He said at one point that he believed math was the door to opportunity, and I think he was right, at least for their family goals.

 

Another thing they did was that they put the children right into high-school-level texts for content subjects, and began awarding them credit. Sometimes even college-level texts were used. The children were usually required to write a paper on what they read. They did not do labs.

 

Then they began taking the SAT/ACT at ages 10-12.

 

A couple other things about their school that were interesting: they do not do a formal writing program nor a lot of formal grammar. They do require writing on a daily basis however. And then lots of reading. Along with the math emphasis, it reminded me a lot of the Robinson approach.

 

The rest of the picture:

As I read their stories things seemed to come together to paint a picture of a rather frenetic family life. Consider: they had 10 kids, were homeschooling, both dad and mom working at times, dad working on his own advanced degrees, and the necessity of transporting various children in various directions on a regular basis. Year round. The mom said more than once that one of the reasons to homeschool was to spend more time with your children, but after reading their stories, I had my doubts that they actually did!

 

I also got the feeling that both parents (and maybe esp. the mom, as she authored most of the book) had driving, determined personalities. And that a college education was very, very important to them. The mom was exceptionally proactive in seeking opportunities and loopholes for the kids. And she sacrificed big time. She talked of packing up all her younger children, while pregnant, and keeping them occupied on the college campus so she could accompany a young student to their class.

 

The parents were also willing to sacrifice some ideals that would be hard for other parents to give up. For instance, at one point they left their teen students at college in CA when their family moved to another state.

 

So I learned that their method (overall) was not for me or my family. I could not hack such an intense lifestyle. I value a slower approach to education. I don’t want to spend hours out of the home chauffeuring on a daily basis while I have younger ones to teach. We don’t have any colleges down the road, and DH isn’t interested in moving anytime soon. (I actually asked him if he’d be willing!)

 

I did appreciate the upbeat, optimistic tone of the book toward the heavier subjects of higher education and careers and life in general. They definitely believe in a “you-can-do-it†perspective. And it encouraged me to look at our educational path and consider where we can be more efficient. I realized anew that we do not need to follow the traditional, public-school path as homeschoolers.

 

There were other objections to the Harding’s approach on last year’s threads that are worth considering, but I mainly wanted to post on my reading of their book and what I discovered about their methods.

[Moxie]

I don't get it. College at 12, why?? So you can join the workforce at 16??

[Lang Syne Boardie]

So learning stages are total crap, then? I know I saw my boys hit the logic and then the rhetoric stage, as part of normal development. Academically, the flow happened as I expected, partially due to human maturity and partially due to my preparing them for the next stage. Algebra for all kids at 8? No. A few early bloomers being ready at 11? Yes.

I would really like to see papers on college texts written by 9-10yo's, and I'd like to hear more about science credits with no labs.

 

I'm happy for every family full of learning, growing, and achieving people, but I tend to think this story has more to do with watered-down college expectations than with highly accelerated and advanced wunderkind. Bright, definitely. Driven parents, obviously. But geniuses?

[Ad astra]

I remember I read the article about this family and watched their interview in other thread. I was immediately turned off by the fact that every single one of their 10 kids is/was on the exact same track of radical acceleration, which indicates that it was a strict parent-led approach, and all kids except for one (or two) went to sub-par private colleges that basically accept anyone. I'm glad they are happy with their achievements but that's certainly not what I'd want for both of my kids. Also, in the video the dad confidently argued anyone could do it--sending kids to college by 12--and advertised their consulting(?) website at the end of the interview. This made me frown. 

[Moxie]

Yeah, I wonder if this started as a book idea?? "If we can get Jr. to college by 12, we can write a book about it and quit work!!"

[Murphy101]

I think it's fabulous and I wish them and anyone else who wants to do it all the best.

 

Far be it from me to be critical of someone for giving too much education and ambition to their kids.

 

I find it interesting even if it's not a methodology I'm personally going to take up as a whole.

 

Her family seems happy enough and that's good enough for me.

[elegantlion]

I see value in acceleration for the right student - as we have examples of that on this board. However, I don't think across the board it's the right choice or answer for every student. Plus, it's outright not going to work for every student. At age 10, my son's abilities spanned about 5 grade levels. 

 

Early education to what end? For my son, his goals (notice - his goals not mine) include higher education at a more specialized level than my open enrollment university provides. I have no desire to sit in my son's class as a babysitter. Heck, I'm having enough issue sitting in my own college level classes. 

 

 

 

 

[Hunter]

Not all kids can do that. Not all kids should do that. It's ONE way to do things. The book and family appear to be marketing a method and I don't trust their advise or believe everything they say. If you can glean an idea or two from an ILL copy–great. 

 

My non-gifted but socially precocious kid accelerated to subpar. It worked for him. His gifted brother started college later, and still ended out at subpar, because of finances, a don't-care attitude, and social immaturity. I'm not against acceleration to subpar for some kids. I'm not for it as a default either. I think it's entirely unnecessary and developmentally inappropriate in most cases.

[Jenny in Florida]

I don't get it. College at 12, why?? So you can join the workforce at 16??

 

For some kids who plan on careers that require lengthy post-graduate work, early college can be a nice head start. My daughter got her degree through a residential early college program, which she entered at age 12. The majority of the young women with whom she graduated were on their way to grad schools, mostly in science and medicine. Others took some time off after earning their bachelors degrees and worked before grad school or are planning on multiple post-grad stuff. 

 

One of my daughter's besties, for example, has taken off the last two years to work and plans to complete an MBA before applying to med schools. Her early start (I think she was 14 when she entered the EC program) means she can afford to take a couple of "detours" and still enter med school at a very typical age.

