TheAttachedMama Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Hi There! I have two second graders. We are using Singapore Math 2A right now. And I really need help teaching my son his addition and subtraction facts. We had been using RightStart and using all of their games to work on math facts. However, he still doesn't have the speed that he needs to move on. (IMHO) I'm afraid to move TOO far ahead in singapore without getting this basic stuff down....you know? We had been using a paid program called Reflex math to review the facts. However, my son HATED this website. It stressed him out and he cried every time he 'had' to play. Then we moved over to a free web program called xtramath at the end of July. My son likes this program better than reflex math. He never complains about it. However, I'm not sure it is the best instruction for him. I've attached his progress chart below..... And, as you can see, he has remained pretty much where he began when we started this program. (He only is proficient in 20% of his math facts.) My question is: Do I need to give this program more time? OR, is there another option/strategy I might try to teach him his facts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmasc Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I think the CLE addition/subtraction flash card system is simply genius. :) You do not have to use CLE Math to use it. They have full instructions included so it can be used on its own. There is a system to the memorization/flash cards, so it's not just random flash card use. I can see improvement in my DS's fact recall with just a few months of use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genny Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 My little one's enjoy playing sumdog (we use the free version), there's also sheppard software. I found regularly practicing to be important for my little one's. Are you doing a bit each day? How about c-rods and using the ideas from the education unboxed videos? Sorry if I sound rambly.... hope you find something that clicks :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in VA Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Flashmaster!! Best math related thing I've ever purchased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mohini Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 The one thing you'll never see is somebody who uses CLE in the early grades complaining that their kids don't know basic facts. Yes, the program may be weaker in "divergent" thinking and profound mathematical relationships but really, how is a child supposed to apply all the fancy abstract methods in Singapore or MIF or any "Asian style" math without first knowing their facts? My ds had zero recall with MIF. Sure he could build number bonds with unifix cubes and make up all kinds of neat number stories for a given picture - but he fundamentally did not understand the underlying mathematical principle (like addition.) I'm sure that there are kids for whom it works but as I've written in other threads, it seems to me that Singapore and co. are programs that delve more into logic stage thinking rather than the fact acquisition of the grammar stage. I also think that we are taking these "Asian" programs out of context. Asian schools and educational philosophies are different from ours. I spend much of the year in an Asian country that is renowned for turning out world class engineers. Many of the elementary children there have 2 hrs of tutoring BEFORE school starts in the morning (around 8:30) and do not return home before 5pm. The vast majority of their studies consist of "drill and kill" work - including old-school memorization of math tables. It's that proficiency that allows students to delve into the philosophical abstractions of math sooner. For us, CLE has been great. I supplement with TT, Singapore word problems and MUS blocks. I have my kids work on HourofCode.com to develop logical reasoning. I am planing now to transition them to BJU this year exactly because it is more abstract in its teaching but I am nervous about leaving CLE behind. My ds has his +/-/x/ etc... facts down now. Thanks entirely to CLE's rigorous traditional, 2 dimensional program and if I see my ds struggling to comprehend or recall the strategies he's introduced to in BJU, I won't hesitate to put him back into CLE or supplement heavily with it. I agree that CLE flashcards would be a welcome addition to Singapore but, if it were me, I would actually *do* CLE. It could be done every other day. It's easy to skip around in the LU's and even skip LU's. CLE will teach your child to master his facts. Then you can continue on your merry way with Singapore. It may slow you down but in the end, like somebody here said, we're not teaching our kids grade level proficiency, we're teaching them mastery - and that's what makes Hschooling different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeaganS Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 The one thing you'll never see is somebody who uses CLE in the early grades complaining that their kids don't know basic facts. Yes, the program may be weaker in "divergent" thinking and profound mathematical relationships but really, how is a child supposed to apply all the fancy abstract methods in Singapore or MIF or any "Asian style" math without first knowing their facts? My ds had zero recall with MIF. Sure he could build number bonds with unifix cubes and make up all kinds of neat number stories for a given picture - but he fundamentally did not understand the underlying mathematical principle (like addition.) I'm sure that there are kids for whom it works but as I've written in other threads, it seems to me that Singapore and co. are programs that delve more into logic stage thinking rather than the fact acquisition of the