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Guest Rebecca612

I've spent the last two days researching here and got a LOT of my questions answered. This forum is a goldmine!!! However, now I have all new questions after all the reading I've done ;) Please bear with me if any of this is redundant or has already been covered and I missed the thread! Feel free to link and redirect me to any threads your think would help :)

 

My questions are:

  1. VERITAS: I've read a lot about how Omnibus is more GB with a little bit of history and I personally would prefer the subjects to be more equal. For those of you with Omnibus experience, does the program allow room to add more history on my own? Would I be doing WAY too much and overloading my student if I did that? Any suggestions on how I could add more history to Omnibus? I just love the self-paced samples of Omnibus on their site and I can't seem to write them off just yet since I really like everything else about it. 
  2. TOG: Would I be better off just to go with TOG for the rhetoric stage? It seems (from what I've read here) that it's more balanced on history/GBs than Omnibus. However, TOG seems like a beast of a curriculum and I can't make heads or tails of the free samples online :/ Would someone ease my mind that I can teach and lead my kids in great dialectic conversations through our history studies and literary analyses without a formal "teacher/tutor" as would be offered through VPs self-paced Omnibus?
  3. CC Challenge: After being in CC for 4 years, and listening to the Challenge push every summer at Practicum, I was still not convinced or sold on the program for our family. I drank the Kool-Aid the first 2 years but thankfully I woke up to other options and researched classical education outside of what CC/Leigh teaches. The only thing I liked about Challenge was the opportunity for my dc to have peers that are reading and studying the same things, and the ability to have those priceless dialectic discussions with their peers. I also liked the ease of doing mock trials and debates through the program. HOWEVER, and that's a BIG however! After seeing so much in the last 4 years, the company (not my local community which is lovely!) has left a very bad taste in my mouth. Their politics, their choke-hold on local directors, the inconsistency throughout the administration, intimidation tactics, and hypocrisy in their dealings with local communities is incredibly disappointing. But still, what are the other options? Where else can my dc have dialectic discussions about the GBs they'll be reading, history they'll be analyzing, and all of the wonderful topics that come with the Rhetoric stage? Do I ask grandparents, aunts and cousins to read the same books so they have someone else to discuss ideas with besides mom and dad? lol! Please, tell me there are options outside of Challenge?! :) Then also, how do you tackle Mock Trial on your own? Speech and debate? 

That was way to long but alas, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the above. Is TOG my answer and I'm just in denial? ;) Self-paced Omnibus just looks so neatly packaged! And I don't want my kids to miss out on the conversations that Challenge allows for... your thoughts please?!

 

 

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I can heartily recommend TOG for Rhetoric! I have seen such growth in my children in the two years we have done this level. They both scored very well on the Critical Reading portion of the SAT this spring and attribute that to the reading requirements of TOG.

 

However, I must be honest and say it was not always this way. We struggled to complete Y3 Dialectic our first year with TOG when ds was 9th and dd was 8th. The discussions took forever and we got behind. But, it may just have been our dynamics because I know there are other families who have accomplished this on their own. Keeping to a weekly schedule is KEY. We had one, but did not always stay on track...too many reasons unnecessary to explain :)

 

Two years ago we joined a virtual co-op for Y4 Rhetoric and it made all the difference in the world. We not only had a weekly schedule, but dc were compelled to keep up with the work. The discussions were held weekly in History and Literature with about 10 other R-level students. The moms rotate leading the discussions and students participate in numerous ways. Each virtual co-op varies with their expectations - ours requires weekly HW to be turned in, occasional PowerPoint mini-reports, and participation in weekly discussions. Co-ops also vary in which TOG subjects they offer and the levels they offer. You can join the Yahoo group below to ask about joining co-ops that have openings in the TOG year you will be studying.

 

TOGVirtualCo-opSynergy@yahoogroups.com

 

Ironically, before we started in our virtual co-op I was seriously considering CC. But, I couldn't reconcile some of the approach AND we were out of sync with where we would have jumped in the cycle. Very happy we stuck it out with TOG.

 

Hope this helps!