 

My own daughter works in a field that doesn't require a post-graduate degree. However, early college for her means that she had a couple of years to live at home and work and save up a nest egg to make her nearly life-long dream of moving to NYC a reality when she was 19. 

 

Plus, for some kids, the educational challenge of early college is an emotional necessity. 

 

With all of that said -- and I haven't read this particular book -- I am not a believer in pushing kids into radical acceleration. It's not necessary or appropriate for every kid, even the very bright ones. It worked for my daughter, but my son had no interest in taking the same path. He did start college "early," beginning community college classes at 15, and we fully supported it when he decided to go ahead with full-time university enrollment at 16. But I am absolutely certain that pushing him or imposing a goal of full-time college at 12 wouldn't have been healthy.

[hjffkj]

I read the book.  I do believe that there are many college level courses that a high schooler can do, even a freshman, and I would much rather my children take the college course and get credit for it rather than doing the high school course and still needing to take the college course a few years later.  But that would depend on the child's ability to handle a big workload, have great study skills, and be able to retain information at a faster pace.  An average 12 year old starting college seems ridiculous.  Even if it has worked for this family the idea that they think it could work for any family is laughable.

[Catwoman]

I haven't read this book, but it sounds quite similar to books written by the Swann family a while back, which were also discussed on this forum. I don't recall whether or not any of the Swann kids earned graduate degrees, though -- it has been a while since I read about them.

 

I don't like a "one size fits all" approach to education, even within the same family, and I think applying the same methodology across the board sounds more like it's more about ambitious parents who want bragging rights (and a successful educational consulting business) than about what each individual child really needs.

[stripe]

I have the book ready at the library to pick up so I haven't read it yet.

[Catwoman]

I don't get it. College at 12, why?? So you can join the workforce at 16??

My ds was capable of college-level work very early, but he was still just a boy, and I didn't (and still don't) feel the need to make him grow up too quickly, just so I can tell my friends and family what an amazing genius he is.

 

There is a lot to be said for being able to fit in with the group, and a 12yo isn't going to fit in socially with 18-22 year olds. He's going to be viewed more like the class pet than like an equal, no matter how bright he is. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but I would bet they are few and far-between.

 

And what's the big rush to get your kids through college and off to work? :confused:

[Syllieann]

I read it a couple months ago. I agree with the things op took from it. I have only two points to add. First, college at 12 is misleading. The classes they took at 12 would be offered only on a remedial basis at many schools. A college prep high school student with honors and ap's would likely skip algebra, calculus, introductory foreign language, and freshman composition. The kids started what I view as college level work more in the 14-15 yo range.

 

The other point is that the mom got them into college by doing sort of an extreme form of studying to the test. This method really shoves content knowledge to the back burner. I don't think I would feel especially good about giving my children that kind of education in terms of content. Their family seems happy though. Contrary to criticisms I've read from others, the kids weren't sent across the country and living in dorms at 12, nor were they deprived of their childhood playtime.

[Ad astra]

My ds was capable of college-level work very early, but he was still just a boy, and I didn't (and still don't) feel the need to make him grow up too quickly, just so I can tell my friends and family what an amazing genius he is.

 

There is a lot to be said for being able to fit in with the group, and a 12yo isn't going to fit in socially with 18-22 year olds. He's going to be viewed more like the class pet than like an equal, no matter how bright he is. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but I would bet they are few and far-between.

 

And what's the big rush to get your kids through college and off to work? :confused:

I'm with you. Just be careful there seem to be many early college advocates on this forum. ;)

 

Every child is different and colleges vary across the nation so I'm not trying to make any generalization or judge other's choice. I just want to mention that I did meet a 16-year-old preppy-looking Ivy freshman the other day. I'm sure he's really smart and capable, but I and many people there felt his overall demeanor was rather impatient and immature compared to his classmates'. On the other hand, I was really impressed by the Jewish twins, who just graduated from one of the nation's top high schools, and many other such 18-year-old freshmen there. I had the feeling they will be successful no matter what they choose to do in the future. After meeting these students, I can't imagine sending my kids off to university campus early, not to mention at 12, even more.

[hjffkj]

My ds was capable of college-level work very early, but he was still just a boy, and I didn't (and still don't) feel the need to make him grow up too quickly, just so I can tell my friends and family what an amazing genius he is.

 

There is a lot to be said for being able to fit in with the group, and a 12yo isn't going to fit in socially with 18-22 year olds. He's going to be viewed more like the class pet than like an equal, no matter how bright he is. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but I would bet they are few and far-between.

 

And what's the big rush to get your kids through college and off to work? :confused:

 

But in a college classroom setting how much do the students actually interact in which fitting in would matter.  I know my experience with freshman and mostly sophomore year were classes ranging from 100 to 400 students in which no discussion among the students actually occurred in class. Even in smaller community college classes the first year courses don't have much social interaction in them.  It wasn't until my last 2 years where we really started working together in classes.  Aside from any English course I took, those always had discussion about the readings and tended to have 30 students or less.

 

I do agree that I don't understand the rush of getting kids through college but I wouldn't hold a child back if they aren't thriving with lower courses(not saying you are with your son) because they would socially fit in with other students.  I only have this feeling because I could have been a student who went to college prior to the normal age but instead had to deal with 4 terribly boring years in highschool, where I learned fun ways to cheat in order to not be bored out of my mind!

[lewelma]

Just be careful there seem to be many early college advocates on this forum. ;)

I do not find this to be the case. There are 2 posters I know of whose kids have attended very young (12-14) and a few who have attended at 16-17. There are also a few parents whose kids are very advanced at age 6 or 7 who have been asking around for advice recently in an effort to understand the pros and cons of different choices. But no one on the WTM board *advocates* early college, in fact no one at all. The general consensus on the accelerated board is do what is best for your particular child, and for a lot of us that means enriching high school to make students competitive at a standard age for both elite universities and scholarships.

