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1. He has spectrum-ish traits. 

2. He is turning 6 soon and cannot identify the number of sounds in a word.  He can finally hear the differences in vowels.  I assume he's dyslexic.

3. He has verbal apraxia, which results in all sorts of funky language processing things (word retrieval, etc.).

4. There could be a lot more the testing would turn up.

5. I've been *told* he's gifted. The testing his SLP has done is quite high on the things not pulled down by his apraxia.  We have no reason to think he's any less than bright per IQ, and it could be somewhat higher.

 

Options.

1. Neuropsychologist who specializes in dyslexia.

2. Neuropsychologist who specializes in dyslexia with an especial interest in pervasive developmental disorders.

3. Psychologist who specializes in 2E who admits upfront she WON'T be running any of the dyslexia tests that give a RAN/RAS.  She'll run some, but they won't give a RAN/RAS.  

 

Quandry.

Option 3 has reports twice as long as Options 1 and 2.  Option 3 however is not a neuropsych and isn't going to run as many tests, right?  How do you generate double the length of report off less information??

 

Questions.

At what age will a psych actually say something definitive or helpful about dyslexia?

Which do I want more for a newly 6 eval: data or the psych's written recommendations?

Is one of these practitioners likely to be more experienced at sifting through the subtleties of the apraxia plus quirks scenario?  Option 3 has done *2* apraxia kid evals.  I hope to call Option 2 tomorrow to see what his quantity is.

Can you just shoot me now?

 

Seriously, I WANT to get the evals, get some useful information, get some help.  I'm trying people.  But you pay an astonishing amount, only do it every few years, and you just sorta GAMBLE that when you plunk down that astonishing amount the person is going to say something useful.  I'm extremely concerned that one of two things could happen.  1) He could get a pat label of spectrum that isn't even accurate, or 2) The psych could do so little testing that they MISS the complexity and subtlety of what's going on and give me an idiotic NON-answer like "he's gifted" and walk away.  Neither would be helpful, because neither is descriptive or accurate.  I know all kids are unique, but he really is oddball and unique, even in the unique world.  Apraxia is not this run of the mill problem.  To sort out what's going on in his brain, it SEEMS TO ME like there needs to be more testing.  

 

But are we literally hitting a wall here, where it's just too early and they're NOT going to say anything definitive no matter WHO I go to???  

 

It just doesn't seem reasonable to me that when I've been trying for 3 YEARS to get basic phonemic awareness into him that I can't get SOME kind of answers and sorting out of this.  Something?  Anything?

 

And I'm TRYING not to be so anxious about this and just get on board with someone and feel good about it, but I'm really struggling.  

 

So what am I missing?  Any information you can plug in here to help me sort this out?

 

Thanks for the vent at least.

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No definitive answers but huge hugs....and I don't know what in the world you should do.  My kids weren't that young when we finally had evals.  With DD, I knew something was off by the time she was 4 but no clue what or what, if anything, I should do about it.  If I had had any of the knowledge I do now I guess I would have started seeking detailed evals at least by the age of 6, but I don't know who I would go to in your situation.

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OneStep, yes, it's so weird to be in this, feeling the toilet swirling around you and go JUST FLUSH AND GET IT OVER WITH!!!  And you can't get it to flush!!!

 

What's worse is, the list was even longer.  I had two other psych options and I eliminated them for a variety of options.  So my list *is* 40% shorter, honest.   :lol: 

 

I so wanted that longer report.  But it's a lot more hassle to go there, involves an overnight, and I just go back to this point of wondered if that option 3 with the longer report is running enough tests.  That's what I can't shake in my mind.  I just think he's more complex and needs more than a WISC and a couple screenings, kwim?  

 

I'm going to try to call option 2 tomorrow and see what I can find out.  The psychs are usually upfront with you when you ask what tests they'll be running, whether they've ever eval'd someone with that scenario, etc.

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Ugh. I would probably go with number 1 if I had to pick and visit a Neurodevelopmental Pediatrician if you still have any ASD/autism concerns. We got the same info from a Neurodevelopmental Ped as we did from the neuropsych as far as ASD evaluations. At 6, you want the data AND the suggestions so you can turn this around as fast as possible while the brain has the most plasticity. I'm so glad we got evals and ways to progress forward from our reports. I think the boys are much farther ahead because of the great info and identifications we got early.

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I don't know enough about things to offer helpful advice, but just :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: . And understanding about being confused about all of the choices and figuring out how to proceed. I've got a lot of experience with that, unfortunately.

 

I'm guessing that no matter which one you pick, you will gain more information than you already have. So maybe I'd go with one of the two that does not require an overnight trip for this first run at evaluations??? Would it be possible for you to ask his speech therapist for some advice about which kind of eval might be most helpful, since they have spend a good deal of time with your son? Not their area of expertise, but you never know what someone will have insight into, even if it is outside their usual scope.

 

That's all I've got. Except that while you mull it over, you should make yourself some more of that chocolate dessert you mentioned a couple of weeks ago. Chocolate always helps !! ;)

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I guess I'm wondering why you would consider 1 when 2 has the same expertise plus some pervasive developmental disorders expertise?  Not trying to be snarky at all. 

 

Two seems like a small number of apraxia evaluations.....I guess I would be leaning towards number 2, but that would vary based on how many apraxic evals he/ she has done and what they say about testing.  It might be possible to ask one that you know has dyslexia expertise if there is any reason why you would NOT do a RAN test? 

 

I would be unhappy if they did not do an ADOS, however, for the spectrum issues.

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Ugh. I would probably go with number 1 if I had to pick and visit a Neurodevelopmental Pediatrician if you still have any ASD/autism concerns. We got the same info from a Neurodevelopmental Ped as we did from the neuropsych as far as ASD evaluations. At 6, you want the data AND the suggestions so you can turn this around as fast as possible while the brain has the most plasticity. I'm so glad we got evals and ways to progress forward from our reports. I think the boys are much farther ahead because of the great info and identifications we got early.

