S/O Ask a REAL Christian

[TranquilMind]

I am not Ipsey, but my story is highly similar; she and I have talked about this before off-forum, too. The only difference is I don't call myself an atheist, but who knows, I might just be chicken. I know I i believe little of what I once believed. Like Ipsey, I was absolutely certain I was a True Christian, that God was leading me into this or that direction. I have had several experiences that were profound; I think they were divine or supernatural. I do still believe this about those experiences, but i don't believe most doctrine anymore.

 

It's like this: your presuppositions influence how you explain experiences. When I was a kid, I remember one time I fiercely defended the existence of Santa Clause to a classmate who said Santa was just parents. I thought my experiences and information was real, so to me, it was. Further evidence later revealed that I was wrong, though. In the face of mounting evidence that there was no Santa, I had to conclude that times I thought I "heard" the reindeer on my roof were explainable in some other way.

 

There was a particular experience that was so remarkable, I still say it was something supernatural, or points to things that cannot be understood in scientific ways. But believing that is a long way from being a die-hard Evangelical.

Well, Santa Claus is not a good example, because telling your kids about Santa Claus is equivalent to reading Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer to them. It's just a fun story (or a lie, depending on your perspective.  It bothers me more, because no one tells their kids Rudolph is real, but they tell them Santa claus is, which I find odd).   Santa Claus is a lie/fib/fantasy (choose your term) that parents tell their kids in order to enjoy a holiday.  Your friend was proven wrong unequivovally as soon as he figured out his parents were not telling him the truth and were, in fact, purchasing the presents.  In the same way,  there isn't really a Sleeping Beauty or a Snow White or a Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. 

 

God is not in that category. 

What is your further EVIDENCE that "revealed you were wrong" about believing in God/Jesus.  That's what I am getting at, I think.   

[Guest]

Well, Santa Claus is not a good example, because telling your kids about Santa Claus is equivalent to reading Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer to them. It's just a fun story (or a lie, depending on your perspective. It bothers me more, because no one tells their kids Rudolph is real, but they tell them Santa claus is, which I find odd). Santa Claus is a lie/fib/fantasy (choose your term) that parents tell their kids in order to enjoy a holiday. Your friend was proven wrong unequivovally as soon as he figured out his parents were not telling him the truth and were, in fact, purchasing the presents. In the same way, there isn't really a Sleeping Beauty or a Snow White or a Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.

 

God is not in that category.

What is your further EVIDENCE that "revealed you were wrong" about believing in God/Jesus. That's what I am getting at, I think.

Yes, well I figured the Santa example would bother you, or someone, on the basis that adults all acknowledge that he is a legend/myth, whatever they might tell their kids.

 

Here is what began to look to me like evidence that I was wrong about God's involvement in my life. Now, this is about to get personal in a hurry, so please be kind.

 

One of the things I believed God led me to was to trust him with family size, a la Duggar family. This was before the Duggars were on a national show; I knew about them because I was on the QF e-mail loop. The numerous ways in which this subject came before me was totally amazing. In the interest of keeping this more concise, though, I'll refrain from sharing it. There were two problems with following the QF path, though. One, dh was never on board with it. Two, we don't appear to be the most fertile folks in the world. But, I prayed and believed that whatever God willed would be the best thing and that if this truly was the direction he wanted me to go, he would overcome those problems.

 

At first, it seemed like he did. Dh had a change of heart and decided we could have one more, our third. He persisted through nearly a year of "trying" to conceive. We conceived. This was a sign to me; a reward from God for my steadfast prayers and belief.

 

When I went into labor on May 6, 2003, I had no idea everything would change within three hours. I began to bleed. I was tossed into an ambulance and careened from the birth center where I thought my baby would be born (another thing I thought God led me to) to the hospital five minutes away. Five minutes was too long. My beautiful, full-term, 9lb 2 oz. baby Lydia Clare was born in stinging, empty silence.

 

You might think my faith pitched right then, but you would be wrong. I read every book I could on God, pain, and heartache. I trusted God would redeem this terrible tragedy. Six months later, I conceived again. More seeming confirmation - this is exactly what I had prayed for. I grouped up a "prayer team" who agreed to pray for us and the new baby every day. That was a short assignment, as I lost that baby, too, at 8 weeks.

 

This was when things started to turn for me. I felt like I was going numb inside, like I was nothing but a feather, carried along by whatever wind God sent my way. Why pray? I asked. What was the purpose? Was it to get God to do what I hoped? Because if it actually wasn't, then there was no reason to pray for my future unborn children. And, if I had prayed fervently for "God's will" to be done and two of my babies died, how could I imagine I wanted God's will any further? Maybe "his will" would be for ALL my kids to die, or my dh to go down in a fiery plane crash.

 

When I conceived again, I did not pray. I couldn't. Every baby I prayed over died. It seemed like my "odds" had been better with my first two, who were born before I was Super Christian. I never prayed over M. And that pregnancy was no picnic, either. But he made it.

 

I still did not completely quit thinking God would step in with something amazing. I was not picky. I would have adopted, done foster care, or gone through another difficult pregnancy if God had worked out the details in such a way. All around me, i saw examples of people who DID get their miracle baby, including our own boardie's Christmas baby, whose story you probably know. Eventually, it was better for my psychological health to come to terms with not having more children to raise. I grant you, it could still happen, but I don't much want it anymore, and I am far from a place of thinking any longer that God has anything to do with it.

 

As a footnote, it wasn't just the turn of events in my own life that made me question, it was other things, too - a friend's child dying of cancer, my sister's death, even Steven Curtis Chapman's tragedy. All chipped away at the hope I once had that God cares about me personally, and intervenes in my life.

 

So, sorry that is long, but the whole story is book-length and complex. Maybe this personal story could help someone, though, so there they are - all my guts for everyone to examine.

[SadieMarie]

Right, so get on the road to salvation if you want to.  If you don't, then that's a choice you're making and it has consequences (from the Christian POV; I understand that you don't believe this is so).  But God isn't sending anyone to this hellish existence.  People have a choice -- they can either be walking toward Him with the understanding they have or walking away from Him / denying him. I won't make a judgment on anyone's salvation and path.  That's between them and God.  As for choosing to walk toward God, we tend to believe that the Orthodox Church (the Ark he provided) best supplies the tools/path one needs for this eternity with God but that doesn't mean there aren't any lifeboats out there either.  We don't know about those boats -- we just know that the Ark provides the tools useful to us to pursue union with Christ. That's what mommaduck meant above when she said, "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where she isn't."

 

 

How does one walk toward a god they do not believe exists?  It is like assuming that everyone really does believe and those who say they don't are choosing to walk away.  And I am not trying to be confrontational or anything really.  I find your posts to be interesting and sensitive while still being true to your own beliefs.  I just don't get it.  I am betting there are a fair number of people who do not believe but go through the motions because of family or guilt or whatever, they still don't "believe".  Are they walking away?  

[Calm37]

Danielle, Just wanted to say that I did read your story. It is so similar to my own journey, including your questions. We came to very different conclusions in the end, but I just wanted to say thank you for sharing all that. I am 10 years out from all the reproductive nightmares and losses, but your story brings back the very "daily-ness" of it all. I remember the struggle to reconcile God's love with the visual of my dead child. Oh, so hard. Cathy

[milovany]

How does one walk toward a god they do not believe exists?  It is like assuming that everyone really does believe and those who say they don't are choosing to walk away.  And I am not trying to be confrontational or anything really.  I find your posts to be interesting and sensitive while still being true to your own beliefs.  I just don't get it.  I am betting there are a fair number of people who do not believe but go through the motions because of family or guilt or whatever, they still don't "believe".  Are they walking away?  

 

Well, yeah, if one doesn't believe in God now, then there's nothing in their POV to walk toward, you're right. They've rejected the notion of God so they just go on living (hopefully in a kind, thoughtful way). If there IS a God, that will then be between Him and them when the times comes.

