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I agree with the article but I feel like its a few years too late at least with the people I am exposed too. I don't see it as a societal norm to expect a baby to sleep through the night anymore or for them to sleep by themselves. But its probably just my area and the people I'm generally around.

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"Normal babies sleep during the day and are up at night, at least for the first several (6-8) weeks.  That is normal and expected and nothing we can do to change that.  That means that parents need to sleep when the baby is sleeping to avoid all the great things that go along with sleep deprivation.  Older infants get up at night, but less often, and it is normal for one year olds to not be sleeping through the night."

 

How does that work in practice?

 

My aunt and uncle are missionaries in the Solomon Islands and they say that one of the biggest differences between there and here is what percentage of parenting a mom has to take on by herself.  They say that in the Solomon Islands, the women of an extended family spend almost all day together cooking, gardening, doing chores, and caring for children as a group.  According to my aunt and uncle, a mom never has to ask anyone to watch one of her children as she tends to another, because all the women are communally caring for all the kids.

 

In the movie Babies, the African community seemed to work in a similar way: many women together supervising a large group of children.

 

Most moms in the USA, OTOH, are not living in close-knit, supportive families or communities.  I'm not talking about "church friends bring over dinners for the first two weeks" kind of support, I'm talking about being surrounded all day everyday by your mother and sisters and aunts and cousins and knowing that they will do what needs doing while you take care of your new baby just as the group did for them in their turn.

 

The USA makes it even harder by not offering paid maternity or paternity leave or any of the other parental supports that many other developed countries provide.

 

One other statement in the article stood out to me:

"The sleep training techniques that have been sold in the US have never been shown to be associated with anything good for infants..."

 

Have they seen the baby section of Barnes and Noble?  They are willing to say that none of those sleep training techniques which run the gamut from no cry to lots of cry from strict schedule to fully child led from co-sleeping to crib sleeping to sling sleeping to hammock sleeping...none of them has been shown to be associated with anything good?  Really?  That is a pretty sweeping generalization, especially since I think it is fairly uncontroversial that sleep itself is good for a baby's growth and development, and sleep is, at least, peripherally associated with sleep training.

 

I have no beef with co-sleeping; it wasn't the right choice for our family, but I don't think any parenting choice is one size fits all.  The article, however, is pretty heavy handed about co-sleeping being the "right" choice: Don't let society tell you your baby should be sleeping through the night, but if you are putting your baby in a crib to sleep through the night by himself then you are probably a formula feeder who doesn't care about the risk of SIDS and you're probably lying about how much your kid is sleeping anyway.

 

Wendy

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I have a 5 week old (today) baby who has slept all but two nights.  He wakes up to feed but goes back to sleep.  We don't cosleep (though pretty close as he's in arms reach).  We don't let him cry...ever.  We have times that are obviously day and obviously night.  We don't recreate night during the day.  

Obviously, he is a fairly easy baby, but our first newborn in 19 years so the only one I have to go based off of. 

 

And it wouldn't be reasonable AT ALL to leave the other kids to fend for themselves in order to turn my sleep schedule on head.  It really isn't very reasonable for most people with more than one child, I don't suppose.

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I agree with the article but I feel like its a few years too late at least with the people I am exposed too. I don't see it as a societal norm to expect a baby to sleep through the night anymore or for them to sleep by themselves. But its probably just my area and the people I'm generally around.

You're lucky! I have a 3 month old and when he was first born, I was ready to deck the next person who asked if he was sleeping through the night! I was answering people with "he's 4 WEEKS old, it is not developmentally appropriate for him to sleep through the night". Unless it was someone I didn't know well, then I would just say "he sleeps pretty well for his age" or "he's the best sleeper I've had yet!".

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You're lucky! I have a 3 month old and when he was first born, I was ready to deck the next person who asked if he was sleeping through the night! I was answering people with "he's 4 WEEKS old, it is not developmentally appropriate for him to sleep through the night". Unless it was someone I didn't know well, then I would just say "he sleeps pretty well for his age" or "he's the best sleeper I've had yet!".

That would drive me insane.

