nm

[PeterPan]

nt

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[kbutton]

Hmm. Will have to think on it. I think it is a boy thing, but even so, it needs to be worked on. Will your DH be willing to have some talks with him? I suspect that would help quite a bit.

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[Storygirl]

I can't think of a book, but the first thing that came to mind was that if your son listens to dad but not mom, that dad needs to teach him how to respond properly to mom. Because that is who he is going to listen to.

 

We don't have exactly the same issue, but I do get it. I long ago lost track of the number of times that I have said things such as, "I am a person, too. I have real feelings that can be hurt." And "You should respect me MORE than other people, not less." I think I spend a lot of time explicitly teaching my kids how to treat me, which is disheartening, because I think that they should naturally have a respect for me. I shouldn't have to teach it. Yet I do. It's hard for me to understand, because I had a great respect for all authority when I was young, and I just don't get it that everyone is not that way. I find it hard not to take it personally.

 

:grouphug:

[OneStepAtATime]

Hmmmm....I have a few random things I will ask and post.  Not certain how helpful these will be.  Feel free to ignore me completely.  :)

 

I agree, who is the rule creator and the rule enforcer, primarily?  If you ask him to do something and your husband is around, does DH back you up?  Insist that your son listen to you? Or does he take over and enforce the rule himself?   Also, if your ds refuses to do something how do you handle it?  Do you wait until your husband is around to address the issue?

 

FWIW, one of my SILs used to get so frustrated when her kids wouldn't listen to her.  But I think part of the issue was how she reacted.  Instead of creating her own consequences that she would reinforce herself, she would threaten them with things like "Wait until your father gets home" or "Your father wouldn't put up with this.  I am going to tell him that you weren't listening to me."  What this did was undermine her authority.  She was basically saying that she didn't have any and that her husband would have to be the one to deal with the situation.  Not that this is the situation in your home.  I just thought I would share in case this IS something happening.  Once she stopped falling back on her husband and started enforcing rules herself, with clearly laid out consequences, and they were agreed upon by both parents and consistently enforced it did help.  One child was not NT so there were still challenging days (well ALL parents have challenging days :) ), but it really did help.

 

At our house it is almost always me who creates rules/enforces rules, etc..  DH travels too much and is too inconsistent.  He creates rules on the fly for whatever is convenient for him at the moment but because they aren't consistent the kids don't follow them consistently.  And they sometimes challenge him more than listen to him now that they are older and are more aware of the inconsistencies, although they usually don't yell.  

 

In my home growing up there was a period of time where my dad was gone a LOT, like months at a time.  When he started spending more time at home he got so frustrated because my little brother and I honestly did not recognize him as the authority figure in our household.  We were little and didn't really remember to a time when Dad was home more and created/enforced rules.  When he would tell us to do something that was different than what Mom would normally do/request we would look to her for confirmation.  Drove him nuts.  We never yelled at him, though.  I don't know how he would have reacted if we had yelled.

 

No idea if any of that helped at all since your child is unique and has his own situation going on, which may be VASTLY different than anything I have mentioned above.

 

Hugs.  

[Harriet Vane]

Haven't read the thread, but I have to say I think it is a normal boy thing. My ds went through this when he was 4 or 5. We call that the Year Of Identifying With The Alpha Male. We did have to do a little training to remind ds that he must obey me. Some of that training came from me, and some came in the form of some stern warnings from his father.

 

Interestingly, we seem to be going through a version of it again in the early teen years. Ds hasn't been horrible, but now that he feels all grown-up he seems to also think that he knows better than me sometimes. It's something we work through as needed. He's a good kid and we have a good relationship.

[texasmama]

You might look into social stories tailored to this issue. I would also have your dh talk to him and reinforce your authority. Does your dd model disrespect of you?

[texasmama]

BTW, neither of my boys went through this any more so than my girls until my oldest hit teendom. Suddenly, I am a nincompoop unworthy of respect.

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[IsabelC]

My initial feeling is that this kind of thing is better taught by living example than by a book or some other learning resource, although of course the latter are frequently useful for reinforcing concepts. I would be thinking critically about everything your child sees and where he might have gotten the idea that dads outrank moms. If you frequently tell him "I'll have to check with dad" when he asks for things, or, as somebody posted upthread, if your response to inappropriate behavior is "Wait till your father gets home", then he is seeing inequality. If your husband/partner doesn't make a point of being respectful towards you and deferring to your opinions on certain subjects, same thing.

