Algebra for child who doesn't like math but is good at it

[hebandgene]

This is our second year of HSing, and I am still trying to figure out what curricula to use this school year.  My 8th grader doesn't care for math at all but is actually pretty good at it and was considered gifted in math by the W-J tester.  (I question that assessment but whatever.)  We used Saxon Algebra 1/2 this past year because Saxon is what they had been using at Christian school so it was familiar.  But it is so boring.  Sometimes he misses a lot of answers, I think, because he just is trying to push through to the end and doesn't really care.  He has no trouble mastering concepts.  His problem is lack of interest.  So what to choose for Algebra this year?  I have TT Algebra 1.0 (w/o the discs) and MUS Algebra but have been cautioned against both - not challenging enough (??).  Do you agree?  Can someone recommend a program that will be less tedious but also challenge him appropriately?

 

Thank you so much!  This forum has been a HUGE help to me this past year.

[SoCalLynn]

Well, we've used TT for going on 4 years now. I don't care for the reviews that say it isn't challenging enough. My daughter, also talented with math but doesn't really like it very much, loves TT. She usually chooses to do math first in the morning, without argument. She likes the way the dvd's explain the topic to her. We choose not to use automatic grading, but instead she works all the assignments in her notebook, we review them together and she corrects any mistakes. She ended up with an A in Algebra 2.

 

What good is a rigorous math program if the student hates it and rebels against using it or gets nothing out of it? Unless your child is going into a math field, I would suggest using a math program that your child is comfortable with and willing to use.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Jacobs if the problem is a lack of interest. AoPS for lack of interest and if your student enjoys difficult challenges and is under stimulated.

[Omma]

My 8th grade ds likes Saxon a whole lot more now that we are using Art Reed DVDs.  He really connects with this instructor!

[8filltheheart]

I would recommend Foersters.   It is a solid math program.   It is written in an engaging manner and the explanations are clear.   I have used the text for my strong math kids that eventually moved on to engineering and physics majors as well as my students that are more interested in languages/humanities.

[Pen]

I suggest looking at various of the samples available for AoPS, etc. recommended above and letting your son help choose what he would like to do out of a group of suitable choices.

[TheApprentice]

I would suggest taking a look at Derek Owen's courses. It is distant learning, but you can do it at your own pace. He offers math courses through Calculus, and there is an honors option if you wanted that extra challenge for your son.

[Mike in SA]

Agree with looking at non-spiral programs.  Gifted math learners tend to hate math because of the spiral / concrete nature courses.  Abstract more, and try the challenging courses.  It might rekindle some love.  :)

[Momling]

We're using Foerster for my daughter who is good at math but dislikes it. One thing I've learned is not to worry about what she thinks. She just doesn't care and won't really like anything anyway. I just go for the get-it-done approach and she tolerates it and we move on to more interesting subjects.

[Sunshine State Sue]

I have TT Algebra 1.0 (w/o the discs) and MUS Algebra but have been cautioned against both - not challenging enough (??).  Do you agree?

Absolutely!  FWIW, I have a degree in math.  We used MUS from K-Algebra.  I loved it in the elementary years, but I do not think it is appropriate for a strong math student in the high school years.

 

Can someone recommend a program that will be less tedious but also challenge him appropriately?

My personal favorite is Foerster's but it is challenging.  Lial's is another option - I think it's slightly less challenging that Foerster's.  Maybe Jacob's, but our experience with Jacob's Geometry was short-lived, so I am hesitant to recommend.  I think it fits a learning style similar to Life of Fred that didn't work for us.

 

Is it possible for you to find some copies at your local library or through inter-library loan?  I was able to obtain several that way and it really helped in making the decision.

[MiMi 4under3]

Definitely look into Aops!! (The Art of Problem Solving)

 

Also, maybe the "Jousting Armadillos" 3 book series. The first one is Pre-Algebra.

[hebandgene]

Thank you all so much for your fabulous ideas!  You've given me a great place to start and good options to consider.  Had not heard of spiral vs mastery before so did a bit of research on that and found it helpful.  Am awaiting a call from Art Reed to see if there's a solution for Saxon.  And have checked out all your curriculum suggestions.  No decision yet, but I am hopeful now instead of just plain frustrated.

[NittanyJen]

Take a look at Life of Fred.  This series seriously re-invigorated our son's interest in learning mathematics, and it is a surprisingly deep and complete program for it's non-standard approach and quirkiness.  DH is a math professor, and we both love the depth of the program-- rather than teaching plug and chug algorithms, Fred will challenge him to understand not only why the math works, but how to apply it in novel situations rather than only in examples that match those he saw in the book-- and the storyline in the book is really funny, too.

 

He has a deeper knowledge of his math (he has used it from Fractions and Pre-A up through algebra 2 so far) than most of the kids he knows who are using more traditional programs-- he spends time explaining math to kids who are stuck in their books-- and he can explain to me what he is  doing very well.  The key with Fred is that when the program starts to get hard, they really need to learn to read with a pencil in hand-- when Fred solves a problem in the text, the student should also solve the problem on paper alongside Fred, rather than reading and nodding.

 

For a kid who catches on quickly, does not need to be spoon-fed every step, and doesn't need endless repetition, Fred is an awesome choice.  And don't let the naysayers tell you it isn't complete, is only algorithmic, etc etc etc . . . I don't think space aliens are teaching my son, Fred is, and we have some pretty high standards for his math education.

 

 

[phathui5]

We liked the Art Reed DVDs and used them with Saxon Algebra 1.

