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I'm not sure if I've ever posted here before.   :)  My daughter is accelerated in some areas, and not so much in others...hence the 2e.   :)  Because of that, I don't really feel I fit over here. Still, this question fits better here than on the regular forum, thought it might sort of fit on the learning challenges board too.

 

I just feel like crying today, so I'm going to let it all out. Run fast if you need to, I totally understand. If you have a 2e child, or experience with one, I could really use some advice or just reassurance.

 

It's only our 4th day of school this term, so I know some things will get better as we find our groove, but the things that are...problems?...are things we experienced last year too, only that as her workload and challenge level increases, so do our...issues?

 

Last year we had testing done (WISC IV and WJ III) so we could figure out some of the quirks I saw in my daughters learning. It was expensive, as I'm sure some of you know, but worth every single penny and then some. I wanted to believe she wasn't TRYING to drive me crazy intentionally, but without some sort of proof, I was just getting more and more frustrated.  DD9 started 1st grade in Singapore 1 and quickly worked through 2 and 3 that first year before Easter. When the first BA book came out we grabbed it right away, hoping for some challenge to really get her thinking. She was bored and increasingly frustrated by the monotony of Singapore math. BA was a breath of fresh air and saved her love of math. Here's my problem: Z scored in the 97% for Applied Problems and 82% for Quantitative Concepts. This is good, and pretty consistent with what I've seen at home.  Her Math fluency, after 4 years of math fact practice (K-3) was...31%. Her overall processing speed is 27%. Even when she knows a math fact, it takes her a looooooonnnnnggggg time to retrieve it.  So now she is in 4th grade and the work is getting harder. I'm not even sure she finds the work more difficult, but after the summer off, her math facts are gone again (we seem to learn them and forget them, learn them and forget them....) Math is taking forever and a day. Today she spent a half an hour doing three problems. The muttering I heard was, "I can't remember what 6X3 is!!!!" She never complained that the work was too hard or that she didn't understand. She even miscalculated 4+3 twice. So the teaching part of math took us about a half an hour and the 3 problems she finished in half an hour (one of which was wrong because of calculation error) = 1 hr of math. She's got other work to do. I don't want to have her working alllllllll day, but I do have a certain amount of work I need her to accomplish. I don't feel like I ask a lot because I know she grasps concepts quickly. It's skill areas where she really suffers and slows way down. Spelling, math and language mechanics are our biggest issues and math is arguable her best subject. I can't sit beside her all day and nag her along, I have another child to teach. Besides, nagging wouldn't help and would probably make her feel bad too.  Did I mention that the psychologist said she saw some things that indicated ADHD inattentive type? OMG. I know this is a long description of our problem. Is there anyone else out there who is dealing with a 2e student and feels downtrodden or has some advice on what I can do to help this super sweet, sensitive little girl?

 

Teresa

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I, too, have been here.

 

1. Take it easy emotionally on yourself tonight.

2. Read this book: The Right Side of Normal by Cindy Gaddis (www.therightsideofnormal.com). You can begin by reading the articles on her website. Your daughter has a whole different learning style (ADD issue melds with this too), but once you learn the strengths of it (great conceptual understanding, learns a topic deeply in a short, incredibly focused time period [often self-initiated, but must be of interest to the child in any case] and much more), it helps to adjust to the weaknesses (math fact memorization/ recall). I am still in progress with my "gifted yet right-brained learner (RBL)" DS 10, so I can't give any guarantees, but I'd just let her use a fact table for now. Apparently the memorization will come, but for now you may kill her special RBL math talent (conceptual, seeing & understanding patterns deeply, etc.) by having the head butts over them. God knows we've been there, and nothing positive came of it. Speaking for myself, that book, and understanding how differently these kids learn was a godsend. Best wishes.

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Oh my, I feel your pain!  Been there and done that, and somehow we both, child and mother, have lived to tell the tale.  Wine and chocolate, and for a while Tae Kwon Do classes, are how I survived. 

 

My 2e kid had the exact same struggles.  Math concepts were a piece of cake but the nuts and bolts -- the calculations and writing of steps, were his downfall.  We did everything -- multiplication songs, flashcards and computer games to drill the facts, letting him use a calculator, having a multiplication chart where he was sitting, having me scribe while he told me the steps to take, using every single manipulative out there.  Fractions were a hurdle, algebra a nightmare. He will still count on his fingers to this day!!

