Tips on considering colleges?

[Danestress]

I have two rising juniors who have two very different ideas about what kinds of colleges to look at.  One is an athlete (and a very good student) and is applying to the military academies but needs some "plan B" options.  Some of this will be driven by his sport and the coaches that are interested in him.  But I want him to apply to at least two colleges that he thinks he would be happy to attend if he were not going to play his sport or were injured and could not be recruited on the basis of that.

 

The other kid is very strong academically, tests very well, believes he wants to major in chemistry, and is a musician.  They probably will end up in very different kinds of schools, which just means we have more to look at and consider.

 

Yesterday I got a "guide" book as  reference for colleges.  It's just a way to get ideas about where to visit this year, have some information about the relative academic strengths of schools, see what the range of admissions standards is for that school, etc - ie a screening device.

 

But I wondered if anyone can give me so basic things to keep in mind when looking at the information.  For example, when looking at the average SAT scores of new Freshman, how do you know whether that number is fairly accurate or is badly skewed by the admission of kids with lower scores  who were recruited for sports or because of some special quality they bring to the school?

 

When you see that only 62% of Freshman graduated within 6 years, how do you know if that is because the school is badly run, an unhappy place, etc, or if it's because a lot of students are adults who are on the slower track or who drop out because of work or family obligations?

 

How did you use a guide like this, and what things did you find surprised you when you went from the "screening" process and actually visited or talked to admissions? 

 

 

 

 

[Lori D.]

All ears, as I'd like to learn how to decipher the meaning behind those statistics, too. :)

 

 

Not a direct answer to your question, but while you're waiting for all the great responses I know are going to come in on this question, some helpful different ways of sorting through colleges in these past threads, all linked in post #5 (plus more on this same topic of choosing a college), in the big pinned thread: "Transcripts… College Prep/Applications… past threads linked here!"

 

Where do we start with choosing a college?

Which college would you choose

How do you "check out a college"?

Wearing the counselor hat: how to help your students find the right fit

How to determine a good college fit?

Discussing college fit

[Michelle My Bell]

No strong advice, but I love this tool: https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/compare-colleges

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I have two rising juniors who have two very different ideas about what kinds of colleges to look at. One is an athlete (and a very good student) and is applying to the military academies but needs some "plan B" options. Some of this will be driven by his sport and the coaches that are interested in him. But I want him to apply to at least two colleges that he thinks he would be happy to attend if he were not going to play his sport or were injured and could not be recruited on the basis of that.

 

The other kid is very strong academically, tests very well, believes he wants to major in chemistry, and is a musician. They probably will end up in very different kinds of schools, which just means we have more to look at and consider.

 

Yesterday I got a "guide" book as reference for colleges. It's just a way to get ideas about where to visit this year, have some information about the relative academic strengths of schools, see what the range of admissions standards is for that school, etc - ie a screening device.

 

But I wondered if anyone can give me so basic things to keep in mind when looking at the information. For example, when looking at the average SAT scores of new Freshman, how do you know whether that number is fairly accurate or is badly skewed by the admission of kids with lower scores who were recruited for sports or because of some special quality they bring to the school?

 

When you see that only 62% of Freshman graduated within 6 years, how do you know if that is because the school is badly run, an unhappy place, etc, or if it's because a lot of students are adults who are on the slower track or who drop out because of work or family obligations?

 

How did you use a guide like this, and what things did you find surprised you when you went from the "screening" process and actually visited or talked to admissions?

If he is applying to academies, is he also applying for college ROTC scholarships from the same service? That is a scholarship used at civilian schools that have ROTC units. You can see the schools for Navy ROTC at NROTC.navy.mil

That would give you a smaller but still varies list of schoolers to consider.

 

On the graduation rate, I would compare with the national average, which is something around 57%. There are lots of reasons not to graduate. Some indicate school issues but others represent issues with the students. I would also look at the percent of returning sophomores.

[Jenny in Florida]

Two sites we found very helpful for my son:

 

www.parchment.com

 

www.collegedata.com

 

Both have graphs that show how your student's stats compare to those of other actual applicants who were accepted or rejected at particular schools. Parchment also lets you link to the profiles of other students so that you can see some information about their extracurriculars and such.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On graduation rates from IPEDS  

 

Question:
What are the graduation rates for students obtaining a bachelor's degree?

 

Edited out the response from the link above.

 

Also, looking at the above explanation, I'm reminded that the 6 year rate goes back 6 years (and is also a couple years old just for data collection time).  In the middle of this cohort's time in college, the housing crisis hit full force.  Families who were funding college out of home equity or investments may have lost a lot of value.  Parents may have lost jobs and been unable to continue paying tuition bills.  So I think it's worth using this number as a relative, not absolute measure.  Do they have a better or worse graduation rate than other similar colleges?  Do they have an better or worse rate than other schools your kid might attend?

