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Teaching planning and organization skills...


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This is going to sound like a non-answer, but the best thing we've done for that is work on executive function other ways, like working memory and metronome work.  When you stimulate the EF portion of the brain, other things that part of the brain controls seem to get a bump as well.  So working on digit spans and metronome work can literally result in a cleaner room, etc. 

 

The other thing that really helped my dd was giving her i-devices.  iPad, iMac, etc. Everything integrates and syncs, and everything has calendars and alarms, and they're always right there with you.  She uses her iPad to keep herself organized, with lists, alarms, you name it.

 

 

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Reading Smart but Scattered, ADD-Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life and putting every alarm under the sun on my phone and DD's, as well as a calendar on the fridge and training the kids and I to check that calendar daily.

 

BINGO--training to use and check the calendar, training to use alarms, etc.

 

How did you train? I'm all ears. Did you find that they'd master one skill only to lose it when they learned the next one? (This happens here.) What worked/didn't work for training. I can think of potential helps, but the people who need them don't adopt them without some serious work, and I"m still pretty sure it's all up to me at this point.

 

I realize some of this in Smart But Scattered, but I need to dialog about things and talk through them with a real, live person.

 

We have a major problem with the people who live here overestimating their abilities in spite of evidence to the contrary, and they all resent supports. Denial, denial, denial...any minor success with supports substantiates not the need for more supports, but how good they are if they put their mind to it (and of course, one thing gets better, and something else flies out the back door).

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Ok, again I'm going to acknowledge gender differences and age make a BIG difference, HUGE.  So that said, honestly, she never cared about those things till they mattered for HER projects or events.

 

So I suggest getting them connected with something THEY want to show up for, come in the room with the new technology (iPod, iPad, whatever), hand it to them as you prep for the event, and say this is what's going to help you keep track of things for it.  

 

I just don't think it's likely they're going to expend much brain energy keeping track of things WE care about.  They're only going to expend it for stuff THEY care about.  So you either find things they care about or make a way for them to care about it.  (bribes, rewards)  

 

I keep going back to technology.  If you give them technology with wifi capabilities, then they can give feedback realtime for what they're doing.  They can email you they completed assignments.  You can use OneNote and sync and see them checking tasks off real-time.  

 

I've used a paper checklist with my dd rabidly for years, because that's what it took.  I put it into a Staples Better Binder, so it wouldn't get LOST.  And I got my butt up and checked it at intervals.  It really is not like come to Jesus, get the drift, now it happens.  It's more like I used to check on you every 15 minutes, now I check on you every 30, and when that is going well and they're learning how to follow structure, space it out more and more.  Now, AS LONG AS the structure we start off with is super clear, dd is good the whole day.  But that was after YEARS of me structuring everything, me sitting with her pulling her brain back (this is how we sit and work on math for 20 minutes, snap snap reminder every time you drift out the window).  And that's age 15, not 10.  At 10, let's just say it was a LOONY BIN.  Let's just say there was NOTHING like the ability to work she has at 15.  Gender and age, sorry.

 

Clear structure, checkpoints, and knowing you'll GET what you INSPECT.  Everything independent came later.

 

Look at most of the methods people use with high need kids (adhd, spectrum, etc.) and you find lots of use of checkpoints and structure. Whether it's workbox drawers, iPods, paper in a binder, something on a board, it's clear tasks, clear sequence, and checkpoints.

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Kbutton, I put chores and anything life skill on her school checklist as well.  So literally, for years our checklist said: get dressed, make bed, eat breakfast, feed dog...  It also had on it to eat a snack, eat lunch, etc. We're just the sort of people who would forget to eat and then she'd be melting down.  So if you put his whole life into an app and just go through it, working the app.  Then at the checkpoints (say every 1/2 hour), you ask him "Where are you in your list?" and you have him pull out the list on the app and show you where he's at.  If he forgot to do something, he goes back to do it so he can check it off.  So you repeat that every half hour.  After he is consistent at 1/2 hour, stretch it a little more.  But that's what I STILL do with the paper lists.  I call it our conference, and she knows we conference midmorning and mid afternoon.  It's just how it is.  I call conference, and she's to come running and tell me what she's getting done, what isn't done on the list, etc.

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Wonderlist is a really good app.  One year I used To Do with her.  There are all sorts of "to do" apps if you search for them on iTunes.  She likes Cross It Off.  There's another one I got that a mom with a spectrum boy had made.  The app is a cross it off or to do type app, but it shows all 5 days at once, each with their own set of lists.  Some of the to do apps have features like the ability to email your list, the ability to reuse lists, etc., so it just depends on what is most important to you.

