Students with Dyscalculia...do they ever master "mental math"?

[sweetpea3829]

My DD8 has dyscalculia.  I'm just wondering...for those of you who have somewhat older kiddos with it, did they ever accomplish mental math strategies?  Things like making a ten or making a five to make adding/subtracting easier.  Or recognizing that, in 13-8, you can subtract the 8 from the ten.  

 

I'm mostly just curious.  My daughter has very little cognitive flexibility with this kind of stuff, if any at all.  But she's only 8 so who knows if her cognitive flexibility will increase as she gets older and more experienced with numbers.  

 

It seems like many curricula today are focused on teaching kids mental math strategies.  And for NT kids, this is fine.  But I have to skip a lot of it for her because she barely understands the straightforward concepts.  

[VinNY]

Yes but it took a lot of repetition and time. Visual aides, manipulatives, die, number lines etc  My dtr is almost 13 and we worked on mental math with SAXON 65 over the summer. I never thought we would get there:)

[OneStepAtATime]

I think this really depends on the child.  Some just seem to need tons of repetition, time and different approaches, including visual aids, practical application, etc..  Others seem to need all of that but also time and maturity.  Still others don't seem to ever really get there.  

 

My DD14 has slowly made progress with seeing math patterns.  We have been using Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulty with Numbers coupled with the British maths program Dynamo Math.  It HAS helped.  She isn't a whiz at math computation but she is getting better.  Some concepts seem to come quite naturally to her.  But others just don't.  They don't compute.  We are still working on it.  

 

I don't know that anyone can give you a difinitive answer.  Different children have different underlying issues and co-morbid issues and strengths.  Different personalities will also affect the landscape.  All of that will factor in.  I do not know how well DD will function in the long run.  She is going into 8th grade but is not at 8th grade level math.  But we have definitely made progress.  Finally.  It gives us both hope.  The bigger issue right now is her developmental stage, TBH.  At 14 she does not want to be doing basic math with Mom.  She wants to do advanced math with someone else as teacher.  We are working to find a compromise.  

 

FWIW, my husband, who is dyslexic and dysgraphic, was terrible at elementary math skills but did great with things like Geometry and Calculus and is a very successful engineer, and uses math quite a bit.  But he still gets time mixed up upon occasion, among other things.   :).

 

 

[Heathermomster]

Yes, my DS can perform mental math very well.  RB strategies have been huge for him.   He struggles with long division and dividing decimals, estimation, and numerical processes with many steps. 

[sweetpea3829]

I think this really depends on the child.  Some just seem to need tons of repetition, time and different approaches, including visual aids, practical application, etc..  Others seem to need all of that but also time and maturity.  Still others don't seem to ever really get there.  

 

My DD14 has slowly made progress with seeing math patterns.  We have been using Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulty with Numbers coupled with the British maths program Dynamo Math.  It HAS helped.  She isn't a whiz at math computation but she is getting better.  Some concepts seem to come quite naturally to her.  But others just don't.  They don't compute.  We are still working on it.  

 

I don't know that anyone can give you a difinitive answer.  Different children have different underlying issues and co-morbid issues and strengths.  Different personalities will also affect the landscape.  All of that will factor in.  I do not know how well DD will function in the long run.  She is going into 8th grade but is not at 8th grade level math.  But we have definitely made progress.  Finally.  It gives us both hope.  The bigger issue right now is her developmental stage, TBH.  At 14 she does not want to be doing basic math with Mom.  She wants to do advanced math with someone else as teacher.  We are working to find a compromise.  

 

FWIW, my husband, who is dyslexic and dysgraphic, was terrible at elementary math skills but did great with things like Geometry and Calculus and is a very successful engineer, and uses math quite a bit.  But he still gets time mixed up upon occasion, among other things.   :).

 

More or less, I was wondering if this area of math is even something I should be thinking about approaching with her.  Not necessarily now, but in the future.  Because honestly, right now, one of our goals is to get her to a proficiency in math that will enable her to pass mandatory testing in 5th and 7th grades.  Accomplishing that means addressing several key areas of weakness for her.  

 

Right now, my focus is to help her master basic number sense because she still really struggles with counting.  Especially counting backwards, and especially when it involves crossing a number threshold (such as 52, 51, 50, 49, 48).  Today, I wrote a number for her and asked her to count backwards by one.  I drew a line for each number, and a small arrow with -1 to help her with the spatial directionality that she struggles with when it comes to numbers and number lines.  She gave me 52, 51, she got the 50 and then...tears and frustration.  I had her build 50 with her MUS blocks and "take one away".  She did (annoyed) and took a ten away, and then another ten, so she had 52, 51, 50, 40, 30.  So we talked about that and I stressed that it was ONE SINGLE she should take away and she insisted that she couldn't, of course, because there weren't any "singles" to take away.  (She does know how to subtract, but she struggles with generalizing math knowledge and strategies).  We finally got to 49 and then 48 but WHEW!  