 

Spelling was a nightmare, too, though Sequential Spelling helped with that, as did patience on my part.  He naturally improved as a speller throughout his teen years.  His handwriting is still awkward with random capitalized letters in the middle of words, and lots of nouns capitalized. But he learned to type when he was 7 and turned into a very good writer.  Typing his assignments on the computer simply allowed him to get the words out quickly.  I had him typing narrations by the time he was 9 or 10.  

 

We didn't try ADHD meds til he was 11 or so.  Maybe 12.  I almost cried that first day he took them because the improvement in his focus was stunning, his ability to do multi-step problems.  I felt so awful that I had let him struggle for so long.  In high school he commented that algebra was actually fun when he took his ADHD meds.  He struggled through college without meds and is now, as a working adult, trying to find the right meds to take when he needs it.  

 

I don't know what I'd recommend to someone else dealing with a similar situation. But I can tell you a little more of how we did things and you can decide if any of it sounds like it is worth trying.  I let my ds use the calculator because it allowed him to move ahead with concepts.  I felt like making him do everything by hand was a punishment for his disability.  He actually had formal accommodations as a teen to use a calculator on standardized tests, although he never took any of the ACT or SAT type exams.

 

I never used workbooks other than for math. (Math-U-See until algebra has fabulously uncluttered workbooks.)  I never, ever, expected him to copy a problem from a book onto notebook paper then solve it.  Just was not going to happen.  I also used a big white board, even for algebra, and wrote out one problem at a time for him.  For science, history and language arts it was reading, watching some documentaries, writing and exploring.  He learned grammar through editing his writing and through games.  His vocabulary was naturally good from all the reading.

 

Sitting on exercise balls instead of chairs helped enormously when he needed to focus on one task or another.  Keeping the computer on a breakfast bar also helped because he could pace around, then write a sentence or two while standing up, then pace some more.  Timers helped, too.  I'd give him 20 or 30 minutes for math and when the timer pinged he was done.  Allowing him to pursue his passionate interests in depth helped, too.  I found all sorts of ways to weave his interests into math, science and history, and I let him be creative with his assignments.  

 

And I worried, pushed harder sometimes, backed too far off other times.  But he is so very grateful for how I homeschooled him, and is a wonderful, gainfully employed, young man.  I guess the lesson is to give yourself permission to be very non-traditional in how you school.  To know that you are not ruining your dd long term just because you let her use a calculator, or have a multiplication chart next to her for math.  These 2e kids have all sorts of tools for coping with their challenges, and we certainly should give them and teach them how to use other tools to keep the learning alive and not a tedium.

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Oh my, I feel your pain!  Been there and done that, and somehow we both, child and mother, have lived to tell the tale.  Wine and chocolate, and for a while Tae Kwon Do classes, are how I survived. 

 

My 2e kid had the exact same struggles.  Math concepts were a piece of cake but the nuts and bolts -- the calculations and writing of steps, were his downfall.  We did everything -- multiplication songs, flashcards and computer games to drill the facts, letting him use a calculator, having a multiplication chart where he was sitting, having me scribe while he told me the steps to take, using every single manipulative out there.  Fractions were a hurdle, algebra a nightmare. He will still count on his fingers to this day!!

 

Spelling was a nightmare, too, though Sequential Spelling helped with that, as did patience on my part.  He naturally improved as a speller throughout his teen years.  His handwriting is still awkward with random capitalized letters in the middle of words, and lots of nouns capitalized. But he learned to type when he was 7 and turned into a very good writer.  Typing his assignments on the computer simply allowed him to get the words out quickly.  I had him typing narrations by the time he was 9 or 10.  We started Sequential Spelling last year and already I can tell a big difference. She's learning to type and I'm hoping she takes off with it. I'm trying not to push because right now its her idea which makes it fun instead of my idea which makes it work.   :001_rolleyes: She does still randomly capitalize things, though this is slowly improving. Letter reversals! Never did I think she would still have letter reversals at age 9. It's especially awkward when she writes her name on something that's public (signs a card, writes a note, etc.) and the Z is backwards. It's the first letter of your name and it's backwards?   :confused1: 

