So disturbed by this shooting, and the aftermath

[prairiewindmomma]

Really, I always thought it was going to be East St. Louis that would be the part of town that would blow up.  I knew there was building resentment in Maryland Heights and Ferguson (especially compared to Clayton, Town & Country, etc.), but I see how St. Louis Co. cops coming in could certainly heighten the tension.

[Pawz4me]

The incident with the journalists is very disturbing and worrying.  I think it's time for the National Guard to be brought in and for all the local law enforcement to be removed until this is sorted out and things calm down.

[Stacia]

A highly militarized police force taking out journalists because they don't want their actions recorded? *THAT* is disturbing.

It is very disturbing, and it quite frankly scares me.

 

I agree.

[mommymilkies]

Here's the second perspective in the Guardian. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/ferguson-police-teargas-rubber-bullets-michael-brown

 

The Al-Jazeera team was shot with rubber bullets, and the tear gas was aimed *at* them when they were filming the protestors. Likewise, the "Posts" teams were arrested while they were filming.

 

A highly militarized police force taking out journalists because they don't want their actions recorded? *THAT* is disturbing.

Sickening.  

[AlmiraGulch]

Every report I've read has said that it happened exactly as you stated. It's ridiculous.

 

I do think that the Ferguson police department is totally out of their element, but I think the real problem is the county police, who came riding in to save the day. They're the ones acting as military on the streets. But we've got a few press conferences coming up here that are pointing to the possibility of the National Guard being brought in, so maybe we'll get actual military on the streets. Perhaps they can protect the people of Ferguson and the reporters from the police force.

 

I just read that the Governor is pulling the County cops out of Ferguson.  

 

I think that's very good news.

[MrsMommy]

Waiting to hear what the President has to add...

[AlmiraGulch]

Here's the second perspective in the Guardian. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/ferguson-police-teargas-rubber-bullets-michael-brown

 

The Al-Jazeera team was shot with rubber bullets, and the tear gas was aimed *at* them when they were filming the protestors. Likewise, the "Posts" teams were arrested while they were filming.

 

A highly militarized police force taking out journalists because they don't want their actions recorded? *THAT* is disturbing.

 

Disgusting.  

[albeto.]

I just read that the Governor is pulling the County cops out of Ferguson.  

 

I think that's very good news.

 

I'm not so optimistic. Private SWAT teams don't seem to me to be an improvement, and I can't help but be cynical enough to expect that.

[albeto.]

Disgusting.  

 

Right?  

[AlmiraGulch]

I'm not so optimistic. Private SWAT teams don't seem to me to be an improvement, and I can't help but be cynical enough to expect that.

 

I believe they said they're sending in the National Guard.  

[celticmom]

Here's the second perspective in the Guardian. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/ferguson-police-teargas-rubber-bullets-michael-brown

 

The Al-Jazeera team was shot with rubber bullets, and the tear gas was aimed *at* them when they were filming the protestors. Likewise, the "Posts" teams were arrested while they were filming.

 

A highly militarized police force taking out journalists because they don't want their actions recorded? *THAT* is disturbing.

 

:iagree: Liking this, especially the bolded just wasn't enough. It is very sad and disturbing but I see protests after events such as these as indicative of a major loss of trust in the authorities to properly investigate and punish police brutality. The police reaction to the protests is not doing anything to rebuild any trust. I find myself trusting law enforcement less and less and I say that as a white middle class woman(by that I mean that I am not in a group that is likely to be profiled, not that profiling is right but it does seem to happen).

[plumshadow]

http://www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/08/things-stop-distracted-black-person-gets-murdered-police/  This is an accurate article that might shed light to anyone who does not have expericance with the plight of the African American man (or woman) or of raising one in what is supposed to be a post civil rights world. It also explains the looting. 

[Slartibartfast]

I am glad the governor is taking action. This is horrifying. With the recent actions of the police one has to wonder what was happening before this all started.

[Word Nerd]

Here's a related story I found interesting...and also scary.

[MrsMommy]

Well, they're not sending in the National Guard (yet)...instead they're going to be using the Missouri Highway Patrol. And this after the St. Louis city police chief publicly said he will not be getting his people involved.

 

Watching and praying this is the right move, and things calm down.

[Annie Laurie]

Another solid perspective on police brutality and racial bias.