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But if you are putting your baby in a crib to sleep through the night by himself then you are probably a formula feeder who doesn't care about the risk of SIDS and you're probably lying about how much your kid is sleeping anyway.

 

Wendy

Wow, judgmental much? My last two (the first doesn't count because she was tube fed) slept through the night within the first 3 weeks. They were both formula fed and slept for 6-8 hours at a stretch at night. I didn't do anything special to train them to this. In fact it scared me enough to mention it to my pedi. LOL They were just easy babies and went to sleep when it was dark and quiet. I take that back. My mom always told me if they wake at night make it boring. Keep the lights low. Take care of their needs, but don't make it a party.

 

Please be careful how you speak of formula feeders. You don't know what went into their decision, whether it be medications they simply cannot change (my issue) or issues from sexual abuse. I take meds that make me sleep hard. I cannot have a baby in bed with me, so yeah they all go into a crib/bassinet in my room.

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But if you are putting your baby in a crib to sleep through the night by himself then you are probably a formula feeder who doesn't care about the risk of SIDS and you're probably lying about how much your kid is sleeping anyway.

 

Wendy

Wow, judgmental much? My last two (the first doesn't count because she was tube fed) slept through the night within the first 3 weeks. They were both formula fed and slept for 6-8 hours at a stretch at night. I didn't do anything special to train them to this. In fact it scared me enough to mention it to my pedi. LOL They were just easy babies and went to sleep when it was dark and quiet. I take that back. My mom always told me if they wake at night make it boring. Keep the lights low. Take care of their needs, but don't make it a party.

 

Please be careful how you speak of formula feeders. You don't know what went into their decision, whether it be medications they simply cannot change (my issue) or issues from sexual abuse. I take meds that make me sleep hard. I cannot have a baby in bed with me, so yeah they all go into a crib/bassinet in my room.

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Wow, judgmental much? My last two (the first doesn't count because she was tube fed) slept through the night within the first 3 weeks. They were both formula fed and slept for 6-8 hours at a stretch at night. I didn't do anything special to train them to this. In fact it scared me enough to mention it to my pedi. LOL They were just easy babies and went to sleep when it was dark and quiet. I take that back. My mom always told me if they wake at night make it boring. Keep the lights low. Take care of their needs, but don't make it a party.

 

Please be careful how you speak of formula feeders. You don't know what went into their decision, whether it be medications they simply cannot change (my issue) or issues from sexual abuse. I take meds that make me sleep hard. I cannot have a baby in bed with me, so yeah they all go into a crib/bassinet in my room.

 

Did you read the article?  

 

I have no problem with formula feeding...or crib sleeping...or co-sleeping.  I myself made deliberate choices to encourage my babies to sleep through the night early.

 

The article, however, does not espouse such a neutral view.  As I said, the author strongly feels that co-sleeping and breast feeding are the "right" choices.

 

Wendy

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Did you read the article?

 

I have no problem with formula feeding...or crib sleeping...or co-sleeping. I myself made deliberate choices to encourage my babies to sleep through the night early.

 

The article, however, does not espouse such a neutral view. As I said, the author strongly feels that co-sleeping and breast feeding are the "right" choices.

 

Wendy

I interpreted it as her saying they are the most natural choices, which I agree with. Humans make all kinds of choices that are not natural, including my choice to live in an air conditioned home with artificial lighting.

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I interpreted it as her saying they are the most natural choices, which I agree with. Humans make all kinds of choices that are not natural, including my choice to live in an air conditioned home with artificial lighting.

I agree that they are more natural choices, much like squatting to defecate and only eating locally grown foods, but since most people reading the article are not living in "natural" societies, sometimes there needs to a compromise between natural and practicable.

 

Obviously, the author had every right to write that article. I just think that an article that acknowledged, rather than downplayed, the challenges that many parents face when they cannot just sleep while the baby sleeps all day might have been more useful. Practical tips for prioritizing baby's needs while not forfeiting the needs of a mom who works outside the home, has many small children or has no back up childcare to ever give her a break might be more constructive and motivating.