Thanks, I hadn't thought through it that way.  You're right that some of my questions are developmental, and at some point it's a developmental ped that answers them.  Ds is never sick, but I take him to just a nice local ped every year very faithfully to discuss developmental stuff.  That doesn't mean the guy is getting everything or connecting all the dots the way a specialist would.  So you're right, that would be another way to get our answers, going dev. ped + neuropsych.  

 

Storygirl, your take is practical and I hadn't thought of it that way. I've talked with his SLP about it, but she doesn't have anyone she loves.  I think she thinks that things are overclinicalized.  The problem is, I HAVE TO TEACH HIM.  It's not enough to say "just do what he's ready for."  No child ever sits down and says YES, PLEASE DO 2 HOURS OF BARTON WITH ME A DAY and yet it seems horribly fundamentally important to me that we clear up whether this is a developmental delay or something needing intensive remediation.  It seems horribly important to me that we get it RIGHT and not guess or assume. And I don't know.  He can hear and distinguish vowel sounds now, which he couldn't do a month ago.  We've been swimming and doing gymnastics, not doing LIPS or anything actively at all.  

 

Terabith, yes, I think all of the options will do appropriate spectrum testing.  And yeah, that was what was getting me, that when I dug in and said what about this and this, the answer was do separate evals, one with the 2E specialist and some follow-up testing later with a dyslexia expert.

 

I'll call #2 tomorrow and see what I can learn.  #2 is an oddity and takes a while to get back to people.  I have no guarantee of when I'll get a response, lol.  It's sort of like calling up the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz.   :lol: 

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I'm always slow to respond to these threads, so you already have a number of great response. I hire a number of professionals all the time, though, and this is how I would assess the three you listed:

 

You want the person who has been around the block the most. The person who is most passionate about their job, and who likes the tough cases. Hands down, you want that person. Also, the person who gets that you're a homeschooler and that "sit him close to the front of the classroom" recommendations are worthless and annoying. 

 

You just *do not* want the person who will write you a longer report so the report will be long. As a professional, I can provide you with a 250 page document out of the leanest of information -- the vast majority of it may not be useful to you, though. It may include tons of background information about test origins or versioning. It may have inane observations about the variety of camo DS was decked out in. Or just a ton of white space to make it "easy to read." You don't want someone counting words merely for the word count.

 

Does #3 say why she isn't doing the RAN/RAS? Is it because she's concerned about the apraxia skewing it? Or she has some issue with it? Will she do other tests to sufficiently cover dyslexia concerns? I guess I'd probably bump #3 anyway, just because she's not a neuropsych. 

 

You also know that DS has apraxia, so you want someone who is familiar with apraxia and its flavors and nuances, and how it can impact testing. I would call #1 and #2 and get a sense of their knowledge of apraxia. If they are roughly equal, I'd go with the one who is good with tough cases and home schoolers. I was pretty upfront with the neuropsychs when I was calling around. I told them that if there was a recommendation for "sit him in front of the class" I wouldn't pay for the assessment. <I should probably not admit that, I'm thinking.> Remember that they work for you

 

It's rough. It really is.  :grouphug:

 

 

 

 

 

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Mommymomster, I think that's what's nagging me.  My concern seems to shift every 3-4 months as he matures.  Months ago, when I first found psych #3 and talked with them, I thought getting help with the spectrum-ish question and overall teaching approach would help.  Psych #3 doesn't run the couple dyslexia tests with RAN/RAS for kids under 7 because psych #3 (who is very well-regarded btw, a good psych) doesn't consider that said psych's specialty.  So that psych suggested eval at 6 for 2E question, overall help, then eval at 7 with a dyslexia expert psych for dyslexia-specific help.

 

My problem is my kid still can't hear that there are two distinct sounds in "at".   :svengo:  I don't see how I can wait around another year, twiddling my fingers, without any help on this.  

 

EVERYTHING has been harder with this child.  I'm not saying he's as hard as some people's kids, but man he's a challenge to work with. Swim lessons have taken WAY LONGER for him to progress than watching anybody else's kids. Like I've sat on the sides almost crying for 2 months now with little/no progress.  In the last 2 weeks he has started going under water consistently, and he's just starting to be willing to jump off the side.  He takes much longer to make progress than his age-mate peers.  I've had to adopt "embrace the pace" as my motto.  He's such a mess of contradictions.  Like last night, we decided to do some math.  (We'd been busy all day with other stuff and it was that or go to bed, lol.)  He keeps wanting to make the RonitBird dot patterns HIS way.  Thing is, his way is really insightful!!!  His ideas ALWAYS are.  Like he says no, I don't want to just add 1, can we add 2?  First do it their way and add 1, then we'll add 2.  Well adding 2 WAS the next lesson.  It was a very good leap from a bright child.  But then when he says no, I can form 7 lots of ways and I want to form it my way AND PROCEEDS TO FORM IT A VERY INTERESTING, THOUGHT PROVOKING WAY THAT REFLECTS A CONCEPT THEY'RE GOING TO COVER IN A LATER LESSON but sort of skips over entirely, either unwilling or unable to do it they way RB wanted, what do I do?!?!  I know what to do, be patient, let him explore things multiple ways, bone up, get math done more often so we can keep his work in RB on pace with where his brain is going.  His method was really curious btw.  He wanted to form 9 as 4 dots perimeter, 5 on the inside.  He wants to connect the 4 dots and the 3 dots of the 7 because he hates them separate.  But when you hit this wall when you are trying to work with him, it's like WHAT KIND OF MENTAL MULE DID I BIRTH?!?!

 

So you can see how it just seems to vary as to what seems most important from the psych, 2E advice or language processing.  But in reality it wouldn't take an extreme amount of perception from a qualified individual to sort out the spectrum question, and that's what we're really talking about.  I'm deeply concerned about what kind of answer I get if he *doesn't* fit the DSM adequately for a spectrum label.  At that point I'm left with gifted or maybe not even that, meaning I didn't really get a lot of help.

 

I think there's a conflict in the psych community between the geeks and the therapists.  That's what you're really saying, do I need a geek or a therapist psych?  I THOUGHT I wanted the therapist, the person who would sit us down and speak to his reality and how to handle him. (behavior, what is developmental) He's had some spurts in the last bit, and now I'm more in TELL ME WHAT TO DO FOR HIM mode. (interventions) And you can't tell what to do and where to intervene without the geek numbers.  You just can't, because he IS going to be contradictory and a mess.  