 

We didn't try ADHD meds til he was 11 or so.  Maybe 12.  I almost cried that first day he took them because the improvement in his focus was stunning, his ability to do multi-step problems.  I felt so awful that I had let him struggle for so long.  In high school he commented that algebra was actually fun when he took his ADHD meds.  He struggled through college without meds and is now, as a working adult, trying to find the right meds to take when he needs it.  I'm not sure what we're going to do about this right now. This is one of those subjects where I knew more before I had kids.  LOL  One of my biggest concerns is weight loss. Isn't that common? She's 9 and hasn't hit 50 lbs. yet. She can't afford to lose ANY weight. I wish this part were simple.

 

I don't know what I'd recommend to someone else dealing with a similar situation. But I can tell you a little more of how we did things and you can decide if any of it sounds like it is worth trying.  I let my ds use the calculator because it allowed him to move ahead with concepts.  I felt like making him do everything by hand was a punishment for his disability.  He actually had formal accommodations as a teen to use a calculator on standardized tests, although he never took any of the ACT or SAT type exams.  I'm trying to be at peace with this. It's surely not the end of the world to have support in this area. Certainly it would be worse to hold someone back from advanced concepts because they had memory and processing speed problems. Wouldn't it? 

 

I never used workbooks other than for math. (Math-U-See until algebra has fabulously uncluttered workbooks.)  I never, ever, expected him to copy a problem from a book onto notebook paper then solve it.  Just was not going to happen.  I also used a big white board, even for algebra, and wrote out one problem at a time for him.  For science, history and language arts it was reading, watching some documentaries, writing and exploring.  He learned grammar through editing his writing and through games.  His vocabulary was naturally good from all the reading. Copying math problems out of the text onto a piece of paper is definitely a problem. It's like she can't hold the information in her memory long enough to get it down on paper. We saw this happening today. I'm lucky that she likes watching science and history documentaries. She has an incredible memory for that sort of thing. It's random memorized facts that fall through the cracks. 

 

Sitting on exercise balls instead of chairs helped enormously when he needed to focus on one task or another.  Keeping the computer on a breakfast bar also helped because he could pace around, then write a sentence or two while standing up, then pace some more.  Timers helped, too.  I'd give him 20 or 30 minutes for math and when the timer pinged he was done.  Allowing him to pursue his passionate interests in depth helped, too.  I found all sorts of ways to weave his interests into math, science and history, and I let him be creative with his assignments.  

 

And I worried, pushed harder sometimes, backed too far off other times.  But he is so very grateful for how I homeschooled him, and is a wonderful, gainfully employed, young man.  I guess the lesson is to give yourself permission to be very non-traditional in how you school.  To know that you are not ruining your dd long term just because you let her use a calculator, or have a multiplication chart next to her for math.  These 2e kids have all sorts of tools for coping with their challenges, and we certainly should give them and teach them how to use other tools to keep the learning alive and not a tedium.

 

Thank you. You've given me lots to think about.

 

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I so feel your pain. DS is one of those "easy is hard, and hard is easy" kids when it comes to math. I run separate math tracks for drill and conceptual teaching. I also alternate days between Beast Academy (which he loves) and Singapore (which he tolerates) or Math Mammoth (which he hates but I know he needs it sometimes).

 

My little one is going to be starting short-duration stimulant medication for ADHD, and depending on how she responds to it, I may try it for DS as well. It works for 4 hours and then wears off. I will be giving it to her right after breakfast and then it should wear off by the time she comes home from kindergarten (she is not HSed) at noon. The goal is to give her a few hours of focus to get her through her school day. DS was diagnosed with ADHD at 6 but has never taken medication for it. If the short duration stimulant works for youngest DD, I am seriously tempted to try it with DS to help during seatwork time.

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I second trying the coffee. On the days that I just can't handle my youngest anymore, I give him coffee and things get much more focused. It's my way of using a stimulant to settle him without testing and putting him on ADHD meds yet.

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Coffee (lots of milk, little coffee, but my kids are tiny) has been amazing. Similarly, a good earl gray with cream. DH was appalled until he experienced the difference.

