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If You Had to Start All Over From Square 1 wrt Algebra 1...


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How would you go about doing so? I feel like the past 2 years have been a complete and utter waste. DD did Singapore DM 7 with Horizons Pre-Algebra, then a quick run-through of selected units from MEP years 7-9, then most of DM 8A plus some of Lial's Beginning Algebra. She hit a wall with multiplying polynomials/FOIL so I shelved algebra to have her work through a consumer math text (Larson's "Math and You").

 

I wasn't sure which algebra 1 topics DD had mastered and which she still needed work on, so I had her take the Let's Go Learn Algebra 1 assessment today. She scored a mere 27.3% correct and has not mastered ANY of the 11 topics. The only things she could do were the most basic "solve a system of linear equation by using substitution" and "graph an equation" type problems.

 

At the time, I thought DD was learning something from the work she was doing in Singapore but clearly she didn't. So I need something radically different but I don't know what. TabletClass? Thinkwell? Saxon?

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I would actually expect this if she hasn't done algebra in a while. Most students forget (on average) a semester of math for every year they're not using it, and IIRC, the consumer math doesn't use much of it. Just because she doesn't remember it now doesn't mean she didn't learn it at the time.

 

I *would* start over (and don't really have a specific suggestion) but I would also be very, very surprised if she isn't able to go through the beginning a lot more quickly this time, with at least some "Oh, yeah, NOW I remember that!"

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Let's take a glass half full view... Does she pass the AoPS post test for Pre-A, or something similar? Don't think of those years as failed algebra, but as highly enriched pre-a.

 

In that case, you have an unquestionably rigorous base for algebra. As a rising 7th grader she is still on track even in hyper-competitive California. She has a stronger base than most kids... Use Jacobs, Foerester, Dolciani, etc and she should be able to move forward at a typical PS rate, if that is your priority.  

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Let's take a glass half full view... Does she pass the AoPS post test for Pre-A, or something similar? Don't think of those years as failed algebra, but as highly enriched pre-a.

 

In that case, you have an unquestionably rigorous base for algebra. As a rising 7th grader she is still on track even in hyper-competitive California. She has a stronger base than most kids... Use Jacobs, Foerester, Dolciani, etc and she should be able to move forward at a typical PS rate, if that is your priority.  

 

This is the right approach.  You've built depth.  With AoPS pre-a, the kids do quite a bit of algebra, so the post-test would give you a pretty good assessment.

 

Going into a traditional algebra course is not the end of the world.  We are helping a kid who struggled with algebra, by taking her through the AoPS intro to algebra book.  It covers algebra 1 and 2, so we call it "extra depth."  It works really well in that context.  Other kids do well with a tried-and-true book like those mentioned above. 

 

Above all, don't fret it -- just count the earlier exercises as warm-ups that will lead to a strong foundation when it is reviewed.

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I would have her take an algebra assessment through ALEKS (you can do a free trial) to see where her strong and weak points are.  The free trial lasts for 48 hours so she can work on the areas she is weak in during that time period, and you can focus your energies on those areas with regard to curriculum.

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I found a cheap copy of Barron's "Forgotten Algebra" self-teaching guide at the local Half Price Books this evening. It's designed as a refresher course prior to taking an admissions test or college placement exam. Some of the material we never got to in Singapore DM so we're not going to be using the whole thing. But I think this will be the most time-efficient way of reviewing the topics that were covered in DM 7 & 8A.

 

Pre-algebra I think she has a decent grasp of, but I did print out some algebra 1 placement tests just to be sure.

 

Starting Algebra 1 over isn't the issue so much as feeling thrown for a loop that the program I thought was basically working fine turned out not to be.

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Starting Algebra 1 over isn't the issue so much as feeling thrown for a loop that the program I thought was basically working fine turned out not to be.

It could be that the test is computer based instead. Just a careless mistake on an adaptive test will bring the score down compare to a non-adaptive one.