 

I'll try to call.  It's not socially appropriate to call at 1 am, so I was waiting, lol.  Who knows, maybe some miracle will occur and psych #2 will call me back today.  One time (when I was choosing psychs for dd) he never even returned my call, and another time he took a couple months.  Told you it's sorta like the Wizard of Oz, Great and Powerful but short-staffed. (sorry for the bad joke)  But when you really need to go home, you need a Wizard.  Just give me a Wizard of a psych, please.  

 

Hold it, the Wizard was just blowing hot air and told them what they already knew in their hearts.  Thanks, I can't win.  :svengo: 

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Thanks again, especially FairProspects and Mommymomster.  You gave me things to think about I hadn't thought of.  It's 8, so I'll go call and leave a message.

 

I'm back.  Called and left a message.  This will probably take a while to get a reply.  

 

Will not eat chocolate, will not eat chocolate.  Fruit smoothies, rah rah.  

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You described my DS at that age. NP was a waste of time. She did not account for his speech and language disorders.

Wow, can you tell me more about this?  Psych #1 was the one I used with dd, and he had offered to help interpret the tests the SLP has done.  As you say, psych #3 seemed much less confident at being able to bring anything to the table interpreting the SLP tests and combining it with what tests the psych would do to expand our understanding.  Psych #3 just said make sure the kid can talk, as if speech is merely a get it out of the way kind of issue.

 

I think what has shifted my understanding is the research I did this weekend into BrainGym, Neuronet, Balametrics/Bala-visx, etc.  Our SLP, out of the blue, started talking about an OT eval and how they would find subtle things that would carry over and help his speech.  I swear I ought to be a more profane woman, so I could express how shocking and frustrating this gets!  So I spend a full day (you know me, we're talking I forgot to eat, everything) learning all this, reading back posts on the board from years ago here.  Turns out there's some kind of connection I still don't really understand between DOMINANCE issues and WORD RETRIEVAL.  Thunk.  So the bodywork (balametrics, BG, metronome work the way I did it with dd using motion and speech and working memory and... anything) improves connections on both sides of the brain, improves the brain's decision on which side of the body will be dominant, makes the language side settle down and become more decided, which makes the words easier to retrieve.

 

In other words, the more testing I get through the psych that digs into what interventions I can do, the more I'll understand the things that are plaguing me. 

 

There are things I also can't resolve in my mind.  On the one hand, we need to intervene.  On the other hand, you can intervene and realize it was maybe timetable PLUS interventions.  I don't think it's timetable alone, nope.  But is it timetable PLUS interventions or just needing interventions?  I know that he now can discriminate vowels (all of them!) and he couldn't auditorally a month ago.  And we weren't working on it, only swimming and having a beautiful summer.  

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I'm sorry OhE.  

 

If option #2's office is nearby, I would be tempted to drive over and speak with him/her face to face or speak with the office manager and discover how to get feedback and possible appointment.  Be nice about it obviously.  

 

I almost wonder whether you should consider attending a 1-2 week O-G class.  Have you considered that?  

 

Your son is now able to distinguish vowel sounds.  That is HUGE.  Who cares whether he can count the number of sounds in a word?  I myself would be more interested in him being able to segment words into their sounds while clapping the correct number.  My DD learned to count syllables by saying words in a robot voice.  

 

Take no notice of the swim class and I realize that is hard.  The littles in P's class are taking a long time too.

 

As far as the RB stuff, he's subitizing and seeing the broader picture of what a number consists of.  Let him do the higher stuff and include the lower numbers.  Use his currency.  And eat dark chocolate because it lowers blood pressure.   :D

 

 

 

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Liz, you wrote: 'He is turning 6 soon and cannot identify the number of sounds in a word.  He can finally hear the differences in vowels.'

Where this statement is used to define a prosodic patterning difficulty, with the rhythmic patterns and metrical structure of speech.

You also wrote: ' my kid still can't hear that there are two distinct sounds in "at".'

 

Where the difficulty with this, is with percieving the 'rise time' in 'a' that has closure with 't'.

While  amplitude depth, rise time, duration, pitch and intensity are all parts of speech.

It is the 'rise time' of vowels that provide the rhythmic patterns of speech.

Though when this 'rise time' of vowels isn't percieved?

Then a word can't be concieved of as a 'metrical structure' or 'rhythmic pattern'.

Where this rhythmic patterning forms the prosodic patterning of words.

The rhythmic pattern provides the metrical structure to segmental phonology.

 

Though the 'swimming' was interesting, if the different types of swimming strokes are thought of in terms of 'metrical structures'?

As the arms push against the water, and then swing forward to make the next stroke.

 

Though I've been following the research by a Prof Usha Goswami for about 10 years, who has been leading research into this area.

Where she has found that teaching children to play simple drums, has been effective in developing an awareness of 'metrical structures'.

Which in turn, carried over into the development of 'phonemic awareness', in children and teenagers with Dyslexia.

 

But this is at the leading edge of research.  So that in regard to an evaluation by a psych?

You would need to teach the psych about this, as they probably know nothing about it?

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Will not eat chocolate, will not eat chocolate.  Fruit smoothies, rah rah.  

ROTFLOL!!! INDEED!! Stress eating will bite you in the butt under circumstances such as these (BTDT!!) SYMPATHY!

 

Okay, so after reading through the whole thread... I'll try not to repeat much that other people have already said.  

 

Of your three choices, I would probably opt for #2 - for the reason previously pointed out that #2 is #1+developmental.  If you give #2 the additional questions about experience with Apraxia and feedback, and find the answers pleasing, I think I'd chose this person as the most "highly qualified" to deal with your DS unique mix of issues.

 

Swimming talk, apraxia, incredible thinking that makes you go, "WOW! Where'd that come from when he can't even remember our dog's name--which we've had since before he was born," etc. is very much my DS.  Seriously, we had words like "kapano" for piano, windshiper for windshield wiper, lots of perseveration while speaking (I mean, I mean, I mean when are we going, going, going to dinner?), and a total lack of phonemic awareness.  DS also had significant social skills issues, had a lot of difficulty with learning to ride a bike, learning to swim, etc., but over time our work and remediation added up to good-to-great!