 

Wendy

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Obviously, the author had every right to write that article. I just think that an article that acknowledged, rather than downplayed, the challenges that many parents face when they cannot just sleep while the baby sleeps all day might have been more useful. Practical tips for prioritizing baby's needs while not forfeiting the needs of a mom who works outside the home, has many small children or has no back up childcare to ever give her a break might be more constructive and motivating.

 

Wendy

There are many articles that deal with these subjects. That was not what this author felt compelled to address.

 

In modern society, societal patterns and expectations have indeed made natural maternal-infant interactions difficult for many. Working around the various contingencies of life demands that each of us make choices every day. I do not personally see an article which points out how far societal expectations can be from the natural rhythms of a mother/child pair as a condemnation of individual choices that make life workable for a particular family. I think the article was meant to cause the reader to step back and examine the assumptions upon which much of modern Western childrearing is based. We tend to think that if certain practices are "the standard" of the society around us those must be the best and most reasonable, maybe the only reasonable, practices.

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Huh, I think I know why most people have sleep problems with one year olds. When trying to get them to sleep, they clobber your chin in the dark, give you fat lips with forehead bumps, try to nurse off your belly fat, pick your nose, pull your hair, sing, bite, take sudden stage dives off the bed, and occasionally spit up in your face. Then they often wake up at least once before you actually get to sleep, ruining any chance you had of conking out before DH starts snoring.

 

And then they wake up several times a night.

 

Developmentally appropriate and normal? Yes. Anything to fix? Nope. Still, nothing but problems.

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I agree that they are more natural choices, much like squatting to defecate and only eating locally grown foods, but since most people reading the article are not living in "natural" societies, sometimes there needs to a compromise between natural and practicable.

 

Don't they still do both of these in France?

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Where do you live? I live in the US and I did get a portion of my pay during my maternity leave. It was 6 weeks. A fellow co-worker had almost the same delivery date as me but she had a planned C-section and wanted more time. I don't think it was included in the time frame so I think she took it out of her vacation. Or, she got 8 weeks and added another week or two from her own time off.

 

I think paternity leave does exist somewhere in the US, but is much less common.

 

 

"Current United States maternity leave policy is directed by the Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 (FMLA) which includes a provision mandating 12 weeks of unpaid leave annually for mothers of newborn or newly adopted children. This policy is distinct to other industrialized countries for its relative scarcity of benefits, in terms of the short length of protected maternity leave and not offering some form of wage compensation for the leave of absence."

 

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_leave_in_the_United_States

(emphasis mine)

 

Wendy

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Definitely social isolation has huge consequences for American mothers ... And fathers. The idea that we need to do it all is also exhausting. And obviously many people around the world don't have a Downton Abbey style mansion far from an neighbors where the screaming baby can be put in its own wing.

 

People are not growing up around babies, so they don't see normal development. I think expectations are too high....look at the children who are severely beaten because they have an accident during toilet training. Why would anyone think a child could learn to use the toilet without accidents?

 

I, too, was asked if my few-weeks old was sleeping through the night. I was even told by my child's pediatrician at 2 months that, as he was > 10 lbs, he did not need to nurse for the entire night, and that I should have him in another room and have him cry until he learned. As far as I know, studies show it is healthier for breastfed babies to sleep in the same room as their parents, so I told him I would do no such thing and changed doctors (another practice) because this advice was given less than a week after my child was hospitalized for a problem that began... in the middle of the night.

 

Most of all, I do not believe that the US is truly a culture that values families. The idea of "family values" is about sexual behavior, not supporting new parents, children, or the family structure.

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We have had many babies (Until Squishy, they were all 3-9months old w hen they got here).  They all sleep through the night about 17 pounds whether that is at 4 months or 14 months or whatever.  And even then, there are times they are sick, in a growth spurt, or at a new developmental level (especially pulling up!).  It is silly to expect that your one month old is going to sleep through the night regularly and do so forever more.  At the same time, it isn't very reasonable to go all the way the other way and expect to be up all night most nights and still function running a household.  IMO, the word is balance.  You accept what is, work towards what is ideal, and recognize that there will be ups and downs.  