Pamela

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Have you considered a homeschool Speech & Debate league? They debate a topic thoroughly for one year. The students learn that topic inside and out based on the effort put forth by the student. They also have a category called Extempt. Here they find articles from the news and file them. Then they practice giving speeches about current news topics.

 

http://www.ncfca.org

 

http://www.stoausa.org

 

When they go to tournaments, they will debate in front of other adults. The adult judges will let them know how convincing their arguments were by casting a vote on the ballot. The students will meet other like minded students and get to practice speaking in front a broad range of people in the community. The students will get practice in communicating their ideals.

 

If they participate in the speech part, they have the opportunity to write speeches. These speeches can incorporate many speech devices to make their speeches more persuasive.

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Obviously a very individual choice.

 

We were involved with CC for years into the Challenge years and left because the one-size-fits all wasn't working for us.  I was particularly disappointed with our experience with Latin there, and I actually outsourced Latin in addition to Challenge past Challenge A.  And frankly the discussions were not what I had hoped, but part of that was other factors.

 

I used TOG years ago, and it was not a good fit for me.  Just way more than I was into.  The content was great, but how it worked wasn't.

 

One of mine uses Omnibus with online classes with VPSA.  It's been a great fit both in terms of the books, having teachers who love history/lit, and the interactions.  Keep in mind that you can use a lower-level Omni with an older kid, i.e. not just 7th graders do Omni I.  I was skeptical, but I kept track of the hours and looked at other programs with similar books, and I feel solid in giving high school credit.  Indeed it is probably lighter in history than some, but I wouldn't say that it is light when you compare across all homeschool curriculum.  It is very strong in worldview, if that is important to you.

 

My other kid takes a local class with a teacher who does a custom mix but bases the class on Omnibus.  And that's been good too.  She's talking about maybe going to VPSA for 11th and 12th, but we'll see.  Even a one-morning class changes the whole week.

 

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I have not begun Omni yet, but as we are beginning next year - and I was agonizing like you are - I have heard of many using the corresponding Speilvogel Western Civ text. If you look on the Veritas Website it gives the corresponding pages to go with each chapter to bulk up the history. We are purchasing an older edition on the Speilvogel because the new one is 120 dollars. You can get older editions for around fifty on Amazon.

 

I do not know if that helps or not, but hopefully you can find something that will work for y'all!

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I wouldn't choose CC if you are looking for Great Books discussion or a strong history program. Those are two of the weak points mentioned often, and part of the reason we left after Challenge A (me as director, dc as students) was because of the literature choices. I'll also be really honest and say that I though Mock Trial was pointless. Speech and debate seems worthwhile, but I don't think it is the only way. We did logic and rhetoric at home, and dd had many chances to speak in public, and I found her better equipped than her peers who did a lot of debate or mock trial. And for the conversation, couldn't you spend less and do the VP online Omni courses?

 

We did WTM and VP Omnibus. The history came from using all of Spielvogel, not parts of it, and from extra reading. VP Omni is designed for students who already have an amazing grasp of history from VP 2-6, but dd didn't have that (we were relaxed in history/science in the early years.) I wanted to like TOG more, but I wanted more literature.

 

 

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Guest Rebecca612

I can heartily recommend TOG for Rhetoric! I have seen such growth in my children in the two years we have done this level. They both scored very well on the Critical Reading portion of the SAT this spring and attribute that to the reading requirements of TOG.

 

However, I must be honest and say it was not always this way. We struggled to complete Y3 Dialectic our first year with TOG when ds was 9th and dd was 8th. The discussions took forever and we got behind. But, it may just have been our dynamics because I know there are other families who have accomplished this on their own. Keeping to a weekly schedule is KEY. We had one, but did not always stay on track...too many reasons unnecessary to explain :)

 

Two years ago we joined a virtual co-op for Y4 Rhetoric and it made all the difference in the world. We not only had a weekly schedule, but dc were compelled to keep up with the work. The discussions were held weekly in History and Literature with about 10 other R-level students. The moms rotate leading the discussions and students participate in numerous ways. Each virtual co-op varies with their expectations - ours requires weekly HW to be turned in, occasional PowerPoint mini-reports, and participation in weekly discussions. Co-ops also vary in which TOG subjects they offer and the levels they offer. You can join the Yahoo group below to ask about joining co-ops that have openings in the TOG year you will be studying.

