Just a Vent: I don't understand how students get to AP lit and can't write a thesis?

[Jenny in Florida]

I just worked with another of these students. She wasn't the first this month, and she isn't likely to be the last. In fact, I wouldn't bet against her not being the last one this week. 

 

It's not that they don't know how to write a thesis for a particular essay. It's that they seem baffled by the idea that they even need a thesis at all. And they haven't a clue what a solid thesis looks like. When attempting to write a thesis for an essay about a classic modern novel that mentioned the author's name and three of the major themes in the book, my most recent student responded with four separate sentences that essentially defined the concepts. I tried for nearly 40 minutes to get the student to "condense" those ideas into a single sentence that defined some kind of relationship among them, but she seemed utterly incapable of even understanding what I was suggesting.

 

I simply don't get it. Why push or even allow students who clearly aren't capable of advanced work to take these courses? Why does AP even mean anything if this is allowed?

 

And before you tell me that these students don't pass, I know for a fact that's not the case. I work with students who come into sessions telling me about the AP exams and courses they've already taken who are no better at this. And I see it among my son's friends. One friend of his whom I love dearly takes and passes multiple APs every year and cannot write his way out of a paper bag.

 

What is the point?

[sewingmama]

I can understand. I got to University without knowing how and I was an A student all my life. I don't remember it ever being taught. I got to Uni after getting A's for everything I'd ever written and failed my first assignment. I didn't even know you were supposed to reference your work or even how to do it.

 

Anyway... I went over to the Uni bookstore and grabbed a copy of their style manual and taught myself. I did much better on the next assignment.

 

I remember dissecting a lot of books in high school English...I don't remember anyone directly teaching how to write a thesis. It's one of the main reasons I am homeschooling....university writing has nothing to do with high school writing.

 

My DH is an English teacher...I've read a bunch of high school essays over the years and they are awful. They are lucky if they can get opening paragraph, body and conclusion right. My DH tried to teach them how to write a thesis ( this was grade 11 and 12) but they complained to their parents he was giving them advanced work and he was told to stop...this was a private school so what the parents say goes. He basically gave up and spent his time teaching them how a conclusion is different from the body of the text. And he was told to mark them up in their assignments. He had to find ANYTHING that even resembled the correct format and count it as correct...no matter how badly it was written or spelled or punctuated. Personally he would have failed them all but the school wouldn't let him.

[InterestingCase]

I teach college level writing, and it is not really necessary to have one sentence that presents the three key points of discussion as well as the thesis (three is a minimum for analysis, but not the end point). I know that there are varying thoughts on this, but most college level instructors would see this practice as limiting development of thought. In thorough analysis, the methodology statement or preview of points is often separate from the thesis statement. However, if you are asking them to do this, they should be able to once they have written through their thoughts and arrived at a thesis in need of support and defense.

 

Edit: Paper length does play a part, of course.

[Jenny in Florida]

I teach college level writing, and it is not really necessary to have one sentence that presents the three key points of discussion as well as the thesis (three is a minimum for analysis, but not the end point). I know that there are varying thoughts on this, but most college level instructors would see this practice as limiting development of thought. In thorough analysis, the methodology statement or preview of points is often separate from the thesis statement. However, if you are asking them to do this, they should be able to once they have written through their thoughts and arrived at a thesis in need of support and defense.

 

I'm not talking about a single sentence that covers all the points (and I didn't say three, by the way). I'm talking about a sentence that defines the argument of the essay. I understand that the introduction contains other material leading up to the thesis.

 

I'm talking about students who literally ask "What's that?" when I prompt for a thesis. There are more students than I can count who think a thesis is a general statement of what the essay is about. ("This essay is about William Shakespeare and his plays.") I've worked with large numbers of students who don't understand that their essays should cover the main ideas in their thesis statements in the same order as the one in which they are mentioned in the thesis. They don't get that a thesis should say something they have to support or defend.

 

I'm talking about students who receive instructions from their teachers in their AP lit classes that include diagrams that show where a thesis statement is supposed to go in their opening paragraphs and log on for a tutoring session because they don't understand what it means. 

 

Edited to add: I would say the single most common question I get in my essay writing sessions is "How should I start this essay?" When I ask what the essay is about, I get responses like the Shakespeare example above. When I ask what the thesis is so I can help brainstorm opening sentences with them, I get silence and confusion.