[Danestress]

If he is applying to academies, is he also applying for college ROTC scholarships from the same service? That is a scholarship used at civilian schools that have ROTC units. You can see the schools for Navy ROTC at NROTC.navy.mil

That would give you a smaller but still varies list of schoolers to consider.

 

.

Probably not because I think playng a demanding sport in college and participating in ROTC both would probably be too much of a time drain at a rigorous academic school. I know it can be done, but I have mixed emotions about college athletics to start with, and would dissuade him from adding another huge commitment. Ultimately it's his choice, of course, but he hasn't actually mentioned ROTC.

[In The Great White North]

If he is applying to the academies, it's nice to have back-up schools that return your deposit late:  

 

Texas A&M will return your deposit and room deposit in late July, if you tell them the student is attending an academy.  

 

HIllsdale told ds they would hold his place for a year, in case he changed his mind.

 

This is especially important if he goes to USAFA, because they will recycle him if he gets hurt in BCT, and expect him to attend another college for the year before returning next summer.  

[G5052]

Two sites we found very helpful for my son:

 

www.parchment.com

 

www.collegedata.com

 

Both have graphs that show how your student's stats compare to those of other actual applicants who were accepted or rejected at particular schools. Parchment also lets you link to the profiles of other students so that you can see some information about their extracurriculars and such.

 

Yes, both very useful.

 

I'd also suggest that you work out what is reasonable for your family to contribute before you really start digging into the details and getting emotionally involved with potential choices.  You also need to weigh whether you are OK with loans or not.

 

Not in everyone's case, but finances had to come first before we began looking.  What I thought I would have to work with at this point is unavailable (multiple lawyers involved), and we had scale back our dreams.  We're still going to do a few "reach" schools that will have to provide significant merit aid, but have backups planned as well that we can afford without merit aid.

 

Most of our friends looked and then considered the finances, and it has been tougher to work out than beginning with some rough numbers in mind.

[Hoggirl]

For test scores - google the name of the school you are interested followed by the words, "Common Data Set." Section C has much pertinent information and will give you a 25th - 75th percentile range on scores by subsection of the SAT and sometimes of the ACT (sometimes schools only give a score range on the composite). Good indicator of where you are "in the pack" with scores. You can also see how many men v. women applied and were accepted.

[creekland]

 For example, when looking at the average SAT scores of new Freshman, how do you know whether that number is fairly accurate or is badly skewed by the admission of kids with lower scores  who were recruited for sports or because of some special quality they bring to the school?

 

When you see that only 62% of Freshman graduated within 6 years, how do you know if that is because the school is badly run, an unhappy place, etc, or if it's because a lot of students are adults who are on the slower track or who drop out because of work or family obligations?

 

How did you use a guide like this, and what things did you find surprised you when you went from the "screening" process and actually visited or talked to admissions? 

 

General rule of thumb is to expect the bottom 25% of stats had some sort of hook - whether athletics, a home state of North Dakota, an Olympic medal, or something similar.  NOTE:  It does NOT mean everyone with those (or other) hooks got the low scores.  It's just a rule of thumb.

 

Graduation rate really isn't necessarily something you want to be too high.  When it is too high, it tends to be like high school and schools will go through great lengths to be sure their little darlings don't fail out - sometimes when they should.  Several "easy" majors are created and those who are failing are sent to them...  As long as a graduation rate is around normal, the school should be decent for the studious student.

 

Visits can show the vibe of the school - preppy? party? collaborative? cut throat? commuter? tons of activities? happy students? super urban? super rural?  Many kids really do get a "feel" of this is them (or not) when they visit a school.  It may not happen at the first school.  It can take several comparisons to know what one is feeling.

 

Beware of being lured by free t-shirts, tons of mailings, phone calls, or other "sales" pitches.  Some schools will roll out the red carpet to visitors as it really does sway many to feel "wanted."  It doesn't mean that same red carpet will be there once you start paying the bills, nor does it mean the courses are great, etc.  Be sure the school checks out on paper as well as with the visit.

[Teachin'Mine]

General rule of thumb is to expect the bottom 25% of stats had some sort of hook - whether athletics, a home state of North Dakota, an Olympic medal, or something similar.  NOTE:  It does NOT mean everyone with those (or other) hooks got the low scores.  It's just a rule of thumb.

 

Graduation rate really isn't necessarily something you want to be too high.  When it is too high, it tends to be like high school and schools will go through great lengths to be sure their little darlings don't fail out - sometimes when they should.  Several "easy" majors are created and those who are failing are sent to them...  As long as a graduation rate is around normal, the school should be decent for the studious student.

 

Visits can show the vibe of the school - preppy? party? collaborative? cut throat? commuter? tons of activities? happy students? super urban? super rural?  Many kids really do get a "feel" of this is them (or not) when they visit a school.  It may not happen at the first school.  It can take several comparisons to know what one is feeling.