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He actually wants to use a paper planner if we can find a format we like (using downloadable forms). The problem with the checklist...it's okay for chores. It's not okay for school--several possible problems come up. 

  • The list becomes the whole day--it's like it takes on a life of its own, and no thought occurs if it's not in the list. The reason this is a problem is that his own brain works pretty well and he's relatively flexible. List = rigidity, and it's like trying to move a block of concrete, get him to think through things with his head, adapt, etc. once something is written down. If we judge the day wrong while making the list, it exponentially compounds whatever the problem is that day because now IT'S ON THE LIST.
  • We don't spend the same amount of time and effort on things daily. We tend to move on at natural breaks in thinking. If we have a list, everything becomes arbitrary--setting a timer for math means he watches the timer and doesn't really do math (or some variation of this). Using a set stopping point means he melts down because he has too much work, or it turns out to be a good day where he could've done 3x as much, and we squander the time (which is really important for days when he does NOTHING in math). How much he can handle is radically different each day.
  • He wants to help make his schedule, and this takes ALL DAY. The motivation is there, but like many tasks, it becomes Mt. Everest in just a few minutes, and he doesn't want to let go and just make some sensible thing happen. He wants to spend all day planning or whatever. (Look mom, I can make lists all day. Isn't this fun?)

 

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Kbutton, I'm sending you a link privately to a good educational therapist.  They're the right person to help you through this.  You're having very specific problems relative to his diagnosis, and you need a professional to dig in on that and problem solve.  I went to a talk by the people at this link, and they are AWESOME.  The other thing they do is get in the middle of the process so it's not just *you* dealing with him.  

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Kbutton, I'm sending you a link privately to a good educational therapist.  They're the right person to help you through this.  You're having very specific problems relative to his diagnosis, and you need a professional to dig in on that and problem solve.  I went to a talk by the people at this link, and they are AWESOME.  The other thing they do is get in the middle of the process so it's not just *you* dealing with him.  

 

Oh good, I thought it was just me. Seriously. I thought maybe I was making the problem up.

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He actually wants to use a paper planner if we can find a format we like (using downloadable forms). The problem with the checklist...it's okay for chores. It's not okay for school--several possible problems come up. 

  • The list becomes the whole day--it's like it takes on a life of its own, and no thought occurs if it's not in the list. The reason this is a problem is that his own brain works pretty well and he's relatively flexible. List = rigidity, and it's like trying to move a block of concrete, get him to think through things with his head, adapt, etc. once something is written down. If we judge the day wrong while making the list, it exponentially compounds whatever the problem is that day because now IT'S ON THE LIST.
  • We don't spend the same amount of time and effort on things daily. We tend to move on at natural breaks in thinking. If we have a list, everything becomes arbitrary--setting a timer for math means he watches the timer and doesn't really do math (or some variation of this). Using a set stopping point means he melts down because he has too much work, or it turns out to be a good day where he could've done 3x as much, and we squander the time (which is really important for days when he does NOTHING in math). How much he can handle is radically different each day.
  • He wants to help make his schedule, and this takes ALL DAY. The motivation is there, but like many tasks, it becomes Mt. Everest in just a few minutes, and he doesn't want to let go and just make some sensible thing happen. He wants to spend all day planning or whatever. (Look mom, I can make lists all day. Isn't this fun?)

 

Kbutton, I wanted to come back to this and toss out some suggestions that may or may not help (or may just get you thinking and help you find your own solutions?).  

 

-flexibility--I agree this is an issue.  Some people choose to work for time blocks rather than amount of material.  Some people will do a loop method.  I'm considering a loop approach for ds, but I haven't figured out yet the best way to implement it. You might need to brainstorm ways to be *flexible* with the list, ways to build in flexibility.  For instance, you might color code and have green be the things we try to get done every day from the list, yellow if we have time, and red is when all that is done.  Or use sections.  SOMEONE right now has a list, either mental or physical.  So he's been working with you, with you telling him what to do each day, and YOU have the list?  Maybe that's the place you need to stay for a while.  Find ways to model flexibility with the list, so he learns how *you* are flexible with the list.  Going directly to him making the entire list might be too big a jump.  Maybe you need two lists each day, a morning list and an afternoon list, and a process to expedite them.  For instance maybe the morning list is all your basics and it works on a simple loop.  The afternoon list is content and options, and you work it on an option, pick 3 from the list and that's what we'll do today, kind of method.  So the loop might be: spell, read, math, write.  Then you work through that loop.  If today he only gets through spelling and reading, tomorrow he starts with math.  Or within that put time limits, like we work for 1/2 hour and stop no matter what.  Then for the afternoon choices, have a list of 3 things and pick 2 or whatever.  With my dd at that age I had 1-2 afternoon activities and then a suggested list of options.  She had the tendency to forget at that age what her options were, so she'd wander around saying she was bored.  I actually put them all down on the checklist (play piano, do an art kit, snap circuits, work on landscaping, etc.). Maybe that was a visual memory thing?  Now, at 15 she busies herself much better, oy.