[Erin]

So, sorry that is long, but the whole story is book-length and complex. Maybe this personal story could help someone, though, so there they are - all my guts for everyone to examine.

 

And of course that's why other people never seem to be able to answer the question, "Where was God when I needed him??"   :(

I'm so sorry you hurt, Quill.  

[TranquilMind]

Yes, well I figured the Santa example would bother you, or someone, on the basis that adults all acknowledge that he is a legend/myth, whatever they might tell their kids.

 

Here is what began to look to me like evidence that I was wrong about God's involvement in my life. Now, this is about to get personal in a hurry, so please be kind.

 

One of the things I believed God led me to was to trust him with family size, a la Duggar family. This was before the Duggars were on a national show; I knew about them because I was on the QF e-mail loop. The numerous ways in which this subject came before me was totally amazing. In the interest of keeping this more concise, though, I'll refrain from sharing it. There were two problems with following the QF path, though. One, dh was never on board with it. Two, we don't appear to be the most fertile folks in the world. But, I prayed and believed that whatever God willed would be the best thing and that if this truly was the direction he wanted me to go, he would overcome those problems.

 

At first, it seemed like he did. Dh had a change of heart and decided we could have one more, our third. He persisted through nearly a year of "trying" to conceive. We conceived. This was a sign to me; a reward from God for my steadfast prayers and belief.

 

When I went into labor on May 6, 2003, I had no idea everything would change within three hours. I began to bleed. I was tossed into an ambulance and careened from the birth center where I thought my baby would be born (another thing I thought God led me to) to the hospital five minutes away. Five minutes was too long. My beautiful, full-term, 9lb 2 oz. baby Lydia Clare was born in stinging, empty silence.

 

You might think my faith pitched right then, but you would be wrong. I read every book I could on God, pain, and heartache. I trusted God would redeem this terrible tragedy. Six months later, I conceived again. More seeming confirmation - this is exactly what I had prayed for. I grouped up a "prayer team" who agreed to pray for us and the new baby every day. That was a short assignment, as I lost that baby, too, at 8 weeks.

 

This was when things started to turn for me. I felt like I was going numb inside, like I was nothing but a feather, carried along by whatever wind God sent my way. Why pray? I asked. What was the purpose? Was it to get God to do what I hoped? Because if it actually wasn't, then there was no reason to pray for my future unborn children. And, if I had prayed fervently for "God's will" to be done and two of my babies died, how could I imagine I wanted God's will any further? Maybe "his will" would be for ALL my kids to die, or my dh to go down in a fiery plane crash.

 

When I conceived again, I did not pray. I couldn't. Every baby I prayed over died. It seemed like my "odds" had been better with my first two, who were born before I was Super Christian. I never prayed over M. And that pregnancy was no picnic, either. But he made it.

 

I still did not completely quit thinking God would step in with something amazing. I was not picky. I would have adopted, done foster care, or gone through another difficult pregnancy if God had worked out the details in such a way. All around me, i saw examples of people who DID get their miracle baby, including our own boardie's Christmas baby, whose story you probably know. Eventually, it was better for my psychological health to come to terms with not having more children to raise. I grant you, it could still happen, but I don't much want it anymore, and I am far from a place of thinking any longer that God has anything to do with it.

 

As a footnote, it wasn't just the turn of events in my own life that made me question, it was other things, too - a friend's child dying of cancer, my sister's death, even Steven Curtis Chapman's tragedy. All chipped away at the hope I once had that God cares about me personally, and intervenes in my life.

 

So, sorry that is long, but the whole story is book-length and complex. Maybe this personal story could help someone, though, so there they are - all my guts for everyone to examine.

I am so, so sorry for your losses.    I have lost all my other family members of origin, but not a child, so I can't imagine.  I'm so sorry. 

 

Not much helps at this point.  I wondered why when my own family members died, some at early ages, even though we prayed they would live. 

 

It isn't God's Will for a child to die.  It just isn't, and there are so many scriptures I could use to support that, but I won't do that here.  I absolutely recoil when some awful thing happens and people say, "Well, it must be God's will that little Susie died."   No, His will IS the way it was originally supposed to be, before death and sin entered the world.  His way is peace and prosperity and joy and long, fruitful life for all, and we still get to see little glimpses of the Kingdom now and then.  Since sin, sickness, death, and decay has entered the world, there are so many innocent victims of the sins of others, even unknown others who damaged the earth, or poisoned some area so kids die of cancer, or repressed/stole from other groups and many other awful things.  There are ongoing ripples when one person or one group wrongs another. 

 

I sure don't have all the answers.  I have some things I have asked God about, and on some, I received answers, and on others, I am still waiting.    I just trust that there are pieces of the puzzle that I can't see, and that all those who didn't get to live full lives here are recompensed in some amazing way for eternity - that whole "the last will be first and the first, last" thing.    I trust in God and what He said, regardless of what I see at the present moment because I know that every word of His is Spirit and Life and I will see how it worked, sooner or later. 

[Ipsey]

How does this possibly happen?

 

I have always wondered that, and I'm truly curious.   How can you have a real encounter with the Living God, KNOW He is real and there, and walk in His Spirit, and then later say, well, that was fun, but now I'm going to believe that it wasn't real.  Or did that personal encounter never happen?   I guess I don't know what to think about the part where "other Christians who didn't believe the Bible were false Christians" - what does that mean?  What did they not believe?  What other ways to heaven did the "false" Christians believe?  Because Jesus Himself tells us that He has "sheep that are not of this fold". Or did they believe things like all paths of any sort of belief leads to God?  I'm curious and you are the first  person who has specifically spelled out this sort of progression.

 

I can't imagine, and since you brought it up, I'd like to know, if you are able to articulate it.    Maybe that's the only way you know is on your deathbed, because scripture tells us that he who perseveres until the end (whatever "the end" is) will be saved.   Maybe it is right after, or at death.   I don't know.  I just know that those whom He has called will be saved, however, whenever. 

 

Hmmm, well,  let's see if I can manage it.

It wasn't that "it was fun, but now I'm going to believe that it wasn't real."  You have no possibility of ever understanding my perspective if you choose to represent it in that way.

 

I don't have a ton of time, but I'll answer what I can now and come back later.

 

"Christians who didn't believe the Bible were false Christians."  I would have put these things in there. "Christians" who did not believe in the substitutionary death of Jesus. "Christians" who believed there were other ways to get to God apart from Jesus. I fell right into the "Real" Christian category that the OP offered.

 

As far as "sheep that are not of this fold," I had no clear concept what that meant. Mormons use it to refer to themselves, that Jesus was going to the Americas to save them.  Is that what you believe?  I think my understanding is that there were people who had not yet received word of Him and that the gospel would soon arrive to them.  I think I might have also believed it was about Christian groups, really.  That Christians should accept other Christians, whatever their group (denomination) so long as they were True Christians. For instance, so long as one was born again receiving the gift of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ, then that we were all Christians, no matter what church building we went to. I know that wasn't what Jesus was referring to specifically because there weren't denominations like that when Jesus was alive. Other sheep of the fold might have been in other countries, other times, etc, but they were all Jesus sheep, saved by his death and resurrection and through their faith.

 

I need to make dinner. I may get back to this.

[Guest]

I am so, so sorry for your losses. I have lost all my other family members of origin, but not a child, so I can't imagine. I'm so sorry.

 

Not much helps at this point. I wondered why when my own family members died, some at early ages, even though we prayed they would live.

 

It isn't God's Will for a child to die. It just isn't, and there are so many scriptures I could use to support that, but I won't do that here. I absolutely recoil when some awful thing happens and people say, "Well, it must be God's will that little Susie died." No, His will IS the way it was originally supposed to be, before death and sin entered the world. His way is peace and prosperity and joy and long, fruitful life for all, and we still get to see little glimpses of the Kingdom now and then. Since sin, sickness, death, and decay has entered the world, there are so many innocent victims of the sins of others, even unknown others who damaged the earth, or poisoned some area so kids die of cancer, or repressed/stole from other groups and many other awful things. There are ongoing ripples when one person or one group wrongs another.