 

TOGVirtualCo-opSynergy@yahoogroups.com

 

Ironically, before we started in our virtual co-op I was seriously considering CC. But, I couldn't reconcile some of the approach AND we were out of sync with where we would have jumped in the cycle. Very happy we stuck it out with TOG.

 

Hope this helps!

Pamela

 

PamelaLA, thanks for such thorough feedback on TOG! I had no idea they had the virtual co-ops. That seems like a great alternative! I'll definitely look into it more now :)

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Guest Rebecca612

Have you considered a homeschool Speech & Debate league? They debate a topic thoroughly for one year. The students learn that topic inside and out based on the effort put forth by the student. They also have a category called Extempt. Here they find articles from the news and file them. Then they practice giving speeches about current news topics.

 

http://www.ncfca.org

 

http://www.stoausa.org

 

When they go to tournaments, they will debate in front of other adults. The adult judges will let them know how convincing their arguments were by casting a vote on the ballot. The students will meet other like minded students and get to practice speaking in front a broad range of people in the community. The students will get practice in communicating their ideals.

 

If they participate in the speech part, they have the opportunity to write speeches. These speeches can incorporate many speech devices to make their speeches more persuasive.

purplelily - I haven't looked into homeschool speech and debate clubs. I wasn't sure they even existed! Now that you mention it though, I think I ran across one at our local homeschool conference. I'll have to look back in the vendor list and see if I can find them! It may even be one of the organizations you linked ;) Regardless, I'm loving what I've read so far on NCFCA and Stoa. Thanks so much for the tip!

 

Obviously a very individual choice.

 

We were involved with CC for years into the Challenge years and left because the one-size-fits all wasn't working for us.  I was particularly disappointed with our experience with Latin there, and I actually outsourced Latin in addition to Challenge past Challenge A.  And frankly the discussions were not what I had hoped, but part of that was other factors.

 

I used TOG years ago, and it was not a good fit for me.  Just way more than I was into.  The content was great, but how it worked wasn't.

 

One of mine uses Omnibus with online classes with VPSA.  It's been a great fit both in terms of the books, having teachers who love history/lit, and the interactions.  Keep in mind that you can use a lower-level Omni with an older kid, i.e. not just 7th graders do Omni I.  I was skeptical, but I kept track of the hours and looked at other programs with similar books, and I feel solid in giving high school credit.  Indeed it is probably lighter in history than some, but I wouldn't say that it is light when you compare across all homeschool curriculum.  It is very strong in worldview, if that is important to you.

 

My other kid takes a local class with a teacher who does a custom mix but bases the class on Omnibus.  And that's been good too.  She's talking about maybe going to VPSA for 11th and 12th, but we'll see.  Even a one-morning class changes the whole week.

G502 - thanks for the feedback on your experience with Challenge. I feel better knowing the "conversations" that were taking place weren't worth the money. It's not cheap, that's for sure! And I'm glad you mentioned the Latin. I was feeling like the program moved a little slowly in that area and I've never liked that they used the classical pronunciation. 

 

I have not begun Omni yet, but as we are beginning next year - and I was agonizing like you are - I have heard of many using the corresponding Speilvogel Western Civ text. If you look on the Veritas Website it gives the corresponding pages to go with each chapter to bulk up the history. We are purchasing an older edition on the Speilvogel because the new one is 120 dollars. You can get older editions for around fifty on Amazon.

 

I do not know if that helps or not, but hopefully you can find something that will work for y'all!