 

Anyways, model the flexibility for him before you expect him to do it for himself.

 

-timers.  Ok, a chunk of humanity is like that.  No problem.  So then you need to learn about loop scheduling.  That way nothing is getting neglected and everything eventually gets hit some.  Like I said, I'm pursuing it for ds.  I think it's a good way to balance out those uneven time expenditures.  

 

-planning gets OCD.  Ok, so back up and problem solve.  We do our weekly planning on Sunday night.  Can't take all day, because the day was filled with church, etc. already and is now ending.  For *me* the hardest thing about planning has been to become very, very concrete and not sort of ethereal.  I have SO many ideas, so much passion and enjoyment (maybe like your ds?), that it's really, REALLY hard to pin down.  I thought if I pinned things down we weren't going to have any more fun.  So there's a lot of psychology to deal with in planning.  You might see what happens if you get a theoretical conversation going about times and notice how much time, on average, each thing takes.  That would allow you to make a basic tally and see if your ideas for the week are even physically reasonable.  If they are, then things are going to average out, even if you loop, and the work can get done.  For me, my ideas were not realistic and I had to cut and chop.  What you might do is try a physical system where he has less choices to start with.  So put the subjects on index cards, where you've tallied the *average* times ahead of time so that you know the short and long days average out to do-able totals overall that physically can get done, on a typical (not optimal) day, and then let *his* choice be the ORDER.  So don't give him ALL the choices at once.  And then give him choice on just one thing instead of everything (snap circuits or curriculum this week for science). 

 

So instead of writing lists from scratch, give him a starting structure that limits choice and let him work within that for a physically capped time frame (8pm to bedtime).  If you like something physical like index cards, you could put them in a pocket chart.  You can get pocket charts right now at Walmart I think.  LOVE pocket charts.  You could then color code the things you loop and the things you choose from.  Put the choice cards into a pocket on the side and let him pull the 3 he chooses for the day.  For the 4 looped subjects, the schedule is physically happening.

 

Whatever, I'm not saying those will work.  It's more just getting some fresh perspective and problem-solving.  The ed therapist is going to be super fab at that.  Keep working on it.  He can't go directly to mature flexibility.  You have to MODEL the thought process.  Figure out where he's not flexible and see if you've been doing it and if you could MODEL the thought process for him.  "I use a list, but here's how I use it."  Rinse, repeat.

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Kbutton, I wanted to come back to this and toss out some suggestions that may or may not help (or may just get you thinking and help you find your own solutions?).  

 

-flexibility--I agree this is an issue.  Some people choose to work for time blocks rather than amount of material.  Some people will do a loop method.  I'm considering a loop approach for ds, but I haven't figured out yet the best way to implement it. You might need to brainstorm ways to be *flexible* with the list, ways to build in flexibility.  For instance, you might color code and have green be the things we try to get done every day from the list, yellow if we have time, and red is when all that is done.  Or use sections.  SOMEONE right now has a list, either mental or physical.  So he's been working with you, with you telling him what to do each day, and YOU have the list?  Maybe that's the place you need to stay for a while.  Find ways to model flexibility with the list, so he learns how *you* are flexible with the list.  Going directly to him making the entire list might be too big a jump.  Maybe you need two lists each day, a morning list and an afternoon list, and a process to expedite them.  For instance maybe the morning list is all your basics and it works on a simple loop.  The afternoon list is content and options, and you work it on an option, pick 3 from the list and that's what we'll do today, kind of method.  So the loop might be: spell, read, math, write.  Then you work through that loop.  If today he only gets through spelling and reading, tomorrow he starts with math.  Or within that put time limits, like we work for 1/2 hour and stop no matter what.  Then for the afternoon choices, have a list of 3 things and pick 2 or whatever.  With my dd at that age I had 1-2 afternoon activities and then a suggested list of options.  She had the tendency to forget at that age what her options were, so she'd wander around saying she was bored.  I actually put them all down on the checklist (play piano, do an art kit, snap circuits, work on landscaping, etc.). Maybe that was a visual memory thing?  Now, at 15 she busies herself much better, oy.

 

Anyways, model the flexibility for him before you expect him to do it for himself.

 

-timers.  Ok, a chunk of humanity is like that.  No problem.  So then you need to learn about loop scheduling.  That way nothing is getting neglected and everything eventually gets hit some.  Like I said, I'm pursuing it for ds.  I think it's a good way to balance out those uneven time expenditures.  