 

I sure don't have all the answers. I have some things I have asked God about, and on some, I received answers, and on others, I am still waiting. I just trust that there are pieces of the puzzle that I can't see, and that all those who didn't get to live full lives here are recompensed in some amazing way for eternity - that whole "the last will be first and the first, last" thing. I trust in God and what He said, regardless of what I see at the present moment because I know that every word of His is Spirit and Life and I will see how it worked, sooner or later.

tranquil, I thank you for being kind. I know your heart is in the right place. It is at this question of "God's will" that the belief system starts to crumble for me, and for others. So, it is not God's will that my babies died? But, doesn't God's will prevail? Is God unable to arrange things in myriad ways that would have saved my Lydia?

 

A short while after Lydia died, a friend of mine had a healthy baby boy, two weeks pre-dates. He was born with the cord around his neck. "So, you see," my friend gloated, "God had me go into labor early so my son would not die from cord strangulation." I could cry just remembering this! It literally felt like she STABBED me in the heart when she said that! He did not do this for me! my daughter could have lived if I had been at the hospital one hour sooner.

 

So, if God can change things, it makes no sense that he would not. If God would, but cannot, then there is no reason to pray. Moreover, no reason to worship a god who either cannot or will not avert senseless tragedy. Can we get philosophical and say God can bring good out of bad? We can, but is any "good" thing worth the life of your child to you? It also goes back to the all-powerful aspect. If he can bring good out of bad, he can bring good out of good, too. To use an analogy, I am a decent seamstress. Once in a while, I have bought a "junk" outfit at Goodwill, and transformed it into something pretty. But just because I *can* make a pretty dress out of a formerly ugly dress, does not mean that is the *only* way I could make a nice dress. And I don't have omnipotence in my sewing kit! Does that make sense?

[Incognito]

Quill - FWIW, I think that if you consider death as the ultimate bad, then it is hard to see God letting that happen to an innocent child.  If death isn't the worst thing, then God not preventing it isn't necessarily an impotent or uninvolved god.  I see room for the mystery once I let go of death as evil.

[Muttichen]

Danielle,  I haven't lost a child, but I have had exactly the same  questions when a close friend died suddenly when we were 17. It seemed impossible that a loving, all-powerful God could have stood by and let that happen.  I read When Bad Things Happen to Good People.  The author's answer is that things happen that are beyond God's control.  He is crying and asking why along with us.  That was comforting at first, but that's not the God of the Bible.  I pushed people at my church for a better answer and all I got was trite things like, "God will bring good out of this somehow." I was like, He's GOD.  He can bring about the good some other way.

 

What helped me most was talking to my friend's dad, who is a pastor.  He encouraged me to deal honestly with God.  To honestly face my questions, my doubts, and my anger, and to take them to God, because He loves me and He cares about what is in my heart.  I did that and really went at it with God and came very close to unbelief.  And then God answered me.  He opened my heart and led me to believe in what I couldn't see.  If you'd like to know more about how that happened, you can PM me.  I don't want to get into it all here. I just want to let you know that I am a Christian and your questions make total sense to me!

[Guest]

Quill - FWIW, I think that if you consider death as the ultimate bad, then it is hard to see God letting that happen to an innocent child. If death isn't the worst thing, then God not preventing it isn't necessarily an impotent or uninvolved god. I see room for the mystery once I let go of death as evil.

It was the worse thing in the context I was working with at the time. Remember, I thought God was bringing this child into my life as a reward for trusting in him. I thought that God had changed my heart from someone who was absolutely not going to have more than three kids to someone who started to see it as good and desirable to have more than three kids. Only, as soon as I started to want that, I was no longer able to have a big family. So, that made me say, why mess with me, then? I did not want to conceive children, only to soon say goodbye to them. So don't have me conceive in the first place, then. SWIM?

 

FWIW, I don't think death is the ultimate evil. In fact, as Dumbledore says in Harry Potter, at the end of a life well-lived, one meets death like greeting an old friend. But a baby who dies on the day of her birth? Perfectly healthy, but for a faulty placenta? It makes no sense. It can only make sense if life is full of the random and the tragic. It makes no sense if life is overseen by a loving and all-powerful being.

[chocolatechip]

tranquil, I thank you for being kind. I know your heart is in the right place. It is at this question of "God's will" that the belief system starts to crumble for me, and for others. So, it is not God's will that my babies died? But, doesn't God's will prevail? Is God unable to arrange things in myriad ways that would have saved my Lydia?

 

A short while after Lydia died, a friend of mine had a healthy baby boy, two weeks pre-dates. He was born with the cord around his neck. "So, you see," my friend gloated, "God had me go into labor early so my son would not die from cord strangulation." I could cry just remembering this! It literally felt like she STABBED me in the heart when she said that! He did not do this for me! my daughter could have lived if I had been at the hospital one hour sooner.

 

So, if God can change things, it makes no sense that he would not. If God would, but cannot, then there is no reason to pray. Moreover, no reason to worship a god who either cannot or will not avert senseless tragedy. Can we get philosophical and say God can bring good out of bad? We can, but is any "good" thing worth the life of your child to you? It also goes back to the all-powerful aspect. If he can bring good out of bad, he can bring good out of good, too. To use an analogy, I am a decent seamstress. Once in a while, I have bought a "junk" outfit at Goodwill, and transformed it into something pretty. But just because I *can* make a pretty dress out of a formerly ugly dress, does not mean that is the *only* way I could make a nice dress. And I don't have omnipotence in my sewing kit! Does that make sense?

I am beyond sorry for your loss. And I am so sorry that your friend was so insensitive; that would have been so hard to have to listen to her. 

 

I have heard someone once describe what we see of our lives as the back of a needlework piece: It's abstract and random and doesn't make sense. I don't understand why God allows certain things at times because all I can see is the back of the embroidery. But He can see the front and is working to create something beautiful from my life, even if I don't understand. 

 

I'm an Orthodox Christian, and we often pray: Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, and by this, I'm not groveling on the ground in fear, rather, I'm saying, Lord, give me what I need to work out my salvation. I don't know what I really need. I THINK I know. But what I want is not always good for me. 

 

It is hard, though, and it is good to grieve. The world is fallen, and because of that, sin and death entered. Death was not God's intent for any person. In the beginning, we were created to live without death. But He gave us free will, and as a result, now the world is fallen. God wants to save us all and give us eternal life. But sometimes sad things happen. 

 

Christ allowed Lazarus to die. He knew Lazarus was sick. After L. died and Jesus arrived, Martha said, "Lord if You had been here, my brother would not have died." She couldn't see any reason for the pain. But Christ used Lazarus to manifest God's glory. 

 

Sometimes we just can't know. Maybe God uses the pain in our lives to touch someone else. We might never know, never see that our endurance through suffering has touched another's heart. I don't know why or how, but He does.

And so I've chosen to trust Him in my life, even in the pain, even when I can't see any reason for the pain. 

 

It is so hard sometimes. I am so sorry about your sweet Lydia.  :grouphug:

 

Please know that I don't mean to hurt you at all. Just wanted to share how I look at the issue.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Guest]

Danielle, I haven't lost a child, but I have had exactly the same questions when a close friend died suddenly when we were 17. It seemed impossible that a loving, all-powerful God could have stood by and let that happen. I read When Bad Things Happen to Good People. The author's answer is that things happen that are beyond God's control. He is crying and asking why along with us. That was comforting at first, but that's not the God of the Bible. I pushed people at my church for a better answer and all I got was trite things like, "God will bring good out of this somehow." I was like, He's GOD. He can bring about the good some other way.

 

What helped me most was talking to my friend's dad, who is a pastor. He encouraged me to deal honestly with God. To honestly face my questions, my doubts, and my anger, and to take them to God, because He loves me and He cares about what is in my heart. I did that and really went at it with God and came very close to unbelief. And then God answered me. He opened my heart and led me to believe in what I couldn't see. If you'd like to know more about how that happened, you can PM me. I don't want to get into it all here. I just want to let you know that I am a Christian and your questions make total sense to me!