 

While I understand and agree that a typical five paragraph essay with three main points is not the be-all and end-all of academic writing, wouldn't you think--since the vast majority of assignments I see coming in with my tutoring students require that or some variation of it--that students who are in the last year or two of high school and possibly taking supposedly college-level courses would have an understanding of the basic procedure?

 

And yet, many, many of them simply don't.

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm not sure if you're looking for any kind of feedback as to what you can do or just want to vent, but if you are open to ideas (which may or may not apply) I'd say just have low expectations and come prepared with sample work so the students have something to look at for comparison. Maybe you already do this. Having someone try to explain something to me for 40 min. that I do not understand or struggle to deliver on would obviously be frustrating to both parties.

 

This is on-demand, subject tutoring, mostly homework help. When I log in to work, I don't know who will be connected with me or what they will need to work on during our session. I do keep a list of resources to share with students, but I have no way of knowing what a given student will need.

 

I should also say that we looked at the question from a variety of different angles during that time. I wasn't like I spent 40 minutes harassing the student to get it right. I provided help, made suggestions, asked questions, encouraged the student to break it up into smaller tasks, etc. 

[Jenny in Florida]

Jenny, I have this problem with my tutoring students (11th and 12th grade). It's very depressing. I struggle with them to write a pretty basic essay on, say, Hamlet. They are missing the ability to synthesise. And these kids aren't stupid - they are definitely at least average intelligence. I blame school English.

 

I can't decide whether it's nice to know I'm not alone or depressing to know the problem is widespread.

 

It seems like high school English classes, at least, are just schizophrenic in terms of expectations. Tonight, I had a student who had to compare and contrast two excerpts from Plato's Symposium (a different student from the one in my first post) who had no clue how to even begin to approach the assignment. I had to talk the student through the process of looking at the two sections to choose things that were the same, then things that were different and then explain how to craft a thesis statement based on that information.

 

The readings and sometimes the sheer volume of material they are supposed to read are daunting, but they aren't being taught the basics of how to write or even think about what they are reading.

[Guest]

I am commenting here just to get a star by the post so I will remember to write up my MIST ILLUMINATING (ha) rant tomorrow.

[Guest]

MOST. NOT MIST. Le sigh.

[InterestingCase]

I was basing my comment as to the number three in your statement " . . . and three of the major themes in the book . . ." I am sorry if I misunderstood its application. A five paragraph essay is a tool, but it is also one that limits many students as they attempt to move forward at the college level if they invest too much faith in it. I have the reverse problem: high school honor students that struggle to move beyond five paragraphs and think I am being "mean" when I point to the limits of  critical thought and analysis in their essays. Sometimes, I find it easier to work with students who are less informed as to these structures and more open to writing through an issue and discovering their perspective through the writing process. I do not think that you teach students wrongly, but I am just explaining my reaction.

 

This being said, yes you need a thesis and you must offer a clear statement as to the scope and method of your work. I also agree that many high school and college students need to revisit sentence and paragraph structure in order to write a successful essay.

 

 

 

 

[Heidi]

I can understand. I got to University without knowing how and I was an A student all my life. I don't remember it ever being taught. I got to Uni after getting A's for everything I'd ever written and failed my first assignment. I didn't even know you were supposed to reference your work or even how to do it.

 

Anyway... I went over to the Uni bookstore and grabbed a copy of their style manual and taught myself. I did much better on the next assignment.

 

I remember dissecting a lot of books in high school English...I don't remember anyone directly teaching how to write a thesis. It's one of the main reasons I am homeschooling....university writing has nothing to do with high school writing.

 

 

 

Me too!  I was in AP lit.  I don't recall writing any papers.  I do know I only read one book because the teacher would go over the test answers right before the test, so there was no point in reading the books.  I did not take an AP exam.  Never wrote a paper until college.  I'm still learning how to write a good thesis, but apparently that's not really important in college either, at least the ones I've attended.

[blondeviolin]

I went to public school in two different states. In the first, we learned these things in 9th grade. I move the summer before 11th grade and was appalled to those things had not bee taught. My AP US History teacher paused our history content for two weeks to work on essay outlines and thesis statements because the class could not comprehend. Boggles my mind...

[Joyofsixreboot]

Truthfully, I got to my master's before ever hearing I needed a thesis. It just isn't taught.