 

Ruth in NZ

[kiana]

I'm with you. Just be careful there seem to be many early college advocates on this forum. ;)

There are a lot of people who think that kids are individuals and need to be treated as individuals and guided to the path that's best for them.

 

Sometimes that might include early college. It's definitely the best choice for some.

 

Sometimes that might include college at a more standard time with an impressive load of advanced courses. It's probably a better choice for many.

[Jenny in Florida]

My ds was capable of college-level work very early, but he was still just a boy, and I didn't (and still don't) feel the need to make him grow up too quickly, just so I can tell my friends and family what an amazing genius he is.

 

There is a lot to be said for being able to fit in with the group, and a 12yo isn't going to fit in socially with 18-22 year olds. He's going to be viewed more like the class pet than like an equal, no matter how bright he is. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but I would bet they are few and far-between.

 

And what's the big rush to get your kids through college and off to work? :confused:

 

Ooooh boy, so many things to respond to here.

 

First, as the mom of two early college kids, including one who was radically accelerated and did start college at 12, I just have to say -- again, since it keeps getting lost -- that there are plenty of very good reasons to allow a bright, mature young person to accelerate that have nothing to do with "telling family and friends what an amazing genius" the kid is. I would start that list with the most important reason: the kid in question is bored and lonely and needs the intellectual and emotional stimulation of interacting with academic peers and instructors who can genuinely challenge him or her. For me, that's the deal in a nutshell. If you have a kid who is smart but NOT in that boat, then you don't get it. For those of us who have successful early college kids, it's clear that we are in no way pushing. Instead, we're just doing our best to hang onto the kid's coattails.

 

Second, I find fitting in with the group to be a highly over-rated skill. As I told a "friend" of mine who lamented that my son always seemed to stand out, I had no intention of squashing or hiding or downplaying my kids' abilities so that they would blend. I was much more interested in nurturing them to be the leaders they are clearly meant to be. I don't know of a single person who ever accomplished anything exciting or meaningful by being worried about being part of the crowd.

 

Third, although she definitely seemed young when she started her first semester, by the time she was into her second year, most of the other students on her campus had no clue that she was 13 or 14. Because of her age, she was required to live in the special EC dorm for her first two years, but other students with whom she interacted (for group projects, social stuff, theatre rehearsals, etc.) were usually quite surprised when she disclosed her age by saying which dorm she lived in. 

 

My son, who is older (16) has been on his campus for a little over a week and has already assembled a group of four or five other students with whom he socializes. He does not disclose his age unless someone asks or it comes up for a legitimate reason, and both instructors and students are usually extremely surprised when he does. This is consistent with his experience at the community college last year. It's simply a non-issue.

 

Finally, as I already explained in another post, there are a ton of things to do after completing a bachelors degree besides go to work. Most of the EC kids I've known and known of over the years pursue some kind of post-graduate education or degree. One 19-year-old guy who started undergrad about the same time as my daughter is working on his Ph.D. in computational neuroscience at an Ivy League school. A couple of the girls with whom my daughter graduated are in med school. Another finished her master's degree in counseling a little over a year ago. (She took a little extra time, because she's had to work to pay her own way.) 

 

I know of a pair of twins who started college at 14, finished at 18 and are now touring with their rock band.

 

My own daughter graduated at 16 and then took a gap year of sorts, diving into dance and vocal training and doing some local theatre. She then spent a couple of years working and saving, which made her move to NYC possible. She is now living her nearly life-long dream of being in the city and has been accepted to a prestigious acting training program.

 

Every one of those kids chose early college because it fit their educational and emotional needs, not because they were pushed into by parents who wanted bragging rights or were in a hurry to put the kids to work.

 

I'm with you. Just be careful there seem to be many early college advocates on this forum. ;)

 

Every child is different and colleges vary across the nation so I'm not trying to make any generalization or judge other's choice. I just want to mention that I did meet a 16-year-old preppy-looking Ivy freshman the other day. I'm sure he's really smart and capable, but I and many people there felt his overall demeanor was rather impatient and immature compared to his classmates'. On the other hand, I was really impressed by the Jewish twins, who just graduated from one of the nation's top high schools, and many other such 18-year-old freshmen there. I had the feeling they will be successful no matter what they choose to do in the future. After meeting these students, I can't imagine sending my kids off to university campus early, not to mention at 12, even more.

 

Here's the thing, though: It's entirely possible you've also met other EC kids whom you didn't even know were young, because it just wasn't an issue. 

 

My son co- and assistant taught classes at his dance studio last year. (In practice, this meant that he taught a couple of classes on his own, under general supervision from the director, because she had to be off-site for most of the scheduled class times.) His students adored him, and I had multiple parents seek me out to tell me what a wonderful, talented and mature young man he is. They were so impressed at what a great job he was doing at only 18 years old. Imagine their surprise when the director nudged me to tell them he was actually only 15 at the time. 

 

It's just not something most people even notice, and that is the case for most of the EC kids we've known over the years.

 

Again, I am in no way advocating a one-size-fits-all policy of shoving kids who have no interest in it into college at 12. But really, it's neither as rare nor as "out there" as a lot of people seem to think. And for a lot of the kids who choose this path, it works out really well.

[kiana]

As far as the actual original post goes, I think that most (not all) kids who go off to a mediocre college and complete an average major (say, history, or math, or english) by age 16 are being done a disservice. They're not ready to work at age 16, and doing an average major at a mediocre college is not a path that leads to graduate school/medical school/law school, if that's in the cards. If a student is prepared to complete an advanced major (that is, entering with advanced standing at 12, ready to hold down more than 12-15 credits a semester of challenging, honors-level coursework in the major), that would be a very different issue.