Well, meaning no disrespect, but I feel I gave him ample time and opportunity to answer me. I hoped for ten years that he would redeem my daughter's death. I prayed that if it was not to be, just take away my longing then, because I did not want to hold out hope for something that was never going to come to be. He did not do this.

 

I am happy for you and anyone else who has been able to believe still or anew or never doubted from the word go. I think it is better for one's mind. But I don't think that is a gift I have been given.

[TranquilMind]

Hmmm, well,  let's see if I can manage it.

It wasn't that "it was fun, but now I'm going to believe that it wasn't real."  You have no possibility of ever understanding my perspective if you choose to represent it in that way.

 

I don't have a ton of time, but I'll answer what I can now and come back later.

 

"Christians who didn't believe the Bible were false Christians."  I would have put these things in there. "Christians" who did not believe in the substitutionary death of Jesus. "Christians" who believed there were other ways to get to God apart from Jesus. I fell right into the "Real" Christian category that the OP offered.

 

As far as "sheep that are not of this fold," I had no clear concept what that meant. Mormons use it to refer to themselves, that Jesus was going to the Americas to save them.  Is that what you believe?  I think my understanding is that there were people who had not yet received word of Him and that the gospel would soon arrive to them.  I think I might have also believed it was about Christian groups, really.  That Christians should accept other Christians, whatever their group (denomination) so long as they were True Christians. For instance, so long as one was born again receiving the gift of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ, then that we were all Christians, no matter what church building we went to. I know that wasn't what Jesus was referring to specifically because there weren't denominations like that when Jesus was alive. Other sheep of the fold might have been in other countries, other times, etc, but they were all Jesus sheep, saved by his death and resurrection and through their faith.

 

I need to make dinner. I may get back to this.

 I do not know what Jesus meant by "I have sheep not of this fold".  I figure He doesn't need to clear it with me, and I will find out who they are later.  ;)

I agree with you that the label over the door doesn't mean too much.   There weren't "denominations" in the early church, but there sure were separate groups of believers with some different views...same thing. 

First Corinthians 3: 

 

1Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4For when one says, “I follow Paul,†and another, “I follow Apollos,†are you not mere human beings?

 

5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

[TranquilMind]

tranquil, I thank you for being kind. I know your heart is in the right place. It is at this question of "God's will" that the belief system starts to crumble for me, and for others. So, it is not God's will that my babies died? But, doesn't God's will prevail? Is God unable to arrange things in myriad ways that would have saved my Lydia?

 

A short while after Lydia died, a friend of mine had a healthy baby boy, two weeks pre-dates. He was born with the cord around his neck. "So, you see," my friend gloated, "God had me go into labor early so my son would not die from cord strangulation." I could cry just remembering this! It literally felt like she STABBED me in the heart when she said that! He did not do this for me! my daughter could have lived if I had been at the hospital one hour sooner.

 

So, if God can change things, it makes no sense that he would not. If God would, but cannot, then there is no reason to pray. Moreover, no reason to worship a god who either cannot or will not avert senseless tragedy. Can we get philosophical and say God can bring good out of bad? We can, but is any "good" thing worth the life of your child to you? It also goes back to the all-powerful aspect. If he can bring good out of bad, he can bring good out of good, too. To use an analogy, I am a decent seamstress. Once in a while, I have bought a "junk" outfit at Goodwill, and transformed it into something pretty. But just because I *can* make a pretty dress out of a formerly ugly dress, does not mean that is the *only* way I could make a nice dress. And I don't have omnipotence in my sewing kit! Does that make sense?

Wow, very insensitive for that friend of yours to say that to you right after your loss of a baby!  So sorry.  While I'm sure she intended to thank God for the healthy birth, the hurt to you must have been immeasurable.  I would have called her on that, personally.    I don't know why what happened to you happened, but I only trust that like Job, you can be blessed in the end anyway and come out on top.    I remember some preacher I was listening to on the radio in Chicago one time.  He kept repeating, "God WINS in the end." and how we win right along with Him when we persevere and get back up.  On hard days, it is tough to remember that, but what option do we have?  We keep on going because we have to.  Our families need us.  Others pick us up and we go on. 

 

Does God's will prevail all the time?  NO...because of this pesky free will thing which we have and which will never be withdrawn.  Do you think it is God's Will that Christians are being beheaded in Iraq right now?  Or that rioting and looting was happening just the last couple of days in St. Louis?  Or that Ebola is spreading in Africa and thousands are dying?  Or all the bad and evil things that happen in the world to people?  God's Will only prevails when everybody does what He said to do (10 commandments, or even the 2 condensed commandments, as Jesus said....but they don't because of greed and many other motives), but He doesn't force them to do that. 

 

Men screw it up in all sorts of intended and unintended ways and God does not intervene in that on a macro level, except to call us back to Him.    Once in awhile, He does intervene, notably.  But it will all be made right in the LONG run.  Of that, I am certain. I don't have the answers for that YET.  ;)  But one day you will smile and see your child again, forever.  I agree with you that good can come from good or from bad.  But God NEVER takes your child or puts a disease on you or some other awful thing to "teach you something" as erroneous and unbiblical theology goes.  He just wants us to know that regardless, He's got our back, and to get back up and  stay the course, and Trust Him to work it all out over time. 

[TranquilMind]

Well, meaning no disrespect, but I feel I gave him ample time and opportunity to answer me. I hoped for ten years that he would redeem my daughter's death. I prayed that if it was not to be, just take away my longing then, because I did not want to hold out hope for something that was never going to come to be. He did not do this.

 

I am happy for you and anyone else who has been able to believe still or anew or never doubted from the word go. I think it is better for one's mind. But I don't think that is a gift I have been given.

What does it mean that you hoped that "that he would redeem my daughter' death"?  What did you expect or ask to happen?  What did you need to see?

 

Why the time limit of 10 years?  I'm curious.

 

What if it is still coming?  

 

It's never over until it's over. 

 

I believe He will do every single thing promised in His Word, so that's settled for me.  It might not be done in my time frame, or look the way I expect, or I might not even recognize how something happened in response while I am still in this shell....but it SHALL be, if He said it. 

 

Praying abundantly above everything you could ask or think happens for you as well. 

[Guest]

What does it mean that you hoped that "that he would redeem my daughter' death"? What did you expect or ask to happen? What did you need to see?

 

Why the time limit of 10 years? I'm curious.

 

What if it is still coming?

 

It's never over until it's over.

 

I believe He will do every single thing promised in His Word, so that's settled for me. It might not be done in my time frame, or look the way I expect, or I might not even recognize how something happened in response while I am still in this shell....but it SHALL be, if He said it.

 

Praying abundantly above everything you could ask or think happens for you as well.

"redeem my daughter's death" to me meant that, like Job, I would gain back double (not necessarily literally meaning I would get two kids for every one that died). In the sense that I could say, yes, losing lydia was tragic, but had that not happened, we would not have _______________. For example, there are baby girls being pretty much discarded. Had such a child or children come into our lives, that would seem like a redemption - my much-wanted daughter was lost, but we were able to pour that love into another little girl who was otherwise unwanted, "lost." At the very minimum, to me it meant raising more than three kids, because that was what I originally planned for my life before I ever got the misguided notion that perhaps God wanted us to raise more than three standard kids.

 

What is more, there have been plenty of "teasers" that I interpreted as God telling me not to give up hope. Friends who have had babies, or adopted, in very improbable circumstances. So, you ask why the time limit? I am 43; dh is 51. It becomes less and less practical every passing day. I partly don't want that anymore, but not because I am at peace or satisfied; rather, because I am resigned. That window is basically closed, even if it isn't yet glued shut. It was not psychologically healthy for me to continue wanting something that was unlikely to happen and becoming increasingly impractical. "Hope deferred makes the heart sick," from Proverbs. Indeed it does.

 

Thank you for your kind and sensitive dialogue.