 

-planning gets OCD.  Ok, so back up and problem solve.  We do our weekly planning on Sunday night.  Can't take all day, because the day was filled with church, etc. already and is now ending.  For *me* the hardest thing about planning has been to become very, very concrete and not sort of ethereal.  I have SO many ideas, so much passion and enjoyment (maybe like your ds?), that it's really, REALLY hard to pin down.  I thought if I pinned things down we weren't going to have any more fun.  So there's a lot of psychology to deal with in planning.  You might see what happens if you get a theoretical conversation going about times and notice how much time, on average, each thing takes.  That would allow you to make a basic tally and see if your ideas for the week are even physically reasonable.  If they are, then things are going to average out, even if you loop, and the work can get done.  For me, my ideas were not realistic and I had to cut and chop.  What you might do is try a physical system where he has less choices to start with.  So put the subjects on index cards, where you've tallied the *average* times ahead of time so that you know the short and long days average out to do-able totals overall that physically can get done, on a typical (not optimal) day, and then let *his* choice be the ORDER.  So don't give him ALL the choices at once.  And then give him choice on just one thing instead of everything (snap circuits or curriculum this week for science). 

 

So instead of writing lists from scratch, give him a starting structure that limits choice and let him work within that for a physically capped time frame (8pm to bedtime).  If you like something physical like index cards, you could put them in a pocket chart.  You can get pocket charts right now at Walmart I think.  LOVE pocket charts.  You could then color code the things you loop and the things you choose from.  Put the choice cards into a pocket on the side and let him pull the 3 he chooses for the day.  For the 4 looped subjects, the schedule is physically happening.

 

Whatever, I'm not saying those will work.  It's more just getting some fresh perspective and problem-solving.  The ed therapist is going to be super fab at that.  Keep working on it.  He can't go directly to mature flexibility.  You have to MODEL the thought process.  Figure out where he's not flexible and see if you've been doing it and if you could MODEL the thought process for him.  "I use a list, but here's how I use it."  Rinse, repeat.

 

Mulling over...there are some concrete ideas in this that might help a lot--sometimes the missing piece is tiny and small but crucial. I have tweaked and tweaked, but I just need someone to talk things through with. Our psych is willing, but it's just not at the level I need, and it's behavior, not school. An ed psych might do the trick.

 

I also hope that the trial of meds takes some variability away. If he can concentrate better and just DO STUFF and do it WELL with reasonable monitoring, our options increase exponentially. Things won't be so high stakes.

 

Expediting the process...I do try to limit the possibilities and reign the choices into something workable, but I haven't found the right combination of ways to do that (and sometimes, he just really enjoys something, but it takes way more time than we can possibly devote to it for the return on investment). So, your input makes me think I'm headed in the right direction, but I need course corrections and ideas for how to use/do them. Will ponder the suggestions.

 

I have tried my best to have Plan A options (this is what we do on a good day) and Plan B options (this is what we do on hard days) and help him develop the ability to assess which options are appropriate--when we can do that successfully, it works better for both of us. Our batting average is moving up, so that's good. 

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okay ... Here's something I think might help. DS had taken some horseback riding lessons last year. I thought he'd lost interest, but he says he would like to take more, but there isn't ever time. I think if I could figure out how to use planning to show him how to achieve making time for riding lessons, including calling to set up the lesson, time to get  ready and get there, to put things away and so on afterwards, that would be a help.

 

The instructor is very flexible and can be called any day but Sunday and will make a lesson visit sometimes the same day, sometimes one or two days away, so it lends itself well to getting a certain group of things done, and then getting to go off to a lesson when she next has space, though it could also be scheduled a week in advance.

 

A new academic year planner  is supposed to come tomorrow or the next day, and while they have been failures in past, I am thinking that if we start in, not with things like math to be scheduled and planned, but rather riding lessons that could be a good start, and might show that the planner is helpful in that it helps make something desirable happen.

 

Any suggestions on exactly how to try to make this work would be appreciated...even details like putting horseback riding lesson on a such and such color post it note, or writing it in such and such color pen or pencil (which is better? pencil to be flexible or pen to make it seem important and real?) would be appreciated. I think specific such details may turn out to be important.

 

ETA: He also wants to make a trip to the coast, which is another place where I think work on planning toward something he wants would be a good idea.

 

Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

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One other thought I just had is that ds got chickens this past spring, a project he wanted to take on, and which, other than some help with transport and financing the chicken housing, feed, etc., he has actually been incredibly diligent about taking care of them every day, and has also been improving on telling me things like that we are low on chicken food, rather than that we are totally out. It seems like trying to build on this might be helpful, if I could figure out how.