 

BTW, with my bios?  DD slept through the night about 2 weeks old and rarely napped.  DS still doesn't sleep through the night.  We kicked him out of our room w hen he was 9.  I have vowed to never have a child over age 2 in my room again.  We'll see :)

 

ETA:  Squishy did sleep through the night last night.  I woke up in a panic :)

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"Our current culture doesn't help us set realistic expectations for normal." This can be applied to so many things. My baby now doesn't sleep through the night. I don't mind waking a couple of times to feed him. What I can't stand is when he wants to be awake & play for 1-2 hours before going back to sleep. I don't turn on the lights or talk to him. I nurse him and rock him and eventually he falls back to sleep. It makes for a very tired mommy. 

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This is not a reflection of my personal experience. And my maternity leave was in 2008. I think the experiences of mothers will vary based on their individual insurance policies. Wikipedia can say what they like, but individuals here in the US do not get an average of 12 weeks unpaid leave from what I have observed.

 

Of course some companies choose to offer paid leave as a benefit, but...

 

"If you're a woman working in the United States and your employer provides paid maternity leave, consider yourself lucky: Just 11 percent of Americans employed by private industry have access to some sort of paid family leave. For state and government employees, 16 percent can take paid family leave. The U.S. federal government provides no paid family leave to its employees, though they can use their sick days or vacation days that they've saved up."

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/06/good-job-america-a-map-of-maternity-leave-policies-around-the-world/373117/

 

Dated June 20. 2014, so the stats are current.

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Well -  I guess I'm the worlds worst mom.

 

Formula fed baby (adopted ... no other choice but I'm still probably a jerk for not trying hard enough.   :laugh: )

Slept on his tummy

In a crib

In another room from us

 

And he slept like a champ from 9 pm to 5 am from week 6 on.  

 

Of course you can't really trust what a formula feeding, crib sleeping mama says.  

 

DD has been known to consume a pop tart or two also.  

 

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Wow, judgmental much? My last two (the first doesn't count because she was tube fed) slept through the night within the first 3 weeks. They were both formula fed and slept for 6-8 hours at a stretch at night. I didn't do anything special to train them to this. In fact it scared me enough to mention it to my pedi. LOL They were just easy babies and went to sleep when it was dark and quiet. I take that back. My mom always told me if they wake at night make it boring. Keep the lights low. Take care of their needs, but don't make it a party.

 

Please be careful how you speak of formula feeders. You don't know what went into their decision, whether it be medications they simply cannot change (my issue) or issues from sexual abuse. I take meds that make me sleep hard. I cannot have a baby in bed with me, so yeah they all go into a crib/bassinet in my room.

 

You misinterpreted what the PP said. By misquoting her and deleting the first part of what you quoted, you completely altered the meaning of her words.

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Joining the 'terrible mum' train with three babies who slept 8 hour nights around 2 months, and 2, soon to be 3, who slept 12 hours from 3-4 months. No crying it out or any other sleep techniques except some common sense. 'Just lucky' 3 times? doubt it. But I am a formula feeder (not by choice) who cannot safely co-sleep so what would I know. I'll just keep my mouth shut and keep having my unbroken sleep and happy, well rested and alert baby each morning.

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My children woke up a lot but didn't cry, so I was only half awake when I took care of them. If I would have had to wander down the hall, I think I would not have kept the continuity of sleep. But also, by staying at home, it was okay if I slept in or took a nap with an infant. Not the same for women who have a scheduled job out of the house.

 

NPR had an interesting story on paternity leave

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/13/333730249/more-dads-want-paternity-leave-getting-it-is-a-different-matter

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Joining the 'terrible mum' train with three babies who slept 8 hour nights around 2 months, and 2, soon to be 3, who slept 12 hours from 3-4 months. No crying it out or any other sleep techniques except some common sense. 'Just lucky' 3 times? doubt it. But I am a formula feeder (not by choice) who cannot safely co-sleep so what would I know. I'll just keep my mouth shut and keep having my unbroken sleep and happy, well rested and alert baby each morning.

 

Hey, that's wonderful. And lucky you. :) Count your blessings!