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We also used Singapore (DM 1,2, part of 3A). If I felt that my dd had not really learned from that approach, I would go with a more traditional book that does just algebra. Since I have a Foerester's, I would probably use that, or I might track down a Dociani Algebra.

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I don't have any suggestions, but is this an "age" thing?  My daughter is the same age as yours (also doing Algebra 1) and she is having serious problems this year.  It started this spring.  I mean, I am to the point where I am thinking about giving her the year off or unschooling.  Her head is in outer space.  She doesn't want to do anything that isn't science.  She sighs in despair the second school books land on the dinner table.  

 

Is there a slump at age 12?

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Do you think it was a test design issue or do you believe it is an actual comprehension of what was being taught issue?   I know that I know the difference when I look at my kids' work.   Having read your posts the yrs, I suspect you have an educated opinion why those results occurred.

 

What sort of approach do you see providing her with success?  I would focus on how you think she will learn and retain for the direction of course selection.   FWIW, I have a dd that I used MIF's course A with (which I think is similar to DM?)   I did not use it exclusively b/c I know if I had she would not have retained what she was doing.   It's methodology is far too abstract too much of the time for her.   She needs simple, concrete practice interspersed with the conceptual instruction.   Just a thought in case that might help in your future selection.

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I don't have any suggestions, but is this an "age" thing?  My daughter is the same age as yours (also doing Algebra 1) and she is having serious problems this year.  It started this spring.  I mean, I am to the point where I am thinking about giving her the year off or unschooling.  Her head is in outer space.  She doesn't want to do anything that isn't science.  She sighs in despair the second school books land on the dinner table.  

 

Is there a slump at age 12?

 

I would do an organized review, probably just by starting at the beginning of an alg 1 text.  For material you know she has already covered, perhaps only a review is in order; use chapter reviews, pausing and returning to individual lessons wherever needed.  I so understand the frustration but try not to fret.  It'll be ok.

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Singapore Primary Math worked well for her. DM is a lot more challenging than PM and that is why I was pairing it with another text (Horizons pre-a for DM 7 and Lial's for DM 8A). It's entirely possible that it was going over her head and she was relying too much on having the explanations in the textbook right in front of her while doing the problem sets.

 

A bad attitude towards math is a big part of the issue as well. She has always disliked the subject (because she actually has to work at it) but since we got past the part of math that is actually used in real life outside of STEM careers, it's been a million times worse.

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My dd13 did AoPS for Prealgebra and Algebra - she's up to chapter 19 (logarithms).  Near the end of the school year I had her do an online SAT sample test, and I didn't feel like she'd done as well as I would have expected with that background.  I have noticed this with other areas - she grasps it fine at the time, but without ongoing review, she forgets.  She does fine if reminded - it's not completely gone - but she can't have me at her elbow through life giving little reminders.  I've decided she needs ongoing review, but something like Saxon would kill her love of math - she hates repetition and lots of problems.  I'd been giving her some review by using Pizzazz Algebra worksheets, but that would be only 1-2 topics a week, still not enough, and she didn't much like the worksheets, even though they were 'fun' puzzles.

 

I decided to have her go back and review Alg1 this summer with Khan Academy.  She likes the computer, and it cycles through different kinds of problems and even if you've 'mastered' something will throw it back in from time to time to check.  ALEKS would probably also have worked, but Khan is free.  I would not use Khan to introduce topics - she's not particularly fond of the videos, though she does sometimes use them if she's stuck.  It's helped find the areas that apparently didn't stick the first time.  She's about 80% done with the Alg1 Mastery challenge now.  

 

I've switched her to a more traditional program next year - she'll do Jacobsen Geometry.  Obviously I don't want her to take any time off of the Algebra, so I'll have her start the Alg2 challenge whenever she finishes Alg1 (a lot of it should still be review, since AoPS includes a lot of Alg2), and have her do 15 min a day in addition to the Geometry.  Because I still want her to stretch her problem-solving, she's also agreed to do at least 10 minutes or 1 problem of Alcumus per day.  Don't know if this is the solution, but she seems to like it.  Last night she asked to do more Khan Academy instead of reading before bed...