 

However, assuming that you, the parents, are already taking care to model an equal partnership, then it might well be about your style of parenting rather than about your role as the mother. Is it possible that you might have got into the habit of allowing your child to disrespect you, and therefore he does that because he knows he can get away with it? Most children are incredibly expert at noticing which parent is more likely to let them stay up late, or more likely to allow an extra helping of sweets, or more likely to pull them up for answering back, etc. I know that there are certain things my kids will try with me, that they wouldn't try with their father.

 

If you honestly can't identify any factors at home, it's also possible that there is influence from outside of your family. Could he be hearing things from other people, for example a neighborhood family that is more conservative than yours, and 'trying it out'?

[PeterPan]

BTW, neither of my boys went through this any more so than my girls until my oldest hit teendom. Suddenly, I am a nincompoop unworthy of respect.

THIS is an angle I hadn't pondered.  I *tend* to think it's a combo of Harriet Vane's "alpha male" thing and some rules stuck in his head.  That's how it comes across to me.  I don't wish to discuss discipline at this time, simply because it's almost 2 am and I don't wish to.  I'm a very careful, intentional disciplinarian, always have been, and we have been very intentional and careful in what we do.  As I said, I don't think it's the result of any neglect on our part but something that requires some instruction or discussion, something that will reframe the paradigm in his head.  He takes well to instruction and rules, so he just needs some new internal rules on this.  It's not really in the pervue of things they cover in Sunday school anymore, though it used to be in the old days.  

 

I like that topic list from the photo conversation cards, Canucks!  I hadn't thought to cover it that way, but you're right it could work.  That definitely gets ideas going through my head. I could also try to find a book where family roles are modeled more clearly.  It's surprising how angled many books are (the cat is the father, no mother cat needed, etc. etc.).  I'll have to scratch my head and see if we even HAVE books on that kind of FIAR level or genre that do a good job modeling family relationships.

 

I got the amazing social stories book through the library and then had to return it.  You're right, that's another good way to look.  

[Snow]

I don't think it's the result of any neglect on our part but something that requires some instruction or discussion, something that will reframe the paradigm in his head. He takes well to instruction and rules, so he just needs some new internal rules on this.

I read this earlier and didn't have any brilliant things to say about it but for what it's worth, I do think you've hit the nail on the head here. Ds went through a short phase of this around 6 and it just took me reviewing a bit about roles with him to get it. Btw, we incorporated the roles of everyone we could think of...uncles, aunts, grandparents, teachers etc.

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[PeterPan]

I read this earlier and didn't have any brilliant things to say about it but for what it's worth, I do think you've hit the nail on the head here. Ds went through a short phase of this around 6 and it just took me reviewing a bit about roles with him to get it. Btw, we incorporated the roles of everyone we could think of...uncles, aunts, grandparents, teachers etc.

This has been going on in various ways a long time.  It's not really a stage.  Like your idea of spreading the discussion further, to more types of relatives.  :)

 

 

Things like that do not come naturally to many kids on the spectrum, which is why I try to use visual resources. Had I know about the autism back when my son was acting out it would have made more sense why he was resenting rules. You don't know if you have a spectrum thing going for sure though, which was why I originally just looked for books that may cover family roles for you. I was not very lucky so if you find something in your stash of materials please share! I would love to find something age appropriate with images for my little guy.

You're correct, I haven't a clue what the evals will say.  Since Social Thinking issues seem to cross labels, at a certain point I just have to work with what I'm seeing and let the process work itself out.

[Snow]

I hope that didn't come across wrong. By short phase I mean, I think it was there quite a bit (and maybe is still at times?) but my responding to it in a teaching way was short. He got it enough for me to be mostly ok even if he's far from perfect. Coaches were a big motivator/reminder, i.e. How would you respond to your coach if he asked you this? Would this be an appropriate way to respond to coach?

 

Goodnight, fellow night owl.