 

This is a complicated decision and one that really, really needs to be made on a case-by-case basis.

 

FWIW, by "average major" I'm talking about something like completing 40 credits in the major with a 3.0 GPA or something like that -- in other words, doing the minimum necessary to get that bachelor's degree in as soon as possible.

[maize]

I was impressed at the family's willingness to help each child pursue their own interests and studies, aside from the general push for early college it really did seem that they are interested in each child's individual development.

 

It's a different path from what I am taking with my family, but I enjoyed to book and it did make me think about non-standard paths.

[Catwoman]

Ooooh boy, so many things to respond to here.

 

First, as the mom of two early college kids, including one who was radically accelerated and did start college at 12, I just have to say -- again, since it keeps getting lost -- that there are plenty of very good reasons to allow a bright, mature young person to accelerate that have nothing to do with "telling family and friends what an amazing genius" the kid is. I would start that list with the most important reason: the kid in question is bored and lonely and needs the intellectual and emotional stimulation of interacting with academic peers and instructors who can genuinely challenge him or her. For me, that's the deal in a nutshell. If you have a kid who is smart but NOT in that boat, then you don't get it. For those of us who have successful early college kids, it's clear that we are in no way pushing. Instead, we're just doing our best to hang onto the kid's coattails.

 

Second, I find fitting in with the group to be a highly over-rated skill. As I told a "friend" of mine who lamented that my son always seemed to stand out, I had no intention of squashing or hiding or downplaying my kids' abilities so that they would blend. I was much more interested in nurturing them to be the leaders they are clearly meant to be. I don't know of a single person who ever accomplished anything exciting or meaningful by being worried about being part of the crowd.

 

Third, although she definitely seemed young when she started her first semester, by the time she was into her second year, most of the other students on her campus had no clue that she was 13 or 14. Because of her age, she was required to live in the special EC dorm for her first two years, but other students with whom she interacted (for group projects, social stuff, theatre rehearsals, etc.) were usually quite surprised when she disclosed her age by saying which dorm she lived in.

 

My son, who is older (16) has been on his campus for a little over a week and has already assembled a group of four or five other students with whom he socializes. He does not disclose his age unless someone asks or it comes up for a legitimate reason, and both instructors and students are usually extremely surprised when he does. This is consistent with his experience at the community college last year. It's simply a non-issue.

 

Finally, as I already explained in another post, there are a ton of things to do after completing a bachelors degree besides go to work. Most of the EC kids I've known and known of over the years pursue some kind of post-graduate education or degree. One 19-year-old guy who started undergrad about the same time as my daughter is working on his Ph.D. in computational neuroscience at an Ivy League school. A couple of the girls with whom my daughter graduated are in med school. Another finished her master's degree in counseling a little over a year ago. (She took a little extra time, because she's had to work to pay her own way.)

 

I know of a pair of twins who started college at 14, finished at 18 and are now touring with their rock band.

 

My own daughter graduated at 16 and then took a gap year of sorts, diving into dance and vocal training and doing some local theatre. She then spent a couple of years working and saving, which made her move to NYC possible. She is now living her nearly life-long dream of being in the city and has been accepted to a prestigious acting training program.

 

Every one of those kids chose early college because it fit their educational and emotional needs, not because they were pushed into by parents who wanted bragging rights or were in a hurry to put the kids to work.

 

 

Here's the thing, though: It's entirely possible you've also met other EC kids whom you didn't even know were young, because it just wasn't an issue.

 

My son co- and assistant taught classes at his dance studio last year. (In practice, this meant that he taught a couple of classes on his own, under general supervision from the director, because she had to be off-site for most of the schedule class times.) His students adored him, and I had multiple parents seek me out to tell me what a wonderful, talented and mature young man he is. They were so impressed at what a great job he was doing at only 18 years old. Imagine their surprise when the director nudged me to tell them he was actually only 15 at the time.

 

It's just not something most people even notice, and that is the case for most of the EC kids we've known over the years.

 

Again, I am in no way advocating a one-size-fits-all policy of shoving kids who have no interest in it into college at 12. But really, it's neither as rare nor as "out there" as a lot of people seem to think. And for a lot of the kids who choose this path, it works out really well.

Actually, I do have one of "those kids," so I know exactly what you're talking about. :)

 

I have just chosen to challenge him in different ways, rather than send him off to college at a very early age. I don't particularly care if he gets a "head start" on his career. He will have plenty of time for that, and at this point, he is planning to join the family firm anyway, so it's a non-issue right now. But even if he was going to work for someone else or start his own business, what's the rush?

 

I respect your choices, but I don't believe that attending college early is any indication that one child is more or less capable than any other child. Most young teens who do reasonably well in school could handle college-level work, particularly if we're not talking about the Ivies or other highly selective universities. It's the social stuff that I think is a bigger issue, especially if the college doesn't have a fair number of other very young students.

 

BTW, I don't consider 16 to be particularly young to be taking college classes, because so many high school kids do some form of dual enrollment.

[Ad astra]

I do not find this to be the case. There are 2 posters I know of whose kids have attended very young (12-14) and a few who have attended at 16-17. There are also a few parents whose kids are very advanced at age 6 or 7 who have been asking around for advice recently in an effort to understand the pros and cons of different choices. But no one on the WTM board *advocates* early college, in fact no one at all. The general consensus on the accelerated board is do what is best for your particular child, and for a lot of us that means enriching high school to make students competitive at a standard age for both elite universities and scholarships.

 

Ruth in NZ

Ruth, I haven't been here for long but that is unfortunately not true based on how I got scolded by a few posters on the accelerated board for even mentioning about my personal preference on enriching high school to make my kids competitive instead of sending them off to college early, if it ever becomes my situation. I won't go deeper with it because I don't wish to cause any drama. I was just letting CatWoman know some might take her opinion personal as well. That's all.

