LostintheCosmos Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Anyone interested in discussing the work of Ella Frances Lynch, neglected homeschooling author of the early 20th century? Here is a series of three articles in which she gives a brief overview of her methods. Two of her books are online: Bookless Lessons for the Mother-Teacher, aimed at the younger child, and Educating the Child at Home, which goes through roughly early elementary. Big takeaways for me thus far include the essential element of chores in education, an emphasis on truly great literature from the very beginning of formal schooling (note that she ties lit and history together in the early years, but uses literature as the spine rather than a chronological history rotation), and how to go about sensorial education without having to buy a pink tower. Lynch's methods are practical, in that they do not require much "stuff" and really take advantage of the home environment, rather than trying to reproduce school methods out of context, but also somewhat daunting in that I think I would have to do a fair amount of preparation and self-education to pull them off. But I'm finding that will probably be the case no matter what. I'm about to start fleshing out the plans for our next six-week term and think I might experiment with planning a few EFL-style lessons. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'd like to discuss this, but am probably not in the best shape right now, since I'm taking a mental health break after doing E. F. L. style "Prayers" and "Poetry" with 3 out of 5 children. :001_unsure: I'll just say this: All of my weak areas, and my children's, are becoming very obvious with her approach. There's nothing to hide behind, if you know what I mean. No spoon-feeding; no bright and shiny distractions; no putting floaties on the children so we can all go splashing around in the deep end. But it seems to me we're on the right track. The other night, I noticed that five of the ten top threads on the General board were from parents of pre-teens who were trying to solve attitude, self-confidence, and other "work habit" problems. If her system really gets the results she claims -- and from the response at the time, and my own experience so far, I don't see a reason to doubt it -- then it will be completely worth it to our family. This morning's experience reminded me of something from the British Catholic author, Caryll Houselander: --- What is a sacrifice? A girl of eleven, asked to teach a child of four to "make a sacrifice," taught him to make the Sign of the Cross. Asked why this should be a sacrifice, she answered with supreme wisdom, "Because for a little minute he gives all of himself to God." --- (There's more of the passage here.) It seems to me that true education always involves sacrifice, such that -- even if only for a short time -- both the teachers and students give all of themselves to learning. If we try to avoid this, we lose something precious. "For modern youngsters, there is no tedious climbing of the hill of knowledge, for an escalator takes them from kindergarten to high school graduation without their ever knowing the joy of honest, sustained effort (...)" (Bookless Lessons for the Teacher-Mother, p. 94) This was in 1922. Many of today's self-proclaimed "traditional" curricula are based on the ones used in public and parochial schools in the 1950s, which, if anything, were even more carefully planned to conduct children smoothly from point A to point B, with increased speed and efficiency, and the least possible inconvenience. I'd guess that they probably do a reasonable job of preparing children for the modern college experience, which is set up on similar lines. But that's never been our main goal for homeschooling, and it seems to be becoming a less important one every year. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hmm... I was going to say Educating the Child at Home, but that might be because we have a couple of older elementary children. Not that it has much specific advice for that age group, but it still has more than her other books. Bookless Lessons is all about the younger ones, below age 7 or so, and it seems to have a lot of practical suggestions and encouragement. With the ages of your children, it might be the best starting point. (I put it aside while I tried to figure out what to do with my older ones, but it seems that that project isn't going to be finished any time soon :tongue_smilie:, so it's probably time for me to go back and read it more thoroughly.) BTW, we ended up getting the Forgotten Books reprint of Educating the Child at Home for $8 at Amazon -- which I think is less than it would cost us to print it -- but I haven't seen Bookless Lessons in print below $20. In case that makes a difference in your decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Oh my. I love how simple and sweet and straightforward those three articles were! Just do it, mothers! Don't try to make it like school. You hardly need books. Spend all year on one poem. One of the things that always strikes me when I read old fashioned writings about education like this is that we often, in a modern context (less so homeschoolers with our mania for times past, but society in general certainly) see educational methods like these as stiff and lifeless. Yet there's always these great OT tips in there about using fat crayons to not tire the hands and letting kids carry about bits of things to act as counters! Those are the things that I think people don't see when all they see is a dry McGuffy reader or envision kids doing copywork at nineteenth century schoolhouses. And they're the things that were forgotten in schools and have slowly had to be relearned with new research so they can be believed again. There's a sense of educating the whole body and self in many old fashioned writings like these that were missing in all the education of only the mind paradigms that seemed to dominate in the mid-twentieth century. 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 I'd like to discuss this, but am probably not in the best shape right now, since I'm taking a mental health break after doing E. F. L. style "Prayers" and "Poetry" with 3 out of 5 children. :001_unsure: I'll just say this: All of my weak areas, and my children's, are becoming very obvious with her approach. There's nothing to hide behind, if you know what I mean. No spoon-feeding; no bright and shiny distractions; no putting floaties on the children so we can all go splashing around in the deep end. This is perhaps exactly what appeals to me and terrifies me about trying this out. I know I'm, ahem, "low energy," introverted, and undisciplined - basically not cut out to be a homeschooling mom of many. And I think I've spent a lot of my efforts thus far doing what actually amounts to searching for techniques to get around all that (don't get between the child and the living book! recreate a Montessori classroom in our house! lock the children outside in nature while I hide in my room!). But probably what I should really do is take what little I have and try to make sure it's entirely focused on what is truly essential, assuming I can figure out what that is. Lynch's system feels like a step in the right direction to me, although I'm still trying to articulate exactly why that is. Thanks for the Caryll Houselander link...man, she's good. Question, which one of Bookless Lessons or Educating the Child at Home is more helpful? I am having trouble reading on the screen, I need to print it out but I can only print one. Which one should it be? Hmm, hard to say - I'm glad I read them both, but I tend to be completist. :001_rolleyes: I think if you want to get a better sense of how Lynch's specifically academic program works, go with Educating the Child at Home. For an introduction to that, but definitely more child-rearing, character-training type things, which Lynch sees as utterly foundational to her academic system, go with Bookless Lessons. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 What I'd like to know is what happens after age 10. What happens after age 10 depends on the family's circumstances and the child's future plans. She considers this the right time to start secondary education (for the fortunate ones who can take that path, and don't have to go to work at age 12), and doesn't say anything against sending them to school for this stage. All this long windedness to ask a question of those of you who have read her works: Does EFL suggest for the older children a similar academic education to what they would have received in school or is it fundamentally a different type of education not just in method but content? Definitely the former. The assumption is that children who are planning on going to college will be following some sort of traditional preparatory curriculum, whether they're at school or continuing to study at home. It's hard to get from the articles but does she recommend only reading this one poem the whole year or only memorizing it and reading other things besides? "Hiawatha's Childhood" is recommended as the basis of the first year of formal education, at around age five. It's used for memorization, recitation, and answering any questions the child has about vocabulary, geography, botany, etc. (All of this is done orally, so the parent needs to stay a few steps ahead in learning the poem and reading about any unfamiliar topics.) She considers nursery rhymes and fairy tales to be an essential part of the child's life, but not something to be taught through lessons of this type. So these, and other stories, would just be told or read for enjoyment. For those who are confused by the choice of literature, it might help to learn something about the poem and its background. "The Song of Hiawatha" is an epic, a genre that crosses the boundaries of folklore and literature. The memorization of big chunks of epic poetry was a large part of primary education in ancient Greece (with Homer) and Rome (with Vergil). Longfellow wanted to bring this genre to America, and unite European forms with the American landscape, and with legends that had been told to him by Native Americans. So there's a deeper significance, beyond its just being a famous and very enjoyable poem that grows along with the children. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Some hasty thoughts before we run out the door for the morning... Re: after 10, in addition to what ElizaG mentioned, Ella Francis Lynch seems to suggest that the child staying at home at this point might more or less take over the own education, in the tradition of Franklin, Lincoln, et al. I kind of assume that the ideal of the self-educated man is a particularly American one, which may further explain the appeal for her (and maybe us, since we seem to be back in a time when acceptable formal schooling options are limited). Re: nursery rhymes. Lynch does have some formal-ish lessons for the very young child based on nursery rhymes in Bookless Lessons. She also recommends folk tales for the pre-age-of-reason child, with fairy tales saved more for later. In Educating the Child, she writes, "You will be told by popular writers and lecturers that the children love the poems written by the children's poets, such as Stevenson and Eugene Field. These two men and others have indeed written exquisite poems of childhood, but it is you and i that enjoy them, not the children..." I have found this to be true... I think ElizaG is spot on about Lynch trying to find an American epic for American children. I had actually been musing about this recently while reading Marrou's description of the place of Homer in A History of Education in Antiquity, more from the perspective of if there even is a suitable English-language epic for (in my case) the American Catholic family. The closest I could come up with was Tolkein, and I actually know of some Catholic families who treat him more or less like Homer. :laugh: One of the Jennifers, you really get to the heart of the matter, I think. What conditions could Lynch take for granted that we can't? Does our different context doom us to failure if we try her method? We can probably address some issues, but definitely not all of them, and it's not totally just a matter of our lack of virtue. For example, Lynch though the farm was the ideal place to raise children, but that is not going to be an option for the vast majority of us. Still, I'm wary of those who argue all changes are inevitable, or more accurately, historical changes force us to respond in a certain way. We are constrained, but nonetheless still free. Traditions have always had to adapt to changing circumstances, though the way forward has not always been clear. I don't know if that makes sense or addresses what you were getting at. Vintage educators often tempt me to despair, too, but we have also had experiences that give me hope. When my oldest was four, I thought I had doomed him to a life of mindless TV watching - it was a victory when the TV was on only an hour a day. Lo and behold, he got older, better able to entertain himself without making me feel like jumping out the nearest window, and we've largely weaned ourselves off TV without too much wailing and gnashing of teeth. So take heart! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 LostCove -- good point about Tolkien. Yes, some families do use his writings that way. I think he would have been very surprised by this! On the other hand, Longfellow expressly set out to provide legends for the American people. "Hiawatha" was pretty clearly part of the 19th century nationalistic/Romantic literary scene, which also included people like Scott and the Brothers Grimm. He seems to have taken the meter (which is a variation on trochaic tetrameter -- DA duh DA duh DA duh DA DA) from the Kalevela, which was based on ancient Finnish legends, but had been compiled and published just a few years earlier. Given that Ushinsky lived around the same time, my guess is that he would have been influenced by this movement as well. Wikipedia puts him with the progressive "scientific educators" of that era, and says he was inspired to go into this field when he came across the personal library of one of Pestalozzi's students. (Who wasn't inspired by Pestalozzi? The guy seems to have been a total flake in his personal and professional life, but he influenced everyone who came after him.) But I know next to nothing about Russian pedagogy. I did come across this 1909 British report on education in Russia by Thomas Darlington, which talks about their reforms in terms of those in Germany, England, and other countries. It looks as if it might be worth reading for those who are interested in this subject (though, as usual, there are lots of snoozy bits about the number and size of commercial schools, etc.). One of the Jennifers, you really get to the heart of the matter, I think. What conditions could Lynch take for granted that we can't? Does our different context doom us to failure if we try her method? We can probably address some issues, but definitely not all of them, and it's not totally just a matter of our lack of virtue. For example, Lynch though the farm was the ideal place to raise children, but that is not going to be an option for the vast majority of us. I think she wrote so much about the advantages of rural life because it was under attack at that time, especially with respect to education. The small one-room schools were being closed, and the children bused to big consolidated regional schools with all the latest bells and whistles (gymnasia, science labs, shop classes, etc.). She thought these schools might be beneficial for children in the cities -- who didn't have so many chances to exercise, explore nature, and make things in everyday life -- but that they were absurd, wasteful, and inappropriate for rural children. That's interesting about the nursery rhyme lessons for three year olds. In Educating the Child at Home, she doesn't talk about starting poetry lessons until around age five, at which time they'd be ready for the longer poems. I think she must have been responding to parental demand. Her last book (the one that isn't available online) consists of her correspondence with the mother of an "advanced" two year old. E.F.L. spends a fair amount of time trying to talk her down from starting sit-down lessons, and giving ideas for other things to do. Some things don't change, I guess! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I should stop reading vintage sources because they stress me out by reminding me of all of my weaknesses. Thanks for the advice and I'm going back to lurkdom. :grouphug: Don't go back to lurking! From what you wrote, I don't see any particular 'weaknesses of *you*', but I do see a difficult situation due to differences between you and your dh. :grouphug: I'm in the same situation with regards to television, if I leave the kids with dh, he will plop them in front of the TV and get to work on his laptop. Sigh. This is very much an American phenomenon: the idealization of the self-made man. Personally, I see it as one of the reasons for the more negative aspects of modern society but be it as it may it is certainly a major part of the national character. I am not opposed to a certain level of independence in learning, but I have some serious issues with the idea of a Jefferson Education or a strict following of the Robinson Curriculum. It stems partly from knowing too many self-educated adults (of whom I guess I could be considered one) who have some major gaps and hold opinions that are held in part because of the gaps and to a certain extent there is not enough self-awareness to know how much one may be missing. I don't know if anyone still remembers William Michael of the CLAA but I think many of his own misguided notions stem directly from the fact that he basically taught himself and had too great a confidence in his own abilities to interpret what he read. Yeah, I remember :glare: . So if one is an American Catholic then it would make more sense to me (and of course, I speak as an outsider so I could be completely off base!) that it would be far more appropriate to orient oneself towards Europe and specifically English since that is the culture from which America has traditionally derived its mores. In that case something like The Ballad of the White Horse may be more appropriate. Or one can take the notion of distinctly American even further and say that while Longfellow may be appropriate for New Englanders, someone like Poe may be more appropriate for Southerners (though I don't even know if Poe wrote any epics, I'm just shooting from the hip here). That's not to say I'm opposed to Hiawatha's Childhood, I'm just trying to fully grapple with her ideas and see if there is some way to individualize the actual content to fit with the tradition & culture which various homeschooling families emerge from. Then again, it may be just simpler to stick with Hiawatha. Really interesting! When I read EFL a couple of months ago, I tried to find a similar epic poem suited to my culture (Dutch), because it obviously makes no sense to have my kids memorize an American poem :D. I couldn't find any. And I don't really know what to make of that. It's similar with the whole 'read good books in order to read the Great Books' situation. There are almost no classical childrens' books in Dutch. So apparently it isn't as necessary as some modern education writers make it out to be. This is one of the cases where I really really really wish Ester Maria still posted here because she had such a deep understanding of literature and culture that her perspective would have been very interesting to consider. Yes, I miss her too. Even though I read both books by EFL a couple of months ago, I stil don't realy know what to think about it. Partially because she only writes about educting 6-10yo's and also because it's so American, which makes it problematic for me personally. There is no mention of foreign languages, which is so not my situation :lol:. I'm not a CM educator, but at least she had her 12yo reading Caesar and having conversations in French and starting German. I also had a bad reaction to EFL's writing about math :cool: . I might need to read it again to remember what I did agree with :D. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Well, here's the question, why does it have to be distinctly American? What I mean is that the culture here (or what was here for several hundred years) is actually traced back to England. (...) So if one is an American Catholic then it would make more sense to me (and of course, I speak as an outsider so I could be completely off base!) that it would be far more appropriate to orient oneself towards Europe and specifically English since that is the culture from which America has traditionally derived its mores. In Ella Frances Lynch's day, American Catholics still identified strongly with their historic ethnic communities. The two biggest ones were the German and Irish, but there were also the Italian, Polish, French-Canadian, Bohemian, and so on. Many of these people would have been more than a bit put out to hear that they should adopt "English" culture as their own. Especially if their ancestors had come to America in part to get away from English domination. :patriot: The impression I get from E.F.L. is that she favored finding common ground with her fellow Americans in public life, and keeping a sense of the heritage of the "old country" (in her case, Ireland) within the home. I'm sure she would have agreed with other families doing the same, and supplementing the curriculum with whatever poems or songs they considered to be of value. Of course, she wouldn't get into the specifics in a book written for a mainstream audience, just as she doesn't get into the specifics of religious education. (The whole question of American Catholic identity is a big subject, which hasn't really become any clearer in the past 100 years, and might never be completely sorted out. Poetry choices are the least of it. :tongue_smilie:) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 This is very