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[texasmama]

THIS is an angle I hadn't pondered.  I *tend* to think it's a combo of Harriet Vane's "alpha male" thing and some rules stuck in his head.  That's how it comes across to me.  I don't wish to discuss discipline at this time, simply because it's almost 2 am and I don't wish to.  I'm a very careful, intentional disciplinarian, always have been, and we have been very intentional and careful in what we do.  As I said, I don't think it's the result of any neglect on our part but something that requires some instruction or discussion, something that will reframe the paradigm in his head.  He takes well to instruction and rules, so he just needs some new internal rules on this.  It's not really in the pervue of things they cover in Sunday school anymore, though it used to be in the old days.  

 

 

I hope another comment is okay here since the OP has been erased.

 

I think I didn't explain myself well with the "until my oldest hit teendom" comment.  I meant my oldest son.  He now butts up against me.  I see it as fairly normal posturing/separating and individuating/breaking from his opposite gender parent/etc.  When he was little, it was not an issue.  He has been the most compliant of my kids, in fact.  I meant no comment about discipline at all, just reflecting on my son's developmental stages as related to showing me respect.  I think you are correct that his internal rules need some rewriting.

 

I agree that some kids need explicit instruction, and it is a kindness to give it to them.  One of my kids needed a step by step instruction on how to properly shower.  Otherwise, he did not take soap to his underarms, just let water run over his body, leaving him exiting the shower as stinky as when he entered.  The other three of my kids intuitively knew these things once they reached showering age. 

[PeterPan]

Texasmama, you're fine. Your question about the teen influence was intriguing and I just need time to think about it and observe.  I was just taking it a little hard that when I asked for help on the LC board (not gen or chat) to teach my boy (whom I've said more than once is at least kissing the spectrum and has some spectrum-ish behaviors) more explicitly on family roles I got told I'm a doormat, a poor disciplinarian, have inadequate family life, etc. etc.  It ranks right up there with the time I was told he's going to be a psychopath.  :(

 

So whatever.  I'm trying not to make a big deal of it and just let it go.  My ds says "Yes Ma'am" and hops to it better than most NT kids I know. He just has some curious ideas stuck in his head. I think after the "your kid is a struggler learner" crack on the high school board, I'm just a little fragile or something.  Whatever.

 

Canucks, don't miss my book thread on Gen.  Mandy listed some I think will work!       Looking for a FIAR-style picture book on the topic of...    

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[Lecka]

I don't know what this book is called, I can't remember, but I saw a presentation on it through our school district.  

 

Basically it is using visual models to explain social relationships.  

 

They would have different formats, like a bullseye with things being appropriate with people closer to the center of the bullseye, and other things being appropriate with people farther from the bullseye.

 

Or it might be a pyramid.

 

But the person said for some kids it really helped them to make it concrete with very concrete labels and specific examples for the categories.

 

And then for the categories, if they were visually placed in a certain way, it would click with kids easier than with just giving them oral information or an example where the example might not click.

 

Then if you have a visual model that seems to make sense, you laminate it or have it handy.

 

Then when a situation comes up, you ask the child a series of questions (or point out that they should ask themselves a series of questions) or if they cannot think it through yet, just go back to the chart and show them on the chart.  Then it is fitting the new information into a model they have that works for them.  

 

But ideally teach them to notice when a situation is related to the chart, and teach them to use the chart.  (But at this presentation there were parents of teenagers -- so I am SURE this would be very adapted to a 5-year-old, or maybe something completely different... it was in response to a question asked by a parent of a 4th-grader iirc.)  

 

So I wonder if something like that might be good?

 

For my own son -- I would want to make sure he understands the labels of family members in a variety of situations.  Like -- have we talked about mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters, etc, in a variety of situations.  If we showed him a picture of read a book about a family, could he label who is the mother, father, sister, and brother.  I know that seems obvious -- but it might not hurt to make sure he can do that.  

 

Then he has done a lot with community helpers -- police, fire fighters, etc.  He needs to know those are adults who will help him.  

 

The he needs to know about how there are adults at school and at pre-school and at church, and he needs to listen to those people.  