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It sounds like your daughter's at a perfect place to start Algebra 1.  She had a great preview of some topics in algebra and geometry and she's totally ready to tackle them with greater depth and understanding and maturity.  My daughter sounds really similar -- a bright 12 year old who dislikes math.  I didn't want to stress her, so I had her do a few years of pre-algebra and problem solving and easy algebra. I've been really happy with her progress.   Each topic has been covered several times in different materials.  Now that we're starting Algebra 1 officially, I'm finding it's almost entirely review. Which is great!   I'd rather she had a rock solid knowledge of algebra and have done extra review, than to have missed or not been ready to understand something in a race to accelerate to higher math.  

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Starting Algebra 1 over isn't the issue so much as feeling thrown for a loop that the program I thought was basically working fine turned out not to be.

 

I hear you. We were going so well with DM7, and then there just seemed to be a lack of retention.  So we have currently switched to MEP to strengthen his PreA skills before tackling DM again.  I am a bit concerned to hear about the disappointing results that your dd had with DM because you have always been such a fan of the program.  sigh.  Perhaps it is just that our kids were too young for the level they got to in math?

 

Ruth in NZ

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Perhaps it is just that our kids were too young for the level they got to in math?

There is not enough drill in DM. I don't think there is enough drill in AoPS either. Factorisation (ETA: quadratic equations) ease and speed comes with lots of practice just to give an example.

 

Math in Asia may be conceptual but it is generally followed by lots of drill (ETA: I mean review drills for end of year exams, O levels and A levels).

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I hear you. We were going so well with DM7, and then there just seemed to be a lack of retention.  So we have currently switched to MEP to strengthen his PreA skills before tackling DM again.  I am a bit concerned to hear about the disappointing results that your dd had with DM because you have always been such a fan of the program.  sigh.  Perhaps it is just that our kids were too young for the level they got to in math?

 

Ruth in NZ

 

I *do* like the program- I just think that my DD is not the right type of student for it. I knew that she wasn't AoPS or eIMACS material but I thought that she could handle the challenge level in DM. And maybe she could've if she'd been really super-motivated to master it rather than Ms. Bad Attitude.

 

Taking her through it was good for ME as a teacher but in retrospect I should've gone with Jacobs or Forester or Dolciani or another program.

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I *do* like the program- I just think that my DD is not the right type of student for it. I knew that she wasn't AoPS or eIMACS material but I thought that she could handle the challenge level in DM. And maybe she could've if she'd been really super-motivated to master it rather than Ms. Bad Attitude.

 

Taking her through it was good for ME as a teacher but in retrospect I should've gone with Jacobs or Forester or Dolciani or another program.

 

I did DM1(7) with one of my twins.  I loved it, especially the workbook with all the hard problems!  We got through it fine, but she moved to Foerster's the next year for Algebra, at her request.  She also didn't want to do AoPS (which I also love).  She did have very good retention with the Foerster's and was able to easily pass the placement test to go into honors level math at the high school.

 

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Ds11.8 started DM 1 over a week ago. I had to be there for him all the time. The problems can be very hard with not enough scaffolding and step by step help. Being mathy myself, I know how to solve the problems and guide ds to the solution. after a few days' use, I finally bought Jacob's Elementary Algebra, hoping it is gentler and easier for ds. I am still waiting for it to arrive. Ds used Singapore Primary Math all the way from K to 6. Then he did 3/4 of Dolciani Prealgebra. Because of Crimson Wife and Ruth and a few other fans of DM, I bought DM and tried it. A few days ago I decided we would use Jacob's algebra as spine and add in some DM for enrichment and call it good.

I also feel that we are going in circles. Ds11.8 is like my guinea pig. Ds9.7 has much less trial and error time because I know better when it is his turn. As a result, now he is only 1 grade behind ds 11.8.