 

I do a lot of scaffolding. Mine like intellectual challenges but frustrated by the computation/spelling challenges that trip them up.

 

Sometimes, we do "challenge math," where they're focused on the critical thinking concepts and not computation. Charts and tables are allowed during these sessions. I help fill in answers when we talk through problems. Setting up the problem and understanding the concepts is the focus. 

 

Sometimes we do "drill math," where they drill. Boring, but it helps. I find warming up with drill helps prime their brains with facts, but not always. We use worksheets, flash cards, online drills, wrap-ups. It's never fun. It does help.

 

Similarly with writing, Is our goal to think critically? I forgive a LOT of spelling/grammar/handwriting issues. Is our goal output-based, like a letter? Then spelling/etc matters.

 

It was very helpful for me to reframe my goals and expectations, especially regarding math facts. My kids liked challenges and have a natural intuition for mathematical reasoning, but were exhausted by computing, computing, computing.

 

My kiddos are still small, so I'm learning these waters. 

 

 

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I haven't read the other responses, so this might have already been mentioned.  Give that girl a multiplication table and an addition table.  They will keep her on track when doing the problems so that she's not getting lost due to retrieval difficulties.  And seeing the tables every day will help her eventually learn the facts.

 

My middle dd has slow processing speed.  Besides using tables, we worked with the triangle flash cards so she could see all 3 parts of the equation on the same side of the card; from flash cards to oral, and then to writing. 

 

Try not to worry about the future.  My daughter went to a college prep high school and kept an A/B average.  She is going to a private liberal arts college this fall with a Dean's scholarship and a scholarship from a private foundation.  I have some angst about sending her off to college, but she's going to be fine.

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We started this morning with tea and cream (we had a poetry tea, so sweet) but now that you mention it, she was much more focused for math this morning. I'm sure it didn't hurt that I gave her a multiplication chart. She was cheerful and did her work in a reasonable amount of time. It was fabulous!

 

It's nice to hear success stories. Sometimes I can't imagine where this journey is taking us. I hope it's leading her to college, she wants to be a chemist (like dad) and I just don't want math to be the sticking point.  :(  That would be sad. That said, I never took a chemistry class where I didn't have access to my handy dandy calculator. I guess she'll just wear the buttons out if she needs to.

 

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Shutterbug, thanks for sharing. That looks really interesting, and I'd love to hear how it works when you get started. I have maxed out my HS purchases for the time being, but would love to put it on my wish list if it works well. As always when the times facts are involved, "May the force be with you". ;) 

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Be warned that it's extremely common for dyslexia to masquerade as ADHD-PI, (particularly in light of the struggle with facts, the spelling, irregular writing mechanics…)  It's not at all unusual that kids will have an ADHD dx and really they're just dyslexic….probably the biggest reason I've never pushed for diagnosis/meds for my kid, actually.

That said, we have good luck with coffee, also.  

 

I also allow the crutches of calculator, multiplication chart, etc.  

 

 

Buck struggled all the way through about 7th grade, but by 8th started to come into his own.  HIs reading level had finally caught up to the writing most commonly encountered in texts and NF writing (as well, he seems to have developed the trick of reading for context clues) so his comprehension scores shot WAY up.   His spelling and language skills are still appalling but he's starting to master spell-check and is typing fairly comfortably.  And of course math has gotten to the point where calculation is secondary to the new concepts.

 

He still has a lot of trouble managing the passage of time, so I have a timer going all day, ringing at 15 minute intervals.  Wherever he's at, he colors in a dot in his assignment book showing what he's working on at that exact moment.  And yep, we have a lot of space for "Nothing."  

No judgements, just that if it gets to the end of the day, and he still hasn't finished ________, he can't tell me he didn't have time.  We can look at his tracker and see exactly where his day went.  

 

Better than that, I can ensure that at least every 15 minutes he'll get brought back to earth for a bit.   ;)

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I don't think it's dyslexia. She's was an early reader and is still advanced for her age. She has very good comprehension. I have thought about using a timer. I would use it just to give her a sense of time passing, I think she might find it helpful that way. I like your idea about having him track where his time went. She does have an assignment sheet, and while she likes being able to check things off as she does them, I sometimes wonder if she finds the list overwhelming, even though a lot of the tasks only take about 5 to 10 min of focused time. Focus is the problem though, right.