[bettyandbob]

One of the basic problems I have with AP courses in general is very little writing is needed to pass many AP exams. The result is huge variation in how much emphasis individual AP teachers put on writing. A student can obtain passing (3,4) scores on AP exams while still writing poorly. It's a big disservice for students because they think they are capable of college level work. Perhaps passing an AP means the student is capable of reading and memorizing content in college level material, just not analyzing and communicating analysis about the college level content.

 

Many years ago, public schools restricted access to AP. Some schools had to stop because the selected students were heavily skewed racially. But one thing I remember happening was there were students who were locked out courses because no teacher would recommend them, who would spend a school and prep on their own. Then those student would take the exam and get high scores. Those students started go public to complain about access policies and schools began to make AP classes open to anyone who wanted them. Various media sources (Time, Newsweek, newspapers) covered this topic in the late 80s and 90s.

 

Today, if you look at course offerings in some schools, standard level courses don't even require reading an entire novel or writing more than a paragraph at a time. So, taking AP courses provides more of a challenge, but I don't believe passing AP courses means the student is capable of the kind of work expected to pass a course on the same topic in college.

[Momof3littles]

I recall my husband TAing in graduate school and having chem students (not first yr, these were 2nd and 3rd year students in his course) who simply wouldn't write a discussion section for their lab reports.  They just wouldn't bother with it.  Chem majors.  I found that disturbing, TBH.  I told him I thought that should automatically mean a D or failure.  When he went to the woman who supervised all undergraduate labs, he was told he couldn't give lower than a B on any lab report ever, pretty much.  This was at a "public ivy."

What made him frustrated was these students were doing this over and over.  He offered up additional office hrs, let students know they could email, yet they just didn't bother.  If you are a (non first year) chem student and don't see the point of writing a discussion, something is wrong IMO.

 

As a student, I think I had difficulty understanding how to appropriately scale my thesis to the length of the paper, kwim?  I think sometimes even when students know what a thesis is, they try to write something broad and sweeping and then fit it all into a short little paper, vs. a more targeted thesis that fits better with a shorter length paper. 

 

I saw Shelagh Gallagher speak about Concept Development at a RFWP conference a few years ago.  WHen she went through the process with us, I thought it would be an interesting tool to teach students to come up with a more original thesis for a paper.

 

 

[Carrie12345]

I can't get my own kid to understand the concept of a thesis statement, and it's making me insane!!!  He thinks I'm mean and obnoxious about it b/c his teachers really don't seem to care, while I care a lot.

I've always assumed the difficulty stemmed from his Asperger's stuff, which it very well may, but I keep hearing that it's very widespread; that kids just aren't grasping the concept of taking a position, let alone communicating it.

[Momof3littles]

I can't get my own kid to understand the concept of a thesis statement, and it's making me insane!!!  He thinks I'm mean and obnoxious about it b/c his teachers really don't seem to care, while I care a lot.

I've always assumed the difficulty stemmed from his Asperger's stuff, which it very well may, but I keep hearing that it's very widespread; that kids just aren't grasping the concept of taking a position, let alone communicating it.

 

I have not used the S. Gallagher stuff with my own kids yet, but if I am remembering correctly she talked about working through it using post it notes.  I am rusty on details, but I recall thinking it was a good, visual, sort of hands on way of getting to something that could work as a thesis.  I wonder if something like that would help make it more concrete?

[ktgrok]

I recall my husband TAing in graduate school and having chem students (not first yr, these were 2nd and 3rd year students in his course) who simply wouldn't write a discussion section for their lab reports.  They just wouldn't bother with it.  Chem majors.  I found that disturbing, TBH.  I told him I thought that should automatically mean a D or failure.  When he went to the woman who supervised all undergraduate labs, he was told he couldn't give lower than a B on any lab report ever, pretty much.  This was at a "public ivy."

 

 

Man, i got C's on my chem reports and that was with me busting my butt! Everything was written up exactly as it was supposed to be, but if your final numbers were wrong, and they often were, my instructor not only took off for the results but also took off points on every section that I'd used those numbers in, rather than just grading the structure. Drove me nuts. That none of the TA's teaching my class spoke English was a whole nother issue...it seems it was the job of choice for international grad students. I'd ask an open ended question like, "how do you ....." and get a yes or no answer. So I think honestly, the numbers were the only part of the lab reports they really COULD grade. 