grammar stage. I found this to be true for my oldest daughter. I thought about it a lot and realized that some kids infer things (rods, abstract methods, etc.) but some kids need to know their facts first and then be shown all that can be done addition and subtraction. My oldest dd is one of these kids. Before her, I assumed it would be better to teach her all the different ways of looking at arithmetic and then learn facts, but I've come to a different conclusion for her. Now that she knows some of her facts, she's seeing the patterns better. Honestly, it is like the "peg" theory of memorization, and for her the peg theory works. I can already tell my second daughter is more of an "infer" kind of kid (I was too). Her math path will be different than her sister's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAttachedMama Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 Well, I want my children to understand the method AND have the facts down. :) He already understands addition and subtraction (even multiplication and division) in theory.....BUT we are just working on quick recall of the facts. So c-rods and things like that aren't what I am looking for. We have already taught the concept pretty thouroughly. And perhaps I don't understand the CLE flashcard program, but we already do flashcards and work on them several times per day. So what is the CLE flashcard system going to give me that my current method won't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyGF Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 My son is doing great with xtramath (he's 9) but my daughter (7) is not showing any improvement. I think she hates it and therefore doesn't care. It isn't really her style, maybe? Anyway, we played some RightStart games yesterday, which she likes, so I think I'll keep going with that with her. My son is super-competitive, so things like race the teacher really help him. My daughter just hates it. It could also be the age and background - he just needs a bit of a push over the edge to have them down cold, but she is still mastering the basic information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadowlark Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Following. My son is in 2A and we do xtra math too ith not a whole lot of improvement. I'd log to hear specifics about the CLE flash card system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.Ivy Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 My kids are loving using Timez Attack, the addition game, to get their addition facts memorized. I used xtramath.com for a whole year, and while they made progress, it wasnt nearly as good as timez attack. I bought a three month subscription and it took a week for my second grader to memorize all the addition facts. It adjusts to how fast your kid types, and works on little groups of facts at a time. It's the only video game my kids have ever played, and they love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoHomeschooler Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I feel like a broken record, but the workbook Two Plus Two is Not Five has been excellent in helping my daughter get her math facts down. It was a huuuuuge improvement for us. The book can be purchased on Amazon for about $20, and can be copied for multiple students. I love this book so much, I'm buying the multiplication sequel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nart Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I feel like a broken record, but the workbook Two Plus Two is Not Five has been excellent in helping my daughter get her math facts down. It was a huuuuuge improvement for us. The book can be purchased on Amazon for about $20, and can be copied for multiple students. I love this book so much, I'm buying the multiplication sequel. I will be forever thankful that I read about that book on this forum. Two Plus Two Is Not Five (I think I took NASDAQ's recommendation to buy it). I stopped and had my son complete the entire book before going on to Singapore 2A. He struggled at the end of 1B because he hadn't yet memorized his addition and multiplication facts and he would complain because it was too many steps for him to first work out making tens when having to work on multidigit addition and subtraction. He whizzed through 2A after completing the entire book as he really did memorize his math facts. Several times I thought to myself, how do kids complete 2A without knowing their math facts down cold, it must take a long time to finish some pages. My son is finishing 2B while at the same time completing the companion multiplication book (only 10 more pages to go). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 It's been awhile since I used xtramath. It worked too slow on student phones, and we didn't have access to wifi where we were working. But when I did have a situation where I was able to use it long term with one student, I found that the program did not TEACH the facts. When she stalled, I asked her to let me teach her strategies and then retry. After a little instruction meant to TEACH the facts, she would get back on xtramath and see an instant HUGE jump in her scores. There are many programs that teach strategies. One of the most simple ones is copywork of tables. I really like the book How to Tutor, and use the tables from that book, as they are similar in style to the reading program I use, which is part one of the same book, or the updated version Alpha-Phonics. I'm a big believer in math copywork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WahM Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I agree with the CLE Math posts. It has been great for my mathy, wiggly dd. We played to the dumpling 10s and other math games and she learned zero math facts! I got caught up in the whole Asian math