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read about this recently on a blog for helping a child that struggles w/ memorizing math facts, decided to order it. Found the best price on Hewitt Homeschooling. Maybe some others that have used it can chime in w/ what they think.

 

https://www.hewitthomeschooling.com/Materials/mItem.aspx?id=1717

This looks very interesting. Let me know what you think after you've had a chance to look it over. I feel like I have tried everything for fact memorization. I'm really starting to think they just can't stick. I know she's as frustrated with her inability to remember them as I am. It's certainly not purposeful.

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Just chiming in to say that there are many different forms of dyslexia and also dyscalculia that seems like it could be the real underlying problem.  I know you mentioned you had extensive testing done, but I would see an educational psychologist to have her tested specifically for dyscalculia.  http://www.ncld.org/types-learning-disabilities/dyscalculia/what-is-dyscalculia

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I recommend making the list shorter, even if it takes more time for each task to be completed. My son groans when he sees what he considers to be a too-long list. Or have a master daily work checklist that simply lists the subjects to be covered that day/ session. Then have a (again, short) checklist for each subject, that you *only* bring out when doing that subject.

 

I don't think it's dyslexia. She's was an early reader and is still advanced for her age. She has very good comprehension. I have thought about using a timer. I would use it just to give her a sense of time passing, I think she might find it helpful that way. I like your idea about having him track where his time went. She does have an assignment sheet, and while she likes being able to check things off as she does them, I sometimes wonder if she finds the list overwhelming, even though a lot of the tasks only take about 5 to 10 min of focused time. Focus is the problem though, right.

 

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This has been one of the most helpful threads I have ever read!!! My middle child fits the description of the kids mentioned here (she even still has random letter reversals at 10 years old...in *cursive*), so hearing methods for helping her learn without being hampered by her weak spots (handwriting, math fact recall, spelling) is incredibly helpful. I ordered The Right Side of Normal and I plan to read it next week before we start school the following week.

 

I knew that she was smart, I just had no idea how to tap into it since early elementary years focus on the skills that she struggles with. I am really hoping that the book will give me ideas that will make the coming school year easier and more fruitful. I do plan on letting her learn how to type (emailing grandparents is great for typing practice :D ) and after reviewing her skip counting songs - which do help with multiplication fact recall since she is very musically inclined - I will print out a multiplication chart for her to use while she is doing math. Her confidence is sliding downhill since she is starting her 5th grade year still in the 3rd grade MUS book...and her 2nd grade brother is about to start the same math book :sad: .

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Spelling, math and language mechanics are our biggest issues and math is arguable her best subject.

This, as well as this:

her math facts are gone again (we seem to learn them and forget them, learn them and forget them....) Math is taking forever and a day. Today she spent a half an hour doing three problems. The muttering I heard was, "I can't remember what 6X3 is!!!!" She never complained that the work was too hard or that she didn't understand. She even miscalculated 4+3 twice.

is what made me suggest dyslexia.  As Reader411 mentioned, there are different ways it presents, particularly for very bright kids/adults.  Just thought it worth noting.

 

 

My dad is probably dyslexic, but he has never had trouble with reading/comprehension because he was always able to decode quickly enough to get the bigger context.  However, encoding language--mechanics, spelling, etc. is still very difficult for him.  (He jokes that that's why he went into a profession that came with a secretary lol)  And numbers throw him, too…dates, math facts, etc.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

After a break, expect some fuzzy math weirdness. Gently review and use a math drill program with a 10-keypad for practice. Turn off any timer and have her practice 6-8-maybe 10 minutes in the morning. The math facts will return.

You are right. She has been practicing and they are coming back. She is probably more frustrated than I am now. She's said maybe we shouldn't take time off from math next summer. I think that's probably a good idea. I ordered apples and pears spelling and she tested into book 1 at lesson 31. She seems pleased at the idea of working through it. She is learning to type and for anyone who is interested, Keyboarding Without Tears has untimed exercises which is important for us. We are slowly getting back on track.

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