[TranquilMind]

"redeem my daughter's death" to me meant that, like Job, I would gain back double (not necessarily literally meaning I would get two kids for every one that died). In the sense that I could say, yes, losing lydia was tragic, but had that not happened, we would not have _______________. For example, there are baby girls being pretty much discarded. Had such a child or children come into our lives, that would seem like a redemption - my much-wanted daughter was lost, but we were able to pour that love into another little girl who was otherwise unwanted, "lost." At the very minimum, to me it meant raising more than three kids, because that was what I originally planned for my life before I ever got the misguided notion that perhaps God wanted us to raise more than three standard kids.

 

What is more, there have been plenty of "teasers" that I interpreted as God telling me not to give up hope. Friends who have had babies, or adopted, in very improbable circumstances. So, you ask why the time limit? I am 43; dh is 51. It becomes less and less practical every passing day. I partly don't want that anymore, but not because I am at peace or satisfied; rather, because I am resigned. That window is basically closed, even if it isn't yet glued shut. It was not psychologically healthy for me to continue wanting something that was unlikely to happen and becoming increasingly impractical. "Hope deferred makes the heart sick," from Proverbs. Indeed it does.

 

Thank you for your kind and sensitive dialogue.

Smiling, as I can't help thinking that as soon as your window is glued shut and you are totally at peace with the status quo of children

....some child is going to show up in your life in one way or another.  I can't tell you how many times I have seen that happen. 

Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, BUT a desire fulfilled is a tree of life. 

 

You can't leave the rest off.

 

Again, it's not over until it's over. 

Believing the best for you in all ways...

 

[albeto.]

Smiling, as I can't help thinking that as soon as your window is glued shut and you are totally at peace with the status quo of children

....some child is going to show up in your life in one way or another.  I can't tell you how many times I have seen that happen. 

 

That's just vague enough to be inevitable. That's actually something about people who consider themselves "real Christians" that is obvious to me now but wasn't when I considered myself one, too: vague, generalizations could be applied and then forgotten or used as "proof" as convenient. Replies to Quill's explanation are full of examples of this.  I think it's why it's so easy for one to consider themselves a "real Christian" even when people who hold completely different beliefs make the same claim. These ideas, these expectations are so darn vague they could apply conveniently anywhere, or be forgotten/dismissed equally as conveniently. They're like the Christian verbal charm equivalent to Chinese fortune cookies. 

[TranquilMind]

That's just vague enough to be inevitable. That's actually something about people who consider themselves "real Christians" that is obvious to me now but wasn't when I considered myself one, too: vague, generalizations could be applied and then forgotten or used as "proof" as convenient. Replies to Quill's explanation are full of examples of this.  I think it's why it's so easy for one to consider themselves a "real Christian" even when people who hold completely different beliefs make the same claim. These ideas, these expectations are so darn vague they could apply conveniently anywhere, or be forgotten/dismissed equally as conveniently. They're like the Christian verbal charm equivalent to Chinese fortune cookies. 

Ok, albeto.

 

Fortune teller I am not, nor am I interested in that. 

Just sayin'

 

I've seen it happen at least 5 times, which means nothing except....I've seen it happen.  It isn't out of the realm of the possible, nor is it guaranteed.  

 

Your beliefs are just as conveniently applied, or forgotten, or explainable as any Christian's beliefs, by the way.   

[Guest]

Smiling, as I can't help thinking that as soon as your window is glued shut and you are totally at peace with the status quo of children

....some child is going to show up in your life in one way or another. I can't tell you how many times I have seen that happen.

Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, BUT a desire fulfilled is a tree of life.

 

You can't leave the rest off.

 

Again, it's not over until it's over.

Believing the best for you in all ways...

 

I did think that often, but watched as it happened to a dozen other people.

 

Of course, anything is possible. But it is better for me not to put any further hope on the line. My tree of life shriveled up and died.

 

If it does happen, I will be sure to tell you...if I don't have Alzheimer's by then.

 

I will graciously accept the blessings you offer, though. I'm cynical, but not stupid.

[livetoread]

I was on an infertility board for awhile. There was a woman on there who was in her early 40s and had never conceived. She was a firm believer and was both kind and well- loved.

 

Lo and behold, she got pregnant. Praises to God flowed. Then she went for an early ultrasound where a heartbeat was expected but not seen. Her doctor suggested a d&c, but she refused, telling us that she really thought God had other plans. She asked us all to pray and scheduled another ultrasound for the following week.

 

The night before her ultrasound her church held an all-night prayer vigil for her. People around the world were praying. She was calm and confident that God was going to pull off a miracle. We were glued to our screens and then she posted. Heartbeat! She said there wasn't a dry eye in the ultrasound room. We were beyond thrilled. Praises to God flowed even more. It was a miracle.

 

Two weeks later, she miscarried.

 

The utter cruelty of the entire episode left me gobsmacked. Of course now as an unbeliever I don't see it as cruel. I see it as awful and painful, but I don't have to try and explain some deity's role in it. It just sucks. That's all. There is nothing beyond a pregnancy that for whatever biological reason, didn't make it.

 

I'm so sorry Quill. The questions you raise are some of the toughest out there. My heart breaks for you and your precious baby. She has a beautiful name BTW.

[albeto.]

Ok, albeto.

 

Fortune teller I am not, nor am I interested in that. 

Just sayin'

 

Nevertheless, that's what you're offering.

 

I've seen it happen at least 5 times, which means nothing except....I've seen it happen.  It isn't out of the realm of the possible, nor is it guaranteed.

 

I think it means 5 times you've been aware of people who were looking forward to having children, have children. Have you kept count of the people like Quill, like a dear friend of mine, like women reading this, like me, who have been assured (through prayers, through scripture, through the assurance of friends with strong faith) who have not experienced "miraculous" conceptions? Have you kept count of other things you or people you know have been looking forward to and then getting? Like vacation time, or a raise, or the car not breaking down on the way to an important appointment?

 

When I wanted more kids, I saw "signs" everywhere. I interpreted them as messages from God, too. Even a lack of conception each month was understood to be a hidden message, only a different message than I expected. The same thing happened when someone I care about was diagnosed with diabetes. Things caught my attention that I had been completely ignorant of before. Suddenly there were articles on magazine covers at the grocery store. The doctor's office had diabetes support group info when I went for an unrelated reason. I noticed sugar free alternatives and found low carb recipes for things I never would have thought of.  I interpreted them as signs and messages from God, too. Eventually I realized these things had always been there. I just didn't have reason to pay attention before. I reasoned that if these coincidences were indeed messages (family, health, etc), they were virtually identical to coincidences that were not contrived to tell me something. In other words, a world with an active god manipulating the environment is indistinguishable from a world without such a god. Only, the world without such a god started making more sense. There's no stretching meanings, no ignoring things that don't fit the pattern, no waiting to see if my appeal was sincere enough / good for me / the will of God. Cause and effect explain things without imposing an invisible agent who behaves exactly like no invisible agent. 

 

Your beliefs are just as conveniently applied, or forgotten, or explainable as any Christian's beliefs, by the way.

 

Exactly. So why would a "real Christian" have no better rate of success than an atheist?

[calihil]

A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus Christ is God, paid for the penalty of sin on the cross, rose from the dead defeating death, is now reigning in heaven at the right hand of the Father, and will come again in the future. A Christian believes that Jesus Christ is the *only* way to heaven (John 14:6) and there is no other name by which we can be saved (Acts 4:12). A Christian *will* bear fruit in their lives because the Holy Spirit dwells within them and will never fall away from the faith (1 John 2:19). They may go through trials and temptations, and may even fall for a time, but God will always bring them back into the fold before death because they are part of God's elect and nobody or anything can pluck them from His hand. (Romans 8:38-39; John 10:1-21; 29) A Christian holds the Scriptures to be infallible and inerrant and divinely inspired and is relevant in all aspects of life. (2 Timothy 3:16) A Christian's desires, hopes, worldview, and attitude towards sin is entirely different after he or she is saved and he or she desires holiness. Maybe not every day, but it's the heart change over time that is apparent to the believer. A Christian does not endorse sinful behavior.