 

Can he tell who is an adult and who is a child?  Can he tell the roles of adults in general?  Does he know that there are things where adults have greater experience than kids and for that reason should be listened to?  Are there logical reasons like this that might click with him?  There *are* actual reasons for adults to be in charge and children to listen to adults.  Maybe if you let him make a poor choice then that can be a learning opportunity?  Or let him try to do something "his way" and then you can point out how just from being older and having more experience in the world, you are able to help him.  If anything like that would make sense.  But I think it might make sense to come up with a list of reasons that would make sense to him or that you could point out.  It may be obvious to him -- dad is bigger.  That is obvious to a child sometimes.  Reasons to listen to you may not be as obvious and may need to be spelled out.  Not like you only do that -- also showing him through actions.  But I think some kids need really explicit explanations as well as the life experiences -- maybe they are not collating the life experiences really well or are not quite filling in the blanks from life experiences alone.  But there may be some things that really make sense to him.  Also, can he feed himself?  Clean his own clothes?  Go to the store?  These are all things where his *role as a child* mean that he needs to listen to you in your *role as an adult.*  But he may not think anything of that, it is not obvious to kids, they do not notice.  If he is crazy self-sufficient, maybe add in things where he must count on you, and those are chances for him to notice (if you point it out) how you bring good things into his life that he cannot do for himself.  I think there is a point where it is too much, but I also think, it may take being said a lot of times, it may not be something where you say it once and it sticks, b/c it may take a lot of time to really get the idea and to create the framework and then be able to add to the framework on his own.  

 

You could also talk about examples of things the older child is able to do, and is allowed to do, and talk about how the older child got from Point A to Point B and tie that in with things adults do.  Also examples with other kids he might know, of other ages, and what they are and aren't allowed to do, and why they have the life experience and maturity to begin being in charge of more and more.  And if you used a visual chart you could have it by age or stage and put people in with examples of how they should act to people older and younger (help younger people, respect older people) along with things they are and aren't allowed to do.  

 

But I have thought about this a little -- and I just question if it is more about "mom" and "dad" and not about the whole idea of "older and younger" and "why older people know more than younger people."  I know it is really common for little kids to think someone who is bigger is automatically older, too, and I don't know if it is possible to always get a 5-year-old to understand that a bigger person is not always older.  

 

He also might have some crazy idea that dad is in charge b/c he is the one who drives the car.  If he is into cars -- he might read a lot into that, when really it does not have much to do with anything.  There might be some detail that he has seized on and that could be why he has that thought process.  But just from not knowing the "real reasons."  

 

But there are probably other adults he needs to listen to, at church, other family members, etc.  So if you can fit yourself into that framework, it might be a way to go.  Not necessarily just add yourself into the family framework -- it might be *harder* b/c he might have fewer examples of this, it might be easier to fit into a framework with many examples.  Especially if he gets those frameworks!  If he does -- start there and work back to the family framework over time.  

[PeterPan]

I don't know what this book is called, I can't remember, but I saw a presentation on it through our school district.  

 

Basically it is using visual models to explain social relationships.  

 

They would have different formats, like a bullseye with things being appropriate with people closer to the center of the bullseye, and other things being appropriate with people farther from the bullseye.

 

Or it might be a pyramid.

 

But the person said for some kids it really helped them to make it concrete with very concrete labels and specific examples for the categories.

 

And then for the categories, if they were visually placed in a certain way, it would click with kids easier than with just giving them oral information or an example where the example might not click.

 

Then if you have a visual model that seems to make sense, you laminate it or have it handy.

 

Then when a situation comes up, you ask the child a series of questions (or point out that they should ask themselves a series of questions) or if they cannot think it through yet, just go back to the chart and show them on the chart.  Then it is fitting the new information into a model they have that works for them.  

 

But ideally teach them to notice when a situation is related to the chart, and teach them to use the chart.  (But at this presentation there were parents of teenagers -- so I am SURE this would be very adapted to a 5-year-old, or maybe something completely different... it was in response to a question asked by a parent of a 4th-grader iirc.)  

 

So I wonder if something like that might be good?

 

For my own son -- I would want to make sure he understands the labels of family members in a variety of situations.  Like -- have we talked about mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters, etc, in a variety of situations.  If we showed him a picture of read a book about a family, could he label who is the mother, father, sister, and brother.  I know that seems obvious -- but it might not hurt to make sure he can do that.  

 

Then he has done a lot with community helpers -- police, fire fighters, etc.  He needs to know those are adults who will help him.  

 

The he needs to know about how there are adults at school and at pre-school and at church, and he needs to listen to those people.  