 

http://www.rageagainsttheminivan.com/2014/08/racial-bias-police-brutality-and.html

[BarbecueMom]

I used to work for St. Louis County Police. I have no idea what the hell happened and what the leadership is thinking (perhaps they aren't). The upper ranks have changed since I was there. Friends and acquaintances at the department have gone "radio silent" on social media, deleting accounts and changing names, and I'd really appreciate it if no one else died in all of this. Not another innocent civilian nor an officer trying to do ther job.

 

Even more disturbing, my mom's boss was at a local hunting/fishing outfitter type store a couple nights ago, on the opposite side of the county from Ferguson. There were lines of freaked out people at the gun counter because they are thinking the metro area is under some sort of invasion or something. There was a woman there who said she'd never held a gun before, but wanted to buy one that day, and couldn't quit pointing it at the clerk, herself, and everyone else around her. Incompetent, ignorant people packing heat is exactly what WON'T help this situation, goodness gracious.

 

I haven't even really wrapped my head around any of this yet, partly because I've really only read headlines and haven't been watching or reading news lately.

[MrsMommy]

I used to work for St. Louis County Police. I have no idea what the hell happened and what the leadership is thinking (perhaps they aren't). The upper ranks have changed since I was there. Friends and acquaintances at the department have gone "radio silent" on social media, deleting accounts and changing names, and I'd really appreciate it if no one else died in all of this. Not another innocent civilian nor an officer trying to do ther job.

 

Even more disturbing, my mom's boss was at a local hunting/fishing outfitter type store a couple nights ago, on the opposite side of the county from Ferguson. There were lines of freaked out people at the gun counter because they are thinking the metro area is under some sort of invasion or something. There was a woman there who said she'd never held a gun before, but wanted to buy one that day, and couldn't quit pointing it at the clerk, herself, and everyone else around her. Incompetent, ignorant people packing heat is exactly what WON'T help this situation, goodness gracious.

 

I haven't even really wrapped my head around any of this yet, partly because I've really only read headlines and haven't been watching or reading news lately.

 

Gun sales are indeed up all over the metro. Because that's going to help this situation, right?

 

The commander they brought in from the MO Highway Patrol seems level headed, and very concerned about the children of the area...I'm hoping he can help bring peace to Ferguson.

[BarbecueMom]

Gun sales are indeed up all over the metro. Because that's going to help this situation, right?

 

The commander they brought in from the MO Highway Patrol seems level headed, and very concerned about the children of the area...I'm hoping he can help bring peace to Ferguson.

Ferguson-Florissant cancelled school this week, which is a shame because the kids, especially the teenage boys, need a safe place to talk about this and have someone listen to them.

[MrsMommy]

Ferguson-Florissant cancelled school this week, which is a shame because the kids, especially the teenage boys, need a safe place to talk about this and have someone listen to them.

 

I can kind of see both sides of the school issue, because it would be horrifying if something happened at a school. But I don't think that was too likely, and you're right, the children need a safe place and some sense of routine and normalcy, especially right now.

[SadieMarie]

I think Rand Paul does a nice job breaking down the problems http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/

 

(and that is the last time I wil ever say that lol).

[albeto.]

I think Rand Paul does a nice job breaking down the problems http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/

 

(and that is the last time I wil ever say that lol).

 

He says, "Not surprisingly, big government has been at the heart of the problem. Washington has incentivized the militarization of local police precincts by using federal dollars to help municipal governments build what are essentially small armies—where police departments compete to acquire military gear that goes far beyond what most of Americans think of as law enforcement."

 

I call shenanigans. 

 

Nothing is ever that simple. Where does he think these weapons and other equipment comes from?

 

According to the American Civil Liberties Union, the Department of Defense has transferred $4.3 billion in military equipment to local and state police through the 1033 program, first enacted in 1996 at the height of the so-called War on Drugs. The Department of Justice, according to the ACLU, “plays an important role in the militarization of the police†through its grant programs. It’s not that individual police officers are bad people – it’s that shifts in the American culture of policing encourages officers to “think of the people they serve as enemies.â€

 