However, when I read Jacob's geometry, I found the proof is so weak that it is very boring. Where are the challenging proof problems? Are there any in the book?

Sorry for the side track.

Crimson Wife, I hope you find a good way to help dd review and recall what she already learned and move on with a solid math for her.

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I hear you. We were going so well with DM7, and then there just seemed to be a lack of retention.  So we have currently switched to MEP to strengthen his PreA skills before tackling DM again.  I am a bit concerned to hear about the disappointing results that your dd had with DM because you have always been such a fan of the program.  sigh.  Perhaps it is just that our kids were too young for the level they got to in math?

 

Ruth in NZ

 

I have really found that for DS11, slowing down quite a bit and presenting things in small chunks, then having him do just a few problems a day over several days instead of allowing him to finish off a section a day has really increased his retention.  It was tough at first, because he is one who "gets it" before I even finish explaining it, and he can do the example problems without peeking at the worked solutions, and it means we are now moving at less than a level/year instead of 2.5 levels/year like he did in Primary Math, but I am seeing a huge jump in how successful he is at remembering the material down the road since we adopted this strategy.  We are still too early in the game to talk about months or years, but it is looking good; he is doing well at applying knowledge from earlier chapters and from 7A into late 7B when he needs to without prompting much of the time now, and he feels happier with the shorter lessons.  Since he'll be through at least 8A before the end of 6th grade, I really can't complain about his pace-- where's the fire?

 

DM7 is definitely a whole different ballgame, particularly with a younger kid-- I see a big difference between how he learns and how his older brother learns, and from what I recall of how his brother learned 2.5 years ago, that is even before I adjust for any of the learning disabilities DS11 has factoring in (2E learner).

 

I'm not feeling a lack of problems, but we don't really skip them the way we did in Primary Math, either, and we are trailing behind with Life of Fred, so he'll get another round of review of the material in another year or so (he's in PreA with Bio in Fred right now).  I hate to make him use two complete programs-- older brother uses only Fred-- but this is my kid who benefits from repetition, but gets quickly bored since he picks up on things so quickly, and Fred is the perfect antidote for that, since the presentation is so different, as are the problem sets.

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There is not enough drill in DM. I don't think there is enough drill in AoPS either. Factorisation ease and speed comes with lots of practice just to give an example.

 

Math in Asia may be conceptual but it is generally followed by lots of drill (ETA: I mean review drills for end of year exams, O levels and A levels).

That's true, so I guess the question then is what to use if you do use DM or AOPS. I was talking to a popular math tutor who approaches math the AOPS way since that's what's done in China and afterwards adds in many worksheets to practice after the session. I can totally see DD needing lots of practice, so that the procedural aspects of algebra become automatic. I just don't know where to get these practice sheets. Maybe TabletClass which has worksheets after each video. We've done one video and stopped after DD complained about it being boring (that's what I get for introducing RR's videos). The practice sheets ought to be at the same rigorous level as DM and AOPS, but what I've seen is not quite the same.

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. I can totally see DD needing lots of practice, so that the procedural aspects of algebra become automatic. I just don't know where to get these practice sheets.

For topic practice Alcumus or MEP or any old textbook would help.

For general practice/mixed review, I use past years standardized tests from various states. For example I just made my older do the 2009 copyright released test questions of Algebra 1 STAR testing which is 96 questions today without prep. He had to recall what is domain and what is range but got it right.

 

ETA:

Test link for STAR testing Algebra 1

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqalgebra.pdf

 

Regents exam Aug 2014 3hr paper Algebra 1 common core

http://www.nysedregents.org/algebraone/814/algone82014-exam.pdf

June 2014

http://www.nysedregents.org/algebraone/614/algone62014-exam.pdf

Integrated Algebra Aug 1014

http://www.nysedregents.org/integratedalgebra/814/ialg82014-exam.pdf

 

ETA:

Just for fun, there is a Chinese idiom which is 熟能生巧 meaning practice makes perfect. Probably what your math tutor friend was getting at.