 

"I once was lost but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see...."

 

How do you *know* you are a true Christian? 1 John helps a lot with that. The Bible tells us to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5). Most, if not all, Christians have doubts from time to time, but they will never abandon the faith completely. If they do, they were not truly born again and were deceived. A seed that fell on rocky or thorny ground, never took root, and got blown away. (Matthew 13; Mark 4) I've known several people who play the Christian role, some for a long time, but eventually, they walked away. It's very sad and the Bible even suggests that for people like this, judgment will be even more severe because you tasted the truth, yet rejected it, which is much worse than someone who has never heard of Jesus at all. (2 Peter 2:21; Luke 12:47-48)

[SadieMarie]

Well, yeah, if one doesn't believe in God now, then there's nothing in their POV to walk toward, you're right. They've rejected the notion of God so they just go on living (hopefully in a kind, thoughtful way). If there IS a God, that will then be between Him and them when the times comes.

 

I really don't believe that religious belief or lack thereof predicts kindness or thoughtfulness.  

[Laurie4b]

It was the worse thing in the context I was working with at the time. Remember, I thought God was bringing this child into my life as a reward for trusting in him. I thought that God had changed my heart from someone who was absolutely not going to have more than three kids to someone who started to see it as good and desirable to have more than three kids. Only, as soon as I started to want that, I was no longer able to have a big family. So, that made me say, why mess with me, then? I did not want to conceive children, only to soon say goodbye to them. So don't have me conceive in the first place, then. SWIM?

 

FWIW, I don't think death is the ultimate evil. In fact, as Dumbledore says in Harry Potter, at the end of a life well-lived, one meets death like greeting an old friend. But a baby who dies on the day of her birth? Perfectly healthy, but for a faulty placenta? It makes no sense. It can only make sense if life is full of the random and the tragic. It makes no sense if life is overseen by a loving and all-powerful being.

 

:grouphug:  I cannot imagine the pain you experienced and still do when you think of her. What it sounds like you are saying that adds salt to the wound is that you felt "set up" and then betrayed and abandoned by God. :grouphug:

[TranquilMind]

Nevertheless, that's what you're offering.

 

I think it means 5 times you've been aware of people who were looking forward to having children, have children. Have you kept count of the people like Quill, like a dear friend of mine, like women reading this, like me, who have been assured (through prayers, through scripture, through the assurance of friends with strong faith) who have not experienced "miraculous" conceptions? Have you kept count of other things you or people you know have been looking forward to and then getting? Like vacation time, or a raise, or the car not breaking down on the way to an important appointment?

 

When I wanted more kids, I saw "signs" everywhere. I interpreted them as messages from God, too. Even a lack of conception each month was understood to be a hidden message, only a different message than I expected. The same thing happened when someone I care about was diagnosed with diabetes. Things caught my attention that I had been completely ignorant of before. Suddenly there were articles on magazine covers at the grocery store. The doctor's office had diabetes support group info when I went for an unrelated reason. I noticed sugar free alternatives and found low carb recipes for things I never would have thought of.  I interpreted them as signs and messages from God, too. Eventually I realized these things had always been there. I just didn't have reason to pay attention before. I reasoned that if these coincidences were indeed messages (family, health, etc), they were virtually identical to coincidences that were not contrived to tell me something. In other words, a world with an active god manipulating the environment is indistinguishable from a world without such a god. Only, the world without such a god started making more sense. There's no stretching meanings, no ignoring things that don't fit the pattern, no waiting to see if my appeal was sincere enough / good for me / the will of God. Cause and effect explain things without imposing an invisible agent who behaves exactly like no invisible agent. 

 

Exactly. So why would a "real Christian" have no better rate of success than an atheist?

Ok, Albeto.

 

There is really little point in discussing this particular issue with you in depth, because we always end up in the same place. According to you, your eyes have been "opened", while the rest of the poor saps who remain Christian are deluded fools who just haven't your rational intellect or seen your "light".   I've heard this refrain repeatedly since the Great Deconversion of TS, from all who fell by the wayside right after. 

 

I wanted more kids....and I had more kids, at 40 years old.  I could tell you what I found in God's Word, which I relayed to my husband, and he said, simply, "Ok, I guess we are having another baby!", but it wouldn't make any difference.  You will say that is coincidence that it happened for me and several I know. OK.  I'm just one person.  Maybe someone else got something else I didn't get...yet.  I don't know.  It's not over until it's over: I do know that.  I do know that the Lord is on the throne and everything He said I can take to the bank, so to speak, even if I don't always recognize it at the time. 

 

My kids sure are an expensive delusion.  ;)   

[Incognito]

I really don't believe that religious belief or lack thereof predicts kindness or thoughtfulness.  

 

I think you are missing her meaning.  She is saying that everyone would hopefully be kind and thoughtful, and that God as she believes in God may well be honored by a life well lived even if the person does not say the "right things" during life - but it is not for her to judge how God works.

 

albeto - I appreciate what you are saying about how people talk about God's provision.  I will venture to say that there are quite a few Christians who also find that kind of prayer and answer to seem a bit... like a genii.  However, just because people attribute specific actions to a deity doesn't mean that the deity doesn't exist - it just means that their understanding of the deity includes believing that said deity behaves in that way.  My mind is big enough to allow that God may well provide that sort of comfort to people who it is comforting to, but to also hold the idea that it doesn't fit with my understanding of how a God of the universe (and of the Bible) would likely choose to interact with the world.

[albeto.]

Ok, Albeto.

 

There is really little point in discussing this particular issue with you in depth, because we always end up in the same place. According to you, your eyes have been "opened", while the rest of the poor saps who remain Christian are deluded fools who just haven't your rational intellect or seen your "light".   I've heard this refrain repeatedly since the Great Deconversion of TS, from all who fell by the wayside right after.

 

In other words, if I say my eyes have been opened, then I must be wrong, but if you say your eyes have been opened you must be right? 

 

 I see it more like asking what opened your eyes, and then asking how.

 

I wanted more kids....and I had more kids, at 40 years old.  I could tell you what I found in God's Word, which I relayed to my husband, and he said, simply, "Ok, I guess we are having another baby!", but it wouldn't make any difference.  You will say that is coincidence that it happened for me and several I know. OK.  I'm just one person.  Maybe someone else got something else I didn't get...yet.  I don't know.  It's not over until it's over: I do know that.  I do know that the Lord is on the throne and everything He said I can take to the bank, so to speak, even if I don't always recognize it at the time.

 

 Perhaps you're confusing knowledge with belief. You can't know the lord is sitting on the throne any more than you can know when the lord gets up to stretch his legs, where in space the throne exists, how big it is, what materials it's made out of, or whether or not it's a literal or figurative throne. These are things that cannot be known by anyone. They can, however, be believed. I don't doubt your belief. The interesting thing here is that people who believe they know with the same conviction you do differ on what they believe. So who's right, you or milovany or DesertBlossom? Which one of you has the accurate knowledge about the "real Christian faith"? Is the "real Christian faith" the one that includes the "real presence of Christ" and the idea of a god who will hug and comfort you forever whether you want it or not, the one that includes the symbolic application of communion and a heaven consisting of eternal reward separate from the hell which is eternal punishment, or the one that includes becoming a god or goddess in your own right after this life? You're all sure you know, but when asked about source of knowledge, there is nothing to offer. In other words, you're all assuming you're right. Well, who is it? Who is right? 

 

My kids sure are an expensive delusion.  ;)

 

Because pointing out a coincidence is the same to you as suggesting your children don't actually exist? I'm pointing out that the rate at which people who share your beliefs get what they want is the same as people who don't share your belief. If there was something to your claim, we wouldn't have to rely on your word, and we wouldn't have to rationalize the lack of evidence with an additional condition about it not being over until it's over (whatever that means). We wouldn't have to trust anyone's assurances. We could see for ourselves. The "missing piece" someone is likely thinking of here is that only those who walk in righteousness can see, etc etc, but that gets back to how does one know they are among the righteous [ie, a "real Christian"]? 