 

Can he tell who is an adult and who is a child?  Can he tell the roles of adults in general?  Does he know that there are things where adults have greater experience than kids and for that reason should be listened to?  Are there logical reasons like this that might click with him?  There *are* actual reasons for adults to be in charge and children to listen to adults.  Maybe if you let him make a poor choice then that can be a learning opportunity?  Or let him try to do something "his way" and then you can point out how just from being older and having more experience in the world, you are able to help him.  If anything like that would make sense.  But I think it might make sense to come up with a list of reasons that would make sense to him or that you could point out.  It may be obvious to him -- dad is bigger.  That is obvious to a child sometimes.  Reasons to listen to you may not be as obvious and may need to be spelled out.  Not like you only do that -- also showing him through actions.  But I think some kids need really explicit explanations as well as the life experiences -- maybe they are not collating the life experiences really well or are not quite filling in the blanks from life experiences alone.  But there may be some things that really make sense to him.  Also, can he feed himself?  Clean his own clothes?  Go to the store?  These are all things where his *role as a child* mean that he needs to listen to you in your *role as an adult.*  But he may not think anything of that, it is not obvious to kids, they do not notice.  If he is crazy self-sufficient, maybe add in things where he must count on you, and those are chances for him to notice (if you point it out) how you bring good things into his life that he cannot do for himself.  I think there is a point where it is too much, but I also think, it may take being said a lot of times, it may not be something where you say it once and it sticks, b/c it may take a lot of time to really get the idea and to create the framework and then be able to add to the framework on his own.  

 

You could also talk about examples of things the older child is able to do, and is allowed to do, and talk about how the older child got from Point A to Point B and tie that in with things adults do.  Also examples with other kids he might know, of other ages, and what they are and aren't allowed to do, and why they have the life experience and maturity to begin being in charge of more and more.  And if you used a visual chart you could have it by age or stage and put people in with examples of how they should act to people older and younger (help younger people, respect older people) along with things they are and aren't allowed to do.  

 

But I have thought about this a little -- and I just question if it is more about "mom" and "dad" and not about the whole idea of "older and younger" and "why older people know more than younger people."  I know it is really common for little kids to think someone who is bigger is automatically older, too, and I don't know if it is possible to always get a 5-year-old to understand that a bigger person is not always older.  

 

He also might have some crazy idea that dad is in charge b/c he is the one who drives the car.  If he is into cars -- he might read a lot into that, when really it does not have much to do with anything.  There might be some detail that he has seized on and that could be why he has that thought process.  But just from not knowing the "real reasons."  

 

But there are probably other adults he needs to listen to, at church, other family members, etc.  So if you can fit yourself into that framework, it might be a way to go.  Not necessarily just add yourself into the family framework -- it might be *harder* b/c he might have fewer examples of this, it might be easier to fit into a framework with many examples.  Especially if he gets those frameworks!  If he does -- start there and work back to the family framework over time.  

That's a fascinating explanation Lecka and gives me a LOT of ideas!!! I'm going to have to go google that.  Lots of ways to approach him there and things that might be creating the glitch.  Thanks!!!   :)

 

If you ever remember a name for the program that I could google to see some pictures, that would be awesome.  :)

[Lecka]

The book part of the program looked like just a lot of blackline masters of different kinds of outlines.  I think in the back it had examples of ways to use the blackline masters and some examples.

 

The main thing was the woman who had the book -- she has a ton of experience with Aspergers and knew how to fill in the charts for different situations, and how to transition kids to using the charts and understanding them enough to add new situations to the chart appropriately.  

 

This woman's degree is in speech therapy, but she has been working with autism for probably 15 years (I read her bio -- she worked in special ed as a speech therapist and has always worked with some kids with autism, and has just focused on it more on more, until for the past 15 years she has been very focused on it), and I think she is very knowledgable. She has worked with all ages but her focus is really kids who are around upper elementary or middle school age, she likes the social skills stuff.  

 

Social knowledge of social roles is part of social skills -- depending on what people include in social skills.  Here -- I think the people who do social skills would do this kind of thing.  But some ABA people might do it, too.  B/c -- if it is autism, and people work with kids with autism, they want to help kids with things they need help with, and this is something some kids with autism need help with.  But I think here -- it is more the kind of things that people who focus more on the social skills training would do.  There is enough work for people to specialize into that.  But it depends what kids need -- if that is one thing they need, maybe do that.  If they need 5 things, maybe get all 5 things from another place.  