programs/Singapore are superior and because that's how naturally do math even though I was never taught that way and began using Singapore, but she brought her nothing but frustration and tears! She went from loving math doing addition and subtraction at 3/4 years old to hating math. So I switched to something we had on hand and saw a difference in her begging to enjoy math again, but didn't feel she was being challenged enough, so we went to CLE and wow I love it, she loves it, it's been nothing but wonderful! I feel CLE teaches the why as you introduce each math fact with a hands on explanation and I have her do it with the manipulatives a couple times as well and have her explain the process. Then they do the math facts without manipulatives, and use the flash cards everyday. I think it's a good mix and a solid program and we are actually making progress with math facts! Also, for me, it's easier to add the "why" behind math to a solid traditional program than to add the solid math fact memorization and practice to a conceptual only program. I find it easier because math is around us all day how can you not! It's also used during explanations in every math lesson and we have so many math manipulatives or household items I never skimp on that part. We also read tons of math books and watch math shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mohini Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Well, I want my children to understand the method AND have the facts down. :) He already understands addition and subtraction (even multiplication and division) in theory.....BUT we are just working on quick recall of the facts. So c-rods and things like that aren't what I am looking for. We have already taught the concept pretty thouroughly. And perhaps I don't understand the CLE flashcard program, but we already do flashcards and work on them several times per day. So what is the CLE flashcard system going to give me that my current method won't? The CLE flash cards are set up with a unique lettering code to constantly rotate what you practice so that you are actually spiraling your flashcards as you go through. It could be implemented with the CLE flash cards and a TM (I don't know if CLE sells an extra supplement just for the flashcard system???) - You may also find that making a MUS style fact chart (which is basically a table of all the facts 1+1, 1+2, 1+3 etc....) and highlighting the ones your child has mastered will be a good motivational tool. It also makes it clear to the child which facts to focus on. Obviously we all want our kids to master the conceptual aspects of math AND the factual ones. My point in my earlier post was that wrote memorization of math facts facilitates the comprehension and application of abstract concepts when they are introduced. Having multiple strategies for approaching an addition problem is only relevant when a student is proficient in manipulating the numbers. If every small fact has to be calculated things become complicated as those abstract strategies build up. IMO proficiency comes from repetition and practice of facts. I also think that there are 2 approaches to meet the goal of factual and conceptual comprehension. The first is to memorize the facts and then introduce divergent thinking. The second is to begin with the abstraction and add the facts as you go. I don't know that either one is better or worse but it does seem to me that the first strategy is more "classical" in nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I also think that there are 2 approaches to meet the goal of factual and conceptual comprehension. The first is to memorize the facts and then introduce divergent thinking. The second is to begin with the abstraction and add the facts as you go. I don't know that either one is better or worse but it does seem to me that the first strategy is more "classical" in nature. :thumbup: :iagree: :thumbup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmasc Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 For anyone wanting extra info on the CLE flash card system, I'll tell you what I know. :) The box of flash cards comes with a pamphlet that explains how to use the system, and states that it can be used apart from their math curriculum. It states that "In a school year of 170 days, this system should ensure that the student thoroughly masters the addition and subtraction facts through 10 in the first year, and has been exposed to the facts through 20. In the second year, the student is expected to master the facts through 20." The way this is actually implemented is by starting with Unused Facts being moved to New Facts (should be reviewed several times a day). There are day-to-day instructions telling you when to take a card from Unused Facts to New Facts. Then they get moved to Once a Day Facts, and eventually Mon, Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri reviews which are just once a week. The system instructs you on what cards to use and move to each section. However, it encourages you to not hesitate on taking a card from weekly, back to once a day (or whatever) if the student gets rusty. The pamphlet has each day numbered, with the fact(s) listed for that day, and instructions on where to 'move from' and 'move to'. The only thing I see not listed on the pamphlet that is written in my TM is the recommended spacing of the drills. The TM states that 'Spacing drills out enhances students' learning of facts. Several three-minute drills throughout the day are better than one 15-minute drill.' It also states to not let students guess at the answers. Simply provide the answer and review the fact. Ok, so that about covers it I think. :) In my home, we did not have a systematic method to flash cards or drilling. We'd do the Singapore lesson, along with the mental math sheet. A