 

Our first eval was with a psychologist, second with a neuropsych through the Children's Hospital, and third by a highly qualified neuropsych (HQ-NP) that assessed kids on the spectrum regularly.  Our subsequent evals were done by our HQ-NP and we LOVE the job he does.  Having a HQ-NP who understands developmental issues will likely give you the most accurate separation of what is developmental versus what is neurological at the root--what will require giving it time versus what will require remedial work.  

 

Also, while your DS may seem like he has spectrum characteristics, he may also just have a variety of things going on that give an external appearance of the spectrum--the difference would be in whether the issues are distinct and can be addressed separately, as was the case for my DS--so he is not on the spectrum even if some people may have though so at times. (Does that make sense?)  

 

For example, DS' difficulty with social skills and eye-contact made it APPEAR as though he was on the spectrum, but Our HQ-NP determined the root cause of the social skills issues was a deficit in Executive Functioning.  With the EF deficit, he just didn't even pick up on the fact that there were social cues and social skills.  Thus, we were able to explicitly teach our son, "When you are talking to someone, it is common social practice to look them in the eye, but not for too long.  Look away and look back." .. Yes, we had to teach him that specifically, but once he knew what was expected, he could do it.. For a kid on the spectrum, being able to look someone in the eye not something they'll do just because they're told they should.. at least, not without a TON of therapy for it.

 

Our HQ-NP writes a LONG report, but as another poster pointed out--long is worthless if it isn't on target with what YOU need. I'd be concerned that writing a longer report based upon less data would consist of more general recommendations than specific ones geared directly to what your DS needs.  

 

For your specific questions:

 

At what age will a psych actually say something definitive or helpful about dyslexia?  -- Given that clinically diagnosed dyslexia involves issues with a lack of phonemic awareness, working memory deficits, and often processing speed deficits, your question to your evaluator might be "How accurately can you diagnose deficits in <these three areas> at the age of six?"  I do know a lot of evaluative instruments have a lower-end age of 8 or 9, but don't know what evaluators have in their arsenal to use at younger ages, nor do I know how accurate those earlier instruments might be.  I have been TOLD dyslexia can be accurately identified at age 5 or 6 based upon the above three hallmark deficits, but I am not a NP and I don't play one on TV. ;-)

 

Which do I want more for a newly 6 eval: data or the psych's written recommendations?  I would want DATA because that will give you the most accurate reflection of what kinds of issues your DS is facing.  Of course, that is me with my experience and instructional design background--I can take the data and usually figure out the biggest keys for teaching the child.  For many people though, the written recommendations are most helpful for knowing WHAT to do.  Even so, if you have the diagnoses and data, you can research what to do, if that makes sense. ;-)

 

Is one of these practitioners likely to be more experienced at sifting through the subtleties of the apraxia plus quirks scenario?  Option 3 has done *2* apraxia kid evals.  I hope to call Option 2 tomorrow to see what his quantity is. - Experience evaluating kids is not quite the same thing as knowing whether the person did a GOOD job of evaluating the kids.  It does attest to an ability to work with the kids, but not to the qualification to do so.  I would think your #2 option would be the most qualified, whether that person has done a lot of those types of evals or not.  However, I would ask up front if the evaluator felt he could gain valid evaluation results when working with a kid who has apraxia, and if not, who would he recommend as a specialist for conducting a NP evaluation for a child with apraxia.  There is definitely a need for the ability to carefully seek to UNDERSTAND the child and to make sure the evaluation accurately reflects the child rather than making any guesses based upon what the evaluator thinks the child is saying.. KWIM?

 

Can you just shoot me now? - NO! LOL! I know how frustrating, scary, concerning, the whole gamut of emotions about what's going to become of this kid can be.  However, both you and your DS will grow in ways you will not believe through your working together!! You'll know so much MORE and have such a great appreciation for this unique package that is your little boy when you are down the road about a decade.  I can't tell you how proud I am of my DS!! He started his new job yesterday after graduating from College.. and to think there was that day when our school admin barked at us, "HE is NOT college material!! YOU just need to LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS!!"  Thank heaven God led me on the path he did, he guided me along the homeschooling road to all of the best/right people, and the outcome of our journey often seems like a fairy tale as it is!!  HANG IN THERE!!! And, I send my hugs..MANY of them.  

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Here is my very limited piece of advice to add to what I said before. When first reading through your choices, my first thought was that #2 sounded like the best choice, but I have no expertise to back that up. As I'm reading other people recommend #2, though, I find myself nodding my head.

 

About swimming -- all four of my kids spent multiple times going through the preschool and level 1 swimming classes. I'm talking a couple of years of me watching them  in those classes and thinking they would never swim. Then they passed through levels 2 and 3, up to level 4, where they swim laps, pretty quickly, with only one or two times through each level. So they eventually caught on. It was frustrating (and expensive for all those lessons), but eventually it clicked. So don't give up!

 

ETA -- I was so uncertain about their abilities that we didn't join a local pool until a couple of years ago. And this is the first year that I would let them swim in the deep end (except for oldest). And then last Saturday they went to a pool party at a different pool and all of them jumped off the 12 foot high dive multiple times!!!  Amazing!!! (And I think they are crazy to do that!)

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I'm sorry OhE.  

 

If option #2's office is nearby, I would be tempted to drive over and speak with him/her face to face or speak with the office manager and discover how to get feedback and possible appointment.  Be nice about it obviously.  

 

I almost wonder whether you should consider attending a 1-2 week O-G class.  Have you considered that?  

 

Your son is now able to distinguish vowel sounds.  That is HUGE.  Who cares whether he can count the number of sounds in a word?  I myself would be more interested in him being able to segment words into their sounds while clapping the correct number.  My DD learned to count syllables by saying words in a robot voice.  

 

Take no notice of the swim class and I realize that is hard.  The littles in P's class are taking a long time too.