[apmom]

I also would recommend that you take a look at Life of Fred. We have been using it with our 12yo ds since 4th/5th grade, beginning with the Fractions book and are now in the second pre-algebra book. He knows much more math than I expected him to, and he understands what he is doing--not just mindless problem solving. We gave a standardized test this year, and he did extremely well in the math portion, having used nothing but Fred for two or three years now. He doesn't complain about math anymore! He also is very good at math, but really disliked it in the past (we used Math Mammoth prior to Life of Fred). 

[CaffeineDiary]

I also would recommend that you take a look at Life of Fred. We have been using it with our 12yo ds since 4th/5th grade, beginning with the Fractions book and are now in the second pre-algebra book. He knows much more math than I expected him to, and he understands what he is doing--not just mindless problem solving. We gave a standardized test this year, and he did extremely well in the math portion, having used nothing but Fred for two or three years now. He doesn't complain about math anymore! He also is very good at math, but really disliked it in the past (we used Math Mammoth prior to Life of Fred). 

 

I ranted about this elsewhere, but I examined the Life of Fred calculus books and they were embarrassingly bad.  I don't know whether that extends down the range, but I'd be wary.

[Pronghorn]

I ranted about this elsewhere, but I examined the Life of Fred calculus books and they were embarrassingly bad.  I don't know whether that extends down the range, but I'd be wary.

Bad in what way?

[Sunshine State Sue]

I ranted about this elsewhere, but I examined the Life of Fred calculus books and they were embarrassingly bad.  I don't know whether that extends down the range, but I'd be wary.

 

We used LoF Algebra in 8th grade.  It did not fit ds' learning style, so we did not continue with the series.  I thought the book was quite challenging.  This was 5 years ago before the extra practice book which ds could have used.  I don't know anything about the Calculus book, but I would think that if it really was "bad", that it would not be one of the study resources for the Calculus CLEP.

 

I would be interested in hearing more specific reasons for your opinion.

 

[CaffeineDiary]

 

I would be interested in hearing more specific reasons for your opinion.

 

 

My original post was here, and doesn't go into a lot of detail.  But that I used the word "appalling" tells me it was pretty bad.  I don't have time to review the material again, but I remember thinking at the time that it was below the quality of even free instructional material you could find on the internet, which is a pretty darn low bar.

[Momto6inIN]

Video Text is expensive, but my son loved it and so did I, and he learned a lot.  I definitely plan on using it with my other kids.

[Crimson Wife]

We liked the Art Reed DVDs and used them with Saxon Algebra 1.

 

Are these the D.I.V.E. into Math ones? I've seen that series advertised in the Seton catalog but never paid much attention since we were using Singapore rather than Saxon. However, we're restarting algebra 1 this fall and I've got the Saxon Algebra 1 3rd ed.  as one of the options I'm leaning towards.

[historically accurate]

I use Life of Fred with my mathy, but I hate math student.  She's used Singapore 1A-3B, Teaching Textbooks 6 & 7, and Life of Fred from Fractions to Elementary Algebra.  I even went so far as to use Ko's Journey and my own home-grown program in order to help her find the love of math.  So far, the only one that she has not despised is Life of Fred.  She does it with no tears, whines or huffiness; that is a win in my book.  I feel that it is enough for her in that she is learning and able to apply it to other problems when necessary.   

[NittanyJen]

My original post was here, and doesn't go into a lot of detail.  But that I used the word "appalling" tells me it was pretty bad.  I don't have time to review the material again, but I remember thinking at the time that it was below the quality of even free instructional material you could find on the internet, which is a pretty darn low bar.

 

DH is a professor of applied math at a research university, with awards in teaching as well as research . . . and holds the opposite opinion (caveat that DS is only in Advanced Algebra, so our peeks through the calc book have not been super thorough just yet).  But everything from Fractions through AA has been outstanding so far (Economics required quite a bit of parental discussion, as the political leanings do not match ours terribly well, but that was okay-- discussion is good, and learning that it is okay to disagree with an author is not a bad thing for a student, and the book actually sparked a serious love of economics for our son, even if he didn't believe everything Stan said, which is very cool).

 

We'll revisit it as he gets up through the series-- but that will be a while; the Fred series does geometry after algebra 2, then trig and THEN calc, so we have some time yet, esp if I give him any time off to do some probability or anything else.  But the series has been rock solid up until this point so far-- particularly if your student "likes it because it leaves room for your brain to actually think."

 

Jen

[hebandgene]

Are these the D.I.V.E. into Math ones? I've seen that series advertised in the Seton catalog but never paid much attention since we were using Singapore rather than Saxon. However, we're restarting algebra 1 this fall and I've got the Saxon Algebra 1 3rd ed.  as one of the options I'm leaning towards.

The DIVE CDs are different from the Art Reed DVDs.  I haven't used the DIVE CDs, but I think it is a teacher's voice explaining while concepts/problems are presented on something like a mimio board.  In the other, Mr. Reed is teaching the concepts in person in front of a class/video.  You can preview his DVDs here http://usingsaxon.com/onlinevideo.php.  

[hebandgene]

Thank you all so much for your continued comments!  They are all so helpful.  I consider each one of them and do follow-up research to learn more.  Since I have a younger son coming up whose math learning style is very different, I appreciate all this good info because what works for one may not work for the other.

[raptor_dad]

Jacob's if the problem is a lack of interest. AoPS for lack of interest and if your student enjoys difficult challenges and is under stimulated.

 

I strongly agree!!!... but if your kid just wants to get it done, I would go with Foerester. It is challenging and has good word problems and will set him up for STEM majors... For a kid who is good at math I wouldn't consider anything easier than Foerester or Dolciani.