few times a week I would use some flash cards. So, switching to this system of *daily* flash cards and the spiral review of them has worked wonders for us. Obviously, if you feel you are already doing a thorough job of flash cards review and it's not working, then I don't think CLE will be magically different. :) I hope all that helps someone, anyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoHomeschooler Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I will be forever thankful that I read about that book on this forum. Two Plus Two Is Not Five (I think I took NASDAQ's recommendation to buy it). I stopped and had my son complete the entire book before going on to Singapore 2A. He struggled at the end of 1B because he hadn't yet memorized his addition and multiplication facts and he would complain because it was too many steps for him to first work out making tens when having to work on multidigit addition and subtraction. He whizzed through 2A after completing the entire book as he really did memorize his math facts. Several times I thought to myself, how do kids complete 2A without knowing their math facts down cold, it must take a long time to finish some pages. My son is finishing 2B while at the same time completing the companion multiplication book (only 10 more pages to go). I read about it here, also! One of the best recommendations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadowlark Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I feel like a broken record, but the workbook Two Plus Two is Not Five has been excellent in helping my daughter get her math facts down. It was a huuuuuge improvement for us. The book can be purchased on Amazon for about $20, and can be copied for multiple students. I love this book so much, I'm buying the multiplication sequel. Can anyone tell me exactly how you use this book? I looked it up on amazon but couldn't get a good feel for how it would fit into our daily Singapore lessons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAttachedMama Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 My kids are loving using Timez Attack, the addition game, to get their addition facts memorized. I used xtramath.com for a whole year, and while they made progress, it wasnt nearly as good as timez attack. I bought a three month subscription and it took a week for my second grader to memorize all the addition facts. It adjusts to how fast your kid types, and works on little groups of facts at a time. It's the only video game my kids have ever played, and they love it. See, I did a free trial of timez attack and it kept crashing on my comptuer. We are a mac family....so perhaps that was it? It would lock up constantly and I would have to restart my computer to get it to do anything. So frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 My dd has done much better with songs to memorize math facts. And reciting them aloud. Though I have her do copywork too or just fill in a table occasionally. She always seems to plateau out in the low 90s on xtramath for months and months, so we shift gears and do something else. We do like Right Start games too, but they are not systematic review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAttachedMama Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 Just a follow up question..... I think that some of you hit the nail on the head: xtra math TESTS, but doesn't necessarily teach the math facts. Now that I've had some time to mull this over, I think I need to come up with a strategy that is going to give my son some more "input" instead of just asking him for output over and over again. (Does that make sense?) I have actually been looking at the "Two Plus Two is Not Five" book for some time. (It has been in my amazon wish list forever.) For those of you who own the book, is it possible to use this method without requiring MORE writing? In other words, could I use the book to teach my son the strategies---and then somehow test his understanding orally (orally answer worksheets, test/review with flashcards, or xtramath?) Would that work? I've also looked at addition the fun way and did the sample with my son. He liked the stories, but admited that it didn't help him remember the facts. So I don't think that method is going to be right for him. I'm also researching more into CLE. I don't really want to jump ship in math...but I am going to check it out more. :) Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintinative Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Not sure if this is helpful but this is what we have tried so far: Xtramath Reflex Math plain old flashcards (from Saxon I think--a friend gave them to me) Big Brainz Timez Attack (paid version) So far my DS7 hated xtramath and reflexmath, tolerated but took forever at flashcards, and LOVED the subtraction module in Timez Attack. It is set up like a video game. Retention wise it seems to be working, although you should know that we spent almost a year in XtraMath and at least a year in Reflex and flashcards before we went to it. =) DS7 hates timed stuff and although there is a time component to Big Brainz, it doesn't bother him as much. My oldest DS8 has done all of these and done well with all but also likes the Big Brainz the best so far. I appreciated people's comments on the retention and focus of the drill program. We use MIF and MIF does not drill math facts so I have had to supplement. It has worked so far but I think annual review will be required no matter what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoHomeschooler Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Can anyone tell me exactly how you use this book? I looked it up on amazon but couldn't get a good feel for how it would fit into our daily Singapore lessons. I used it daily, one page, front and back. I