[Carrie12345]

I have not used the S. Gallagher stuff with my own kids yet, but if I am remembering correctly she talked about working through it using post it notes.  I am rusty on details, but I recall thinking it was a good, visual, sort of hands on way of getting to something that could work as a thesis.  I wonder if something like that would help make it more concrete?

 

Ya know, I bought the Concept Development book at the conference, but loaned it out.  Now I'm going to get antsy, lol.

 

Honestly, for ds, he's just not invested in learning anything he can get away with not knowing. It's infuriating (and why he's no longer homeschooled!)

[Laura Corin]

I think I'm coming up against a terminology problem here - American education tends to name techniques in more detail than does British education (for example, I didn't know what geometry was until well after I left school - it was all just 'maths').  

 

If I were writing an essay, the title of which was 'Compare and contrast the use of imagery in Ibsen and Strindberg', I would begin my introduction with a sentence stating that Strindberg's use was exploratory, giving space for the spectator to dream beyond the text, whereas Ibsen's was explanatory, teaching the spectator the views that Ibsen had already formulated.

 

Is that what you mean by a thesis?  You state how you will answer the essay question, based on your own analysis and opinion?  Or is it something else?

 

L

[*lifeoftheparty*]

I never learned this stuff either and I took all kinds of AP courses- and got all A's.

 

I wrote papers, got good grades on them- but I never really understood the process, or what I was doing.

 

Honestly, I am getting educated myself while sitting with DS in his CC Essentials class. And we went over The Lost Tools of Writing during practicum and I am all kinds of excited to use that in a few years! We watched some of the videos and went over an "ANI" chart to make an outline- and OH. MY. GOSH. It was the first time I ever truly understood how to structure a paper!!

 

I was so worried that my DS wouldn't be able to write a paper to save his life because I'm so bad at it- but now I'm confident he'll get proper training :)

 

Anyways, this was just a timely thread, that's all :)

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

I can't get my own kid to understand the concept of a thesis statement, and it's making me insane!!!  He thinks I'm mean and obnoxious about it b/c his teachers really don't seem to care, while I care a lot.

I've always assumed the difficulty stemmed from his Asperger's stuff, which it very well may, but I keep hearing that it's very widespread; that kids just aren't grasping the concept of taking a position, let alone communicating it.

 

May I recommend Format Writing by Jensen?  I used this book with my science/math-minded boys and it broke down the process of thesis writing and had the student practice writing a thesis before it moved on to actually writing a paper.  

 

I use Format Writing as a reference tool now that my boys are in public high school.  BTW, my oldest took an Honors English class and the teacher was against using any format and suggested that "good papers just had  a flow."  He ditched the process we had gone over from FM in 8th grade a tried the "flow method" and produced terrible papers.  

 

Then he took a regular English class (10th) and the teacher broke down the process (very similar to FW) and had the students practice thesis by helping them narrow their focus. In the end, the papers he wrote in the regular class were much better than he wrote in the honor's class.  His confidence soared as well.

[kiwik]

I think I'm coming up against a terminology problem here - American education tends to name techniques in more detail than does British education (for example, I didn't know what geometry was until well after I left school - it was all just 'maths').

 

If I were writing an essay, the title of which was 'Compare and contrast the use of imagery in Ibsen and Strindberg', I would begin my introduction with a sentence stating that Strindberg's use was exploratory, giving space for the spectator to dream beyond the text, whereas Ibsen's was explanatory, teaching the spectator the views that Ibsen had already formulated.

 

Is that what you mean by a thesis? You state how you will answer the essay question, based on your own analysis and opinion? Or is it something else?

 

L

Me too. To me a thesis is what you write to get your masters ot a PhD.

 

Luckily for me the first year I was at University I was required to do a course in writing for scientists. It included writing research essays, opinion pieces and a bunch of stuff I don't remember. It was only compulsory for the degree I was enrolled in (which I changed at the end of the year) but it was very worthwhile and it woukd have been helpful if everyone took it.

[Cosmos]

I think I'm coming up against a terminology problem here - American education tends to name techniques in more detail than does British education (for example, I didn't know what geometry was until well after I left school - it was all just 'maths').  