 

My son is still not ready for social skills training ----- we are still getting ready for him to get just a little farther in some things, and he can start a conversation program.  He is in intermediate language learning (what they call it locally) and he is so, so, so close to advanced, and he is in advanced in some areas.  But he needs to get more into advanced before he can start some more of the social skills stuff.  He is doing some things -- it is not like he doesn't do any -- but there are a lot more options when he gets into advanced.  Advanced in this case just means basic language skills.  

 

But I will tell you if I remember the book.  I looked it up on Amazon after the presentation, so I might be able to remember it.  

[Lecka]

http://www.amazon.com/Navigating-Social-World-Individuals-Functioning/dp/1885477821/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408729685&sr=1-12&keywords=aspergers++social

 

I think this is the book.  I am not positive.  

 

Hmmm.... at this meeting she showed the templates from the back of the book as examples?  Starting on page 312 in the Amazon sample?  But I do not know if what she was talking about really came from the book?  I don't know.  She just pulled it out to show an example of a visual chart, but it seemed really good when she talked about it.  

[PeterPan]

http://www.amazon.com/Navigating-Social-World-Individuals-Functioning/dp/1885477821/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408729685&sr=1-12&keywords=aspergers++social

 

I think this is the book.  I am not positive.  

 

Hmmm.... at this meeting she showed the templates from the back of the book as examples?  Starting on page 312 in the Amazon sample?  But I do not know if what she was talking about really came from the book?  I don't know.  She just pulled it out to show an example of a visual chart, but it seemed really good when she talked about it.  

Oh Lecka, you win the prize!!   :hurray:   :hurray:  :hurray: And there was an affordable used copy!!  :)

 

And you're right, I didn't even have the right WORD for what I was looking for.  Now that you've given me the right word, I can find more things for myself.  See, ya' taught me to fish.  :D

[texasmama]

(((hugs)))  OhE 

 

FWIW, you work harder at understanding your kids and getting them the help and supports they need than about anyone I know. No criticism here, just support and admiration!

[Storygirl]

Elizabeth, in addition to the book Lecka suggests, what about a children's picture book about the Ten Commandments. Because, you know... "Honor Thy Father and Mother." It might tie into his respect for God's authority. I don't have a specific version to suggest, but I'm sure you can find some choices on Amazon.

[kbutton]

Lecka,

 

This looks to be really helpful. I am trying to figure out where some of my son's social deficits are, and considering that 5th grade boys don't go everywhere with Mom, this might help me out. My son certainly doesn't expose any of his thinking to us and never has. We have had to dig, dig, dig in order to figure out which gears needed recalibrated in his thinking. We are at an impasse here in this area because he's still not giving up his thought processes, and he isn't impaired enough across the board to know where to start. This late diagnosis/"you remediated him so well" stuff is not fun. It leaves me feeling like the rug has been permanently pulled out from under me.

 

Thanks!

[PeterPan]

Elizabeth, in addition to the book Lecka suggests, what about a children's picture book about the Ten Commandments. Because, you know... "Honor Thy Father and Mother." It might tie into his respect for God's authority. I don't have a specific version to suggest, but I'm sure you can find some choices on Amazon.

Brilliant!!!

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[PeterPan]

Ah man... it uses photos and videos! This would definitely work well with the boys! I think I will get it later this year

 

Elizabeth, this could work well for you also. You use the child's own pictures and videos.

You're one step ahead of me.  What are you looking at that has videos??

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[Lecka]

Kbutton, what the woman who showed this book does, is that she runs a movie club for middle school age students.  My understanding is that they watch movies together and then she can tie her lessons into the movies.  The kids can vote on movies and feel like they like the club b/c it is movies they want to watch, and she gives them popcorn and soda.  But then she can also tie her lessons into the movies, and they have group discussions and fill out visual models (???) at the end of the sessions.  

 

There is also an acting club where they work the stuff into the acting club.  I have heard that kids also like it.

 

So, there are ways for them to teach some of it, but it does not have to count on the child having the introspection level at the beginning, to notice/analyze their internal states and communicate them (or whatever). Then for some of the kids they probably are tieing things in from the movie club and acting club more personally, with notes between teachers or whatever, to work on the skills in different ways and with different people, or whatever.  

 

So I don't know too much about it, but I think that they can use movies/little acting scripts/story books etc to talk about things, it does not have to just be with the individual child.  That might be something they are working up to for a lot of kids, and then some kids might already be at the point where they are applying things to their own thought processes.  