 

ETA: Think "advocates" was an inappropriate word choice. My apologies.

[Catwoman]

As far as the actual original post goes, I think that most (not all) kids who go off to a mediocre college and complete an average major (say, history, or math, or english) by age 16 are being done a disservice. They're not ready to work at age 16, and doing an average major at a mediocre college is not a path that leads to graduate school/medical school/law school, if that's in the cards. If a student is prepared to complete an advanced major (that is, entering with advanced standing at 12, ready to hold down more than 12-15 credits a semester of challenging, honors-level coursework in the major), that would be a very different issue.

 

This is a complicated decision and one that really, really needs to be made on a case-by-case basis.

 

FWIW, by "average major" I'm talking about something like completing 40 credits in the major with a 3.0 GPA or something like that -- in other words, doing the minimum necessary to get that bachelor's degree in as soon as possible.

I agree with this. I have known a few families who sent their kids to college at very young ages, and they spent a lot of time finding a school that would accept them, without worrying very much about the reputation of the schools. It was all about the kids getting into any college and getting a degree -- any degree!

 

Jenny in Florida's kids were much different in that both of them already knew what they wanted to study and had specific interests to pursue. That wasn't the case with the kids I knew, and I suspect that the vast majority of 12 year-olds have no clue as to what career they will want to pursue when they grow up -- which is quite a few years into the future when you're still only a 12yo kid!

 

Again, I do think Jenny's situation was different than what I have heard about other "very early college" families.

[Catwoman]

Ruth, I haven't been here for long but that is unfortunately not true based on how I got scolded by a few posters on the accelerated board for even mentioning about my personal preference on enriching high school to make my kids competitive instead of sending them off to college early, if it ever becomes my situation. I won't go deeper with it because I don't wish to cause any drama. I was just letting CatWoman know some might take her opinion personal as well. That's all.

Thanks, Moon! :)

[kiana]

Again, I do think Jenny's situation was different than what I have heard about other "very early college" families.

 

Certainly, and I mean nothing at all negative about Jenny, her kids, and her decision. It looks like it's working out wonderfully for them, and I am very happy. But as you said, they knew very well what they wanted to do.

 

I'm thinking especially about the people who are doing something like College Plus (loads of CLEP plus online courses) with the goal of graduating before high school would normally be completed, and then possibly going on for further study -- I don't know if you remember the delusional poster on the accelerated board before, who came back and deleted all her posts after getting banned for name-calling?

 

In these cases, the goal is not "to educate the child" but "to tick the box as soon as possible." I think that's where it really falls into problematic territory -- when the goal is box-ticking rather than education.

[Jenny in Florida]

Actually, I do have one of "those kids," so I know exactly what you're talking about. :)

 

I have just chosen to challenge him in different ways, rather than send him off to college at a very early age. I don't particularly care if he gets a "head start" on his career. He will have plenty of time for that, and at this point, he is planning to join the family firm anyway, so it's a non-issue right now. But even if he was going to work for someone else or start his own business, what's the rush?

 

I respect your choices, but I don't believe that attending college early is any indication that one child is more or less capable than any other child. Most young teens who do reasonably well in school could handle college-level work, particularly if we're not talking about the Ivies or other highly selective universities. It's the social stuff that I think is a bigger issue, especially if the college doesn't have a fair number of other very young students.

 

BTW, I don't consider 16 to be particularly young to be taking college classes, because so many high school kids do some form of dual enrollment.

 

My point was that, if what you're doing is working for your kid, then you don't have one for whom early college would have been appropriate or necessary. Most of the parents I know who have allowed EC  for their kids go that route only after "challenging them in other ways" has failed. For those kids, it really doesn't matter whether you want them to have a head start; it's about whether this individual kid, himself, is driven to pursue one.

 

For kids who successfully pursue early college, it isn't a rush. It's developmentally appropriate. It's not about being academically capable. It's about needing college -- not just "college-level work" -- but college with all that it entails. It's about needing to be surrounded by academic and social peers in order to thrive. My daughter went to college at 12 because that's when she was ready to go. I tried desperately to hold her off, actually. I offered every promise and bribe I could imagine to make it worth her while to stay home for at least one more year. But then I watched her wilt before my eyes, and I decided to let her give it a try.

 

And you're right, 16 isn't young to be taking college classes. I started at 16, too, with nary an issue or raised eyebrow. My son is admittedly having a somewhat different experience, in that he isn't "taking college classes" through dual enrollment, but is a regular, full-time, residential student. However, I agree that it's a whole different kettle of fish from a 12 year old. (I've had one of each and am familiar with the distinction.) I mentioned my son only as a counterpoint to another poster's comments about a 16-year-old college freshman she met. 

[Catwoman]

Certainly, and I mean nothing at all negative about Jenny, her kids, and her decision. It looks like it's working out wonderfully for them, and I am very happy. But as you said, they knew very well what they wanted to do.

 

I'm thinking especially about the people who are doing something like College Plus (loads of CLEP plus online courses) with the goal of graduating before high school would normally be completed, and then possibly going on for further study -- I don't know if you remember the delusional poster on the accelerated board before, who came back and deleted all her posts after getting banned for name-calling?

 

In these cases, the goal is not "to educate the child" but "to tick the box as soon as possible." I think that's where it really falls into problematic territory -- when the goal is box-ticking rather than education.

:iagree:

 

I agree completely. :)

[maize]

Certainly, and I mean nothing at all negative about Jenny, her kids, and her decision. It looks like it's working out wonderfully for them, and I am very happy. But as you said, they knew very well what they wanted to do.