Since 2001, the Department of Homeland Security has encouraged further militarization of police through federal funds for “terrorism prevention.†The armored vehicles, assault weapons, and body armor borne by the police in Ferguson are the fruit of turning police into soldiers. Training materials obtained by the ACLU encourage departments to “build the right mind-set in your troops†in order to thwart “terrorist plans to massacre our schoolchildren.†It is possible that, since 9/11, police militarization has massacred more American schoolchildren than any al-Qaida terrorist.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-weapons-war-us-citys-streets

 

[offered just as food for thought]

 

 

Why not blame increasing protection of corporate "rights;" increasing media bias; anti-intellectualism; "war on [drugs, terror, fill in the blank]; spying on its own citizens (you read about Google turning in a pedophile by scanning private emails?); or Congressional corruption? This is a messy, complicated issue and we should balk at any attempt to blame one target as being "at the heart" (Big Government, Immigrants, GOP, Teh Gays). 

 

I suspect its a growing perfect storm, and the evolution of any organization is to secure its existence. One way in which this is carried out is through the idea that these things are good ideas. Government is no exception. Computer oriented business do the same. Corporations do the same. There is no "heart of the problem," in my completely ill-informed opinion. Just throwin' it out there. 

[Lisbeth]

I can't say I blame the citizens buying guns. They don't want to be sitting ducks in the middle of unbridled chaos. Expect more of this. What if white people starting looting and rioting for every "polar bear" knockout game? What if people in border towns decide there is no law and order and protection for them, and take up arms? It's coming. When folks on both sides of whatever divide decide they are on their own...expect chaos...vigilantism, strong reactions, us vs. them, the bubba effect, etc.  

 

Looting and rioting is just so ignorant and embarrassing for the human race. So base. So indicative of prioritizing stuff over human life and higher ideals.  It's an insult to this dead kid. 

[Word Nerd]

Paul also said, "When you couple this militarization of law enforcement with an erosion of civil liberties and due process that allows the police to become judge and jury—national security letters, no-knock searches, broad general warrants, pre-conviction forfeiture—we begin to have a very serious problem on our hands." No one claimed it was simple.

[SadieMarie]

He has to talk about big government. He is Rand Paul lol. Maybe it is the big government being in the pocket of industrial military complex (or military industrial complex, I have sick kids and am not thinking straight). And I think it was Eisenhower who first called that alarm.

[Slojo]

I find these situations interesting because the default is for the public to assume he was shot because of race.  Nobody is willing to consider that his skin color might not be the issue, it may just be that he was being a punk.  Still not necessarily justifiable (being a punk isn't a reason to be shot) but it is possible that not everyone who has a negative interaction with a black person has that interaction because of their race.  

 

Maybe he was being a punk, maybe he wasn't. Plenty of smart-mouthed teenage punks roaming the country - most of them aren't dead and should have no reason to fear for their lives. Are we really suggesting that being a smart-mouthed teenager is a crime punishable by death?  The pattern of African Americans receiving harsher reactions/sanctions/punishments from law enforcement for the same actions displayed by white individuals has strong evidence. If being an unarmed "punk" is enough to get you killed, why is this guy still alive and breathing? Apparently, this man (who happens to be white) literally pointed his gun at three members of the New Orleans Police Department and when told to drop his weapon, answered, "No, you drop your ____________ gun."  He's alive -- and handled properly by the police who took him into custody, but the smart mouthed black kid deserved what he got?

 

Secondly, the "jump to race" in such situations isn't such a leap when one can see a clear pattern of these kinds of altercations between young black men (who end up being unarmed) happen over and over and over. It would be emotionally and intellectually dishonest to not begin to connect the dots, huh?  I get that most people are uncomfortable believing that such disparities exist, but discomfort doesn't excuse any of us from an honest look at the numbers piling up -- and, to be clear, I'm talking about unarmed individuals here. As the mother of black sons who will be teenagers within the next five years, yeah, I'm looking at the numbers and they frighten me. So maybe the kid was respectful and cooperative, and maybe not -- as a youth worker, I've certainly run into my share of less-than-respectful, smart-mouthed teens of all races, but not once did I think, "For that, you deserve death." They are teens -- who sometimes lack judgement as to when to just say, "Yes, ma'am." And we don't even know if this teen was or was not respectful, but it is dehumanizing and quite the slippery slope to suggest that being a punk = deserves a bullet, especially when apparently -- well, at least some folks get to actually live after much more egregious acts of defiance and disrespect. 