 

I think the movie club thing is for 3 years, and by the 3rd year of doing it you hope kids have picked up more than they knew when they started in year 1.  But I think it is something where it just takes a while, too, and that is okay.  But at the same time, I have heard good things about it, and people saying it has helped their kids.  It is also a social opportunity for kids to make friends with each other b/c they are in movie club together, which I think sounds really nice.  

 

I went to this information night, and it turned out that there was only on pre-school parent and one K parent, so it turned out that the woman mostly talked about the programs for older kids.  But she also explained some things about the elementary school placements that I had wanted to know. 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Lecka, I know someone who has done this over the years with their spectrum child, and I just thought the mother was witty.  You're right though, it worked out very well for her and helped develop more social awareness, observation, and discussion.  

[kbutton]

Kbutton, what the woman who showed this book does, is that she runs a movie club for middle school age students.  My understanding is that they watch movies together and then she can tie her lessons into the movies.  The kids can vote on movies and feel like they like the club b/c it is movies they want to watch, and she gives them popcorn and soda.  But then she can also tie her lessons into the movies, and they have group discussions and fill out visual models (???) at the end of the sessions.  

 

There is also an acting club where they work the stuff into the acting club.  I have heard that kids also like it.

 

So, there are ways for them to teach some of it, but it does not have to count on the child having the introspection level at the beginning, to notice/analyze their internal states and communicate them (or whatever). Then for some of the kids they probably are tieing things in from the movie club and acting club more personally, with notes between teachers or whatever, to work on the skills in different ways and with different people, or whatever.  

 

So I don't know too much about it, but I think that they can use movies/little acting scripts/story books etc to talk about things, it does not have to just be with the individual child.  That might be something they are working up to for a lot of kids, and then some kids might already be at the point where they are applying things to their own thought processes.  

 

I think the movie club thing is for 3 years, and by the 3rd year of doing it you hope kids have picked up more than they knew when they started in year 1.  But I think it is something where it just takes a while, too, and that is okay.  But at the same time, I have heard good things about it, and people saying it has helped their kids.  It is also a social opportunity for kids to make friends with each other b/c they are in movie club together, which I think sounds really nice.  

 

I went to this information night, and it turned out that there was only on pre-school parent and one K parent, so it turned out that the woman mostly talked about the programs for older kids.  But she also explained some things about the elementary school placements that I had wanted to know. 

 

That would be right up his alley. Or a book club where they do the same. Maybe if we can get his attention issues, impulsivity, etc. under control, we can do some of these even at home, though it's much harder for him to be the only one coming up with observations, etc. as the student. We've actually worked on making inferences about characters in a story or novel--what can we tell about them from what they say, what other characters say, etc., and he has loved it! (But it took FOREVER, so making this something outside of school would be nice.) A group for this would be wonderful. Is this through the speech therapist? I need to figure out how people find out about this stuff. This IEP process is kicking my rear, and I'm pretty sure it's not going to end well. 

 

[Lecka]

I think it might be through the school district here, I am not sure.  But the woman who does it is a speech therapist slash autism specialist.  She works in the school district and kind-of works with all the kids with autism in our district -- she went to observe in my son's pre-school last year, and she knows who he is and knows about him, even though she doesn't work with him.  The movie club is a social skills group, kind-of, but they don't want to call it that b/c of kids who will have a bad attitude if it is presented that way, and not want to go.  But the kids also know, it is kind-of like school.  It is held at one of the middle schools, and kids from the other middle school are driven over in a van, by the speech therapist, after school. But locally at least ----- the movie club would be considered a social skills group.  It is not the only thing a social skills group could be, but here it is in with the social skills groups category.  It is very broad -- anything that someone who works with older kids on their social skills, and wants to try, b/c they went to a presentation about it at a conference, or whatever, will be under social skills groups.  So -- therefore the movie club and the acting club both are "social skills groups" here even though they are not *really* social skills groups the way you would say "this is what a social skills group is."  But so it goes in my town.  It may turn out that they can get funding for calling things "social skills" or may be able to get kids aides by tying things to IEP goals for "social skills."  I know it is that way for "ABA" so I would not be surprised that there is something like that.  B/c there are some things here where the school district has to supply aides outside of school hours, and some things where they don't ----- so I am sure there are people trying to do things they think are good things and at the same time qualify for aides, or whatever.  