Thanks so much for the tip on Speilvogel with the corresponding text! That's awesome! Glad to hear there are used versions on Amazon too ;)

 

I wouldn't choose CC if you are looking for Great Books discussion or a strong history program. Those are two of the weak points mentioned often, and part of the reason we left after Challenge A (me as director, dc as students) was because of the literature choices. I'll also be really honest and say that I though Mock Trial was pointless. Speech and debate seems worthwhile, but I don't think it is the only way. We did logic and rhetoric at home, and dd had many chances to speak in public, and I found her better equipped than her peers who did a lot of debate or mock trial. And for the conversation, couldn't you spend less and do the VP online Omni courses?

 

We did WTM and VP Omnibus. The history came from using all of Spielvogel, not parts of it, and from extra reading. VP Omni is designed for students who already have an amazing grasp of history from VP 2-6, but dd didn't have that (we were relaxed in history/science in the early years.) I wanted to like TOG more, but I wanted more literature.

angela, thanks for your feedback! Definitely reaffirms that I definitely don't want to do Challenge. I hadn't attended a Mock Trial but so glad to hear it wasn't all it's cracked up to be ;) I so appreciate your honesty. Challenge is crazy expensive for what seems like a huge lack of real content. VP self-paced Omnibus is much more reasonable considering it's taught by real professors (plus much better content!) and now that I've learned I can add Speilvogel to beef up the history, I'm really starting to think that's the best way to go for us :) I don't want to force myself to embrace TOG if I don't have to ;)

 

 

Thanks again everyone, reading all of these has really helped! I'm loving this forum :)

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G502 - thanks for the feedback on your experience with Challenge. I feel better knowing the "conversations" that were taking place weren't worth the money. It's not cheap, that's for sure! And I'm glad you mentioned the Latin. I was feeling like the program moved a little slowly in that area and I've never liked that they used the classical pronunciation. 

 

Thanks again everyone, reading all of these has really helped! I'm loving this forum :)

 

FWIW CC has changed the Latin a bit over the years.  

 

When we started they were using Latin's Not So Tough in Challenge A and B and Henle in Challenge I-IV, but the Challenge A tutor went "rogue" and used Henle.  I happen to like Henle and worked through the whole Henle I book that year.  Then the following year, the Challenge B tutor followed the party line and used Latin's Not So Tough.  I outsourced with a teacher that used Henle.  It was a good class, but I decided that we needed to make a change to a program and curriculum that was more in line with the National Latin Exam and the AP/SAT II.  Pronouncing Latin has never been a biggie for me, and frankly none of the Challenge tutors we had were consistent anyway.  My younger one did Henle in Challenge A after CC switched to Henle for all levels, but it was really easy and we did additional reading outside of class with other Latin readers.  I taught Challenge II Latin for two years using Henle II.

 

After that, we went to online Latin teachers.  No regrets.  I came to the conclusion that foreign languages past a certain level should be taught by people who know what they're doing (I really don't), and that if NLE/AP/SAT II is a goal, there are better choices than Henle unless you're prepared to supplement.

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Just wanted to share that if you choose to go with Spielvogel, watch Ebay as well. I picked up a band new Western Civ 8th edition for $60.00. :001_smile: Best wishes.

I have not begun Omni yet, but as we are beginning next year - and I was agonizing like you are - I have heard of many using the corresponding Speilvogel Western Civ text. If you look on the Veritas Website it gives the corresponding pages to go with each chapter to bulk up the history. We are purchasing an older edition on the Spielvogel because the new one is 120 dollars. You can get older editions for around fifty on Amazon.

I do not know if that helps or not, but hopefully you can find something that will work for y'all!

 

 

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We are very happy so far with Classical Conversations.  And I am relieved that the Latin does not move any faster than it does, at least for my son who just used Henle for the first time in Challenge A this past year.  I prefer First Form, Second Form, etc. Latin by Memoria Press for ease of learning, but I am thankful that they repeat and build upon Henle year by year.  I've been reading through the Challenge B guide and setting up a schedule.  Plus we visited our local campus when the class participated in the Mock Trial (with a judge who was a judge in real life).  I am really pleased with CC overall and hope to use it all the way through high school. 