 

Counting money is a similar struggle because that involves skip counting and it requires flexibility in switching from one skip count quantity to another.  She really has a hard time with it, but I've worked with her long enough to know that she will eventually "get it".  

 

I just can't see, right now, her ever having the ability to think about numbers as parts and wholes and then using that ability to mentally calculate even basic equations.  

 

 

As to your bolded part...I hear this all of the time, lol.  Persons with math LDs or other LDs that find higher level math to be quite easy.  I don't know if DD will have that experience, as I do not yet see any evidence that ANYTHING academic is going to come easy for her.  But I do know that my husband, who has similar LDs to DD, has had that experience.  Math was a big struggle for him, but yet he excelled at drafting and would have made a fine engineer if he hadn't dropped out of high school.  Still though, when he is building something and he has to do any kind of calculation...he will always ask me to do it for him.  He does fine with telling time, but cannot compute time, nor can he "feel" time.  And he confuses the order of the months of the year.  

 

So anyways...I was just curious for DD.  Mental math isn't a focus right now, of course...but its something we will consider in the future.  

[OneStepAtATime]

You might read the book "My 13th Winter", not because it will give you any answers but because it might help you understand your child's struggles better.  It was written by a woman with Dyscalculia.  

 

My daughter and my DH have a very poor sense of the passage of time and struggled with calculating elapsed time.  But DH now has everything in an electronic calendar on his phone that automatically pairs with his computer and his watch.  Alarms go off all the time to warn him that it is time to do something so he usually functions quite well now.

 

Have you looked at Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulty with Numbers?  Many here have used it or are using it and quite a few have found that it helped.

[Momofeat]

My dd(15) has dyscalculia. She is now finally starting to do a few calculations in her head.

 

MUS did not work for her.

 

In 5th grade, she was 2 years behind in math, and Right Start math was the one that finally got her moving forward again. You might want to check it out, if you haven't already. I REALLY wish I had discovered it when my dd was only 8!

[Heathermomster]

Over the weekend, I was reading the Making Math Real website wishing that I could attend all of their math teaching coursework. I found the following paragraph interesting:

NM

 

The author of the above quote maintains that the maths disabled student must be specifically taught sensory-cognitive tools in under to strengthen math proficiency, and that no amount of time alone will fix the deficits.

 

I personally do not know what sensory-cognitive tools the author speaks of; however, I would love to know and perhaps geodob will have an opinion. MMR may be hack webste. I just don't know.

 

I started very specifically working on mental math when DS was 11 yo in 5th grade. I backed up to subitizing and went forward from there using everything I learned from RB, David Sousa, and my own math knowledge. When DS was younger, he had a terrible time with money and time problems. We are currently doing MUS Algebra and he finally sees a purpose for LCM.

[Heathermomster]

OK, the founder of MMR created free YouTube

to explain the sensory-cognitive tools he feels are necessary for math development. 

 

ETA:  I just watched the majority of these videos and the program becomes a dud after Ch 12.  I like the way he explains numbers and teaches place value.  He does not cover basic subitizing at all and his symbol imaging turns into rote memorization with his "nine lines".  RB covers computational concepts much better.

[Princess Ariel]

I found this article that gives somewhat of an explanation:

 

http://www.ldonline.org/article/5647/

[geodob]

You wrote about: ' her ever having the ability to think about numbers as parts and wholes.'

Where you might like to try something?

Form a fist with your left hand, with your palm facing up.

 

Then extend your little finger. 

With this digit as one.

Then extend the next finger alongside it.

 

Followed by extending the next finger alongside them.

Then extend the last finger.

 

Next, put you hand under the table.   Then extend your fingers from one to four.

But importantly as you do this?  Feel it as you do it.

With your fingers touching each other as you extend them.

You will probably feel them firstly as a single digit, and then as groups of 2, then 3 and then 4.

 

Where the important thing, is that 2,3 and 4, are felt as groups of fingers.

With Dyscalculia, people don't concieve of 2 or 3 or 4 as different sized groups.

But with 2 or 3 or 4 fingers touching alongside each other?

They can feel these different sized groups.

 

But for 5, we form a fist again and then extend the thumb.

Which introduces the concept of a group of 5, being represented by a single thumb.

 

With only the thumb extended, as 5.

The fingers can then be extended one by one, for 6,7,8 and 9.

So that these numbers can be felt in the left hand.

 

But for 10, this needs to be carried?

Which is carried over to the right hand.

Where we start again by extending the little finger for 10.

Then extending the next 3 fingers for 20, 30 and 40.

With the thumb as 50.

Then use the finger again, for 60, 70, 80 and 90.