 

As far as the RB stuff, he's subitizing and seeing the broader picture of what a number consists of.  Let him do the higher stuff and include the lower numbers.  Use his currency.  And eat dark chocolate because it lowers blood pressure.   :D

Oh Heather, you're so good and enabling to me!  :D  My blood pressure runs on the low side of normal anyway.  Eat too much of that dark chocolate, and I'd keel over!  But you're right, I'm getting a little stressed.  Chocolate chip cookies sound really good right now. Dd would definitely enable on that, haha. Maybe a nice indulgent dessert or dinner out?  Oh, I'm getting my massage today!!  That will help.  

 

So you're asking if he can hear syllables?  Yes, I think so.  We haven't done it in a while, but he can hear syllables I think.  He's just definitely not hearing the component sounds in any fashion.  This has always been rough for him, whether it's hearing initial consonants, rhyming, whatever.  But you're right, hoping he'd hear and count the distinct sounds is rather ambitious if he isn't even hearing parts of words consistently.  

 

I REALLY like your suggestion to go to OG training.  That had not even occurred to me, and you're right it might totally be transformative and make me more confident.  These curricula all dribble pieces, but you need to see how they fit together AND how an experienced teacher brings it alive.  That's a terrific, terrific, terrific suggestion.  What I haven't known, honestly, was whether this is dyslexia or something different.  (Did I mention I don't know what I'm doing?) So are there variants on OG training or a particular type I should look for? 

 

Well you'll rejoice to know he is finally on-par with some of the kids in his newest swim class and even getting accolades and rah rahs from the peanut gallery.  So it's coming.  Everyone stays in this level (Eel) at the Y a long time.  It's just it has been different even within the classes.  Very, very slow progress, anxiety, and a total shying away from frustration.  Other kids they'll shove to the wall and let go under in an attempt to get them to swim.  Ds they NEVER have done that to.  They could just instinctively tell not to.  They sort of have flown him to the wall, never letting him go under.  His play is off and very different from the other kids' during the free play time in the shallow water.  It's just this stuff you watch every day, and it kills me.  But TODAY was a happy day and I'm OWNING it!   :hurray: 

 

Yeah, I want to get him going forward on the math.  I think he would really like the c-rods book.  I think he might be getting bored with dots, lol.  He's downstairs watching Bio 101 with dd.  He's such a nut.

 

Oh, when you say use his currency, what do you mean?  Can you explicate that a bit?

 

If I tell dd we need chocolate chip cookies, she'll be so happy.  I'm very tempted.

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Liz, you wrote: 'He is turning 6 soon and cannot identify the number of sounds in a word.  He can finally hear the differences in vowels.'

Where this statement is used to define a prosodic patterning difficulty, with the rhythmic patterns and metrical structure of speech.

You also wrote: ' my kid still can't hear that there are two distinct sounds in "at".'

 

Where the difficulty with this, is with percieving the 'rise time' in 'a' that has closure with 't'.

While  amplitude depth, rise time, duration, pitch and intensity are all parts of speech.

It is the 'rise time' of vowels that provide the rhythmic patterns of speech.

Though when this 'rise time' of vowels isn't percieved?

Then a word can't be concieved of as a 'metrical structure' or 'rhythmic pattern'.

Where this rhythmic patterning forms the prosodic patterning of words.

The rhythmic pattern provides the metrical structure to segmental phonology.

 

Though the 'swimming' was interesting, if the different types of swimming strokes are thought of in terms of 'metrical structures'?

As the arms push against the water, and then swing forward to make the next stroke.

 

Though I've been following the research by a Prof Usha Goswami for about 10 years, who has been leading research into this area.

Where she has found that teaching children to play simple drums, has been effective in developing an awareness of 'metrical structures'.

Which in turn, carried over into the development of 'phonemic awareness', in children and teenagers with Dyslexia.

 

But this is at the leading edge of research.  So that in regard to an evaluation by a psych?

You would need to teach the psych about this, as they probably know nothing about it?

Geof, you always blow my mind.   :)  I've seen that term "prosody" when I've been reading about developmental disorders, spectrum, etc., but clearly I didn't understand it correctly AT ALL.  I just assumed it meant the speech sounding flat in a sentence.  Your explanation is fascinating.

 

Drums, now THERE'S something my kinesthetic learner would agree with!!  And yes, his SLP is basically begging me to get him into OT that involves bodywork (rhythm, bilateral, etc.), because she says it will help his speech.  I've done with him the types of things I did with dd (single line swing, activities for finger strength, etc.).  Dd struggled with metronome work but eventually got it.  He's much harder though, totally on his own planet. He doesn't seem to be able to hold it together very long, even doing activities that are developmentally appropriate (marching in a circle with music).  Your drums idea sounds practical.  I've been looking into Neuronet for that reason, because it seems to have very carefully paced activities that build up the child's ability to do something with rhythm.  

 

And yes, that's a good question about how his limbs are working together on the swimming.  As of right now what he does in his lessons is not really "swimming" anyway.  The first class (Pike) they spend getting the dc willing to go under water at all.  He passed that.  The next class (Eel) they spend working on being willing to jump in, willing to go under water, willing to float, and basic dog-paddling.  They're not really swimming like you mean yet.  It's all the precursor skills.  The dog paddling, yes I noticed seemed like he was inefficient in his coordination of arms and legs, but that may be lack of experience.  In the gym he seems to be able to figure out coordination.  It's uneven, where sometimes he'll repeat the same error multiple times and not be able to motor plan and solve the problem (why he's falling on a back flip off the bar) for himself.  However once someone puts their hands on him and helps him, he can do it.  At climbing the knotted rope, he's exceptional.  

 

I've been checking into an OT eval for him.  You think I'm indecisive on the psych thing, but the OT is ANOTHER $500 and more quandaries.   :lol:   

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OhE, if he ever makes a breakthrough in swimming, will you let us know what worked? Ds(8) just failed level 1 swimming.....again. We've been trying for several years now.  My older boy struggles too but he know enough now that he won't drown.