 

I don't care how much the "elders" tell the youth that their lives have value, if you see your unarmed friend gunned down by police, that is going to have an effect on you.

 

And as far as the media, given that they're being removed from the area, and arrested in some cases, I think they're just trying to get the basic facts of the issue out. They can only delve so far when the police keep showing them the door.

 

Ferguson looks like a war zone. There is no excuse for that. Most of the people they took in last night (including a St. Louis Alderman who was picked up for unlawful assembly because he didn't get OUT of his car) were demonstrating peaceably, which I'm pretty sure the Constitution grants them the right to do.

 

Agreed. Peaceful demonstrations should be met by a peaceful police presence. It is really disturbing and is reminiscent of 1964. Round up the actual minority of people who may have been breaking the law, but leave the rest of them alone. Any normal community would want to understand how this could happen, would have their faith shaken in the ability to local law enforcement to "serve and protect." I don't begrudge them that. 

People have been doing. The news reports have told a story of parents who were very involved in their child's life, encouraging him to strive for better, and he was still gunned down. People are trying to do by peacefully protesting, and model a proper use of their Constitutional rights, and they're being arrested. All the doing in the world isn't going to help until they get this police military off the street. The police and city leaders need to do their part to help the community, too, and so far, they're failing.

 

Agreed!  The new law enforcement chief is a breath of fresh air -- the way all of this should have been handled in the first place. Keep that guy at the helm. 

Yeah. Killing unarmed black kids is kinda more ignorant and embarrassing though.

Looting - wrong! Duly noted! But I don't get the over-focus on the looting, as if that's indicative of the MAJORITY of folks. There will always be people taking advantage of chaos and unrest. Why anyone would give them any air time to suggest that they somehow represent the community is beyond me. I assume they don't represent the community, especially when far more people were peacefully protesting. This country needs to set the re-set button on how young black men are perceived (and if you are personally not part of the problem - then great! we need you on our team -- but someone is, and sometimes those someones are in positions of authority). The killing unarmed black kids (by police or so-called citizen vigilantes keeps coming up every couple of weeks by my count) -- surely, this is something worthy of deep, deep collective problem-solving if we have any humanity left in us.

[SadieMarie]

More work from the Ferguson PD; http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/the-day-ferguson-cops-were-caught-in-a-bloody-lie.html

[MrsMommy]

My husband spent some time in Ferguson this afternoon...here's his perspective on things.

[mommymilkies]

:(  What a disaster.  How in the world can they make amends for all of this?

[MrsMommy]

I'm not sure that they can. I think the best thing they can do is to make sure things are very, very different moving forward.

[SadieMarie]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/our-nations-unarmed-teens-are-they-armed,36705/

 

Anyone else remember when The Onion was just mostly funny?

[Slartibartfast]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/our-nations-unarmed-teens-are-they-armed,36705/

 

Anyone else remember when The Onion was just mostly funny?

They can really deliver a punch in the gut sometimes. It is usually funny but sometimes it is just painfully true.

[MrsMommy]

They've put a curfew in place for the foreseeable future. Curious to see how this new development plays out.

[mom31257]

Regardless of the truth of the killing, the truth now is that this town will never be the same. The protesting turned violent and into riots and looting will forever stain this community, probably causing it's demise. Businesses will flee, middle and upper income families will move away, leaving it a poor area which will most likely result in more crime and poverty. 

 

I think the old saying, two wrongs never make a right, is probably true here. Protests don't have to turn ugly. Justice can be served if we control our emotions and keep our anger in check. It's such a tragic situation. 

 

 

[MrsMommy]

Regardless of the truth of the killing, the truth now is that this town will never be the same. The protesting turned violent and into riots and looting will forever stain this community, probably causing it's demise. Businesses will flee, middle and upper income families will move away, leaving it a poor area which will most likely result in more crime and poverty. 

 

I think the old saying, two wrongs never make a right, is probably true here. Protests don't have to turn ugly. Justice can be served if we control our emotions and keep our anger in check. It's such a tragic situation. 

 

The worst part is that a good portion of the violence is coming from people WHO DON'T EVEN LIVE IN FERGUSON. Seven people were arrested the other night, and not one of them was a Ferguson resident. Seriously, it's like thug tourism...people come from other area of the country just to make trouble here because they can.

 

There are good community leaders who are trying to spread the message of peace. I choose to believe that in the end, they will be successful.