 

I'm thinking especially about the people who are doing something like College Plus (loads of CLEP plus online courses) with the goal of graduating before high school would normally be completed, and then possibly going on for further study -- I don't know if you remember the delusional poster on the accelerated board before, who came back and deleted all her posts after getting banned for name-calling?

 

In these cases, the goal is not "to educate the child" but "to tick the box as soon as possible." I think that's where it really falls into problematic territory -- when the goal is box-ticking rather than education.

I agree that this can be a concern, but I don't think this is what is happening with the Brainy Bunch family. What impressed me about their book is that the kids are at real universities getting challenging degrees, and following individual interests. I have seen the kind of path you describe above in other families, so I was pleasantly surprised by the approach this family seems to be taking. No, they're not at Harvard--that doesn't seem to be on their radar as a goal. But they are pursuing real, worthwhile education.

[kiana]

I agree that this can be a concern, but I don't think this is what is happening with the Brainy Bunch family. What impressed me about their book is that the kids are at real universities getting challenging degrees, and following individual interests. I have seen the kind of path you describe above in other families, so I was pleasantly surprised by the approach this family seems to be taking. No, they're not at Harvard--that doesn't seem to be on their radar as a goal. But they are pursuing real, worthwhile education.

Right, sorry if I wasn't clear. I think their kids and their family look happy, they're going to real schools and pursuing bachelor's degrees that can lead to jobs/graduate school/whatever.

 

What I don't like is their book tacitly saying that this is achievable or desirable for a random student.

[Catwoman]

For kids who successfully pursue early college, it isn't a rush. It's developmentally appropriate. It's not about being academically capable. It's about needing college -- not just "college-level work" -- but college with all that it entails. It's about needing to be surrounded by academic and social peers in order to thrive. My daughter went to college at 12 because that's when she was ready to go. I tried desperately to hold her off, actually. I offered every promise and bribe I could imagine to make it worth her while to stay home for at least one more year. But then I watched her wilt before my eyes, and I decided to let her give it a try.

I'm just curious -- how did your dd even think going away to college was an option when she was only 12 years old? I wouldn't think it would even be on a child's radar if her parents didn't offer it as a possibility. Did your family know other kids who started college at 12?

[Catwoman]

I agree that this can be a concern, but I don't think this is what is happening with the Brainy Bunch family. What impressed me about their book is that the kids are at real universities getting challenging degrees, and following individual interests. I have seen the kind of path you describe above in other families, so I was pleasantly surprised by the approach this family seems to be taking. No, they're not at Harvard--that doesn't seem to be on their radar as a goal. But they are pursuing real, worthwhile education.

I would be very interested to learn whether these kids will still be happy with their educational and career choices when they get older. The only reason I'm wondering is because my ambitions as a 12yo changed dramatically by the time I was in my late teens and 20's.

 

What if a kid goes to college at 12, but by 19, feels that he has completely wasted his time getting a degree in a discipline which no longer interests him? I know that can happen at any age, but it would seem that there would be a higher probability of it occurring when a kid had to make those big choices at 12.

[maize]

I would be very interested to learn whether these kids will still be happy with their educational and career choices when they get older. The only reason I'm wondering is because my ambitions as a 12yo changed dramatically by the time I was in my late teens and 20's.

 

What if a kid goes to college at 12, but by 19, feels that he has completely wasted his time getting a degree in a discipline which no longer interests him? I know that can happen at any age, but it would seem that there would be a higher probability of it occurring when a kid had to make those big choices at 12.

I suppose they could go back and get a degree in something different. I'm almost thinking one of the older kids has done this, but I may be misremembering.

 

In many countries kids have to start speaking specializing in high school, and once you have started down one path it is hard to switch to another. I am not sure the typical American model of waiting to specialize is better as kids often spend a lit of years not really interested or engaged in what they are doing.It seems possible that time spent vigorously pursuing an interest could actually lead to a healthier/happier path overall even if some backtracking and gear shifting has to happen later.

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm just curious -- how did your dd even think going away to college was an option when she was only 12 years old? I wouldn't think it would even be on a child's radar if her parents didn't offer it as a possibility. Did your family know other kids who started college at 12?

 

No, we didn't know any other EC kids until she started school, herself. And I wouldn't have thought it was a possibility until we started investigating for her.

 

She started asking about college when she was eight. It's actually what led us to the WTM, because she wanted to know what the plan was for getting her into college when it was time. (I think that might have been about the time we watched the PBS documentary about Julliard? That might have started the conversation, but I'm not sure.) *  She was also a member of the local anthropological society, and I used to take her to meetings and lectures at various college campuses in town. So, she was well aware of the idea of college and was looking forward to going.

 

She was a member of a couple of those academic talent searches, Duke TIP and another one I can't remember. So, she used to get brochures and such in the mail from other programs for gifted kids. One of those was a mailing from PEG at Mary Baldwin. She read the booklet from cover to cover, literally sleeping with it under her pillow until she had it memorized. 

 

I encouraged her to look at other options. We called admissions folks at every college and university locally trying to talk someone into letter her take at least a few classes. But she was so young that everyone said no. The admissions person at one private university here in town actually offered to send me information about MBC, because he thought it might be a good fit for my daughter.

 

That's not a question anyone has ever asked me or that I've ever really considered, to tell the truth. It just sort of arose naturally out of her interests and activities.

 

 

* (Edited to add: Yep, I looked it up. The documentary I'm remembering aired on PBS in early 2003, which would have made my daughter eight when she watched it with me. As I'm typing this,it occurs to me that she was also taking youth classes at the Shakespeare theatre then, which were mostly taught by college interns. So, yeah, college would have been something she was very aware of at that point.)

[kiana]

I suppose they could go back and get a degree in something different. I'm almost thinking one of the older kids has done this, but I may be misremembering.