 

If I were writing an essay, the title of which was 'Compare and contrast the use of imagery in Ibsen and Strindberg', I would begin my introduction with a sentence stating that Strindberg's use was exploratory, giving space for the spectator to dream beyond the text, whereas Ibsen's was explanatory, teaching the spectator the views that Ibsen had already formulated.

 

Is that what you mean by a thesis?  You state how you will answer the essay question, based on your own analysis and opinion?  Or is it something else?

 

L

 

Yes, that would be the thesis. Often, however, an essay is written not in response to a specific question but a general assignment, i.e. "Write an essay about The Great Gatsby". So the student not only has to answer the essay question but choose for himself a suitable, narrowed question to ask. (And that, I think, is where many students really struggle, especially without explicit instruction on what kinds of questions to ask.)  Is that different from British schools?

[skimomma]

I recall my husband TAing in graduate school and having chem students (not first yr, these were 2nd and 3rd year students in his course) who simply wouldn't write a discussion section for their lab reports.  They just wouldn't bother with it.  Chem majors.  I found that disturbing, TBH.  I told him I thought that should automatically mean a D or failure.  When he went to the woman who supervised all undergraduate labs, he was told he couldn't give lower than a B on any lab report ever, pretty much.  This was at a "public ivy."

What made him frustrated was these students were doing this over and over.  He offered up additional office hrs, let students know they could email, yet they just didn't bother.  If you are a (non first year) chem student and don't see the point of writing a discussion, something is wrong IMO.

 

As a student, I think I had difficulty understanding how to appropriately scale my thesis to the length of the paper, kwim?  I think sometimes even when students know what a thesis is, they try to write something broad and sweeping and then fit it all into a short little paper, vs. a more targeted thesis that fits better with a shorter length paper. 

 

I saw Shelagh Gallagher speak about Concept Development at a RFWP conference a few years ago.  WHen she went through the process with us, I thought it would be an interesting tool to teach students to come up with a more original thesis for a paper.

 

I never learned this stuff in high school either.  However, I did not take AP anything.  It was getting smacked around on my university science lab reports that taught me how to write.  They were more than happy to give me Ds and Fs on my lab reports until I figured out how to include all of the necessary components.  I now teach engineering classes at a university and have sadly found myself devoting half of a class period to explaining what an executive statement (the equivalent of a thesis in technical writing) is and why it needs to be part of their reports to me.  Luckily, most of my students figure it out after a few examples and threats to take 10% off their report if they neglect to include it.

[Laura Corin]

Yes, that would be the thesis. Often, however, an essay is written not in response to a specific question but a general assignment, i.e. "Write an essay about The Great Gatsby". So the student not only has to answer the essay question but choose for himself a suitable, narrowed question to ask. (And that, I think, is where many students really struggle, especially without explicit instruction on what kinds of questions to ask.)  Is that different from British schools?

 

Questions like that do come up, but it's not the standard type.  Normally you would get something more specific.  In some ways this is easier, because the structure is set up for you.  In other ways it is harder: you might know a work really well, but not have thought through in advance this particular aspect, so you have to be able to think pretty fast to come up with relevant material and a thesis:

 

Edited: possible copyright issue

 

L

[hjffkj]

Man its sad to hear high schoolers are not being taught writing. My highschool covered it thoroughly all 4 years. I imagine an AP lit student should know it going in and maybe History, assuming papers are written in ap history class. But I can see not needing those skills for AP calc or AP biology and probably others.

[Kalmia]

I never learned this stuff either and I took all kinds of AP courses- and got all A's.

 

I wrote papers, got good grades on them- but I never really understood the process, or what I was doing.

 

Honestly, I am getting educated myself while sitting with DS in his CC Essentials class. And we went over The Lost Tools of Writing during practicum and I am all kinds of excited to use that in a few years! We watched some of the videos and went over an "ANI" chart to make an outline- and OH. MY. GOSH. It was the first time I ever truly understood how to structure a paper!!