[TranquilMind]

In other words, if I say my eyes have been opened, then I must be wrong, but if you say your eyes have been opened you must be right? 

 

 I see it more like asking what opened your eyes, and then asking how.

 

 

 Perhaps you're confusing knowledge with belief. You can't know the lord is sitting on the throne any more than you can know when the lord gets up to stretch his legs, where in space the throne exists, how big it is, what materials it's made out of, or whether or not it's a literal or figurative throne. These are things that cannot be known by anyone. They can, however, be believed. I don't doubt your belief. The interesting thing here is that people who believe they know with the same conviction you do differ on what they believe. So who's right, you or milovany or DesertBlossom? Which one of you has the accurate knowledge about the "real Christian faith"? Is the "real Christian faith" the one that includes the "real presence of Christ" and the idea of a god who will hug and comfort you forever whether you want it or not, the one that includes the symbolic application of communion and a heaven consisting of eternal reward separate from the hell which is eternal punishment, or the one that includes becoming a god or goddess in your own right after this life? You're all sure you know, but when asked about source of knowledge, there is nothing to offer. In other words, you're all assuming you're right. Well, who is it? Who is right? 

 

 

Because pointing out a coincidence is the same to you as suggesting your children don't actually exist? I'm pointing out that the rate at which people who share your beliefs get what they want is the same as people who don't share your belief. If there was something to your claim, we wouldn't have to rely on your word, and we wouldn't have to rationalize the lack of evidence with an additional condition about it not being over until it's over (whatever that means). We wouldn't have to trust anyone's assurances. We could see for ourselves. The "missing piece" someone is likely thinking of here is that only those who walk in righteousness can see, etc etc, but that gets back to how does one know they are among the righteous [ie, a "real Christian"]? 

I'm right.  ;)

 

Well, at least I'm likely closer to finding out how right I am, given that I'm probably older than the others.  I'd report back to you when it is verified, but alas, that isn't possible, intentionally.  You are on your own to find the truth, as we all are.  I do plan to stick around as long as possible though. My kids need me, whether they know it right now, as teens, or not. 

 

I'm staking eternity on this truth, so I do have a vested interest in knowing as much as I can know, at this point.  But spiritual knowledge isn't like anything else.  You believe, pursue,  and then you see, unlike everything else where you see and then believe. 

 

But that's where I get off this merry-go-round.  You will find what you decide you will find. 

[Guest]

:grouphug: I cannot imagine the pain you experienced and still do when you think of her. What it sounds like you are saying that adds salt to the wound is that you felt "set up" and then betrayed and abandoned by God. :grouphug:

Thank you for you kindness. Yes, exactly. I felt like the victim of a cruel trick.

[Guest]

Albeto, you are a bit of a faucet that needs a washer. I say that with the nicest intentions. I do agree with more than a few of the conclusions you have drawn, but I don't mind folks who have no doubt in God. I'm a little jealous, in a way. I was certainly happiest when I thought God had my back. For my part, I am not an anti-theist, and so have no interest in trying to lead someone to deconversion. TM asked some questions, she said she was "curious" how the loss of belief can happen. That is why I gave her a part of my story, so she might (and others might) better understand loss of faith.

[Guest]

I refuse to believe in the needlework analogy, that it's a mess at the back, where we can only see, but God's plan is perfect on the front.

 

A perfect plan that involves any of the atrocities that happens in our world on a daily basis ? What kind of terrible perfection is that ?

Yeah, I feel the same. It also bothers me, because if seems like there is no solid definition of what "good" is. Do we have any other relationships in which we can't judge interactions at face value? Sometimes Christians clinging to God in the face of senseless tragedy remind me of battered women. Just as an abused woman might rationalize her mate's behavior by saying, "it's really only when he drinks too much," or "he only hollers and cusses at me; I don't think he will actually hit me," that is what it sounds like to me when folks defend or try to re-interpret what (they believe) God does that is not apparently good. Moreover, I can't help but notice people still "praise God" when they get what the want, what they objectively deem good. And they still pray for deliverance from what they deem bad. On any given day, this board has several requests for prayers and well-wishes; of course, because it is objectively bad when a child has cancer, or needs complex surgery or when parents are dying or jobs are lost. So clearly, we still want God to do what we think will be good for us.

 

Anyway, I feel jumbled today, so that might not be the most lucid post ever created.

[Chris in VA]

((Quill))

 

Edited to send as pm instead.

[Carol in Cal.]

Quill,

I'm sorry.

 

I'm sorry.  

 

I'm sorry.

 

What a difficult time you have had, and it's bad, really bad.  I have secondary infertility, never resolved.  Lots of miscarriages.  I do know how bad it can be, and yet, not as bad as your situation.  

 

I have a different POV on how this relates to Christianity on this than some--more of a historic Church POV.  I think that sinfulness ( not someone's specific sin, but sinfulness in general) causes all the sickness and pain and death in the world, and that it does not come from God nor is it His perfect will.  I also think that He does not impose His will on us, but that at times He intervenes, but that we should neither expect this (although we should pray for it) nor believe that He sends the bad stuff.

 

I look in the Bible, and I see the story of Stephen, the first martyr.  What a horrible death!  Being stoned, it must take forever to die.  Torture.  

Paul, stoned, beaten, left for dead, mobbed--and beyond the Bible, history says that he was killed.  Martyred.

And then there is a great deal of history of other martyrdoms in the early church, and great difficulties.  These are normal to our sinful world.

I believe that God redeems these by redeeming US.  He reveals Himself to us.  A PP advocated telling Him exactly how upset you are, and I agree with that.  He is God.  He can take it.

 

What I think you might find, if I may be so bold, is that you have believed in a promise that He never made, that was misrepresented to you.  I know that there are times, many of them, when people believe 'for a miracle' and it happens.  However, there are also many times when they believe that way and it doesn't.  What really counts in the end is believing.  Not believing for a miracle, but believeing itself; loving God and focussing on Him, and walking humbly with Him through life, the ups and downs, receiving His love in the ways that He sends it, not always in the ways that we want it.

 

The prosperity gospel is a lie.  But God is Truth.

[Love]

.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Love

[Guest]

What I think you might find, if I may be so bold, is that you have believed in a promise that He never made, that was misrepresented to you. I know that there are times, many of them, when people believe 'for a miracle' and it happens. However, there are also many times when they believe that way and it doesn't. What really counts in the end is believing. Not believing for a miracle, but believeing itself; loving God and focussing on Him, and walking humbly with Him through life, the ups and downs, receiving His love in the ways that He sends it, not always in the ways that we want it.

 

Thank you, first of all, for your kind reply. WRT believing a promise never made, my thoughts on that is that, if I was wrong in thinking God was leading me to trust him with family size, then nobody can be sure of what God is leading them to do. (Or, as I have concluded, he does no such thing.) So, for example, I was taught that we can know we are following God's will in part by having "confirmation" in the most surprising ways and places. The way I came to believe this was beyond remarkable. A Catholic friend-of-a-friend gave my friend, "M," a tape by The Mary Foundation, which had the tantalizing title of "The Secret to Happy Families." My friend never listened to the tape. It sat in a drawer for a few years, during which the woman who gave her the tape moved to another area of the country. One day, while decluttering, my friend came across the tape and stuck it in a give-away bag destined for a thrift store. There were some homeschool materials in the bad, too, so she thought I might find something of use in it and gave it to me. I saw the intriguing tape, but stuck it in a drawer and also forgot about it for a few years. During those years the tape sat in my drawer, my mind was changing a bit about family size. I grew up in a bigger family and initially did not want to repeat that at ALL. But some things happened that opened my mind a fraction.