 

In many countries kids have to start speaking specializing in high school, and once you have started down one path it is hard to switch to another. I am not sure the typical American model of waiting to specialize is better as kids often spend a lit of years not really interested or engaged in what they are doing.It seems possible that time spent vigorously pursuing an interest could actually lead to a healthier/happier path overall even if some backtracking and gear shifting has to happen later.

While they could, it's often a lot more difficult to get funding for a second bachelor's.

 

On your second one -- I'd really like a high school model that kept both paths open as separate tracks. So some tracks might have early specialization, while other tracks might be open to all-rounders. The early-specialization ones might end up taking more courses through distance education and/or independent study.

 

I would look at something like England, where the IB and A levels are both options in different schools. The IB specializes, yes, but nowhere near as narrowly.

[Jenny in Florida]

I suppose they could go back and get a degree in something different. I'm almost thinking one of the older kids has done this, but I may be misremembering.

 

Exactly. Education doesn't have to end just because you have earned a degree. In fact, one of the things my kids have found appealing about starting early is that it gives them time to explore and try lots of things. Even now, a little more than three years after graduation, my daughter could go back to college, use the gen ed she completed for her first degree, earn a second degree in a different field and still finish around the same time most people are getting their first bachelor's. Or she could continue working  or just plain loafing around for another two years, then apply and attend grad school at a typical age.

[Caroline]

I have been following Jenny's dd's story for a long time on these boards. My dd could be on a similar path. It can be a very lonely world for these kids.

[Jenny in Florida]

I would be very interested to learn whether these kids will still be happy with their educational and career choices when they get older. The only reason I'm wondering is because my ambitions as a 12yo changed dramatically by the time I was in my late teens and 20's.

 

What if a kid goes to college at 12, but by 19, feels that he has completely wasted his time getting a degree in a discipline which no longer interests him? I know that can happen at any age, but it would seem that there would be a higher probability of it occurring when a kid had to make those big choices at 12.

 

Again, most of the EC kids I know of who've done well had a pretty clear idea of what they wanted by the time they were starting. The ones who didn't, who started taking classes early but didn't go full-time right away, often took a longer, less direct route and used college classes as a supplement to a more age-typical education. For example, one boy I know of took his first college classes at eight or nine but took just a class or two each semester. He's 17 now and has enrolled as a full-time student at a selective college this fall. He has more than enough credits to graduate in three years and is looking toward grad school after that.

 

I know of another young man who started college at 14, earned an associate's degree in something techy at 16, then started over as a freshman at a different college and earned degrees in music and ministry. When he changed his mind, he shifted gears.

[Catwoman]

No, we didn't know any other EC kids until she started school, herself. And I wouldn't have thought it was a possibility until we started investigating for her.

 

She started asking about college when she was eight. It's actually what led us to the WTM, because she wanted to know what the plan was for getting her into college when it was time. (I think that might have been about the time we watched the PBS documentary about Julliard? That might have started the conversation, but I'm not sure.) *  She was also a member of the local anthropological society, and I used to take her to meetings and lectures at various college campuses in town. So, she was well aware of the idea of college and was looking forward to going.

 

She was a member of a couple of those academic talent searches, Duke TIP and another one I can't remember. So, she used to get brochures and such in the mail from other programs for gifted kids. One of those was a mailing from PEG at Mary Baldwin. She read the booklet from cover to cover, literally sleeping with it under her pillow until she had it memorized. 

 

I encouraged her to look at other options. We called admissions folks at every college and university locally trying to talk someone into letter her take at least a few classes. But she was so young that everyone said no. The admissions person at one private university here in town actually offered to send me information about MBC, because he thought it might be a good fit for my daughter.

 

That's not a question anyone has ever asked me or that I've ever really considered, to tell the truth. It just sort of arose naturally out of her interests and activities.

 

 

* (Edited to add: Yep, I looked it up. The documentary I'm remembering aired on PBS in early 2003, which would have made my daughter eight when she watched it with me. As I'm typing this,it occurs to me that she was also taking youth classes at the Shakespeare theatre then, which were mostly taught by college interns. So, yeah, college would have been something she was very aware of at that point.)

Thanks! It's a very cool story! :)

[Catwoman]

Again, most of the EC kids I know of who've done well had a pretty clear idea of what they wanted by the time they were starting. The ones who didn't, who started taking classes early but didn't go full-time right away, often took a longer, less direct route and used college classes as a supplement to a more age-typical education. For example, one boy I know of took his first college classes at eight or nine but took just a class or two each semester. He's 17 now and has enrolled as a full-time student at a selective college this fall. He has more than enough credits to graduate in three years and is looking toward grad school after that.

 

I know of another young man who started college at 14, earned an associate's degree in something techy at 16, then started over as a freshman at a different college and earned degrees in music and ministry. When he changed his mind, he shifted gears.

I think your kids are especially interesting, because they both had definite talents from very early on, in addition to their academic abilities.

[Hunter]

 

 

 

Here's the thing, though: It's entirely possible you've also met other EC kids whom you didn't even know were young, because it just wasn't an issue. 

 

 

 

My son was 16 when a teacher asked him to take the porno off the classroom computers so the women wouldn't see it. I'm guessing she had NO idea he was 16. At least I hope she didn't know.

 

Some kids are even more socially mature than they are academically accelerated. 

 

I think my son was 15 when several vehicles pulled into our driveway full of co-workers, ready to take my son to a party. When I asked the 20+ year old drivers whether there was going to be drinking, and reminded them of my son's age, they left him behind with apologies, because many of them had never known his age, never mind forgotten.

 

The conversation went something like, "Dude, you're really 15? Wow! That's okay and everything, but we can't bring you tonight, because your mom is like…scary and threatened to hurt us if you got hurt. See you at work on Monday. Kay?"