[weaver_67579]

http://www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/08/things-stop-distracted-black-person-gets-murdered-police/  This is an accurate article that might shed light to anyone who does not have expericance with the plight of the African American man (or woman) or of raising one in what is supposed to be a post civil rights world. It also explains the looting. 

 

I still think there is no excuse for rioting (not to be confused with peaceful protesting) and looting. I know plenty of folks that have nothing that wouldn't dream of looting or vandalizing. The .... well the looting isn't as bad as the kid being shot excuse is a bunch of bunk. I'll withhold judgement on the shooting till all of the facts are out and make a rational decision on what I think of that at the time, but the other stuff-wrong.

 

I also don't agree that the past of the person  being talked about has no place in the public discourse. I think if the officer was wrong he should be punished. However, how I feel about the deceased is ok to be influenced by what he has done in the past-including the probably robbery just before he was killed. The best predictor of current behavior is past behavior. I wouldn't be inviting him in to my home and it has nothing to do with his skin color. Making this thug out to be a poor teenager that was just waking around minding his own business also just doesn't feel right. That doesn't make his shooting ok-but please don't make him out to be some poor choir boy if he wasn't. Frankly, from what evidence I have seen/heard, he did play a part in his own death. Acting like a thug to a police officer is probably not in your best interest. Even if the officer was wrong to shoot in the manner he did-the kid is still dead due to his own stupid actions. He likely could have just gotten out of the road like the officer said and gone on his way, he could have not resisted arrest, he could not have run away... How about not robbing that store... all his bad choices. No bleeding hear here... Now the Amish girls-well that is a different story...

 

[MrsMommy]

I still think there is no excuse for rioting (not to be confused with peaceful protesting) and looting. I know plenty of folks that have nothing that wouldn't dream of looting or vandalizing. The .... well the looting isn't as bad as the kid being shot excuse is a bunch of bunk. I'll withhold judgement on the shooting till all of the facts are out and make a rational decision on what I think of that at the time, but the other stuff-wrong.

 

I also don't agree that the past of the person  being talked about has no place in the public discourse. I think if the officer was wrong he should be punished. However, how I feel about the deceased is ok to be influenced by what he has done in the past-including the probably robbery just before he was killed. The best predictor of current behavior is past behavior. I wouldn't be inviting him in to my home and it has nothing to do with his skin color. Making this thug out to be a poor teenager that was just waking around minding his own business also just doesn't feel right. That doesn't make his shooting ok-but please don't make him out to be some poor choir boy if he wasn't. Frankly, from what evidence I have seen/heard, he did play a part in his own death. Acting like a thug to a police officer is probably not in your best interest. Even if the officer was wrong to shoot in the manner he did-the kid is still dead due to his own stupid actions. He likely could have just gotten out of the road like the officer said and gone on his way, he could have not resisted arrest, he could not have run away... How about not robbing that store... all his bad choices. No bleeding hear here... Now the Amish girls-well that is a different story...

 

 

But the facts about his past don't indicate he was a thug. He had no prior convictions. Furthermore, last time I checked, he wasn't charged with that robbery. The store owners weren't interested in calling the police or pressing charges. There is even some speculation that he wasn't participating in a robbery, and did indeed throw cash down on the counter, but shoved the guy away because he didn't want to show his ID for the purchase. This is character assassination of someone who was murdered, pure and simple.

 

Mike Brown is dead because of the stupid actions of a cop. He didn't deserve to die, and he didn't ask for it. Surrendering to police doesn't mean you should get shot. And even if he did make a bad choice (robbing the store, but again no proof of that), HE DIDN'T DESERVE TO DIE FOR IT, AND HE DIDN'T ASK FOR IT.

[Sunshine72]

But the facts about his past don't indicate he was a thug. He had no prior convictions. Furthermore, last time I checked, he wasn't charged with that robbery. The store owners weren't interested in calling the police or pressing charges. There is even some speculation that he wasn't participating in a robbery, and did indeed throw cash down on the counter, but shoved the guy away because he didn't want to show his ID for the purchase. This is character assassination of someone who was murdered, pure and simple.

 

Mike Brown is dead because of the stupid actions of a cop. He didn't deserve to die, and he didn't ask for it. Surrendering to police doesn't mean you should get shot. And even if he did make a bad choice (robbing the store, but again no proof of that), HE DIDN'T DESERVE TO DIE FOR IT, AND HE DIDN'T ASK FOR IT.