 

My son is going to be in the acting club thing this year, and it is run by masters students majoring in drama therapy at the local university.  It is going to be once a week after school, starting next month, for 2 months (I think).  This is coordinated through the school district somehow --  I got a note home in my son's backpack about it, and I mail the registration in to the speech therapist slash autism specialist who runs the middle school movie club.  

 

I hope the IEP process will improve.  Too bad to be penalized for all the ways he is doing well!  But at least he IS doing well.  I think that is such a Catch-22 sometimes -- so frustrating.  

 

My son's private ABA case manager likes the speech therapist, too, and she is the person who got my son Reading Mastery to use in his home program by checking it out from the school district.  I know (from church) that she is also "in" with the university speech clinic, everyone there likes her and will coordinate things with her for kids who are in school and also in speech therapy (and there are kids going to the speech clinic for pragmatic speech, who are also in the movie club, so it is good if they all work together on the same goals, and I think it is the case that they do).  Also there are some kids with autism who only qualify for speech therapy through their insurance -- b/c there is no mandate for autism treatment in this state.  So a lot of kids are just getting speech therapy, so it makes sense to do a lot through speech therapy if in practice that is the only service that many kids are going to have.  

 

A lot of things seem to be done the way they are, b/c of how things are paid for, and what is covered by insurance.  There is no mandate for insurance coverage here for autism, so it is not like "oh we can do whatever and insurance will pay for it."

[OneStepAtATime]

(((hugs)))  OhE 

 

FWIW, you work harder at understanding your kids and getting them the help and supports they need than about anyone I know. No criticism here, just support and admiration!

This from me, too.  Sorry if I caused any hurt at all.  Which is why I indicated my whole post might be total bunk.  You are such a help to so many and are so incredibly involved with your kids.  I'm sorry.   I'm glad that some other posts were helpful.  

[PeterPan]

This from me, too.  Sorry if I caused any hurt at all.  Which is why I indicated my whole post might be total bunk.  You are such a help to so many and are so incredibly involved with your kids.  I'm sorry.   I'm glad that some other posts were helpful.  

Don't worry.  I have a VERY short memory and I know to skip what doesn't work for me.  :)  I'm just turning out to be a little touchy on these things.  We'll get the evals and see what we learn.  Maybe then some things will make more sense.   :)

[Lecka]

I just re-skimmed Let Me Hear Your Voice by Catherine Maurice, and a lot of that book is about how she is helping her kids, but people who do not understand her circumstances are critical of her because they do not understand all the background and context.  

 

I like it anyway -- for other reasons -- but maybe it would be a nice read :)  I think she is a smart and devoted mother, and she kind-of goes into the reasons that she gets criticized.  A lot of the people criticizing her are very Freudian and it seems very much like something I would never hear from anyone, and it seems a little dated to me, but I think  just the situation of how she handles the feeling of "people think I am doing the wrong thing, I am going against some of the things that my friends and community think are correct" is done very well.  

 

She says at one point that she is being blamed by some people -- but then she says, she sees kids all around her all the time that she KNOWS are not being treated as well as she treats her kids, yet do not have the problems her kids have.  So it does not make sense -- b/c if it was all bad parenting, how come so many kids who are poorly parented do have a lot of skills that her kids don't have.  It just does not make sense, unless you say it is NOT caused by bad parenting.  But she is also in favor of good parenting and on the stricter side.  

 

It is the kind of thing I need to read on occasion.  

[PeterPan]

Yes Lecka, that's exactly it.  Thanks for the book recommend.  Our library has it.  :)

[Guest]

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[PeterPan]

Maurice's book has been on my to-read list since I read in my ABA book that she is the one responsible for ABA's comeback. I think I can relate to her thought process as you have described it! The book just jumped up a few notches on my list. Thanks for mentioning it Lecka!

Think nothing, I KNOW it.  It's why I'm not willing to talk discipline, because I'm not willing to be criticized for having done the best I can, things that, with a NT dc would have been MORE than enough.  And high standards, oh yeah.  This kid says "Yes ma'am," something I never required even of my dd.  

 

I think I've turned Tiger Mom or something, lol.

[Guest]

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[PeterPan]

Canucks, oh it's not you.  That was just a general statement.  I've gotten it before and I get it irl.  It's not just here and it's not you.  :)

[Guest]

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