 

Then there was the adult female artist, that we forbid him to keep flirting with. He was really mad, because he was just flirting with her so she would talk art with him and it was the ART he cared about, not her. My husband told him he was being mean playing with her feelings like that, and ordered him to stop. I think he was 14.

 

I have other stories, but that's enough to make my point. People seldom knew my son's age. The only people that guessed at work were a very occasional older woman customer. Never men. Never younger women or girls. Even his bosses forgot and would order him to do things that were illegal. It wasn't that he was merely accepted. People didn't know.

[Jenny in Florida]

I have other stories, but that's enough to make my point. People seldom knew my son's age. The only people that guessed at work were a very occasional older woman customer. Never men. Never younger women or girls. Even his bosses forgot and would order him to do things that were illegal. It wasn't that he was merely accepted. People didn't know.

 

Yep, I have similar stories about both of mine, too. I know it's tough to believe if you haven't watched one of these kids in action, but super smart doesn't always or even usually = socially awkward. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I would hate to see academic-type homeschoolers behaving or thinking disdainfully toward early college students who are very appropriately placed there. I daresay more of us would have gone this route had we known the system well enough to use it to our child's advantage. I certainly would have considered it if I'd had the background and connections to know how to investigate the possibility. Even so, anytime I've heard of it or considered it, it was about ONE or TWO children and never recommended for the whole family or for Other People's Kids.

 

My disdain for the book and for this family's approach is that they are gung-ho, wholesale, across the board saying that early college is appropriate for all homeschooled students. That is ridiculous on the face of it. It is a proposition that has absolutely nothing whatever to do with unique students for whom early college is the solution to their needs.

[Jenny in Florida]

My disdain for the book and for this family's approach is that they are gung-ho, wholesale, across the board saying that early college is appropriate for all homeschooled students. That is ridiculous on the face of it. It is a proposition that has absolutely nothing whatever to do with unique students for whom early college is the solution to their needs.

 

I have not read the book, and I wouldn't go so far as to use the word "disdain," but I do remember feeling uncomfortable with the parents' comments when I read a couple of articles about them a few months ago.

 

I don't think education can be reduced to a formula, especially one based on chronological age. I don't think that approach is valid whether it's the conventional kindergarten-at-five, college-at-18 trajectory followed by most institutional schools or this family's insistence that every kid can be ready for college at 12 if only others follow their prescription.

[Hunter]

 

 

My disdain for the book and for this family's approach is that they are gung-ho, wholesale, across the board saying that early college is appropriate for all homeschooled students. That is ridiculous on the face of it. It is a proposition that has absolutely nothing whatever to do with unique students for whom early college is the solution to their needs.

 

I skimmed the book at the bookstore and did NOT like it.

[Jenny in Florida]

Well, it turns out my local library has the eBook. So, I just sat here and read it. There's not a lot to it. I finished it in a couple of hours while keeping one eye on re-watching Sherlock.

 

So, I have this to say: Don't buy the book if you can avoid it. There's very little actual information in it, and it's not well written. I wanted to dislike it and them (based on news coverage I've seen previously), but I can't maintain it. They seem like nice people, good parents. I even found things to agree with here and there. For example, one of the daughters mentions that, when an eight-year-old child tells a parent she wants to be an astronaut, the typical parents nods and says, "That's cute." But her dad would have signed that kid up for the next session of Space Camp and found a way to introduce her to a friend of a friend who cleans rockets. 

 

They take their kids' interests seriously and support them to the best of their ability, and that is something we definitely have in common. 

 

They do use a hothouse analogy early in the book, though, and I think it's a little too accurate. Although the kids' daily academic schedules don't sound terribly taxing, the parents really do place a lot of emphasis on prepping the kids to pass -- not excel on, just pass -- the tests necessary to squeak by admissions rules for their local colleges. For example, the kids start studying for the ACT/SAT at about age eight, sometimes using the review sections of the test prep books in place of regular math textbooks or curricula. Even so, the kids often don't pass the California High School Proficiency Exam on their first try. 

 

On the other hand, the older kids seem to be doing fine. They are pursuing post-graduate degrees and interesting (and varied) careers. So, it's not like they are victims of a cookie-cutter approach to education. 

 

I still don't think it's an appropriate approach for most kids. And it's certainly not representative of the early college families I've known. It is also true that this particular family is very definitely and actively seeking media attention with an eye toward financial gain, but they don't seem to be doing their kids any damage. 

[Arcadia]

It is also true that this particular family is very definitely and actively seeking media attention with an eye toward financial gain, but they don't seem to be doing their kids any damage.

My hubby read the book at the library since no one is interested in it. He thinks the author is too boastful in tone.

So far no one has loan out that book since we walk to the library almost daily.

[Azalea]

Birchbark, thank you for your thoughtful, well written review.

[FloridaLisa]

Birchbark,

 

I'm curious about experiences the kids had outside of academics.  Did they play instruments or sports? Were they involved in volunteer work or jobs?  Did the family travel or have shared experiences outside of academics? And did they have any kids that chafed at the academic pushing?

 

Lisa

[kiwik]

Ruth, I haven't been here for long but that is unfortunately not true based on how I got scolded by a few posters on the accelerated board for even mentioning about my personal preference on enriching high school to make my kids competitive instead of sending them off to college early, if it ever becomes my situation. I won't go deeper with it because I don't wish to cause any drama. I was just letting CatWoman know some might take her opinion personal as well. That's all.

 

ETA: Think "advocates" was an inappropriate word choice. My apologies.

When you have an accelerated child you have usually had people tell you to "just let them be kids" and if in the school system "your child will be chalkeged by in class differentiation (more work at the same level usually). It becomes a bit of a sore spot.