 

I was so worried that my DS wouldn't be able to write a paper to save his life because I'm so bad at it- but now I'm confident he'll get proper training :)

 

Anyways, this was just a timely thread, that's all :)

 

I am seconding this post heartily! The only curriculum in my doorframe-high stack of writing materials that clearly explains the construction of a thesis statement for a persuasive essay is The Lost Tools of Writing. In order to successfully use the program which is laid out in a slightly confusing manner, the teacher must invest a good bit of time beforehand listening to all the CDs and DVDs and going over each lesson prior to it being taught. Despite this small flaw, the focus of the Invention stage of this program is worth the cost of the entire thing. It is one of the few programs that clearly explains the creation of a thesis statement that can be defended and that deftly guides the kids to really think deeply about the topics they write about.

 

http://www.circeinstitute.org/lost-tools-writing

 

eta: There is considerable Christian content in the CDs especially the first one.

[Cosmos]

 

Questions like that do come up, but it's not the standard type.  Normally you would get something more specific.  In some ways this is easier, because the structure is set up for you.  In other ways it is harder: you might know a work really well, but not have thought through in advance this particular aspect, so you have to be able to think pretty fast to come up with relevant material and a thesis:

 

 

It sounds like you are speaking about exam questions. I think specific questions would be the norm here too for exams.

 

Since the OP is tutoring a student, it's probably a paper assigned as a homework assignment for which the student has several days or weeks to work on it. That's the kind of assignment I was referring to.

[Laura Corin]

It sounds like you are speaking about exam questions. I think specific questions would be the norm here too for exams.

 

Since the OP is tutoring a student, it's probably a paper assigned as a homework assignment for which the student has several days or weeks to work on it. That's the kind of assignment I was referring to.

 

I think that our coursework assignments tend to be specific too.

 

The only one I have heard of that was deliberately not, was the 4,000 word extended essay that Calvin wrote as part of his IB course - for that he had to choose the works and formulate the topic.

 

L

[Crimson Wife]

Thesis writing and and using the evidence to support one's argument are hard things to learn. DD can do it using IEW/WWS style assignments where she rewrites based off of an outline. But ask her to come up with her own original thesis and it is very difficult for her to do.

 

I'm planning on having her work through "They Say, I Say: The Moves that Matter in Academic Writing" followed by "A Workbook for Arguments"  this year in hopes of strengthening her ability to write theses.

[Garga]

Ha! OP! So you think it's bad when an AP high schooler asks what a thesis is? Until just last week, I worked with a friend of mine who started a test prep company in NYC. She helps teachers to prepare for their certification test. She teaches general test prep skills and test essay writing skills. I cannot tell you how many of these people, about half of whom have MASTER'S DEGREES (yes, I'm shouting) ask her, "Um...what's a thesis?" when she is going over test essay writing skills.

 

She used to help them, but recently she said that if they ask her what is a thesis she stops helping them. She doesn't think they're fit to be teachers if they don't know that by now. Did I mention that some of them who ask her this HAVE MASTER'S DEGREES!?!?!? (Sorry. Shouting again.)

[MBM]

I simply don't get it. Why push or even allow students who clearly aren't capable of advanced work to take these courses? Why does AP even mean anything if this is allowed?

 

Schools are expected to treat all students equally, so many of them allow students to take any AP course or AP exam that interests them. As a result, classes are watered down so that all students can pass.

 

My son's high school does not do this, though. Tracks are determined by tests, teacher recommendations and parent recommendations. This process works surprisingly well in determining which courses best suit a student. If a student did not get into a particular class, though, that student may elect to move up only in one subject and only with a parent's permission; however, the student will be moved down if the teacher believes the student is floundering too much. One-half of my son's freshman honors English class -- 14 students -- were moved down to a lower level during the first few weeks of school. Most of them were placed in the class because a parent insisted they belonged there.

[hjffkj]

Ha! OP! So you think it's bad when an AP high schooler asks what a thesis is? Until just last week, I worked with a friend of mine who started a test prep company in NYC. She helps teachers to prepare for their certification test. She teaches general test prep skills and test essay writing skills. I cannot tell you how many of these people, about half of whom have MASTER'S DEGREES (yes, I'm shouting) ask her, "Um...what's a thesis?" when she is going over test essay writing skills.

 

She used to help them, but recently she said that if they ask her what is a thesis she stops helping them. She doesn't think they're fit to be teachers if they don't know that by now. Did I mention that some of them who ask her this HAVE MASTER'S DEGREES!?!?!? (Sorry. Shouting again.)

And sadly I bet they become teachers without that knowledge

[hjffkj]

Me too. To me a thesis is what you write to get your masters ot a PhD.