Does your YMCA have an adaptive aquatics program?  Several people told me to look for daily.  He's doing it 4 days a week at the Y, and now that his anxiety is down enough I can take him in the water, I'm taking him to the pool myself.  (You should know what the means: it's right under a cell tower and I fry my brain so this child can practice stuff.)  But it's working.  I was really, really discouraged a week or two ago, watching ALL the other kids zoom by him.  I googled on my phone in a moment of sorrow and desperation (aspergers swimming lessons) and came across an article on one of the About.com sites basically saying that they need "many accumulated experiences" and that when the breakthrough comes it won't be because of the magic person or method but that they had accumulated SO many experiences that they were finally ready.  

 

So that's what I've been telling myself, to give him that.  So swimming 4 days a week in class AND a couple days a week with me.  That's all I can handle.  Week in, week out.  He's in the preschool program at the Y and I'm praying he doesn't age out before he finishes the basics.  I think they have some flex and can let him stay in even when he turns 6.  We'll see.  The director said to talk with the lead teacher when the time comes and they'd do what she says.  But the adaptive class they have is probably only once a week.  I've become more aggressive and am going to sign him up for multiple classes of the preschool track to keep him going daily in the fall.  If you get the right person, they can tailor and let him accumulate those experiences without stressing him out.  For my ds it *seems* to be finally working.  I know I'm always dramatic and overblown about how things seem, but whatever, that's how it is to me.  I spent 9 weeks daily, which I think would be the equivalent of a year of typical lessons, sad, sometimes crying, wondering whether it would click, and it's finally clicking.  The adaptive program here has an OT from the MRDD come in to teach the class.  So if you needed private lessons or more frequency, the place to start would be getting connected with who they're using and working through that process.  (how to get more frequency, how to get more qualified help if there's praxis and SN, etc.)  I don't know if every Y is so accommodating, but ours has been very good to us.  

 

I'll try to find that article.

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http://swimming.about.com/od/swimlessons/a/Teaching-A-Swimmer-With-Autism-teaching-swimming-autistic.htm

 

This is the swim article that encouraged me.

 

Adding: I mentioned anxiety in my ds.  It was more a sort of rational anxiety.  He kept saying he could drown, but it was because he literally COULD have.  I didn't tell his teachers about the apraxia at first, and he took on a bunch of water when jumping in and scared himself so much he wouldn't go under for quite a while.  He just kept saying he could drown, he could drown.  Every day we walked around the pool talking about the depth, about the angels watching us, about God watching us, about the angels helping the teachers, about how they could push the water out if he happened to take it on again.  But it was just horrible and it was this sort of rational or rule-driven anxiety, kwim?  He got the idea in his head, and once it was in it was IN.  It took a long time to calm that down, sigh.  

 

This whole willingness to go under again is a big change.  Even the guards noticed and were commenting on it.  His lead teacher has been so excited for his progress.  It's so different when it was easy for the kid and they got it.  When a kid has to overcome a lot of fear, physical coordination of breathing, etc., it's really joyful to watch.  

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Sandy, I'll disclose psych #2 is one of the authors of a major EF screening tool.  It's a special interest of his, and even though Jen KEEPS MENTIONING EF in connection with this stuff, it still hasn't all gelled in my mind.  The way you split those things apart (can do it after instruction vs. can't do it or would need exceptional amounts of therapy to be compelled to do it) is interesting.  We'll see.  I really don't know, and the moms of aspies I've had him around can't say either.  I guess that's why we do evals, lol.

 

And yes, I gained 20 pounds eating for stress before.  Got me through a rough patch, but I haven't gotten it off since, oops.  I'm much more judicious now about my stress eating.  Dd is making some chocolate chip cookies, but we'll just eat a bit and stop and hide them.  

 

Ok, so you're saying look for the most HQ-NP.  #2 is it, without a doubt.  And yes, in reality the question of what is developmental and what needs remediation is my biggest question.  If the HQ-NP is the right person, then that's who I need.  And I'm pretty certain of my nailing of who the HQ-NP is, because he's on all the referral lists.  I just wish he had the 35 page reports like y'all get.  I have yet to find someone in our state who does those.

 

This is too sweet.  They're listening to christmas music while they bake and he's trying to sing along!!!  So cute.  Sigh.  Note to self, have them bake cookies more often.  Stop being so excessively healthy.  :)

 

Adding up to good, even great.  Yes, that's where we want to be!  :)

 

Ok, I just read through the rest of your post.  Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you.  These are the things I'm sorting out.  And it really isn't to say psych #3 isn't a good psych, because I like her a lot.  I'm just very concerned about getting the extra data and someone having the experience in what I KNOW is going on to be really specific and precise.  And that thought process has been shifting.  You've really blown my mind with the whole EF thing.  I think you're right they could end up saying that about him.  He definitely misses things.  What the reason is or what the label will be, I can't say.  So I think you're right that in that sense going to someone whose an EF expert who also is a dyslexia expert is, when you put it that way, really obvious. 

 

And I agree.  I can take data and research and figure out what to do with it.  

 

The other thing dd's eval did for us was give *me* this reframing.  I think that's what *I* need and I think the psych #3 would have been really good at that.  However at some point reframing without specifics won't cut it.  So I think your timetable thing and asking psych #2 upfront when he can say something with some assurance, when the right time is to pursue this stuff is the right way.  Hopefully he has a helpful demeanor.  I don't know.  I adored our freudian "sit on my couch and pour out your woes" psych we used with dd.  It freed me up to go forward much more positively.  That's why I know I have to have evals, whether they can say anything earth-shaking or not, because I've GOT to have some help to have the correct perspective and focus.  Having somebody look at your kid, see it all square, and say this is how it is and you're going to be ok was SO helpful.  I want that again.

 

Thanks for not shooting me.  Thanks for sharing.  :)

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Here is my very limited piece of advice to add to what I said before. When first reading through your choices, my first thought was that #2 sounded like the best choice, but I have no expertise to back that up. As I'm reading other people recommend #2, though, I find myself nodding my head.