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We have done quite a bit on planning and organization skills that have proved successful. When I look at the checklist from smart but scattered he seems to be pretty on track for his age (just shy of 10). I will say now that I am trying to move to the next level of planning and time management with him I have noticed that what is going to cause him the biggest roadblock is his self awareness. Which of course makes sense, since that is the crucial building block for so much of executive functioning skills. I am going to have to backtrack a bit and make that our main focus for the fall. So many of the programs I have been looking at would require him to have a much better knowledge of himself then he currently has.

 

I am not sure if some of the things I have done with ds would be helpful to others as ds has been in various therapies since he was 2 and is very use to lots of scaffolding. I know many kids who are older and don't have that background, probably wouldn't maybe be as on board. I will come back this evening and try to list them out anyway. For now, I better get to work on organizing my pantry while dh and ds are out shopping!

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Like I said earlier, I don't know if anything we did here would be helpful to anyone else, but here are the top things that have seemed to help.

 

One of the best things that has helped for ds in planning is having a weekly planning meeting where I guide him through what events we have for the week and he writes it down in his planner. In the beginning I had to I ask him lots of questions about the things he might need for each outing and have him note that as well. Then every night he has to check his planner for the following day and get things ready and write out any reminders on his reminder board in our mud room. We went from him following me as I wrote down and prepared everything to then moving to having him start writing and preparing with me helping, now we are at the point where he does it independently.

 

Ds has motor planning challenges which cause some trouble with sequencing so we have had to work very hard on establishing each and every routine he has to make them automatic for him. I have only ever tackled one at a time and start with a backward chaining style of having him do the last step and progressing till we have him doing the whole routine. It takes forever, but it has worked. Once he was good with one of these routine and needs no assistance from me is usually when I will look at tying some other routine to that. So for instance with your example of the chicken care taking I would add a routine either right before or right after that that he has trouble with.

 

We also used the goal, plan, do, check system. It is also known as the Cognitive Orientation to Occupational Performance (CO-OP). We had started using it for ds in OT and PT for his motor planning issues, but you can really apply it to anything. I have always tried to work with ds on setting his own goals. A poster here talked about how her OT had them hang a poster lisitng goals her son was working on. I loved that idea and put one up in our school room. It has been very motivating for ds and continues to be so. Ours has two sides one for goals he is working on and one for goals he has completed. He loves being able to move them over to the completed side.

 

For time management, I have found it very helpful to use Sara Ward of Cognitive Connections ideas for developing sweep of time.

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Using a variety of ideas, there seems to be some progress. DS planned 3 outings he wanted to do (only problem being that I got sick during number 3 and it had to be aborted). They were not especially complicated, but involved even trying to figure out what could go with what...such as combining a restaurant trip he wanted with shopping since we would have to make a long drive and it did not make sense to do it twice...and deciding that the restaurant should come first so that food would not be going bad in the hot car while we were eating, and that similarly, stopping for bales of straw had to be a different trip so as not to have to carry them all the way to the city on the one hand, nor to have the groceries going bad in the heat while getting the straw bales. There seems to be a lot that is almost like a logic puzzle involved.

 

Anyway, then there was putting these things down in a planner with reasonable times assigned, and then figuring out what would have to come before and afterward, and so on.

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Jen, you know I'm going to CRY if you ever stop coming to the boards, right?  :)  Thanks for typing all that out.  How did you FIND these amazing practitioners?  I mean, seriously, around here an OT is hip if they do BalavisX.  Yours just seem to have brought in SO many more methodologies and ideas.  I'm also getting now why the neuropsych honed in on sequencing.  I had NO CLUE it affected so much.  I'll dare to ask here, is there a book on learning about that?  I'm just wondering if that's why ds seems so young?  It's been something we couldn't put our finger on, but maybe that's behind it?  (as in he's not planning out normal things for himself that kids this age normally would?)   I don't know.  We're just so used to him, we aren't comparing him to other kids properly anymore.  I just realized this morning that he wears t-shirts and pull-on shirts every day of the week and that Sundays, the one day with button-front shirts, HE HASN'T BEEN DOING THE BUTTONS!!  Here I assumed he was fine with this, and other people were just doing them for him!!  

 

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OhE, I don't know of any book that really discusses much along those lines. It really is just little tidbits I have picked up from watching and talking to ds's therapists. We are very fortunate to have such a great team of therapists working with him. They all have gone out of their way on several occasions to go over and above for our family. All of them place a big emphasis on parent education which has made such a difference for us.