 

Luckily for me the first year I was at University I was required to do a course in writing for scientists. It included writing research essays, opinion pieces and a bunch of stuff I don't remember. It was only compulsory for the degree I was enrolled in (which I changed at the end of the year) but it was very worthwhile and it woukd have been helpful if everyone took it.

That type of thesis and knowledge of what a simple thesis statement is in a paper are 2 different things.

[Cosmos]

I think that our coursework assignments tend to be specific too.

 

The only one I have heard of that was deliberately not, was the 4,000 word extended essay that Calvin wrote as part of his IB course - for that he had to choose the works and formulate the topic.

 

L

 

I think this makes great sense. The student learns how to formulate a thesis statement by doing it many times answering questions carefully chosen by an experienced teacher. And the student will see quite obviously that the thesis must be the answer to an interesting question. That should eliminate thesis statements like Hamlet was written by William Shakespeare.

[Laura Corin]

That type of thesis and knowledge of what a simple thesis statement is in a paper are 2 different things.

 

I think that Kiwik was saying that the word 'thesis' was not used in New Zealand in the way it is being used generally in this thread, agreeing with my confusion, because I'd not seen it used in that way in the UK either.

 

L

[laughing lioness]

Dh teaches psych at the undergrad and grad level and he's had students tell him they've learned more about writing in his classes than anywhere else- he demands APA style because that's the standard and clearly stated in the syllabus. He's also been called  nasty names because he grades on APA style and has been told (at the grad level) that he is the ONLY prof who has ever expected it. It's a catch 22 because if the students don't like you and give you bad evals you are not asked back. 

[Luckymama]

My son's high school does not do this, though. Tracks are determined by tests, teacher recommendations and parent recommendations. This process works surprisingly well in determining which courses best suit a student. If a student did not get into a particular class, though, that student may elect to move up in only in one subject and only with a parent's permission; however, the student will be moved down if the teacher believes the student is floundering too much. One-half of my son's freshman honors English class -- 14 students -- were moved down to a lower level during the first few weeks of school. Most of them were placed in the class because a parent insisted they belonged there.

That's how it worked at the two high schools my older two attended. Students were properly prepared for AP and higher classes.

[Laura Corin]

I think this makes great sense. The student learns how to formulate a thesis statement by doing it many times answering questions carefully chosen by an experienced teacher. And the student will see quite obviously that the thesis must be the answer to an interesting question. That should eliminate thesis statements like Hamlet was written by William Shakespeare.

 

I think you are on to something there: if you were to ask any 18yo in the UK who had done A level literature to come up with a question and argue it, then years and years of following models would give them a lot of background in spewing them out....  It's not hard because one has worked with them so much.  I could spin a question/thesis on pretty much any book.....

 

L

[Crimson Wife]

Hm.  All my profs used APA.  You get yourself an APA manual, and you look stuff up.  It's really not rocket science. 

 

Many (most?) colleges have a writing center if a student needs help. I used to take my papers over if there was some comment/feedback that I didn't understand.

[Joanne]

I teach college level writing, and it is not really necessary to have one sentence that presents the three key points of discussion as well as the thesis (three is a minimum for analysis, but not the end point). I know that there are varying thoughts on this, but most college level instructors would see this practice as limiting development of thought. In thorough analysis, the methodology statement or preview of points is often separate from the thesis statement. However, if you are asking them to do this, they should be able to once they have written through their thoughts and arrived at a thesis in need of support and defense.

 

Edit: Paper length does play a part, of course.

 

I have a bit of professional background, too.

 

And I absolutely, firmly believe that each student needs to master the standard 5 paragraph essay with a 3 component thesis statement placed predictably at the end of the introductory paragraph. And I mean *master* it. Many people will never be sophisticated enough writers to move beyond that. I think being "creative" and "non standard" comes after foundational concepts, not before.

 

The standard thesis and 5 paragraph *still* informs and organizes my writing

 

OP, I taught a college success course at a community college for a year. I had 4 sets of 26 students during that year, and a total of 4 of them knew what a thesis statement was. Many didn't know how to organize a paragraph. I literally had to teach the "sandwich technique" to adults.

 

I learned my own writing skills in AP English, in particular from one teacher. But that was the 80's, and maybe things were different?