 

About swimming -- all four of my kids spent multiple times going through the preschool and level 1 swimming classes. I'm talking a couple of years of me watching them  in those classes and thinking they would never swim. Then they passed through levels 2 and 3, up to level 4, where they swim laps, pretty quickly, with only one or two times through each level. So they eventually caught on. It was frustrating (and expensive for all those lessons), but eventually it clicked. So don't give up!

 

ETA -- I was so uncertain about their abilities that we didn't join a local pool until a couple of years ago. And this is the first year that I would let them swim in the deep end (except for oldest). And then last Saturday they went to a pool party at a different pool and all of them jumped off the 12 foot high dive multiple times!!!  Amazing!!! (And I think they are crazy to do that!)

I've wondered that.  I figured we'd just get the breathing working right and it would all be fine.  I never knew it could take so long and continue to be challenging to acquire through all the lessons.  But I agree the perseverance is worth something.  I'm happy that he actually LIKES the water now.  That's improvement to me.

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DD the younger has been doing the Y classes for a couple years.  She 'aged' out of Pike into Eel LOL!  by which I mean, the teacher said she hadn't 'passed' but due to her age she suggested I move her up to Eel anyway.    This summer (started lessons again in April so months of lessons before it happened) she suddenly 'got over' her fear and now is jumping in and ducking under.  I'm talking one day barely put her mouth under and the next time jumping in and going under with no problem.   Developmental?   Finally got secure enough?  I don't know how you tell.

 

Recently (after the breakthrough)  we went to a friends pool that had a 'kiddie pool' that was big and relatively deep at one end - she played and played at swimming in that pool - trying out mermaid style swimming etc.  I wish we could go there all the time.  At the (farther away) Y that has a similar style pool with play structure she is too focused on the play structure/slide and doesn't work on swimming at all.  And at our regular Y pool even the shallow end is very deep on her and used for lessons anyway so any playing after the lesson is all in water over her head (I am with her of course- but it is clearly not the same for her confidence wise). 

 

My older DD never had the fear of water - but she still got to a point where she just couldn't seem to move to the next level.  With her I think  it was more the using both sides of your body of swimming.   It was similar in that we just kept going and suddenly she got it.  She still struggles a bit with arms (her stroke does not pull her very strongly) but her kick is awesome! I have even been copying her because her kick is so much stronger than mine.

 

Anyway, don't know that that is helpful - but just wanted to say that not every kid moves right up in swimming. 

 

As far as the NP - I would lean toward #1 - just because you got such awesome results with him last time. 

 

 

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Laughing Cat, you're making me appreciate our pool at the Y!  They redid the outdoor pool and it has a VERY shallow end (1 1/2 feet) that comprises maybe 25% of the pool.  50% of the pool goes is 3 1/2 feet or less.  Half of that is under 3'.  Then you have a lap end that maxes out at 5'.  You're right, another pool in town *does* have that play structure.  That hadn't occurred to me that he'd be distracted by it.  Makes sense.  As is, we go in and it's just a huge swath of 3' deep water to try things in and the shallower end to practice diving or just whatever he wants.  

 

When I was growing up pools were much deeper all over, so this idea of a dominantly shallow pool is curious to me.  It's definitely great for learners and kids.  He can literally go through over half the pool without it being over his head, even as a non-swimmer.  

 

Good point on #1.  I don't have a strong reason why I'm looking further.  Obviously he helped us a lot, and he and #2 went to the same places and are friends, doing things very similarly.  I keep telling myself I want fresh perspective, but I don't know if it's that or subtle doubts or what.  I don't know.

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Ice skating is a good sport if anyone is looking. DS can skate but his swimming is meh. 

That's definitely how it was for dd!  We've had ds on the ice, and he doesn't seem to gravitate to it the way dd did, go figure.  But it's a very good point and I definitely won't keep him off.  Wow, that will be a schedule challenge for fall, hadn't thought of that.  

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Yeah, I want to get him going forward on the math.  I think he would really like the c-rods book.  I think he might be getting bored with dots, lol.  He's downstairs watching Bio 101 with dd.  He's such a nut.

 

Oh, when you say use his currency, what do you mean?  Can you explicate that a bit?

 

If I tell dd we need chocolate chip cookies, she'll be so happy.  I'm very tempted.

 

 

 

What do I mean by currency?  I am assuming he'd rather work on the more difficult math with the 9s than stick with the +2 problems?  My DD is the same.  She prefers the harder stuff but has not convinced me that she is solid enough to move on.  I work the hard stuff and slip in the easy.  I encourage the harder but save the applause for what I want her to do.  Sometimes I tell her up front that there will be tea, finger nail polish, or whatever she wants if she shows me all that she can do.  That's what I mean by currency.

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What do I mean by currency?  I am assuming he'd rather work on the more difficult math with the 9s than stick with the +2 problems?  My DD is the same.  She prefers the harder stuff but has not convinced me that she is solid enough to move on.  I work the hard stuff and slip in the easy.  I encourage the harder but save the applause for what I want her to do.  Sometimes I tell her up front that there will be tea, finger nail polish, or whatever she wants if she shows me all that she can do.  That's what I mean by currency.

 

I'll have to think on that.  He's a really different kind of bird, and I don't have a way to describe it or know what it is.  There is no bribery with him.  He's either ready or he's not, able or he's not, wants to or he doesn't.  There's only his way and his time.  Everything we do is at his good pleasure.  If I want to take his picture, I bend down, look him in the eye, and in my most endearing way say "Please?"  Seriously, I just can't describe it.  There is no compulsion with him.  Either he's willing to do it or he isn't, sees it your way or he doesn't.  If he is ready to do it, the bribe is superperfluous.  If he's not, the bribe won't help. 

 

What you actually got me to think about was currency as in narratives, stories ways of connecting and thinking.  Dots might be boring, but I could probably make up stories using LotR or whatever and bring it to life.  It would bring back the zip.  We've been using the same mancala beads to do our math dot patterns for MONTHS, and I think it has lost the zip.  I probably just need to find tanks and call them military formations.  Anybody have a source for a bucket of small tanks?   :lol: 

 

If you don't see me post on the boards, you'll know what happened--I got lost looking online for small things to use as manipulatives for military math.  :D

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I'll have to think on that.  He's a really different kind of bird, and I don't have a way to describe it or know what it is.  There is no bribery with him.  He's either ready or he's not, able or he's not, wants to or he doesn't.  There's only his way and his time.  Everything we do is at his good pleasure.  If I want to take his picture, I bend down, look him in the eye, and in my most endearing way say "Please?"  Seriously, I just can't describe it.  There is no compulsion with him.  Either he's willing to do it or he isn't, sees it your way or he doesn't.  If he is ready to do it, the bribe is superperfluous.  If he's not, the bribe won't help. 