I am willing to wait to make judgements until the investigation is completed. The officer has not been charged with a crime at this time and you have already convicted him of murder. IMO that is just as harmful as people labeling Michael Brown a thug before all the facts come out. As difficult as it is in a world where we are used to getting immediate results we need to learn to be patient and wait for the actual facts of the case. Until then I have focused on praying for the family of Michael Brown, all of our first responders and the community at large.

[MrsMommy]

I am willing to wait to make judgements until the investigation is completed. The officer has not been charged with a crime at this time and you have already convicted him of murder. IMO that is just as harmful as people labeling Michael Brown a thug before all the facts come out. As difficult as it is in a world where we are used to getting immediate results we need to learn to be patient and wait for the actual facts of the case. Until then I have focused on praying for the family of Michael Brown, all of our first responders and the community at large.

 

You bet I've made a judgement. A police officer should know better than to use a weapon so casually, especially in a neighborhood where children are routinely out and about. I think the autopsy shows that he was either a poor shot, or lacking judgement with the use of appropriate force. We are lucky someone else didn't get hit when he was spraying bullets around. The people that claim to serve and protect should be held to a higher standard, and they should be willing to do so. And I don't mean in a court of law, I mean in the same way that we expect parents to behave better than their children, because they are authority figures. There is enough evidence out there to show that he used excessive force, if not outright murder. And the result of that isn't just character assassination...it's the death of a young man who had his whole future ahead of him. So, yes, I'm going to judge him, especially since there is no question that he was the shooter and that he did, in fact, kill someone.

[weaver_67579]

But the facts about his past don't indicate he was a thug. He had no prior convictions. Furthermore, last time I checked, he wasn't charged with that robbery. The store owners weren't interested in calling the police or pressing charges. There is even some speculation that he wasn't participating in a robbery, and did indeed throw cash down on the counter, but shoved the guy away because he didn't want to show his ID for the purchase. This is character assassination of someone who was murdered, pure and simple.

 

Mike Brown is dead because of the stupid actions of a cop. He didn't deserve to die, and he didn't ask for it. Surrendering to police doesn't mean you should get shot. And even if he did make a bad choice (robbing the store, but again no proof of that), HE DIDN'T DESERVE TO DIE FOR IT, AND HE DIDN'T ASK FOR IT.

 

Do dead people routinely get charged with robbery? What would the point of that be? Could the store owner not call the police because they were afraid they would come back and do worse? or after the shooting hit the news fear for their own lives? I thought I saw news that that very store was looted-possibly as retribution for the video being released... I watched the video of the possible robbery and saw no money thrown on the counter. You would think that would be all over the media. I heard zippo as to that information from any news source today. I am willing to wait and see evidence of that as far as the robbery is concerned. In my book-shoving a store clerk for doing their job by wanting to see ID to sell tobacco would make you a thug. That is video evidence-not speculation. Even if he didn't steal it-he acted like a thug. I would be mortified if any of my children did that. My mother works as a clerk at a quick shop and has to routinely ask for ID. If someone treated my Mom like that- I would consider them a thug. Even if he was wrongly shot-that does not take away his actions in the store. They are separate events, but the store actions sure show someone I would not want to be around, would not want around my family and sure wouldn't want in the store bugging my Mom. As I said before, the best prediction of future behavior is past behavior... I doubt that was the first time he acted like a bully at the least-and possibly as a criminal.

 

I did hear some news coverage about the shooting today-both online and on TV. All accounts I heard said he scuffled with police, and was not compliant with reasonable things-like get out of the street... He fought with the officer. Even his buddy said that. That is not wise. The way some make it sound, he was just walking down the sidewalk and raised his hands. He mouthed off, resisted, scuffled with the officer, ... Should that have ended with him shot dead-probably not. But to say he made no poor decisions contributing to his own death is ridiculous. What is irritating me about the whole coverage and such is that it is poor black unarmed teen is shot by white officer... That is not the whole story. Hearing teen leads you to think of a kid. He was 19. He was a Man-not a kid. My friend's son was in the army at 19-he's a man and acts like one. Michael did not act in a manner that I would be proud of if it were my children. I would not mouth off to an officer, wrestle with them and resist or try to flee. Hence-I would probably not be shot. I am not saying he deserved it or that the officer was right. I am saying that I am getting tired of the portrayal of him as some poor kid who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time with no involvement in his own downfall. He obviously wasn't making good choices and because of them he wound up dead. It is entirely possible the officer made bad choices too. The possiblility of the officer's choices being worse than the Michael's choices doesn't negate the bad choices of the Michael guy or change the fact that Michael was a partner in his own downfall. Like I said. I'm waiting to see what the investigation shakes out as far as the officer goes. It doesn't look good, but you would think there would be dash video/audio so I'll wait to see on that. The store video is pretty telling as to character of the shooting victim though... and not in a good way.