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Possibly this information sheet about the TTUISD CBE (Credit by Examination) for Alegbra 1A will help you to assess the knowledge or lack of knowledge that your student has with Algebra 1A. Here's the URL:

 

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/uc/cbepdf/hs/alg1a.pdf

 

TTUISD uses Prentice Hall Math textbooks (versions for Texas because of the state testing) in Middle School courses and in High School courses.  Much GL to your student!

 

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That's true, so I guess the question then is what to use if you do use DM or AOPS. I was talking to a popular math tutor who approaches math the AOPS way since that's what's done in China and afterwards adds in many worksheets to practice after the session. I can totally see DD needing lots of practice, so that the procedural aspects of algebra become automatic. I just don't know where to get these practice sheets. Maybe TabletClass which has worksheets after each video. We've done one video and stopped after DD complained about it being boring (that's what I get for introducing RR's videos). The practice sheets ought to be at the same rigorous level as DM and AOPS, but what I've seen is not quite the same.

 

The thing is, my kid won't do extra worksheets with lots of practice problems.  This is where a 'smart' online practice set (like Khan or ALEKS or Alcumus) has been great - it helps two ways - if she gets a certain kind of problem right, it lets her move on and repeats that at longer intervals.  But for things where she's having difficulty, she does have to keep repeating till she gets it right.  I think it's also been helpful with the 'sloppy errors' and 'write out all the steps'.  The software doesn't care if you have it 'almost' right.  One topic she kept having to come back to was absolute value equations.  I think the issue was mostly trying to do too much of it in her head, and making sure she did the steps in the right order every.time.  So much nicer to have the computer tell her she's wrong than me!  It doesn't get exasperated... :lol:

 

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For mixed practice at a higher conceptual level, you might like the MathCounts handbooks. They are free online (current edition here; I'm not sure if older editions are lurking on the web somewhere still), & you don't have to participate in MC to use them. Try the WarmUps and WorkOuts (solutions are given). I did these and also old MC tests that I bought in a bundle with my kids over the years.

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I remember in China that my math teacher would let us explore many ways of solving a problem. He encouraged students to go to the blackboard to solve the problem so that all students could see the steps. Then he would show us more ways to solve. We got lots of exercises to practice. We were also encouraged to solve things mentally and quickly. So speed was highly valued.

With AOPS and LOF, not enough practice is provided. So a student has to use outside sources to achieve mastery.

Singapore Primary Math has worked well for both ds. But now I think I will use both Jacob's and DM to help with both mastery and challenge.

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Math Mammoth has Algebra 1 practice sheets.

 

http://www.mathmammoth.com/worksheets/algebra_1.php

 

There's also Pizzazz. These are fun because they're puzzles with riddles or silly sayings. That might be too juvenile for some kids, but it will motivate others, ymmv. These are free:

 

http://www.kenton.k12.ky.us/userfiles/979/Classes/11562/Pizzazz%20Algebra.pdf

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There's also Pizzazz. These are fun because they're puzzles with riddles or silly sayings.

The problem I have with the Pizzazz series was that my boys rather crack the code than do the math. Luckily they are library copies so no money lost.

 

Another issue is that the Pizzazz series lacks word problems. Nice for computation drills but not for word problems practice.

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The problem I have with the Pizzazz series was that my boys rather crack the code than do the math. Luckily they are library copies so no money lost.

 

Another issue is that the Pizzazz series lacks word problems. Nice for computation drills but not for word problems practice.

 

The Pizzazz series does have word problems, at least at the Algebra level, but they're all in specific worksheets, not mixed in.  In fact, that's been the problem with Pizzazz here - it's not mixed practice, each sheet has lots of the same kind of problem, so although the practice may be review, the kid still ends up not getting enough review of different kinds of problems in a tight enough loop...