 

I have used MFW for history most of the time up to now, including using their 9th grade Ancients to supplement Challenge B.  We are finishing up week 10 as we were able to begin it May 1st when CC was finished for the summer.  Since CC is only 30 weeks, you would be free to supplement with whatever you wanted to round out your dc's program...just in case you were still in a mode to consider Challenge I-IV.  Additionally, we are supplementing with an online science program for my son.  I am hoping we will be able to continue that course, using the Apologia taught in CC for the experience with the labs (which I do not want to do at home).

 

Blessings,

Brenda

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When I researched both Omnibus and TOG, I chose TOG for our DD because of her love of history and TOG's more in-depth history program.  I also noticed that TOG (redesigned version) is comparable to Omnibus with their literature choices.  I'm not sure many people are aware of that.

 

For example, the lit for TOG Y1 is as follows:

  • The Iliad
  • The Aeneid
  • Aeschylus I
  • Anchor Book of Chinese Poetry
  • Ancient Egyptian Literature - composed of ancient stories, poetry, hymns, prayers & wisdom texts
  • Euripides III
  • From Distant Days - Myths, Tales, & Poetry of Ancient Mesopotamia
  • Odyssey
  • The Poetry Handbook
  • Sophocles I
  • Words of Delight: A Literary Introduction to the Bible

 

I also liked the fact that I could use the teacher's notes or listen to Pop Quiz (if I choose to order that component) to keep up to speed with what DD is learning and engage in the Socratic discussions with her.  I don't need to read every book she is reading.

 

In addition, I was pleased to see that government, poetry, and philosophy were electives already built into TOG for a nominal supplemental fee.  We are starting a philosophy class this year: Philosophy Adventures, and will continue with additional philosophy classes throughout middle school.  That way I think DD will be well prepared for the philosophy elective in TOG's Rhetoric program.

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I'll third/fourth the reservations about Challenge given your needs/concerns. In case you didn't stumble across them already, here were some recent threads that were active around the time we decided to pull out of CC and not do Challenge (the one-size-fits-all issue when we needed more rigor/challenge): 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/494523-does-anyone-else-think-classical-conversations-is-neither/

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/510149-wtm-way-andor-cc-challenge-a-for-7th-grade/

 

Like you, I was VERY grieved about the loss of the "dialectic discussions over a common content" with the loss of the option of Challenge. After reading the other threads, it became apparent that one's experience depended a LOT on the tutor and on the quality of the other students in the class (were they motivated, coming to class prepared for discussion?), so that "dialectic discussions over a common content" may be more talking point than reality in some cases? From what I could tell, neither the materials nor the tutor training actually HELPS the tutor in making the connections, it solely relies upon their ability to see those connections in-the-moment and utilize them effectively. So tutor matters a lot.

 

I've looked into Omnibus and am SERIOUSLY tempted. DD watched the sample online videos for the Self-Paced program and LOVED it, and I love/want her to have the depth/rigor/quality of the GB education. And I want her to have -enough- history but I don't know exactly what I intend that to look like yet (I've still got so much to learn, CC was our first full year of homeschooling), so Omnibus might be adequate in that regard. But it's a bit early for that this year (6th grade). 

 

After much flailing about and hearing that I should consider TOG again and again from local people, I am starting it this year. I am most excited about the teacher training aspect of it. The coaching of the teacher/parent in making connections, leading the students in increased independence in thinking, analysis, and self-management as well! It is their intention to lead/guide you in having the socratic discussions with your children. Not just tell you to have them. 

 

I'll second the recommendation for the virtual co-ops or live online classes through Tapestry. Things are still coming together for our plans for this year so we won't participate but I hope to next year (unless we choose Omnibus - HA!).

 

I'll also second the recommendation for trying to find (or if necessary, start) a debate club. I went to an NCFCA meeting a week or so ago, and I was VERY impressed. But DD is too young this year....

 

I will also add that I think that you really have to TRY the TOG sample to be able to get a handle on it. Like, sit down and set up a binder and print out the week-plan and assign readings, etc. I have learned SO much these past few weeks as I've been doing just that.

 

 

But then again, I don't think you'll go wrong at all by going with Omnibus.... ;)

 

 

 

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