[MrsMommy]

Do dead people routinely get charged with robbery? What would the point of that be? Could the store owner not call the police because they were afraid they would come back and do worse? or after the shooting hit the news fear for their own lives? I thought I saw news that that very store was looted-possibly as retribution for the video being released... I watched the video of the possible robbery and saw no money thrown on the counter. You would think that would be all over the media. I heard zippo as to that information from any news source today. I am willing to wait and see evidence of that as far as the robbery is concerned. In my book-shoving a store clerk for doing their job by wanting to see ID to sell tobacco would make you a thug. That is video evidence-not speculation. Even if he didn't steal it-he acted like a thug. I would be mortified if any of my children did that. My mother works as a clerk at a quick shop and has to routinely ask for ID. If someone treated my Mom like that- I would consider them a thug. Even if he was wrongly shot-that does not take away his actions in the store. They are separate events, but the store actions sure show someone I would not want to be around, would not want around my family and sure wouldn't want in the store bugging my Mom. As I said before, the best prediction of future behavior is past behavior... I doubt that was the first time he acted like a bully at the least-and possibly as a criminal.

 

I did hear some news coverage about the shooting today-both online and on TV. All accounts I heard said he scuffled with police, and was not compliant with reasonable things-like get out of the street... He fought with the officer. Even his buddy said that. That is not wise. The way some make it sound, he was just walking down the sidewalk and raised his hands. He mouthed off, resisted, scuffled with the officer, ... Should that have ended with him shot dead-probably not. But to say he made no poor decisions contributing to his own death is ridiculous. What is irritating me about the whole coverage and such is that it is poor black unarmed teen is shot by white officer... That is not the whole story. Hearing teen leads you to think of a kid. He was 19. He was a Man-not a kid. My friend's son was in the army at 19-he's a man and acts like one. Michael did not act in a manner that I would be proud of if it were my children. I would not mouth off to an officer, wrestle with them and resist or try to flee. Hence-I would probably not be shot. I am not saying he deserved it or that the officer was right. I am saying that I am getting tired of the portrayal of him as some poor kid who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time with no involvement in his own downfall. He obviously wasn't making good choices and because of them he wound up dead. It is entirely possible the officer made bad choices too. The possiblility of the officer's choices being worse than the Michael's choices doesn't negate the bad choices of the Michael guy or change the fact that Michael was a partner in his own downfall. Like I said. I'm waiting to see what the investigation shakes out as far as the officer goes. It doesn't look good, but you would think there would be dash video/audio so I'll wait to see on that. The store video is pretty telling as to character of the shooting victim though... and not in a good way.

 

I don't even know where to start in responding you. Of course he can't be charged with robbery now. But the store owners have said that BEFORE HE WAS KILLED they were not planning on taking action. It was (apparently) a shopper that called the police. The store owners weren't interested in pressing charges even while he was still alive. Also, the police took the video from the store before they had a warrant, and it looks like the sole purpose for that was to start defaming Mike Brown because of all of the other information coming out. And just because some opportunistic criminals (most of whom are NOT EVEN FROM FERGUSON) looted the store doesn't have a thing to do with Brown or what he did or where he was. That's just people being assholes. And you can't see money thrown down in the video because you can't actually see the counter and what's happening there, which is why as far as evidence goes, the video is crap. No one will ever know, unless the store owner or cashier specifically comes out and answers the question, which I highly doubt at this point.

 

I'm not saying he should have shoved the guy, but one bad decision doesn't make him a thug. His record was clean. Teachers who have known him his whole life spoke highly of him. Was he perfect? Of course not. Are you? I know I'm not. But he hardly had a track record as a thug.