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The thing is, my kid won't do extra worksheets with lots of practice problems. This is where a 'smart' online practice set (like Khan or ALEKS or Alcumus) has been great - it helps two ways - if she gets a certain kind of problem right, it lets her move on and repeats that at longer intervals. But for things where she's having difficulty, she does have to keep repeating till she gets it right. I think it's also been helpful with the 'sloppy errors' and 'write out all the steps'. The software doesn't care if you have it 'almost' right. One topic she kept having to come back to was absolute value equations. I think the issue was mostly trying to do too much of it in her head, and making sure she did the steps in the right order every.time. So much nicer to have the computer tell her she's wrong than me! It doesn't get exasperated... :lol:

 

I keep putting Alcumus towards the back of my mind. We had to use it for the online class, but for algebra, it's a good idea to use it again. Actually, as I'm typing this, DD is back on Alcumus - apparently she likes it but I try to avoid giving too much screen time. I have to trust that mastering a topic on Alcumus really means mastering the topic. Okay, so I just noticed DD mastered algebra exponent laws with only about 5-6 problems. It doesn't take a lot of problems to get to mastery. It's not like getting 5 worksheets to take home after a tutoring lesson. I think I've been conditioned to think lots of worksheets equal speed and retention.

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I keep putting Alcumus towards the back of my mind. We had to use it for the online class, but for algebra, it's a good idea to use it again. Actually, as I'm typing this, DD is back on Alcumus - apparently she likes it but I try to avoid giving too much screen time. I have to trust that mastering a topic on Alcumus really means mastering the topic. Okay, so I just noticed DD mastered algebra exponent laws with only about 5-6 problems. It doesn't take a lot of problems to get to mastery. It's not like getting 5 worksheets to take home after a tutoring lesson. I think I've been conditioned to think lots of worksheets equal speed and retention.

 

That is the $64,000 question, isn't it?

 

Super interesting thread, BTW.

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. Drill for factors with SM starts in grade 4. By 7gr they don't need it. .

I was referring to factorization of quadratic equations. It is in DM 8 common core and DM 2 and DM 3. I do aim for my kids to factorise a quadratic equation in one variable in a minute.

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I gave DD the Horizons Algebra 1 readiness test yesterday and the Saxon Algebra 1 placement test (which I think is the Algebra 1/2 final exam) today. Based on those results, I think she is solid on pre-algebra. So she should be fine doing Algebra 1 this year.

 

I most likely will be able to borrow a copy of Saxon Algebra 1 from our charter's lending library to have on hand for mixed practice (I'm going to check next week). CLE Algebra 1 is also an inexpensive option for mixed practice if I can't get a hold of Saxon.

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I think horizons has an algebra too.  I liked that program a lot.

 

I really liked Horizons Pre-Algebra as a supplement for DM 7. I only wish the Algebra 1 set were either less expensive, secular so that I could purchase it with the charter stipend, or more widely available used. $80 is too much to pay OOP for one subject for my current budget unfortunately :-(

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At the charter library, I wound up finding copies of Saxon Algebra 1 3rd ed. and Dolciani Structure & Method Course 2 ('92 copyright), which appears to be an integrated course covering a lot of the same Algebra 1 material as DM 7-8A. 

 

The Dolciani book looks interesting and I might try the algebra chapters to see if that is a good "fit" for her. Saxon I do think she'd find unappealing but it's solid and the "spiral" format might just be what she needs to retain the material.

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The same thing happened with us. Last year, my dd11 (at the time) were happily going along in DM7. I loved it; she liked it well enough. Curious as to how she was retaining things, I had her take the Saxon placement test as well as another placement test (Horizons, maybe?) in the spring. She barely tested into 7/6. And she clearly did not remember how to do the math, although I think part of it was also the hormone brain that I've seen many moms attest to on these boards. I put her into Saxon 7/6 at the beginning of the summer, and she loves it, mostly I think because she feels more confident because of the continuous review and incremental nature of the teaching.