 

So, then one day, I was decluttering drawers and came across the tape. I figured I would pop it in while I cleaned. I ended up listening to it, riveted. It was a tape against the use of artificial birth control and openness to life. Not only did the tape itself really give me something to think about, but I was struck, forcefully, by the improbability that the tape would have made it to me without divine intervention. Had the friend who gave it to me listened to it, she probably would have *burned* it! And if I had listened to it years earlier, *I* might have burned it! It still trips me out a little to think about how strangely that idea made its way into my life.

 

Anyway, all that to say - sure, I may not have been promised anything, I may have been completely deluded to think I was going in a direction God was leading. But if that is so, then nobody can be reasonably assured they are doing God's will.

[6packofun]

I have a question about how a person can know if they THEMSELVES are a real Christian.

 

I thought for years that I was a Real Christian. I believed in Biblical Inerrancy. I believed that repentance and trusting in Jesus Christ and his death was the only way to be saved. I believed that other "Christians" who didn't really believe the Bible and believed in other way to Heaven were false Christians. I believed I was born again. I evangelized in several countries, believing I was led by the Spirit of God to share His gospel with those who didn't believe. I was born again when I was 14. I was not from a Christian family, and I believed and followed Christ for 20 years.

 

For those years, I was certain I was one of the Real Christians. I bore the fruit. I saw many of my friends turn to Christ!  I also didn't believe that anyone who was a true Christian--like me--could ever truly fall away, and I believed that anyone who fell away was never a True Christian.

 

So, now, I'm an atheist.

 

Here's my question, if I wasn't a True Christian, can anyone know if they are a True Christian?  How was I supposed to know that? Only now that I don't believe anymore?

 

If that's the case, how can never know that they are a True Christian, until they are on their death bed, and you can see whether you still believe or not at the final moment of earthly life?

 

Any Real Christians who want to answer this, I really want to hear your answers.

 

Perhaps you are not really an atheist.  :) 

 

I believe that there are true believers who are so hurt by churches, other Christians, and/or just no longer want to *choose* sacrifice or want to address their questions/doubts, that they "fall away".  Some choose a more works-based denomination/religion because it feels more "knowable".  But God knows their hearts, not me, and He knows why they resist their true belief.

 

[Guest]

I know you have probably heard it all, but I just wanted to say that the reason things like that happen is because the evil one is the ruler of this world. God is here for you, for me, for all of us. And sometimes it is in the worst times that we are able to draw closest to Him. Please don't give up on Him.

 

Thank you for your care. Yes, I have heard that explanation before, but it is not compelling to me. For starters, I don't believe the story of The Fall any more than I believe evil entered Narnia because Jadis followed Diggory with the magic rings. My reasons for disbelieving this are many, but complex and I would rather not detail them. I'm sure I've already offended folks with my cynicism.

 

As an aside, I don't know how people can "draw close" to God. You can't see him, hear him, or have him wrap his arms around you, though people speak as if they can. I don't know. I have had some profound experiences of love and/or peace, but I can't say that is "God." A buddhist would call that Nirvana. People achieve these great experiences in different ways, so it seems myopic to think there's only one Giver who distributes these experiences by his own decision.

[TranquilMind]

Albeto, you are a bit of a faucet that needs a washer. I say that with the nicest intentions. I do agree with more than a few of the conclusions you have drawn, but I don't mind folks who have no doubt in God. I'm a little jealous, in a way. I was certainly happiest when I thought God had my back. For my part, I am not an anti-theist, and so have no interest in trying to lead someone to deconversion. TM asked some questions, she said she was "curious" how the loss of belief can happen. That is why I gave her a part of my story, so she might (and others might) better understand loss of faith.

And I appreciate that!  Thank you for sharing that. It does help me understand that perspective a bit better than I did.  :)

[TranquilMind]

Thank you, first of all, for your kind reply. WRT believing a promise never made, my thoughts on that is that, if I was wrong in thinking God was leading me to trust him with family size, then nobody can be sure of what God is leading them to do. (Or, as I have concluded, he does no such thing.) So, for example, I was taught that we can know we are following God's will in part by having "confirmation" in the most surprising ways and places. The way I came to believe this was beyond remarkable. A Catholic friend-of-a-friend gave my friend, "M," a tape by The Mary Foundation, which had the tantalizing title of "The Secret to Happy Families." My friend never listened to the tape. It sat in a drawer for a few years, during which the woman who gave her the tape moved to another area of the country. One day, while decluttering, my friend came across the tape and stuck it in a give-away bag destined for a thrift store. There were some homeschool materials in the bad, too, so she thought I might find something of use in it and gave it to me. I saw the intriguing tape, but stuck it in a drawer and also forgot about it for a few years. During those years the tape sat in my drawer, my mind was changing a bit about family size. I grew up in a bigger family and initially did not want to repeat that at ALL. But some things happened that opened my mind a fraction.

 

So, then one day, I was decluttering drawers and came across the tape. I figured I would pop it in while I cleaned. I ended up listening to it, riveted. It was a tape against the use of artificial birth control and openness to life. Not only did the tape itself really give me something to think about, but I was struck, forcefully, by the improbability that the tape would have made it to me without divine intervention. Had the friend who gave it to me listened to it, she probably would have *burned* it! And if I had listened to it years earlier, *I* might have burned it! It still trips me out a little to think about how strangely that idea made its way into my life.

 

Anyway, all that to say - sure, I may not have been promised anything, I may have been completely deluded to think I was going in a direction God was leading. But if that is so, then nobody can be reasonably assured they are doing God's will.

 I don't think that "no one can be sure of what God is leading them to do".  I think that we, being human, fallible, and biased, sometimes miss it, and mostly hit it, if we are earnestly trying to follow his direction.  It sounds like you did indeed follow His direction!  Maybe those ideas weren't wrong.  Maybe they have already been fulfilled in you and/or maybe this information is for someone whose ear you will have in the future.  I don't know, but I would not rule it out. 

 

I think God sees us in some sense like we see our toddlers.  They really ARE trying to do what they know to do and when they are successful, we cheer and make a big deal of it.  When they miss it - and they will, because they don't see the whole picture as well as we do -  we just say that it is ok, that they will soon be able to do this thing or understand this thing.  We know that the toddler stage isn't the end of their understanding, and God knows that about us too.  It's not over until it's over.     

[Ipsey]

Perhaps you are not really an atheist.  :)

 

I believe that there are true believers who are so hurt by churches, other Christians, and/or just no longer want to *choose* sacrifice or want to address their questions/doubts, that they "fall away".  Some choose a more works-based denomination/religion because it feels more "knowable".  But God knows their hearts, not me, and He knows why they resist their true belief.

 

 

Well, that's another possibility, I suppose.

 

But, I'm pretty sure I'm an atheist.

 

Do you believe in Anubis? Are you sure? Well, then, I believe you. You really don't believe in Anubis, then. I don't either! :D  

 

We'd probably agree that we don't believe in many hundreds of gods throughout history and only disagree on one.  I really don't believe in that one any more than I believe in Utu.  

 

I addressed my doubts and questions, that's how I realized that there was no more reason to believe in the Biblical god and Jesus than any other god.  I wasn't afraid of my doubts and questions. I believed that God was true and that he held me in the palm of His hand and that no one having come unto Him would He cast out. For if Christ had sacrificed himself for me while I was a sinner and His enemy, how much more did he protect and care for me as His child? I was not afraid of the Truth. I already had it.

 

So I thought. :)

 

What "sacrifices" do you think I could have been making as a Christian that I'm not making now? Or, that I was running from, causing me to stop believing? I'm still the giving, sharing, caring person that I was while I was a Christian, and I've seen that many non-believers are so as well. Furthermore, I still abstain from many things that I think are harmful to me and other people. I'm quite a conservative, abstaining person by most standards. I think what some Christians believe is "sacrifice" is what non religious people call being "compassionate" or "decent human beings."

 

 

[JenniferB]

I am standing alongside one of the most pious (don't read that with snark; read it with this definition: Sincerely in love with God; devoted in attention to prayer and presence before God;

Lord have mercy on her and another I'm thinking of with unutterable difficulties as well.