used it in addition to Singapore. It teaches a new 'trick,' as it's called, almost every page, then reviews previously learned 'tricks.' The 'tricks' are little mental cues that help them learn the math facts. The facts are taught conceptually, and then continuously reviewed. It really does not take long to do the pages. My daughter whipped them out in about 10-15 minutes. I am able to use the tricks to help cue her if she forgets something. For instance, if she says "What's 6+2?" All I have to say is "That's a 2 ladder trick, remember?",and she instantly recalls the fact. In a addition to the problem sets, it is expected to use flash cards to practice the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoHomeschooler Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Just a follow up question..... I think that some of you hit the nail on the head: xtra math TESTS, but doesn't necessarily teach the math facts. Now that I've had some time to mull this over, I think I need to come up with a strategy that is going to give my son some more "input" instead of just asking him for output over and over again. (Does that make sense?) I have actually been looking at the "Two Plus Two is Not Five" book for some time. (It has been in my amazon wish list forever.) For those of you who own the book, is it possible to use this method without requiring MORE writing? In other words, could I use the book to teach my son the strategies---and then somehow test his understanding orally (orally answer worksheets, test/review with flashcards, or xtramath?) Would that work? I've also looked at addition the fun way and did the sample with my son. He liked the stories, but admited that it didn't help him remember the facts. So I don't think that method is going to be right for him. I'm also researching more into CLE. I don't really want to jump ship in math...but I am going to check it out more. :) Thanks! I don't see why most Two Plus Two couldn't be done orally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nart Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I had my oldest son do a page front and back a day - 7 days a week for four months. There are around 230 pages, so that is 115 days, if you complete the front and the back side /30 = approximately four months. I think there is something to having your child write down the answer. I think it helps with automaticity when they have to go on and do multi-digit/ mulit-step problems later on. You can also add flashcards and do that beforehand for five minutes orally. Really I think it depends on whether you have a "Teflon" or "Flypaper" kid when it comes to math facts. I was a Flypaper kid with math facts. I was the first student in my second grade class to complete 100 addition and subtraction problems in 5 minutes (my mom stuck the certificate in a photo album). I don't think I would have needed the book. The facts just "stuck to me". My husband was a Teflon kid and math facts just didn't stick. He still has to count up or down or think a few seconds to answer some multiplication facts. He remembers never going to get to watch a movie on Friday with the kids who memorized their facts. He was stuck all year in third grade getting extra practice on Fridays. My oldest is like my husband. It took a lot for addition and subtraction facts to stick. We played games, did tons of math including first grade Singapore and Japanese Math, and some Miquon and MEP. He never would have just picked them up from going along in the Singapore book. He needed repetitive, direct practice over and over again. The best thing I did for him in math was to stop and concentrate on math facts for the past year. He has memorized his addition and subtraction facts and is almost there with multiplication. I know he will fly through SM2B and SM3 because he has his facts down cold. My 5 year old I think won't need much practice because he seems to just pick them up. Just by playing card games and games with dice he seems to have almost memorized facts to 10. I think many of the people on this forum who cringe when anyone mentions doing boring drill to memorize math facts have Flypaper kids who just have an easier time picking up and remembering math facts. Perhaps their kids were able to memorize facts by playing games, but many kids don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebbyribs Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 One thing I haven't seen mentioned on this thread is that XtraMath has an option to change the program so that the student gets 6 seconds per problem, rather than 3 seconds. Changing the time limit was a huge help for my daughter because she couldn't manage to type in a 2-digit number within 3 seconds even if her fact recall was fast enough. Just mentioning it in case the typing is part of why your son isn't making progress in XtraMath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAttachedMama Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 I changed my son and daughter to "6 second" program. I will have to see if this makes any difference. (I am wondering if a 6 second recall time is 'fast enough' to consider having the facts down.) I also ordered "Two Plus Two Is Not Five"....just to read up on the strategies they teach children. I'm at least glad to have a plan now. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mothergooseof4 Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Timez Attack...kids love it, are learning, and all operations are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamabear2three Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 we like medieval math and math evolve on the tablet. I also found some great games on www.mathsticks.com that my daughter enjoyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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