 

She will often come to me with light bulb moments in both math and Latin (in which I switched her over to Henle for similar reasons): "I get it now, mom!" :hurray: I should have learned my lesson in 4th grade when I put her in CLE for a time to get her math facts down and she thrived (after using Singapore).  :glare:

 

 

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The same thing happened with us. Last year, my dd11 (at the time) were happily going along in DM7. I loved it; she liked it well enough. Curious as to how she was retaining things, I had her take the Saxon placement test as well as another placement test (Horizons, maybe?) in the spring. She barely tested into 7/6. And she clearly did not remember how to do the math, although I think part of it was also the hormone brain that I've seen many moms attest to on these boards. I put her into Saxon 7/6 at the beginning of the summer, and she loves it, mostly I think because she feels more confident because of the continuous review and incremental nature of the teaching.

 

She will often come to me with light bulb moments in both math and Latin (in which I switched her over to Henle for similar reasons): "I get it now, mom!" :hurray: I should have learned my lesson in 4th grade when I put her in CLE for a time to get her math facts down and she thrived (after using Singapore). :glare:

What did you use before Henle? We are 3/4 done with Lively Latin 2. But it is getting more challenging and I have Latin Prep 1 and 2. But I don't know if it is a good fit,

For math, we did DM 1A for two weeks. I like it a lot, but it does require a lot from the student. So we started Jacob's Elementary Algebra a week ago. I love it!!! It is so gentle, logical, and interesting! Every lesson with Set I ( he does half of it), the whole Set II, and Set IV can be done in a day with not much pain. Jacobs is a wonder math teacher to guide the student in each step. There is not much teaching in the lesson because the teaching is done throughout the lesson AND exercises. Now I understand why Kai says this is her favorite math of the ten years of homeschooling. I will have ds do some DM as enrichment.

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Do you think it was a test design issue or do you believe it is an actual comprehension of what was being taught issue?   I know that I know the difference when I look at my kids' work.   Having read your posts the yrs, I suspect you have an educated opinion why those results occurred.

 

What sort of approach do you see providing her with success?  I would focus on how you think she will learn and retain for the direction of course selection.   FWIW, I have a dd that I used MIF's course A with (which I think is similar to DM?)   I did not use it exclusively b/c I know if I had she would not have retained what she was doing.   It's methodology is far too abstract too much of the time for her.   She needs simple, concrete practice interspersed with the conceptual instruction.   Just a thought in case that might help in your future selection.

 

So what would fit this bill?

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However, when I read Jacob's geometry, I found the proof is so weak that it is very boring. Where are the challenging proof problems? Are there any in the book?

 

 

Which edition of Jacobs' book are you using for Geometry?  I can't speak for the first edition but I know the second edition is more demanding with respect to proofs than the third edition.

 

Regards,

Kareni

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Which edition of Jacobs' book are you using for Geometry? I can't speak for the first edition but I know the second edition is more demanding with respect to proofs than the third edition.

 

Regards,

Kareni

The third edition.

I bought the first edition, but I haven't looked closely at it yet. Would the proof be more challenging?

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The third edition.

I bought the first edition, but I haven't looked closely at it yet. Would the proof be more challenging?

 

I haven't seen the first edition so I can't compare it to either the second or third editions of Jacobs' Geometry.  Perhaps someone else knows the answer.

 

Regards,

Kareni

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The 1st edition of Jacobs Geometry is a great book and very rigorous on proofs. I've never seen the 2nd edition... but the 1st starts of with the Spotter and Surfer introduction and then a 60+ page chapter with 11 lessons on logic and proof. It then dives more into pure geometry with plenty of proofs and fun examples for the rest of the book. It sounds *very* similar to the 2nd edition.

 

I know Mathwonk likes the 1st ed, though this may be partly due to the age of his son when he used it... Kathy likes the 2nd ed. It doesn't sound like you can go wrong with either edition. I would get whichever one is cheaper at the time. When I bought it the 1st ed was ~$18 and the 2nd ed ~$50 on amazon... currently those prices seem to be reversed.

 

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