 

What you actually got me to think about was currency as in narratives, stories ways of connecting and thinking.  Dots might be boring, but I could probably make up stories using LotR or whatever and bring it to life.  It would bring back the zip.  We've been using the same mancala beads to do our math dot patterns for MONTHS, and I think it has lost the zip.  I probably just need to find tanks and call them military formations.  Anybody have a source for a bucket of small tanks?   :lol: 

 

If you don't see me post on the boards, you'll know what happened--I got lost looking online for small things to use as manipulatives for military math.   :D

If plastic tanks inspire your DS to do his thing, that's his currency.  Check out the dollar stores.  Yes, I happen to have buckets full of plastic tanks, boats, men with bazookas, and all kinds of military stuff.    :patriot:

 

You are talking to the woman that purchased a crown for her DD to wear for the express purpose of toilet training.  If a werewolf costume or a Godzilla bike helmet made your child more compliant to work on +1 math problems only, I'd go for it.  

 

You are right though, my kiddos aren't spectrum-ish.  It's times like this that I would ask, "What would kbutton or Jennifer-72 do?"

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We used a mix of army guys and bugs from Dollar Tree. Surprisingly, it was mini-marshmallows that made the breakthrough. I put them on a 100 chart and he had to tell me the number in order to get the marshmallow. We started off with just recognition of the number, then we went to tens or fives above or below the number he had just done, and went from there.  We also drove cars along number lines for a while.  For patterns, we used skittles and m&ms.

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I think when you have a younger one being evaluated, especially one with language delays, no matter how skilled the evaluator you will still be left with lots of questions. I don't mean that to sound like you wont get any answers though. Many questions you do have now will be answered only to be replaced with new ones! I think since you have the experience of your daughter's testing it is probably harder to figure out what to do. I wouldn't expect the numbers will be as ultimately helpful for him as they were for her. I think number 1 or 2 both seem like good options.

 

As for math counters, I like the idea of mini marshmallows. Of course for those to be your boy's currency, I would have them be ammunition for one of those DIY marshmallow shooters or simple catapults projects you can find on Pinterest!

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We used a mix of army guys and bugs from Dollar Tree. Surprisingly, it was mini-marshmallows that made the breakthrough. I put them on a 100 chart and he had to tell me the number in order to get the marshmallow. We started off with just recognition of the number, then we went to tens or fives above or below the number he had just done, and went from there.  We also drove cars along number lines for a while.  For patterns, we used skittles and m&ms.

Ooo, love your ideas!  

 

And thanks Heather, I clearly wasn't clued in enough on boy toys!! I will educate myself and get shopping!!  :D

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I think when you have a younger one being evaluated, especially one with language delays, no matter how skilled the evaluator you will still be left with lots of questions. I don't mean that to sound like you wont get any answers though. Many questions you do have now will be answered only to be replaced with new ones! I think since you have the experience of your daughter's testing it is probably harder to figure out what to do. I wouldn't expect the numbers will be as ultimately helpful for him as they were for her. I think number 1 or 2 both seem like good options.

 

As for math counters, I like the idea of mini marshmallows. Of course for those to be your boy's currency, I would have them be ammunition for one of those DIY marshmallow shooters or simple catapults projects you can find on Pinterest!

Ooo, good thought on earning the marshmallows and then shooting them!!  :)

 

Wow, I hadn't thought through the idea of questions being replaced with questions, sigh.  Well FOR TODAY let me enjoy my peace and bliss.  Psych #2 called me back, and he's AWESOME.  He felt he could be VERY definitive on what is developmental and what is disability and said he has quite a bit of experience with kids with apraxia.  (I'm a neuropsych.  I see kids with motor planning issues all the time.) So I feel like I've finally nailed it.  He felt very certain he could help me.  I'm excited, sigh.  Even if the questions get replaced with more questions, as you say that's going to happen.  For now, I've got a START, the most qualified person I could find to evaluate him.  We'll see what happens.

 

What will I do with all this free time now that I don't have to worry and stress about this?  :D

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Canucks, your ideas are interesting! The book "How to Get Your Kids Off the Refrigerator and Onto Learning" has something similar, only paying them for the hardest tasks and using a treasure chest for the store.

 

On the math, what you're saying about EF, sequencing, working memory, etc. is very true and how I had to work with dd.  Ds I think may have dyscalculia.  He's just totally on a different planet, and I don't see him doing written math for a very long time. And you *can* be on the spectrum and this way, since I know someone who is.  As you say, that's why I have to get evals so I can know what I'm working with. I feel very comfortable working math with real math and living books, etc. at this point and I feel no need to push written until I see some evidence that he's ready.

 

I'm just relieved to have someone who can do the testing and dig in on this. When somebody is this far out of the norm, you just really have to have some answers.  I can't just go teach him the way I think and sort of la dee dah assume I know what's going on.  I think it's obvious, but I've got to have answers, whatever answers there are to be had.  

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By the way, both boys are at the point where they involve me in their private learning. We often use our manipulatives in different ways and get lost in how their creative minds go in various directions. This is even more pronounced in my youngest. I just feel honored to be included in this play. I have learned not to try to guide this form of learning. I just observe and get involved the way they want me to be involved. I can sometimes use it as a bargaining chip to get my youngest to focus on work he is resistant on doing. If I can't get him to focus on what we need to do but he wants to do something that he enjoys I will tell him, ok, first this, then this, then this, and then we get to do your activity. Anyway, when they are involving me in their own learning, I take the time to observe and learn where their minds are, what directions their minds are taking, and what tools to further supply them with.

Yes, this is a very respectful way of working together, and there's a lot of that in our house.  

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