 

Marie, so very true about visual schedules. People really seem to just associate them with a lower level of functioning and not realize how useful and effective they are to most children. We have utilized them for many of the day to day routines ds now accomplishes automatically. It is also a tool I rely on whenever we seem to get to a sticking point with ds. Usually putting it together allows me to see where my verbal instructions to him have sort of skipped a step or two that you assume others intuitively know -not the case on with ASD, lol.

 

As far as books, most of the planning stuff has really just been an extension of things I have seen his therapists do or things I find on Pinterest. For our current fall goals I am using (hopefully these work, I have the worst luck trying to link from the iPad):

 

http://www.amazon.ca/Autism-Explaining-Awareness-Functioning-Aspergers/dp/1935274910/?psc=1&ref=lh_ni_t&ie=UTF8&smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB

 

http://www.freespirit.com/multiple-intelligences-for-kids/you-are-smarter-than-you-think-thomas-armstrong/?cat_id=1

 

http://www.amazon.ca/Set-Success-Activities-Emotional-Organisational/dp/1849050589/?keywords=et+for+Success%3A+Activities+for+Teaching+Emotional%2C+Social+and+Organizational+Skills.+Josie+Sant&qid=1400960807&ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1&ie=UTF8&sr=8-1-fkmr0

 

http://executivefunctioningsuccess.com/shop/individual-package/

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A couple of specific things I noticed that might help someone else:

 

On the visual planning side, we used post its that fit in an hour slot in the planner and that we could move around as the day got planned. I wrote the words on the post-its to make that part more clear. DS then did some moving around as he thought through what could go when. 

 

I think the quote above put by Marie about not taking a schedule away is important. Some parts though, I think, can get streamlined once understood. For example, in our case where chicken care is happening well, just the word 'chickens' could stand for that. But if something is not yet a routine that is easy then spelling out all the steps is needed. Also, for us, things that do not repeat every day are harder, and I am thinking that a standard form for doing things that do repeat, but not daily would help: like a schedule specific to going to fencing, or church, or swimming, or whatever might be repeated, but with breaks between so that it gets forgotten. This became especially clear recently when part way to the dog park it was suddenly discovered that the dog did not have his leash, for example.

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Certainly! Alyson Beytien is talking with children on the spectrum in mind. She is pointing out that for many this could be their security blanket. There is a different connection to that visual support for someone on the spectrum. It can give him the assurance in knowing that if he forgets a step in a sequence he can look back and remember and in that sense it becomes a security blanket. In my other book the concern is that keeping it longer than necessary can make it become a crutch that prevents the kids from growing and learning independence. Beytien on the other hand believes that this support system should not be taken away as this security helps the autistic person on an emotional level. Personally, I really need to ponder this one to see what I want to do because I see valid points from both sides :tongue_smilie: .

 

 

So far as I know we are not dealing with any ASD here, but we are dealing with EF and sequencing issues. As well, I have had a brain injury myself, and have some personal experience with what seem like similar issues.

 

I think both sides you raised have validity. Where I think the ability to grow and learn independence comes in is with learning to make up one's own sequences--if possible.  

 

Anyway, I think that is what I am trying to help my ds to be able to do right now, to take something that needs to be done and figure out the chain of activities needed to achieve that, not to just follow a sequence I have made for him.

 

It is very complicated really, as time gets translated into a physical/visual dimension of paper or other planning devices.

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... Have you tried getting him to make such a list for tasks that he already knows and does well?...

 

 

We've been working on it where it is something he has done with me (like "go shopping"). I think that I do not want to take something that is going well at present (like "chicken care") and turn it into an exercise that might end up causing difficulties.

 

Yes. You are right that there are two different tasks. There may be more than two, since another has to do with figuring out some goals--that part at least for a short term exercise though went well, as he was able to write out a number of things he wanted to do before summer ends.

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Once again I feel the need to explain my comments here as it would appear that they have been misunderstood. My comments to Jennifer were a form of thank you for having inspired ME with all that she does with her son. My comments were in no way intended to offend anyone or imply anything about how they handle their own unique situation. Jennifer HAS been an inspiration for me these past few years and since I follow her on Pinterest I thought that sharing her materials with us might give those of us that are unsure what to use some ideas. Jennifer had no part in anything I have posted here.

 

As for my research posts and comments there, they again were not meant to be taken as implying anything about anyone. I was just clarifying my position and where I am coming from. My life experiences are different from others and what I have had to face with my boys living in THREE different continents and FOUR different countries has had an impact on how I deal with things. When I share my experiences I SHARE my experiences. I am not trying to target anyone or tell anyone that they should do as I do and most times I clarify that within a post.