 

WRT a poster above, I am an administrator in a private school and what you describe is NOT our culture, academically, at all.

[Matryoshka]

My son's high school does not do this, though. Tracks are determined by tests, teacher recommendations and parent recommendations. This process works surprisingly well in determining which courses best suit a student. If a student did not get into a particular class, though, that student may elect to move up only in one subject and only with a parent's permission; however, the student will be moved down if the teacher believes the student is floundering too much. One-half of my son's freshman honors English class -- 14 students -- were moved down to a lower level during the first few weeks of school. Most of them were placed in the class because a parent insisted they belonged there.

 

At my dd's school it's even tougher.  They do not want kids in classes they can't handle, but they get so many requests to move up in spite of test scores and teacher recommendations that if there is a request to move up, they can't move back down, even if it means ruining their GPA with bad grades.  I guess they think this will give a disincentive to ask.  I think it's quite punitive, though.

[Joanne]

Hm.  All my profs used APA.  You get yourself an APA manual, and you look stuff up.  It's really not rocket science. 

 

Purdue OWL is your friend. ;)

 

The problem, in part, is that current youth have a very casual relationship with plagiarism. Alarmingly so.

[Crimson Wife]

Maybe they used MLA before.

 

 

Probably, but if the syllabus states APA, then the student shouldn't be upset at being marked down for using the incorrect style. I found it annoying that different courses used different styles, but it isn't hard to check which one the professor wants.

[Matryoshka]

Dh teaches psych at the undergrad and grad level and he's had students tell him they've learned more about writing in his classes than anywhere else- he demands APA style because that's the standard and clearly stated in the syllabus. He's also been called  nasty names because he grades on APA style and has been told (at the grad level) that he is the ONLY prof who has ever expected it. It's a catch 22 because if the students don't like you and give you bad evals you are not asked back. 

 

Have to say I hate both MLA and APA and long for endnotes and bibliographies.  But they're really not hard to learn at all, and one is quite similar to the other with small style differences, so yeah, look it up.

[Matryoshka]

Purdue OWL is your friend. ;)

 

The problem, in part, is that current youth have a very casual relationship with plagiarism. Alarmingly so.

 

Aren't most schools requiring the use of tools like Turn-it-in.com?  All of dds' papers at school have to be submitted through there to check for plagiarism.

 

[Joanne]

Dh teaches psych at the undergrad and grad level and he's had students tell him they've learned more about writing in his classes than anywhere else- he demands APA style because that's the standard and clearly stated in the syllabus. He's also been called  nasty names because he grades on APA style and has been told (at the grad level) that he is the ONLY prof who has ever expected it. It's a catch 22 because if the students don't like you and give you bad evals you are not asked back. 

 

That is bizarre. APA would be *expected* for Psych because it is science.

 

I stand in support of your DH on this one.

[Joanne]

Aren't most schools requiring the use of tools like Turn-it-in.com?  All of dds' papers at school have to be submitted through there to check for plagiarism.

 

 

Turnitin catches quotes, but much plagiarism is done when students integrate ideas that were not their own with their own writing without giving credit to the *idea* originator.

 

 

[Joanne]

I agree, but I was commenting on the "he is the ONLY prof who has ever expected it" part. I didn't know if they meant expected ALA or expected a format, period. If they meant only prof that expected APA then I'm assuming their other teachers asked for MLA and they were balking due to that.

 

 

Eh. When I was in grad school, the counseling side demanded APA and the theology side Turabian. We had to take theology courses. If you can't "deal" with the standards, I don't think that you should be in grad school.

[MBM]

At my dd's school it's even tougher.  They do not want kids in classes they can't handle, but they get so many requests to move up in spite of test scores and teacher recommendations that if there is a request to move up, they can't move back down, even if it means ruining their GPA with bad grades.  I guess they think this will give a disincentive to ask.  I think it's quite punitive, though.

 

That's a rigid policy and one that could lead to students fearing challenging themselves. I can understand that the school wants to minimize class changes but ultimately the policy could lead to mediocrity. Why attempt something difficult if you fear you might be punished? At our high school some of the kids whose parents move them up do well, so even though they didn't test well or get a teacher recommendation, they made the right choice. (They are only allowed to move up in one class, too.) The goal of our high school is to set the bar just high enough that the student can get over with appropriate effort. They don't punish the students for trying.