 

So what is it that you think you're doing that other moms aren't? What is this common sense sleeping technique you're using? I have read every baby sleep book out there, and I'm not exaggerating. I haven't implemented things that I didn't feel right about, but I have seen all the ideas out there. My babies wake/have woken fairly frequently in the night in their first two years. Some have been much more frequent wakers than others.

 

My tiny twins are actually quite good sleepers, as far as my babies go, but one wakes at least twice a night at 6 months old. The other will occasionally only wake once. It's been fun to observe their differences in sleep because they receive essentially the same care. But they are fraternal and quite different in temperament. My parenting mantra is "What you do doesn't matter."  :lol:  

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Where do you live? I live in the US and I did get a portion of my pay during my maternity leave. It was 6 weeks. A fellow co-worker had almost the same delivery date as me but she had a planned C-section and wanted more time. I don't think it was included in the time frame so I think she took it out of her vacation. Or, she got 8 weeks and added another week or two from her own time off.

 

I think paternity leave does exist somewhere in the US, but is much less common.

 

 

Six weeks of maternity leave is just about the bare minimum one could possibly ask a woman to take, IMO. Basically, it is enough time to mostly physically recover from an uncomplicated vaginal delivery. A c section will take longer to truly recover from, as well as any other complications like blood loss. And it certainly isn't allowing her time to recover from the sleep deprivation of having a newborn. I recently read an article that suggested that 4 months after having a baby, women were still sleep-deprived enough that they were cognitively impaired.

 

My DH receives two weeks of paternity leave, which is more than a lot of fathers receive, but still not very much. He took some extra personal time when our twins were born earlier this year--again, he was fortunate to be able to do that.

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After my snarky post I feel like I have to jump in and say that DS is just a world class sleeper.  It was all him.  I am a bumbling fool of a mother and he slept through the night by his own account not because of something awesome I did.  

 

DH and I are both very blessed that we are both home all day so (obviously) daycare was never an option for us.  I didn't realize how short maternity leave was until we woke up on the day DS turned 8 weeks old and DH told me that today would be DS's first day of daycare and I'd be going to back work if we were both working at our previous jobs.  It makes me sick to think of it still.  He was still so little and he needed me.  

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Definitely social isolation has huge consequences for American mothers ... And fathers. The idea that we need to do it all is also exhausting. And obviously many people around the world don't have a Downton Abbey style mansion far from an neighbors where the screaming baby can be put in its own wing.

 

People are not growing up around babies, so they don't see normal development. I think expectations are too high....look at the children who are severely beaten because they have an accident during toilet training. Why would anyone think a child could learn to use the toilet without accidents?

 

I, too, was asked if my few-weeks old was sleeping through the night. I was even told by my child's pediatrician at 2 months that, as he was > 10 lbs, he did not need to nurse for the entire night, and that I should have him in another room and have him cry until he learned. As far as I know, studies show it is healthier for breastfed babies to sleep in the same room as their parents, so I told him I would do no such thing and changed doctors (another practice) because this advice was given less than a week after my child was hospitalized for a problem that began... in the middle of the night.

 

Most of all, I do not believe that the US is truly a culture that values families. The idea of "family values" is about sexual behavior, not supporting new parents, children, or the family structure.

Very wise, Strype.

 

 

My sil just had a baby and they love their pediatrician who is all about getting the baby on a schedule. At 2 months she's supposed to be able to sleep 5 hrs at least. I'm like, and so you feel comfortable with your pediatrician's advice??? Dd didn't sleep 5 hrs at once until she was 15 months maybe?

 

But really, this isn't about who gets the worlds best parent award. It's about making sure your kids needs are met. If your kid is sleeping, lucky you. If not, meet their needs. Period.

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My mom was pretty comfortable with how successful she was at parenting babies when her first two happily slept well in the crib. Then I came along...and woke up demanding to nurse every two hours for the first year. She finally adapted and decided co-sleeping wasn't a bad idea :) my babies are frequent wakers, some more than others. I figure I'm the one who gave them the gene so I can't complain.

 

Snuggling with my wee ones is one of the greatest joys of my life.

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