 

Anyway, my apologies Pen for all the unrelated comments in your thread. I take full responsibility for them. I do sincerely hope that you find what works for your family.

 

All the best!

 

 

No apologies or explanations were needed!

 

Even when they are not exactly related to our situation, I have found bits and pieces of various ideas here which may help, and in any case it makes it a more worthwhile thread to more people, I think.

 

I imagine that a lot of different LD situations will have problems in planning and organizing, whether it comes from ASD or ADHD or sequencing issues, or various things, and many of the things that help may help more than one.

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Thanks for linking that! The second part also has a group of questions that are highly relevant to this...I'd quote them, but don't know how to do that in a way that is proper according to attribution rules. There

is so much there about not misusing or misattributing anything from the website that I am reluctant to even quote your link above, and wary about them having trademarked the words social thinking. Still, the link has some excellent thoughts.

 

 

 

--------------------

 

Related to this, but a little different:

 

One thing I am not so sure about is the idea (I think it may have been in part 3 from a parent letter???)  that children who are neurotypical would just catch on to things like organization, life skills, etc.  I think maybe it is easier for some, just like reading and math may be easier for neurotypical children than ones with LDs, but I think a lot of teaching and training is given to a lot of "normal" children in the areas of regular life skills.

 

My sense is that "normal" children who have had privileged backgrounds with servants and so on, also generally do not know how to do things like laundry, that these are learned skills. Or also in many families--ones I have personally known-- the boys do not learn how to do it. Mom or sisters do it, and maybe the boys even bring home or mail home their dirty stuff from college. 

 

I don't know.

 

For people who might be reading this still, do you feel that you or other people you know just caught on to all lifeskills areas without being taught or trained in them?

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Thanks for linking that! The second part also has a group of questions that are highly relevant to this...I'd quote them, but don't know how to do that in a way that is proper according to attribution rules. There

is so much there about not misusing or misattributing anything from the website that I am reluctant to even quote your link above, and wary about them having trademarked the words social thinking. Still, the link has some excellent thoughts.

--------------------

Related to this, but a little different:

 

One thing I am not so sure about is the idea (I think it may have been in part 3 from a parent letter???)  that children who are neurotypical would just catch on to things like organization, life skills, etc.  I think maybe it is easier for some, just like reading and math may be easier for neurotypical children than ones with LDs, but I think a lot of teaching and training is given to a lot of "normal" children in the areas of regular life skills.

 

My sense is that "normal" children who have had privileged backgrounds with servants and so on, also generally do not know how to do things like laundry, that these are learned skills. Or also in many families--ones I have personally known-- the boys do not learn how to do it. Mom or sisters do it, and maybe the boys even bring home or mail home their dirty stuff from college. 

 

I don't know.

 

For people who might be reading this still, do you feel that you or other people you know just caught on to all lifeskills areas without being taught or trained in them?

 

I think she's painting with a really broad brush in her article. I think her points are good, but they could also be made for many students who are overly scaffolded for one reason or another. On the flip side, it seems like she's painting a picture that we shouldn't scaffold, we should just settle for less. 

 

My kids attend a program for gifted kids on Saturday morning throughout the school year. This program offers special speakers for parents during the programming for the kids. They have a lady come every year who has decades of experience working with and advocating for gifted kids. Guess what her last talk was on? Guess what gifted kids are hitting the wall and crumbling over? Executive functioning skills!!! It's not just the 2e kids or the kids with EF-related labels. It's gifted kids without a diagnosis as well. In their case, they sometimes have never faced anything challenging until college, so they didn't need to develop strong EF skills. They might not have needed to study, etc., so they didn't have to shuffle lots of activities. In some cases, they were sufficiently challenged, but they were also scaffolded more than necessary (oh dear, she has so many commitments to pad that college application, let me do this task for her).

 

I have real concerns about my son's ability to handle college and a demanding job environment, but vocational programs have some reputations in regard to rough kids that are likely to bully--not exactly what I have in mind. He wants to be a mechanic, and I'll bet he'll be a good one. Ideally, I hope my son decides to pursue a diploma that allows him to attend college if he chooses. I also hope he beats down the door of some understanding mechanic or plumber who will teach him their trade. Then, after he has some work under his belt, I hope he gets a business degree and builds his little empire. :-) Gifted mechanics and plumbers make money hand over fist and tend to manage it well. They fix luxury cars and imports, not someone's old beater on its last legs; they renovate and do plumbing for clients with money to spend on quality enhancements. And they retire early, have second careers later in other fields, build amazing businesses that employ others. I would love to see someone sketch that path out for us so that we can help our son in this direction (if he chooses, and if he turns out to be talented this way). We know someone who went this direction (job in the trades, second career in the medical field, currently works both jobs because he doesn't require much sleep!), and I'm hoping he'll be a resource, but I have a feeling he'll be living on some private island somewhere before we get to a point that we can act on any of this. And guess what, my son will probably need a bit of scaffolding to do this as well, but with less pressure on the timeline and school front, we might be able to work it out appropriately. But you know what? Our psychologist is 2e, and as a fully functioning adult, she scaffolds herself too--she has a personal assistant to handle details and such. There are LOTS of kinds of scaffolding.