 

So that we can count up to 99 using the thumbs and fingers.

 

The toes on the left foot, can then be used to concieve of hundreds.

 

But the way that this is used with Dyscalculia?

Is to begin with physically practice forming numbers this way.

Up to the point at which they can be formed automatically.

Where the hands and fingers no longer have to be used?

As the numbers are 'felt'.

Addition and subtraction are felt.

[sweetpea3829]

You might read the book "My 13th Winter", not because it will give you any answers but because it might help you understand your child's struggles better.  It was written by a woman with Dyscalculia.  

 

My daughter and my DH have a very poor sense of the passage of time and struggled with calculating elapsed time.  But DH now has everything in an electronic calendar on his phone that automatically pairs with his computer and his watch.  Alarms go off all the time to warn him that it is time to do something so he usually functions quite well now.

 

Have you looked at Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulty with Numbers?  Many here have used it or are using it and quite a few have found that it helped.

 

I have Ronit Bird on my radar.  I'm over budget right now in the curricula department, but next year, I'm going to take a closer look at Ronit Bird's books.  

 

My 13th Winter has been suggested to me before, as well.  

[sweetpea3829]

My dd(15) has dyscalculia. She is now finally starting to do a few calculations in her head.

 

MUS did not work for her.

 

In 5th grade, she was 2 years behind in math, and Right Start math was the one that finally got her moving forward again. You might want to check it out, if you haven't already. I REALLY wish I had discovered it when my dd was only 8!

 

MUS has helped DD learn procedural math.  Its the only thing she's really learned, but she is, at least, learning how to follow math procedures.  Her conceptual understanding of math is pretty much nil.  

 

I have considered Right Start, and have not ruled it out.  But there are two things that hold me back...for one, DD IS making progress with MUS. 

 

But also, I have invested a LOT of money in different math curricula for DD.  And the thought of chucking MUS for yet ANOTHER curriculum just isn't very appealing.  

[sweetpea3829]

Over the weekend, I was reading the Making Math Real website wishing that I could attend all of their math teaching coursework.   I found the following paragraph interesting:

 

 The author of the above quote maintains that the maths disabled student must be specifically taught sensory-cognitive tools in under to strengthen math proficiency, and that no amount of time alone will fix the deficits.    

 

I personally do not know what sensory-cognitive tools the author speaks of; however, I would love to know and perhaps geodob will have an opinion.  MMR may be hack webste.  I just don't know.

 

I started very specifically working on mental math when DS was 11 yo in 5th grade.   I backed up to subitizing and went forward from there using everything I learned from RB, David Sousa, and my own math knowledge.  When DS was younger, he had a terrible time with money and time problems.  We are currently doing MUS Algebra and he finally sees a purpose for LCM.  

 

This was actually very interesting.  I've wondered how much of my daughter's struggles will "change" as she hits puberty and her cognitive development increases.  It's well known that children develop cognitively quite a bit in their teens.  For example, the ability to think abstractly doesn't fully develop until puberty.  

[sweetpea3829]

You wrote about: ' her ever having the ability to think about numbers as parts and wholes.'

Where you might like to try something?

Form a fist with your left hand, with your palm facing up.

 

Then extend your little finger. 

With this digit as one.

Then extend the next finger alongside it.

 

Followed by extending the next finger alongside them.

Then extend the last finger.

 

Next, put you hand under the table.   Then extend your fingers from one to four.

But importantly as you do this?  Feel it as you do it.

With your fingers touching each other as you extend them.

You will probably feel them firstly as a single digit, and then as groups of 2, then 3 and then 4.

 

Where the important thing, is that 2,3 and 4, are felt as groups of fingers.

With Dyscalculia, people don't concieve of 2 or 3 or 4 as different sized groups.

But with 2 or 3 or 4 fingers touching alongside each other?

They can feel these different sized groups.

 

But for 5, we form a fist again and then extend the thumb.

Which introduces the concept of a group of 5, being represented by a single thumb.

 

With only the thumb extended, as 5.

The fingers can then be extended one by one, for 6,7,8 and 9.

So that these numbers can be felt in the left hand.

 

But for 10, this needs to be carried?

Which is carried over to the right hand.

Where we start again by extending the little finger for 10.

Then extending the next 3 fingers for 20, 30 and 40.

With the thumb as 50.

Then use the finger again, for 60, 70, 80 and 90.

 

So that we can count up to 99 using the thumbs and fingers.

 

The toes on the left foot, can then be used to concieve of hundreds.

 

But the way that this is used with Dyscalculia?

Is to begin with physically practice forming numbers this way.

Up to the point at which they can be formed automatically.

Where the hands and fingers no longer have to be used?

As the numbers are 'felt'.

Addition and subtraction are felt.

Thank you for chiming in Geo.  I will work on this with DD.