much an American phenomenon: the idealization of the self-made man. Personally, I see it as one of the reasons for the more negative aspects of modern society but be it as it may it is certainly a major part of the national character. I am not opposed to a certain level of independence in learning, but I have some serious issues with the idea of a Jefferson Education or a strict following of the Robinson Curriculum. It stems partly from knowing too many self-educated adults (of whom I guess I could be considered one) who have some major gaps and hold opinions that are held in part because of the gaps and to a certain extent there is not enough self-awareness to know how much one may be missing. I don't know if anyone still remembers William Michael of the CLAA but I think many of his own misguided notions stem directly from the fact that he basically taught himself and had too great a confidence in his own abilities to interpret what he read. There is a difference between the ideal of the self-educated man and the self-made man, who is really about thrift, hard work, and honesty rather than any educational or intellectual attainments. In any case, Lincoln did not have a Jefferson education! And Lynch actually highlights the role of Lincoln's mother in his "self"-education. In the end, I think a lot of this gets back to the context question; self-educating in the early 21st century is just going to have a different result than self-educating in the early 19th century. One of the most striking things to me is that Franklin and Lincoln would have just had many, many fewer things to read (I just looked at the Robinson curriculum booklist and what? Bobbsey twins? And I thought the 1000 good books list was stretching it...). Which leads me to the one long poem a year thing. In addition to the national identity angle ("there is no reason why every American child is not better and happier for knowing by heart the folk-epic of his land"), Lynch presents a few more general reasons for starting your child off with great poetry, particularly of the epic variety: 1) It suits the child developmentally. "The child...is looking upon a world crowded with marvelous new things. Early poetry, therefore, or that dealing with primitive things, is especially attuned to the child mind." (ECH, p. 59) "The ancient sagas, with their figurative and heroic language, reflect the characteristics of the early peoples--their intensity of feeling, their facts and fancies, their strength and weaknesses--all mental characteristics of the little child." (ECH, p. 61) "As the reasoning faculties develop and the critical talents grow keener the children become cynical, and begin to feel ashamed of their old poetical ardor. Therefore let us give the child real poetry during the years when his imagination is receptive for the thought of the poet, for by delay the gift is lost." (ECH, p. 62) I ran this one by my husband and he wanted to know what about all the, um, adult themes in the great epics. I said I dunno, but presumably Greek six-year-olds were not sheltered from them. 2) This is the time to form children's literary tastes. This makes a lot of sense to me and reminds me of the Montessori principle, "the best for the smallest." "Better than at any subsequent period, you can thus form the child's literary taste. It is not necessary to make him acquainted with all or even many of the masterpieces... A single poem carefully studied, memorized, and loved will do more for the child than a dozen that are indifferently skimmed. The trouble is that real poetry is too often left until late in the course of instruction, while trash, supposed to fit the child's intellect, is substitute. This is absurd and harmful. If we nurture the minds of our children during the early years on the best literature, if we place them in the society of great men, they will not be satisfied with the dime novel or the 'bestseller' in later years." (ECH, p. 63) 3) Related, great poetry gives children a gift for their whole life, to return to with profit as long as they live. "One of the reasons for selecting this piece of poetry [Mark Antony's speech] is that it is one of the few things that will never grow stale with use. It will live through the ages. The child will love it as soon as he can understand it, and the man of seventy will love it still more." (ECH, p. 64) 4) Length, coherence, and complexity of a text challenges, strengthens, and furnishes the mind and memory. "Excessive reading weakens the memory. Quite different indeed was the practice of learning long and difficult poems, whole chapters form the Bible, speeches of the world's great orators, books of the Iliad and Odyssey--things that have literary content, fine pictures for the mind's gallery, and lessons for life. If equal in the first place to the strain of acquiring, the mind fed upon such things as these becomes strengthened." (ECH, p. 66) "Because of this continuity of thought and structure [she is speaking specifically of Hiawatha here] its educational value is comparably greater than and equal quantity of good but assorted literature." (ECH, p. 68) I find these arguments pretty compelling, with perhaps the exception of #1. (ETA: Maybe I'm just being too literal here. Re-reading her I don't get the feeling Lynch would object to prudent postponing of more mature passage for later years.) Thoughts? Have I missed anything important? I also don't see why, in theory, some other epic or lengthy piece wouldn't work, if there is an option that would better reflect the culture of an individual family. In spite of it all, I still remain in favor of America, or an America, at least, so I'd be inclined to give Hiawatha a shot, but would also be interested in discussing other possibilities. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Listening in! Posting to make it easy to find again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Partially because she only writes about educting 6-10yo's and also because it's so American, which makes it problematic for me personally. There is no mention of foreign languages, which is so not my situation :lol:. I'm not a CM educator, but at least she had her 12yo reading Caesar and having conversations in French and starting German. I've read in a couple of places that children who were taught with Ella Frances Lynch's system (either at home, or in "schools of individual instruction") were routinely learning Latin, French, and German orally between age 7 and 9, and often continued studying those languages after that, either on their own from textbooks, or with a tutor. Her method for oral language teaching doesn't require the adult to be a fluent speaker. It's beyond my ability to explain right now, though, and probably belongs in its own thread anyway. But she did include foreign languages. Maybe this isn't mentioned in her books because she was trying to attract mothers of young children who might been hesitant about starting to teach at home, and she didn't want to overwhelm them. Presumably the ones who continued into the elementary years would have signed up for her correspondence service. Not that that's of any use to us! Also, to ltlmrs, who asked about convent schools: E.F.L.'s mother was one of the earliest students at the Sacred Heart girls' academy in New York (around the 1850s, I think), and she had great respect for the education given by the sisters. I don't know if she would have recommended it as a long-term arrangement, though. It wasn't typical for 19th century American Catholic parents to send their daughters away for more than a year or two, even to the best schools, unless the mother was ill or otherwise unavailable. For girls, the school was generally seen as a supplement to the home. They would often be sent there in preparation for their First Communion, which tended to be much later in those days, and was taken very seriously by devout families. By contrast, boys would often go to a classical college from around age 10 or 11 until graduation, as described in Father Finn's Tom Playfair and other books. Either way, I don't think she had any delusions that parents would be able to recreate this sort of academic, religious, and social atmosphere in their living rooms. ;) But even if she did think that schools were better in certain circumstances (which is something I haven't seen her commenting on, either way), many children couldn't attend for financial, health, distance, or other reasons, so they'd have to do what they could at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I've read in a couple of places that children who were taught with Ella Frances Lynch's system (either at home, or in "schools of individual instruction") were routinely learning Latin, French, and German orally between age 7 and 9, and often continued studying those languages after that, either on their own from textbooks, or with a tutor. Her method for oral language teaching doesn't require the adult to be a fluent speaker. It's beyond my ability to explain right now, though, and probably belongs in its own thread anyway. But she did include foreign languages. That's extremely interesting! :thumbup: If you could point me to where you have read that, I would be very happy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73349 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I skimmed through her elementary book last night, and she did specifically recommend starting foreign languages by age 10 so that the accent would be good. See pg. 32. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 My problem is about a fundamental lack of discipline. So I can't keep the plastic commercial crap from coming into my house. DD's got a birthday coming up and I'm already dreading the plastic garbage that will come into our house but I can't be "that mom" who tells our friends and family not to buy those toys. And tomorrow I'll take a few hours for myself to run errands, leaving my DH with my DD. My DH will have work he needs to do (he works many hours) and I know that while he's working, he'll put her in front of the TV (probably a Disney movie on DVD) all afternoon. I could prevent that by being with her all afternoon but I can't pass up the opportunity to go to the grocery store or Target all by myself (heaven!). I should stop reading vintage sources because they stress me out by reminding me of all of my weaknesses. Thanks for the advice and I'm going back to lurkdom. ETA thanks for mentioning Ushinsky. We're Orthodox and I knew there had so some Russian Orthodox educational reformers in the 19th century. I've never been able to find anything in English. And this discussion is reminding me of this recent post on the Rod Dreher blog. http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/will-modern-orthodoxy-make-it-will-any-traditional-religion/ It's not on point so don't jump on me for that but in my mind these ideas about vintage education, childrearing, religion, etc are all related. There have been some thoughtful critiques of what Dreher called the Benedict Option (can't remember where, sorry). That it's artificial; not organic. Doomed to fail. Essentially that it's impossible to fight against the modern world. How do you put the genie back in the bottle? If you're not following me here - sorry and go easy on me. I'm struggling with how to put my thoughts into words. Please don't lurk! Your input is needed! :grouphug: Don't go back to lurking! <snip> :iagree: I haven't read EFL, but just wanted to encourage you the battle against modern twaddle (if we use CM's word for it?). I was SO careful in the beginning. I wouldn't even buy a pacifier with a Disney character on it. (It was hard to find any without that 15 years ago!). But my strictness did put a fair amount of pressure on my marriage. I did loosen up later to the benefit of everyone. I want to encourage you that you are not lacking discipline - if you were more disciplined about it, you might bring a whole new set of problems into the picture. Don't feel badly that dd and dh enjoy a bit of Disney together. Instead, just keep bringing in the good stuff.... play classical music during the day, read aloud stories that will capture her imagination, gradually add read alouds that stretch her beyond her own reading level (even when she's older), introduce folksongs, great works of art, poetry, etc. I'm not telling you anything you don't know. I just want to say that it's okay if you can't keep the other out entirely. :grouphug: (I'm interested in the article you linked and hope to come back to read when I have more time.) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I skimmed through her elementary book last night, and she did specifically recommend starting foreign languages by age 10 so that the accent would be good. See pg. 32. Before age 10, actually. pg 32: "Foreign languages, if studied at all, should be begun before the age of ten, when the memory is most active, the auditory and vocal organs most responsive to the formation and acquisition of new sounds." 'If studied at all'... :smilielol5: . Anyway, I do understand that in America it might be less necessary to study a foreign language, and that EFL was writing for a general public and didn't want to scary everyone away :D. But it does make it difficult to read her book now and get some plan of action from it for my personal situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Before age 10, actually. pg 32: "Foreign languages, if studied at all, should be begun before the age of ten, when the memory is most active, the auditory and vocal organs most responsive to the formation and acquisition of new sounds." 'If studied at all'... :smilielol5: . Anyway, I do understand that in America it might be less necessary to study a foreign language, and that EFL was writing for a general public and didn't want to scary everyone away :D. But it does make it difficult to read her book now and get some plan of action from it for my personal situation. She was definitely writing for families in general: those whose children who would be going out to work at age 12 (which was still very common back then), those who were raising future university professors, and everyone in between. In another place, she warns against teaching French, piano, etc., and neglecting the basics -- so I think that must have been a problem at the time, maybe among families who had limited resources but wanted their children to rise in social class. Girls, especially, were often judged more on their showy "accomplishments" than on the substance of their character and learning. The main article I've found on teaching Latin is here, in the July 10, 1942 issue of Commonweal: Latin from the Cradle. It costs $3 to view, though, unless you have access through a library. I'll try to summarize it. 1) "Before the age of 7 it is not well to instruct children in Latin unless they have been hearing it at home, especially in the form of prayers, which makes it a vernacular." 2) Start by teaching vocabulary -- "dozens or hundreds" of words, mostly nouns -- showing the meaning with real objects instead of pictures. She wrote a booklet called Orbis Vivus to help parents with this, and distributed it free of charge. There are no copies in libraries that I've seen, but CUA might have one in their archives, if anyone lives nearby. 3) Have them memorize all the basic prayers in Latin, as altar boys do. (Just straight memorization, I'd think -- not word-for-word explanation and translation at this point.) 4) Write the first few verses of Genesis 1 on the blackboard, and have the child read them aloud. 5) She gives a sample lesson that looks like something from a primer, with simple sentences about farm animals that are found in the Bible (goat, lamb, etc.). The sentences are given in both Latin and English. I don't know if this comes from the Orbis Vivus as well. 6) By age 9 or 10, they should be able to read passages from the Vulgate, with an English translation at hand. "Objections: 'Of course, the child will pretend to know the Latin when he has the English translation.' Ah, but a well-taught pupil does not 'pretend' to anything. Not nature, but modern schooling trains children to cheat, mainly by giving them lessons too hard or too soft." Okay, that's still not completely clear, but I hope it's clearer. :001_smile: I don't know how she'd teach modern languages, but I'd be surprised if the method were very different. There are a lot of similarities with the way she teaches English: lots of memorization and oral recitation; an emphasis on classic texts and real life from the beginning; and basically just doing a lot with a little. ETA: She used this method for over 20 years, and by the 1940s, was widely considered (by religious sisters and leaders of the "liturgical movement") to be the leading expert on teaching Latin to elementary aged children. Not that that's saying much, since few other people were trying to do this at the time. But evidently it did get some results. Toward the end of her life, she seems to have put most of her energy into the Latin work, instead of writing so much about education in general. I don't know if this is because of a shift in her interests, or because the authorities were starting to crack down on homeschooling. (There was a court case that made national news in the 1930s, involving a family that was using her system.) Still a lot of unanswered questions! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Thank you very much, Eliza, for taking the time to summarize that article!! That really got my wheels spinning (that's the correct expression, right? :)). I really love what you name her way of 'doing a lot with a little'. That's the part of her writing that is really speaking to me. I'm very tired right now, so I'm not sure this post is coherent. I'll think some more about it after I get back from a few days vacation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 ElizaG, thanks so much for the article summary! I'd just found a reference to Orbus Vivus and was going to ask you if you'd tracked down a copy yet... I really love what you name her way of 'doing a lot with a little'. That's the part of her writing that is really speaking to me. Yes, this! ETA: Just crystallizing this thought for myself: the "littleness" becomes a great strength, because that is what forces the mental exercise. It is entirely the mind (of teacher and student) that is "doing a lot." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 ElizaG, thanks so much for the article summary! I'd just found a reference to Orbus Vivus and was going to ask you if you'd tracked down a copy yet... The best I've been able to do is find one listed in this archive. I'm nowhere near the DC area, but maybe someone else can make a visit. (If so, they might also want to check out the two file folders of correspondence with her that are listed in these papers.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 The best I've been able to do is find one listed in this archive. I'm nowhere near the DC area, but maybe someone else can make a visit. (If so, they might also want to check out the two file folders of correspondence with her that are listed in these papers.) Thanks! We're nowhere near DC either, alas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 Thinking some more about Lynch's reasons for epic poetry for the five year old, I'm also struck by some reasons she doesn't use. She doesn't make much of an appeal to tradition, although as Eliza pointed out, it's a pretty traditional approach and a pretty convincing argument to me! My guess is this is probably a matter of context and audience as anything else (would it come off as too intimidating to link this aspect of her approach to the classical tradition, given the broad audience she is aiming at?), as she doesn't have a problem making appeals to tradition or the way things have been done in other matters. She also makes a pretty restrained connection between the study of literature and moral development; there's not much in the way of lofty rhetoric around pursing the good, the true, and the beautiful or the cultivation of the affections. Formal academic work seems to be firstly about mental, not moral, development, although Lynch has a very rich notion of what that encompasses, all the faculties of the mind, imagination, emotions, so on. And so there is a connection, as the mental life is embedded in the moral life, but if your kid isn't learning obedience, hard work, and good manners in the context of family life, it's not going to happen via choice of particular academic work (would that it were that easy). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 I've been reading Bookless Lessons for the Teacher-Mother this weekend. I just finished the chapter on religious education. I'm surprised that she does not use the standard Catholic nomenclature. For example, she writes "Lord's Prayer" instead of the "Our Father." She mentions "sunday school." I'm sure CCD did not exist in her day but did Catholic children to go to "sunday school" in her day? She doesn't mention the saints or the Virgin Mary. I can't see this book being published by Seton, KWIM? Not exactly, "Phonics (or math, art or spelling or whatever) for Little Catholics." Was she writing for Protestants? Although perhaps the over the top (sorry if this offends) Catholic content in educational books came after than EFL's time? And a little warning for anyone just beginning Bookless Lessons, this is a vintage author with vintage ideas about childrearing, i.e. spare the rod, spoil the child. It was hard to get through the Discipline chapter with the references to tying children to chairs (which the author does not recommend, BTW, but she writes about something that we would consider to be abuse in a very matter of fact way). ETA, I love the title, "Teacher-Mother." ETA again because I've just finished the book. I found much that was useful even though I won't go for the spanking. I plan to to use her advice about training the senses during our nature walks. I hadn't made a connection on my own between talking about nature and vocabulary building. For example, find a larger leaf or a longer branch. Find a heavier stone. I really liked the way she discussed nature. Not in a mystical way or that it's somehow pure or magical. (I don't know my philosophy enough to say what's wrong with that.) Nature is important because it's a concrete thing that a child can interact with using all of his/her senses. He can smell a flower. Hold a leaf. Feel bark on a tree. I'm changing up my poetry plans for the year. We were going to read Robert Lewis Stevenson and Milne along with Mother Goose. I think we'll focus more on Mother Goose. I also ordered a one cent copy of Hiawatha on Amazon although I'm not sure if we'll use it this year. And I think I'm going to come up with some formal chores for DD. I think my biggest takeaway is not worrying about reading to DD for hours every day. I didn't see how I could fit hours of readaloud time into our schedule if we go to the park and the nature preserve and the botanic garden plus do ballet and soccer every week. Now I'm thinking that going to a the park is just as important as listening to me read her a book (is that WTM forum heresy? :leaving: ) Please don't judge me thinking "oh, she leaves the house too much!" We live in in a condo in a big city. We are within walking distance from some nice parks but a gang war is raging and it's not safe to walk to the park anymore (I've heard gunfire from our condo twice in the last month). I'm not sure why our gentrified street is worth dying over but it is what it is. So we don't walk to the park anymore and don't play in our courtyard. I'm still ruminating on what she wrote about preferring animal books instead of fairy tales for kids under age 7. I have plenty of fairy tales on our shelves and my DD enjoys hearing them. She asked for Rumplestilskin (sp?) and Puss and Boots tonight. I don't know what EFL means by books about animals but doubt she meant Potter or Pooh because they are more fairy tale-esque. I suspect she was thinking of something in the Montessori style (real pictures, not anthropomorphic). What do you think she meant by that? Re: questions about Lynch's audience and religious content, I know she was trained at a normal school (teachers' college) and taught in public schools for the first part of her career. I think she was definitely aiming at a broad, mainstream audience and hoped to influence the public schools as well. Your practical takeaways are very similar to mine, especially the not stressing over the read alouds. Somehow this year, I wound up with plans that were way more Ambleside-ish than I really meant to, I think mainly because I just couldn't figure out what else to do, and I have not been happy with how all the reading was working out. So we're in our between-term break this week and I'm thinking of tweaking our schedule to include more "observation training" and less, but more carefully chosen read-alouds. I assumed that "animal tales" meant more along the lines of folk tales (three little pigs, the little red hen, brer rabbit), while fairy tales meant traditional stories with human protagonists and more magical elements (Cinderella, Hansel and Gretel, Sleepy Beauty), and honestly the line there can be a bit blurry. But my thinking on this comes from Auntie Leila, not Ella Francis Lynch, so maybe she meant something else entirely? I'm still going back through my notes and trying to organize them. I'd love to discuss some of the "hows," if my toddler, who today trashed the bead cabinet I should never have bought :glare:, gives me a chance at some point this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeritasMama Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Before age 10, actually. pg 32: "Foreign languages, if studied at all, should be begun before the age of ten, when the memory is most active, the auditory and vocal organs most responsive to the formation and acquisition of new sounds." 'If studied at all'... :smilielol5: . Anyway, I do understand that in America it might be less necessary to study a foreign language, and that EFL was writing for a general public and didn't want to scary everyone away :D. But it does make it difficult to read her book now and get some plan of action from it for my personal situation. Two of my grandparents were first generation Americans. They grew up speaking other languages besides English.Three of my husbands grandparents were first generation Americans and grew up speaking German, Dutch, and Norwegian respectively. My father was taught German when he was a boy by his grandfather, and they spoke it together at home. I think that in the time Lynch was writing, it was not always necessary to study a foreign language during academic time as many Catholics were immigrants or the children of immigrants. And European culture was most definately a part of the home lives of our grandparents and our parents. I attended Scotch-Irish festivals growing up, and one of the largest Scandinavian cultural festivals in North America was held every fall in my hometown. I still eat lefse every Christmas, my MIL sends me some every year. Oktoberfest is also a popular event in many a small town to this day. We grew up listening to irish music and listening to Irish fairy tales. My grandmother was born in the 1920's, and she is definately Irish-Catholic first, American second. But, my grandparents were and are also very patriotic. They were taught American culture of the time at school, and education for their children was the top priority for most of the immigrants. The first generation of immigrants in the early 20th century wanted to preserve the traditions of the old country, but they also wanted their children to be educated as Americans. And so I agree that this is where ELF is coming from with the selection of Hiawatha. The children of the Catholic immigrants needed to study English, and they also needed to learn what it meant, at that time, to be American. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 27, 2014 Author Share Posted August 27, 2014 Organizing my notes this evening, I re-read a passage that kind of blew my mind - I'm not sure why this didn't sink in before. EFL is discussing all the different things one might draw out during a poetry lesson: vocabulary, "content knowledge," grammar, rhythm, rhyme. So far, so good, and perhaps not too different from any program we might think of that integrates language arts around literature. But then she adds this: "...the thought will suggest itself to the teacher-mother that such instruction could be given with greater ease and dispatch in connection with reading lessons, the printed page being a ready mechanical aid to locating verse-endings, rhyming words, monosyllables, dissyllables, etc. All this is true, but mind-training is similar to muscle-training, and it is not mere instruction, or knowledge, but use that gives strength that endures and power that achieves. Devise lessons that can be taught while the pupil stands, with his eyes on your eyes, instead of glued to a book. Make the lessons never too hard, but hard enough so that the child may experience the joy of attainment." (Bookless Lessons, p. 258) Talk about less is more! Referring to the printed text as an obstacle to building mental muscle! It seems kind crazy...until you stop and realize that, of course, this must have been how it was done for centuries before, you know, the printing press. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeritasMama Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Organizing my notes this evening, I re-read a passage that kind of blew my mind - I'm not sure why this didn't sink in before. EFL is discussing all the different things one might draw out during a poetry lesson: vocabulary, "content knowledge," grammar, rhythm, rhyme. So far, so good, and perhaps not too different from any program we might think of that integrates language arts around literature. But then she adds this: "...the thought will suggest itself to the teacher-mother that such instruction could be given with greater ease and dispatch in connection with reading lessons, the printed page being a ready mechanical aid to locating verse-endings, rhyming words, monosyllables, dissyllables, etc. All this is true, but mind-training is similar to muscle-training, and it is not mere instruction, or knowledge, but use that gives strength that endures and power that achieves. Devise lessons that can be taught while the pupil stands, with his eyes on your eyes, instead of glued to a book. Make the lessons never too hard, but hard enough so that the child may experience the joy of attainment." (Bookless Lessons, p. 258) Talk about less is more! Referring to the printed text as an obstacle to building mental muscle! It seems kind crazy...until you stop and realize that, of course, this must have been how it was done for centuries before, you know, the printing press. Very interesting, it reminds me of formal recitation. I have been inspired to try and implement more formal recitation into our day by reading through MP materials, this has given me a new impetus. Your comment about the printing press reminded me of an anecdote in St. Augustine's Confessions about St. Ambrose reading silently to himself in his cell. This was odd, because in ancient times books were rare and so most of the time you would go and listen to book readings in large groups rather then actually read them yourself. But when studying texts individually, people would read aloud to aid their memories, for books had to be memorized and then passed along. But Ambrose chose to occasionally read silently by himself in his room to gain some peace and quiet without others listening in, and he was brilliant enough to learn the material without reading out loud. That's not really on topic, but it is an interesting tidbit your comment reminded me of. ETA: I was just thinking, you hear so much about "auditory" and "visual" and other types of learners, but you never hear about learning through speaking as a learning style. Group discussions maybe, but not recitation. It seems as though as a learning style it would be universal, who doesn't memorize something by repeating it aloud as a verse or a song? I'm also reminded of how pupils used to show their teachers that they had mastered content by "reciting their lessons," and how schools used to have recitation competitions where students would memorize and recite epic poems, Shakespeare, important speeches, etc. I suppose we could call this "oratory" learning :). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Talk about less is more! Referring to the printed text as an obstacle to building mental muscle! It seems kind crazy...until you stop and realize that, of course, this must have been how it was done for centuries before, you know, the printing press. Even long before the printing press, Socrates expressed concern about the effects of writing things down, which he said would weaken the memory. And looking at the things the ancients achieved with so many fewer resources than we have, maybe he had a point. The Oral World and the Written Word -- Nicholas Carr There are still people in other cultures who have strong oral traditions, including the memorization of long poems and stories. In the 1970s, there were even still some in Ireland. Michael Wood filmed one of them as part of his series, In Search of the Trojan War. Homer and the Oral Traditions This is a subject that's close to my heart, because I spent the better part of a couple of years reading the work of Marshall McLuhan and Fr. Walter Ong (both mentioned in the Nicholas Carr excerpt above), and trying to figure out how it relates to homeschooling, especially at the elementary level. At one point, Fr. Ong mentions offhand that the family is a "primary oral culture." Well, what effect are the media having on that? And I don't just mean the Internet, but books, pictures, preschool learning toys, and everything else that saturates our home environment these days. I haven't been able to look at homeschool methods and materials the same way again. Which is one reason I really appreciate what Ella Frances Lynch is suggesting. She's one of the relatively few writers on education in the 20th century who were strongly aware of the importance of speaking and hearing, and didn't see reading and writing as the magic keys to culture. (Steiner was another one, of course, but his ideas on education come with a lot of baggage. Probably more baggage than ideas! :tongue_smilie:) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread even though I am not familiar with the resources being discussed. Thank you for the discussion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 27, 2014 Author Share Posted August 27, 2014 And sorry about the bead cabinet. Thanks. :001_smile: I've been so exasperated at how my sweet baby has turned into a marauding toddler a little ahead of schedule, and I finally realized after the bead cabinet incident that it's because my almost-four-year-old has totally apprenticed him. So I'm doomed. Anyway... Even long before the printing press, Socrates expressed concern about the effects of writing things down, which he said would weaken the memory. And looking at the things the ancients achieved with so many fewer resources than we have, maybe he had a point. Ha, I read Phaedrus back in college, but at the time was a little more interested in what Socrates had to say about eros than written language. :001_rolleyes: Wow, this oral culture piece brings a lot together and has even increased my husband's enthusiasm for the crazy idea of scrapping our first grade plans to learn Hiawatha (he's already on board with replacing all our toys with pinecones, sticks, and potatoes). :laugh: Talking it over last night, he said it reminded him of a favorite point of the professor he studied Exodus with in grad school: man always wants to see things, but God asks him to hearken to His voice, to listen. This is a subject that's close to my heart, because I spent the better part of a couple of years reading the work of Marshall McLuhan and Fr. Walter Ong (both mentioned in the Nicholas Carr excerpt above), and trying to figure out how it relates to homeschooling, especially at the elementary level. At one point, Fr. Ong mentions offhand that the family is a "primary oral culture." Well, what effect are the media having on that? And I don't just mean the Internet, but books, pictures, preschool learning toys, and everything else that saturates our home environment these days. I haven't been able to look at homeschool methods and materials the same way again. This is incredibly interesting. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) I recently taught Vacation Bible School and used Catechism of the Good Shepherd type lessons. While telling the story of the Annunication, I completely blanked on what the Archangel Gabriel said to Mary while 8 little 3 and 4 year olds stared at me. It was quite embarrassing. When I prepared my lessons CGS style (I'm not trained, I totally improvised), I struggled with memorizing the stories without having the book as a crutch. Yes, both CGS and traditional (AMI) Montessori have a strong oral component, in the training and in the implementation. This is why they have such firm requirements about taking the courses in person, preparing your own album pages, and observing in a classroom. I dropped out of CGS part way through the training (having decided it wasn't something I was called to do at that time), but picked up a great deal from the instructor about how to talk and relate to the children, deal with unexpected problems, etc. I don't think it's something that could ever really be fully learned from a book, and it's even going to vary a fair bit depending on the instructor. But that's only part of the method. The other part is the nuts and bolts -- getting together all the materials, and learning the presentations by heart. And you can't skimp on this. (ETA: As an analogy, someone could have very good cooking skills, but be up the creek if they forgot the specific ingredients and proportions of Hollandaise sauce, or started making it before realizing they were almost out of butter.) Later, I took a week of training in another method of education that was developed a few generations ago, and it was a somewhat similar experience. The method didn't seem right for our family, so I didn't go ahead with studying all the materials and semi-scripted lessons that were part of it, but I did pick up some of the "feel" from spending so many hours watching the master teacher, and listening to her answering people's questions. I think this improved my teaching in general, but to actually teach that curriculum would require learning the specifics inside out as well. In the CM/classical thread that's going on right now, there's been some discussion of the way we have to put in a lot of effort behind the scenes, studying the content and making plans, so that everything will look streamlined. I think this is a key to excellent teaching. Then there's the intangible and much more unpredictable part when you're face to face with the child. I don't know any reliable way to improve skills in that area, other than by learning directly from a mentor, or by trial and error. (I'm still amazed when I try something and it works! :001_smile: ) What poety do you use for your ELF style lessons? I've been reviewing my Mother Goose books looking for unfamiliar rhymes to use with my almost 5 YO DD. Since we're just starting out, I'm keeping it simple and doing "Hiawatha's Childhood" with everyone aged 5 and up. That will be it for the kindergartener. For the others, I'm going to move on to some of the short poems she recommends at the end of Educating the Child at Home. (We might tie some of these to chronological history, which I'm planning on going through again, albeit lightly. It's not what she suggests, but it seems easier and more family-oriented than trying to teach a bunch of different content areas at once.) When it's time for the older ones to start another long poem, I'm thinking about doing "The Pied Piper of Hamelin" with my oldest two, and "The Courtship of Miles Standish" with the next one. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this works out with the latter child, who's very bright and verbal (and LOVES American history), but has a neurological disorder that's causing some delays, not only with writing, but also with some types of abstract thought. There seem to be no popular language arts curricula out there that are anywhere near what this child needs. I've been looking and looking, and kept coming back to just reading and doing some K level copywork, which didn't seem challenging enough. But if the literature is really meaty, I think it will be fine. For my youngest, who'll be preschool age, I'm just going to follow the advice from E.F.L.'s newspaper columns and do chalkboard work, simple chores, etc. I could see maybe doing the nursery rhyme lessons when my eldest was this age, but we have so much going on here now, I think she'll get plenty to think about just by listening in. If we do Mother Goose in a formal way, it will be as a group, taking a few of the more obscure rhymes and playing around by rewriting them or adding more verses. (This isn't an E.F.L. recommendation, but it's something we really enjoy here.) Iona and Peter Opie have put together some excellent books of nursery rhymes, which are easy to find used. The Puffin one is quite substantial, and the Oxford one is even longer and has lots of notes. We have both: Puffin for the children, and Oxford for me. :001_smile: [edited for privacy reasons] Edited May 19, 2016 by ElizaG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Wow, this oral culture piece brings a lot together and has even increased my husband's enthusiasm for the crazy idea of scrapping our first grade plans to learn Hiawatha (he's already on board with replacing all our toys with pinecones, sticks, and potatoes). :laugh: Ah yes, the potatoes, friends of children everywhere. I've been fantasizing about starting an E.F.L. blog, and having the logo be a potato creature. Any ideas for what to use in place of shoe buttons? :D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Posting so I don't lose this thread. me too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. A Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I've been following this with interest. Thanks for the great discussion. It's very interesting to think about our current dependence on the written word over oral. My son used to ask me to tell him stories all the time and I just couldn't do it. My mind would go blank and I'd come up with something ridiculous and boring. Finally one day I told him that I don't tell stories - I read them! So if he would like to choose a book for me to read I'll do that. :blushing: I have not yet had the chance to read any of EFL's writings yet (though I do plan to eventually), but I am going to think about how we can begin to build our oral skills 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I've been following this with interest. Thanks for the great discussion. It's very interesting to think about our current dependence on the written word over oral. My son used to ask me to tell him stories all the time and I just couldn't do it. My mind would go blank and I'd come up with something ridiculous and boring. Finally one day I told him that I don't tell stories - I read them! So if he would like to choose a book for me to read I'll do that. :blushing: I have not yet had the chance to read any of EFL's writings yet (though I do plan to eventually), but I am going to think about how we can begin to build our oral skills Charlotte Mason also talked about this for the youngest children. In volume 5 of her series, she wrote that they shouldn't have books for the five or six years, and should just be told a few classic stories over and over (not read aloud, but learned and retold by the adult). It's very rare to find a "CM inspired" homeschooler who tries to follow this part of her advice, even in a modified way, and my guess is that most aren't even aware of it. There are many differences in their methods and priorities, but this is one area of shared concern which has pretty much vanished today. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. A Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Charlotte Mason also talked about this for the youngest children. In volume 5 of her series, she wrote that they shouldn't have books for the five or six years, and should just be told a few classic stories over and over (not read aloud, but learned and retold by the adult). It's very rare to find a "CM inspired" homeschooler who follows this part of her advice, if they're even aware of it. There are many differences in their methods and priorities, but this is one area of shared concern which has pretty much vanished today. I remember that. And I ignored it because I didn't want to do it. :P But seeing it in the light of a deficiency (as in, I am too dependent upon the written word) is making me think twice about my initial rejection of the idea. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I remember that. And I ignored it because I didn't want to do it. :p But seeing it in the light of a deficiency (as in, I am too dependent upon the written word) is making me think twice about my initial rejection of the idea. BTDT -- not with this in particular (I never tried to do CM, so I saw myself as off the hook with that one ;) ), but with similarly challenging advice from Montessori. Somehow it seems easier for me to run around in search of books and so on, than to really commit to giving even a fairly small amount of myself -- time, attention, memory -- in the way that this sort of approach requires. Which gets back to the idea of sacrifice, I guess. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I was definitely winging it during VBS but I was desperate. I determined late that the lesson plans were not really age appropriate and I couldn't bring myself to lecture 3 and 4 year olds, quiz them and then direct them to "color this paper with these crayons" and "glue this thing onto that paper." Despite not being trained, my lessons went okay. The children seemed really interested in the stories. I think they responded better to hearing me tell the story (using little props like small rocks, playsilks and peg dolls) than to listening to me read a book. The children instantly calmed down and paid attention to me when I laid out a playsilk and began the story. The experience gave me a much greater appreciation for storytelling instead of story reading. Mrs. A, I have the same problem with memorizing stories. My DD is always asking me to tell her stories but I can't remember them. Today, on the way to the dentist, DD asked me to tell her the story of Katy (from the book about the big tractor). I did my best and DD said "you didn't tell it quite right, Mommy." I think in order to do the EFL lessons correctly, I'll need to memorize these poems myself which will be quite a challenge for me. I do not want to derail this thread, but these latter posts are related to another topic, prelection. A modified form of prelection has totally changed our homeschool for the better. If interested, here is a thread with more about it. The link is int the first post. I thought about just giving the link to the document, but so many people offered great ideas in the thread that I thought others might like to see the suggestions.http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/481435-rejuvenating-our-homeschool-teaching-batteriesfill-in-the-blank-helped-me-be-a-better-teacher/ 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeritasMama Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I remember that. And I ignored it because I didn't want to do it. :P But seeing it in the light of a deficiency (as in, I am too dependent upon the written word) is making me think twice about my initial rejection of the idea. I am not a very good story teller either. All I can muster when my children ask for a story are The Three Little Pigs, Little Red Riding Hood, and The Little Red Hen. I stick to short repetitive stories, I don't have the "gift of the gab." We listen to a lot of fairy tales as audio books, and as for nursery rhymes we have a copy of "The Real Mother Goose" my kids love to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeritasMama Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I remember that. And I ignored it because I didn't want to do it. :p But seeing it in the light of a deficiency (as in, I am too dependent upon the written word) is making me think twice about my initial rejection of the idea. I just had the idea to compile a list for my own reference of simple folk tales and fairy tales that are easy to improvise an then try to incorporate them into our Morning time, so I thought I'd share what I came up with off the top of my head: Jack and the Beanstalk The Gingerbread Man The Elves and the Shoemaker Chicken Little The Brave Little Tailor Cinderella 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I was definitely winging it during VBS but I was desperate. I determined late that the lesson plans were not really age appropriate and I couldn't bring myself to lecture 3 and 4 year olds, quiz them and then direct them to "color this paper with these crayons" and "glue this thing onto that paper." I understand that situation. Having had a similar experience teaching first grade catechism, I'd gladly have switched over to quasi-CGS even without the training, if only we weren't required to stick to the book. I think in order to do the EFL lessons correctly, I'll need to memorize these poems myself which will be quite a challenge for me. I do think it's necessary to memorize the poems for the little ones, because it's all done face-to-face, but you just have to stay a few steps ahead, so it's not so bad. My 5 year old is only learning a couple of lines a week. And I think "Hiawatha's Childhood" is worthwhile, even for us old folks. It's the sort of thing you can tell around a campfire, use to calm fractious little ones when stuck in a waiting room, etc. Not sure about the older children; this is another aspect of her method that I haven't figured out. I'm assuming that at some point, you just read the poem to them, but I don't know when that is. I sort of hope it's before "Miles Standish" (which is a fine piece of writing, but not one I'm particularly interested in memorizing, even in part). And I really hope it's before "Evangeline." Not because I think it isn't worth learning, but really... :svengo: Someone, please track down the secret E.F.L. archives, where she answers all these questions. :tongue_smilie: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I do not want to derail this thread, but these latter posts are related to another topic, prelection. A modified form of prelection has totally changed our homeschool for the better. If interested, here is a thread with more about it. The link is int the first post. I thought about just giving the link to the document, but so many people offered great ideas in the thread that I thought others might like to see the suggestions. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/481435-rejuvenating-our-homeschool-teaching-batteriesfill-in-the-blank-helped-me-be-a-better-teacher/ I realize that you know this already, but for those who haven't read the article you linked to in that thread, the term "prelection" was historically used to refer to a short introductory lesson that the teacher gave to the class. The purpose was to set the stage for reading them the literary passage (or, more broadly, for presenting new information). I think it's important to point this out, because from what I've seen, Ella Frances Lynch doesn't talk about prelection as it was understood in Jesuit education, and I'm pretty sure it's something she would generally have avoided with younger children. She does talk quite a bit about the teacher/mother studying behind the scenes, though. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I realize that you know this already, but for those who haven't read the article you linked to in that thread, the term "prelection" was historically used to refer to a short introductory lesson that the teacher gave to the class. The purpose was to set the stage for reading them the literary passage (or, more broadly, for presenting new information). I think it's important to point this out, because from what I've seen, Ella Frances Lynch doesn't talk about prelection as it was understood in Jesuit education, and I'm pretty sure it's something she would generally have avoided with younger children. She does talk quite a bit about the teacher/mother studying behind the scenes, though. :001_smile: Beyond being prepared as a teacher, I was thinking in terms of knowing the purpose behind what you are asking your children do. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Re: questions about Lynch's audience and religious content, I know she was trained at a normal school (teachers' college) and taught in public schools for the first part of her career. I think she was definitely aiming at a broad, mainstream audience and hoped to influence the public schools as well. It turns out that she did influence the public schools, although to what extent I'm not sure. She was friends with several superintendents, and her method of individual instruction was implemented in Oakland, CA, Atlantic City, NJ, and probably elsewhere. The students did well, and the teachers liked it a lot (in Oakland, they reported that they were able to complete half a term's work in a month), but unfortunately, the trustees decided to end those experiments. Apparently, it costs more to provide playground supervision for children who've finished their work early than it does to have them sitting in desks all day. :glare: She also had supporters among Lutherans, and I've come across a couple of mentions of her work in a Seventh-Day Adventist magazine. And of course, her articles were published in the Ladies' Home Journal, the PTA Journal, and other mainstream magazines. So she wasn't setting out to publish a "Catholic method." Besides, I think she knew it would be much less effective for her to suggest ways to reform the parochial schools, because they were terribly afraid of being seen as old-fashioned, and had got into the habit of copying the public schools. She comments on that in this column from 1935. I suspect that this is also why she doesn't make many appeals to tradition. In the time she was writing, it wouldn't have been a selling point, especially among Catholics, who were busily dismantling their traditional curriculum in favor of being up to date. Ironically, it was right around this time that Protestant and secular educators -- who'd already modernized a while back, and were starting to see the results -- were starting to try to revive the liberal arts in some form. In 1937, Robert M. Hutchins famously criticized Catholics for ignoring their intellectual heritage and imitating the worst features of secular schools. A few groups took his advice to heart, and decided to switch from modern methods to the time-tested traditions of... Robert M. Hutchins and Mortimer Adler. :huh: Don't ask me! Oh, and I think another thing that pushed out E.F.L.'s approach in the schools -- maybe the main thing -- was the invention of workbooks. The meaning of "individual instruction" shifted from one-on-one tutoring, to having the students work through printed materials at their own rate. There's an article in the 1934 bulletin of the National Catholic Educational Association about this new method, which they called "Supervised Study." (Coincidentally, it comes just a few pages after a summary of a meeting of college heads, in which they discussed the state of confusion they were in, and talked about whether or not to adopt the Hutchins plan.) It's very weird to see "reading a chapter in the textbook, then taking out the workbook and filling in the blanks" presented as some cutting-edge pedagogical development. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 Yeah, count me as another mediocre storyteller. My repertoire is limited to an uninspired - but consistent - Three Little Pigs, although the last time I tried, my three year old insisted on taking over and made it the Four Little Pigs - "two sisters and two brothers." :laugh: I did happen pick up this book at a used bookstore recently, although what I should obviously be doing is actually practicing telling some stories, not reading about it... Ah yes, the potatoes, friends of children everywhere. I've been fantasizing about starting an E.F.L. blog, and having the logo be a potato creature. Any ideas for what to use in place of shoe buttons? :D It just so happens that today my children did in fact raid the pantry for a few potatoes...which they used as projectiles. :huh: And you're in luck - on p. 139, EFL also suggests peppercorns as an alternative potato-creature eye-material. :laugh: Thanks also for the summary of your EFL-style plans! Am I understanding correctly that you will work on shorter poems with your older kids simultaneously with a longer work? I'm still trying to imagine how this all fleshes out into a day-by-day plan, how and when one fits in some of her non-poetry suggestions, and so on. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostintheCosmos Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 Oh, and I think another thing that pushed out E.F.L.'s approach in the schools -- maybe the main thing -- was the invention of workbooks. The meaning of "individual instruction" shifted from one-on-one tutoring, to having the students work through printed materials at their own rate. There's an article in the 1934 bulletin of the National Catholic Educational Association about this new method, which they called "Supervised Study." (Coincidentally, it comes just a few pages after after a summary of a meeting of college heads, in which they discussed the state of confusion they were in, and talked about whether or not to adopt the Hutchins plan.) It's very weird to see "reading a chapter in the textbook, then taking out the workbook and filling in the blanks" presented as some cutting-edge pedagogical development. Hey, sounds exactly like what we're hearing today about the alleged advantages of "blended learning," which I might now start referring to as Workbooks 2.0. But you know, teachers are expensive compared to a software license. Thanks for filling in some more of the history here - interesting and strange! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) On 8/27/2014 at 7:20 PM, LostCove said: Thanks also for the summary of your EFL-style plans! Am I understanding correctly that you will work on shorter poems with your older kids simultaneously with a longer work? I'm still trying to imagine how this all fleshes out into a day-by-day plan, how and when one fits in some of her non-poetry suggestions, and so on. I'm planning to just have each child working on one English poem at a time. They'll also be learning prayers in English, Latin, and French, depending on their ages. (They aren't competent enough in any foreign language to tackle poetry yet.) We haven't started the copywork -- they're finishing up last year's handwriting workbooks while I get things sorted out -- but for prayer notebooks for the older ones, I've taken half-ruled composition books, numbered the pages, and put in homemade tabs (cut from index cards) to make sections for the three languages. They can illustrate the prayers with drawings, pictures from religious gift catalogs, and so on. Poetry will probably have the same kind of book, but with just one section. She talks about giving the older child a looseleaf binder as a special book for poetry and art, and I might do that for the eldest. Younger children are supposed to have a single composition book for all their schoolwork, with tabs for the different subjects. There's a sample schedule in one of her newspaper columns; I'll try to find it. I think the children would follow pretty much the same basic plan from ages 5 to 9. (At 10, you enter the black hole.) [ETA: Here's one mother's schedule, though I'm pretty sure isn't the one I was looking for.] In a way, it might be good that there's so much left unanswered -- as those who try this are all going to have to fill in the blanks for themselves, so it's unlikely to turn into a cult sort of thing. Although the Hiawatha Potato Cult sounds kind of cool. Edited January 25, 2021 by ElizaG deleted personal info 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 The best I've been able to do is find one listed in this archive. I'm nowhere near the DC area, but maybe someone else can make a visit. (If so, they might also want to check out the two file folders of correspondence with her that are listed in these papers.) I have to admit that in this age of digital anything, I find it both highly frustrating and highly amusing that there are apparently somewhere 50 boxes with stuff we here would really love to see...but can't get to. Makes me wonder what other interesting stuff is in boxes in all sorts of archives everywhere :D. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Please don't judge me thinking "oh, she leaves the house too much!" We live in in a condo in a big city. We are within walking distance from some nice parks but a gang war is raging and it's not safe to walk to the park anymore (I've heard gunfire from our condo twice in the last month). I'm not sure why our gentrified street is worth dying over but it is what it is. So we don't walk to the park anymore and don't play in our courtyard. I'm not judging, I do want to give you a :grouphug: because it sounds aweful to not be able to go to the park or play outside because of a gang war ( :svengo:). Two of my grandparents were first generation Americans. They grew up speaking other languages besides English.Three of my husbands grandparents were first generation Americans and grew up speaking German, Dutch, and Norwegian respectively. My father was taught German when he was a boy by his grandfather, and they spoke it together at home. I think that in the time Lynch was writing, it was not always necessary to study a foreign language during academic time as many Catholics were immigrants or the children of immigrants. And European culture was most definately a part of the home lives of our grandparents and our parents. I attended Scotch-Irish festivals growing up, and one of the largest Scandinavian cultural festivals in North America was held every fall in my hometown. I still eat lefse every Christmas, my MIL sends me some every year. Oktoberfest is also a popular event in many a small town to this day. We grew up listening to irish music and listening to Irish fairy tales. My grandmother was born in the 1920's, and she is definately Irish-Catholic first, American second. But, my grandparents were and are also very patriotic. They were taught American culture of the time at school, and education for their children was the top priority for most of the immigrants. The first generation of immigrants in the early 20th century wanted to preserve the traditions of the old country, but they also wanted their children to be educated as Americans. And so I agree that this is where ELF is coming from with the selection of Hiawatha. The children of the Catholic immigrants needed to study English, and they also needed to learn what it meant, at that time, to be American. I had thought about it, that at that time lots of children would get exposure to foreign languages at home or in the larger family. And nowadays, at lots of places in the US (at least that's what I imagine) kids are still surrounded by other languages, e.g. Spanish. Right? For all the talking about Europeans speaking multiple foreign languages, I have only been able to speak English *once* in the last 10 years :glare: and that's the only foreingn language I speak. Still, that doesn't lessen the cultural pressure to teach several foreign languages...... :leaving: . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I'm planning to just have each child working on one English poem at a time. They'll also be learning prayers in English, Latin, and French, depending on their ages. (They aren't competent enough in any foreign language to tackle poetry yet.) We haven't started the copywork -- they're finishing up last year's handwriting workbooks while I get things sorted out -- but for prayer notebooks for the older ones, I've taken half-ruled composition books, numbered the pages, and put in homemade tabs (cut from index cards) to make sections for the three languages. They can illustrate the prayers with drawings, pictures from religious gift catalogs, and so on. Poetry will probably have the same kind of book, but with just one section. She talks about giving the older child a looseleaf binder as a special book for poetry and art, and I might do that for the eldest, but DS9 isn't tidy enough yet. Younger children are supposed to have a single composition book for all their schoolwork, with tabs for the different subjects. There's a sample schedule in one of her newspaper columns; I'll try to find it. I think the children would follow pretty much the same basic plan from ages 5 to 9. (At 10, you enter the black hole.) [ETA: Here's one mother's schedule, though I'm pretty sure isn't the one I was looking for.] In a way, it might be good that there's so much left unanswered -- as those who try this are all going to have to fill in the blanks for themselves, so it's unlikely to turn into a cult sort of thing. Although the Hiawatha Potato Cult sounds kind of cool. :laugh: Thanks for the link to the schedule. The other links aren't working, btw. :laugh: at the black hole at 10yo comment. I read EFL's books with my 10yo in mind, because I was desperatey looking for what to do with her, so that didn't go so well. I think I got dd10's stuff figured out (although obviously nothing EFL worthy), so now I'm going to reread with my younger dds in mind. Potatoes...I completely glossed over that. I wonder what marvels I will discovers next :D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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