 

Lots of kids slip through the cracks who don't have a diagnosis. I'm all for preparing for a realistic future, but I think Ms. Winner often paints a really bleak picture without offering anything that sounds hopeful in its place. Maybe she does that in the remaining series, but I read just the first article. I am impressed with much of her work that I've seen, but a huge part of me wants to dig a hole in the ground and wait for the end of the world after I read or listen to her stuff. 

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I just looked at the link.  

 

If you don't think it is related to your kids ----- please don't take it personally.

 

But I read it nodding and nodding my head wrt my cousin.  I think it is something that could help people who are the right audience.  

 

But I bet she wrote it with a target audience in mind ---- I can see how it is not a nice thing to read when it is not going to be constructive.  

 

I also have already had people talking to me about "less is more" wrt aide support and supports.  My own first instinct was to think "I could not disagree more, I want what is best for my son, I will get what is best for him."  But over the past year or so I have had it niggling me and now I am seeing more what the person who said it to me meant.  

 

Really -- I think she has realized, she had better plant the seed a year or two before it is ever likely to come up, so that parents don't have the intense negative reaction I had when it is brought up to them.  

 

But I don't think that means kids don't need or deserve supports -- just that sometimes it is better to be realistic in transition plans, and also sometimes it it better to have a lower result without supports in the short term.  No, it is not always the best.  But sometimes it is.  I think you look and see -- what do kids need the most.  If they need to do academics with supports, that is what they need.  If they need to focus more on their management of their own life, then that is also a realistic better choice.  But I think she makes a good point, for people who really don't know, or are really caught up in their kid meeting certain milestones (this is how my aunt has always been -- if my cousin meets certain milestones, then it means "things are okay" to her, but she will do anything to make the milestones happen).  

 

But I don't think it is something to read and feel like you should not provide accommodations for kids, either.  I don't think it is something to take personally.  Just something to take as one data point, I guess.  

 

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I just looked at the link.  

 

If you don't think it is related to your kids ----- please don't take it personally.

 

But I read it nodding and nodding my head wrt my cousin.  I think it is something that could help people who are the right audience.  

 

But I bet she wrote it with a target audience in mind ---- I can see how it is not a nice thing to read when it is not going to be constructive.  

 

I also have already had people talking to me about "less is more" wrt aide support and supports.  My own first instinct was to think "I could not disagree more, I want what is best for my son, I will get what is best for him."  But over the past year or so I have had it niggling me and now I am seeing more what the person who said it to me meant.  

 

Really -- I think she has realized, she had better plant the seed a year or two before it is ever likely to come up, so that parents don't have the intense negative reaction I had when it is brought up to them.  

 

But I don't think that means kids don't need or deserve supports -- just that sometimes it is better to be realistic in transition plans, and also sometimes it it better to have a lower result without supports in the short term.  No, it is not always the best.  But sometimes it is.  I think you look and see -- what do kids need the most.  If they need to do academics with supports, that is what they need.  If they need to focus more on their management of their own life, then that is also a realistic better choice.  But I think she makes a good point, for people who really don't know, or are really caught up in their kid meeting certain milestones (this is how my aunt has always been -- if my cousin meets certain milestones, then it means "things are okay" to her, but she will do anything to make the milestones happen).  

 

But I don't think it is something to read and feel like you should not provide accommodations for kids, either.  I don't think it is something to take personally.  Just something to take as one data point, I guess.  

 

That makes sense. I don't hear that sort of tone coming across, but I can see this point of view and see the need for it. I think it's just a personality thing with how I hear her.

 

One of the first friends we told about my son's ASD diagnosis thanked me for recognizing that my son needed help. Her nephew is (probably) profoundly gifted, and her sister's family focused on what he was capable of while glossing over the difficulties. They've never sought diagnosis for a quirky child, and now he is brilliant and qualified to do high paying work...but nobody will work with him because he's too difficult. My friend thinks her nephew is probably on the spectrum. I can see this article being for someone who is about to mistakenly head down that path of "see, everything is just fine" because you always want to believe the most successful scenario. Thanks for the perspective. 

 

I still want to build a bunker and wait for the end of the world though... ;)

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