 

We don't know what kind of scuffle there might have been. Most of the witnesses are saying the officer manhandled Brown, and that he was trying to get away. And as for not getting out of the street...well, if you knew the neighborhood, you'd know that people do that. They walk in the street. Constantly. It wasn't strange that he was in the street, and it wasn't strange that he would not want to get on the sidewalk. In my own neighborhood, people routinely walk in the street...don't they do that where you're from? And nobody around here has ever gotten taken to task for it. An 18-year-old is a very, very young adult. In a lot of ways, still a kid. Just because a 19-year-old you know was mature enough to be in the army doesn't mean everyone is. Just because he was legally an adult doesn't mean he wasn't still very, very young, and still learning.

 

And if you grew up in a town known for police brutality toward people JUST LIKE YOU I think your interactions of the police would be very, very different. We don't know if he "mouthed off," we don't even know if he scuffled. It does appear that he was trying to get away, which makes sense given that he knew other young black men had been illegally arrested and beaten in his town. Wouldn't you want to run away from that?

 

I don't know why you're trying so hard to vilify Brown...I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt. Ever hear that old phrase, "do not speak ill of the dead?" He can't defend himself, so it seems pretty crappy to be playing judge and jury when you don't have the details. I thought people on this forum were big on not blaming the victim This young man was NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DEATH. He is not at fault, and HE DID NOT DESERVE THE TREATMENT HE RECEIVED.

[Slartibartfast]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0

 

 

Autopsy shows that Brown was shot six times twice in the head. One of the shots to the head was into the "top" of his head.

 

 

[MrsMommy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0

 

 

Autopsy shows that Brown was shot six times twice in the head. One of the shots to the head was into the "top" of his head.

 

Which explains my renewed anger today...I can't even begin to wrap my brain around that, and to be honest, I don't want to, and hope I'm never able to.

[Slartibartfast]

Which explains my renewed anger today...I can't even begin to wrap my brain around that, and to be honest, I don't want to, and hope I'm never able to.

 

It is certainly very disturbing.

[IHaveNoIdeawhatIAmDoing]

Edited: Never mind.  Nope. No part of me thinks that this is going to end well or be productive.

[Word Nerd]

He mouthed off, resisted, scuffled with the officer, ... Should that have ended with him shot dead-probably not. 

 

Probably not?!? 

[poppy]

I was on vacation in Paris when Katrina hit. I'll never forget sitting in the park seeing Parisians all around me reading newspapers about how badly  America handles situations with its poor and its minorities.

 

I was camping when this the shooting and riots happened too. Recently got back. It's like a flashback.  Everyone around the world is watching, and shaking their heads.  Even Ayatollah Khamenei is tweeting about it.

 

It's not that I care what the rest of the world thinks- more that it's showing me just how true some of those negative perceptions are.  The shooting was awful.  The aftermath is shameful. The only good I can see coming out of it is increased awareness of how divided and oppressive the atmosphere is in some parts of our country.

[idnib]

nm

[ChocolateReignRemix]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0

 

 

Autopsy shows that Brown was shot six times twice in the head. One of the shots to the head was into the "top" of his head.

 

Which by itself doesn't tell us anything.

 

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,†he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.â€

 

If the officer's claim (not sure what it is yet) is that he was being charged by someone 6'4" and 290 lbs, this bit of the autopsy isn't particularly useful.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

I don't know why you're trying so hard to vilify Brown...I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt. Ever hear that old phrase, "do not speak ill of the dead?" He can't defend himself, so it seems pretty crappy to be playing judge and jury when you don't have the details. I thought people on this forum were big on not blaming the victim This young man was NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DEATH. He is not at fault, and HE DID NOT DESERVE THE TREATMENT HE RECEIVED.

 

In fairness, as the investigation is ongoing and we don't know all of the evidence available, then you cannot say the bolded with any degree of certainty.  If Mr. Brown did assault an officer, grab for his gun or charged him when the officer pursued, then yes, he would bear the responsibility for his own death and the officer would have been defending himself.

He may also bear only partial responsibility, or he may bear absolutely none.

 

I certainly agree that at the macro level we have serious inequalities in the justice system and how certain communities are policed, however at the micro level we cannot assume that only the officer is at fault or that Mr. Brown is a victim until the investigation is complete.