 

Beware of being lured by free t-shirts, tons of mailings, phone calls, or other "sales" pitches.  Some schools will roll out the red carpet to visitors as it really does sway many to feel "wanted."  It doesn't mean that same red carpet will be there once you start paying the bills, nor does it mean the courses are great, etc.  Be sure the school checks out on paper as well as with the visit.

 

I agree with you on the other points, but I'm curious about being wary of a high graduation rate.  Could you name a few colleges with high graduation rates which meet this criteria?  In all our searching, we've always found the highest graduation rates at the most highly selective colleges.  That's not to say that a college which has a lower graduation rate should be avoided as it stands to reason that if the percent admitted is higher, then it will be more likely that a higher percentage won't graduate for a variety of reasons.  As I mentioned in another thread, the thing I would be wary of is a school with a much lower graduation rate than that of its academic peers.  I would want to know the reason.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Probably not because I think playng a demanding sport in college and participating in ROTC both would probably be too much of a time drain at a rigorous academic school. I know it can be done, but I have mixed emotions about college athletics to start with, and would dissuade him from adding another huge commitment. Ultimately it's his choice, of course, but he hasn't actually mentioned ROTC.

 

Yes, it would be hard to juggle rigorous academics, a varsity sport and ROTC.

 

Another perspective is that an ROTC unit might provide a lot of the team identification and physical and mental challenges that he has enjoyed in sports.  If he's not sure that he will want to continue to compete at varsity levels in college, then ROTC might be a good choice.

 

And it is another pathway to a military commission.  There are roughly as many officers commissioned through ROTC as through the academies. 

 

I tend to harp on ROTC a bit, because I encounter so many students who are very interested in service academies, but who haven't applied to ROTC at all.  ROTC isn't easier to get a scholarship to (might have been a long time in the past, but that hasn't been the case for many years now).  It is a solid merit scholarship, especially for students interested in technical (engineering, math and science) majors.  When I meet any student who is interested in applying for academies, I try to get them to also investigate ROTC. 

 

I think that ROTC doesn't do a good job of getting the word out about the program. I also think there is an unfortunate association in many people's minds between college ROTC and high school Junior ROTC programs.  The two programs really have very little to do with each other, other than the acronym.  Prior participation in JROTC is not required for college ROTC. 

 

Also ROTC at a school with a full Corps of Cadets like VA Tech or Texas A&M is quite different from ROTC as a more typical civilian school like University of Washington or Miami University.  In the later case there are drills during the week and course requirements, but not a dedicated corps dorms with daily uniform and drill requirements. 

[In The Great White North]

 

 

I tend to harp on ROTC a bit, because I encounter so many students who are very interested in service academies, but who haven't applied to ROTC at all.

 

I think this will increase, as long as ROTC is limiting scholarships to STEM majors.

 

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

Danestress, the best advice I could give would be to visit as many colleges as you can with a focus on variety.  These don't even necessarily need to be ones they'd actually like to attend, but just to get an idea of what appeals.  Go to universities, both state and private, large and small, liberal arts colleges, ones in the city, suburbs and rural, ones with large and small campuses, etc..  That would probably help you to narrow down what will interest them more, and of course visit the ones they'd actually like to attend.  I'm taking this advice from Creekland and passing it on as it's great advice.  As you have two looking, maybe you could ask each to keep some brief notes of their impressions after the visit.  The more you visit, the easier it is to confuse the different aspects of each and you'll be glad to have that as a reference.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think this will increase, as long as ROTC is limiting scholarships to STEM majors.

 

There is a mandate regarding the percentage of scholarships that go to STEM majors.  For the Navy it is around 85%.  I have personal disagreements with this emphasis on technical majors and neglect of humanities (including languages, history and regional studies) that go back to around 1989 when a senior officer declared at my alma mater that humanities majors were doomed to be "wallflowers in the ballroom of progress." 

 

 

But I meet few, if any students who tell me that they are not applying to ROTC because they are interested in a humanities major.  When I ask in interviews or in conversation if they are also considering ROTC, the answer tends to be: 1) No, I'm not in JROTC or No, my school doesn't have JROTC; or 2) What's that?

 

And even if ROTC scholarships are stacked against humanities majors, not applying doesn't make sense to me.  100% of students who don't apply for ROTC are not offered scholarships.

[ocelotmom]

Yes, it would be hard to juggle rigorous academics, a varsity sport and ROTC.

 

Another perspective is that an ROTC unit might provide a lot of the team identification and physical and mental challenges that he has enjoyed in sports.  If he's not sure that he will want to continue to compete at varsity levels in college, then ROTC might be a good choice.

 

And it is another pathway to a military commission.  There are roughly as many officers commissioned through ROTC as through the academies. 

 

Yes. ROTC strikes me as more practical in terms of long-term career goals than sports.

 

Another thing to consider is that you don't have to join ROTC as a freshman. You can start as long as you have at least two years of college remaining. If he does choose sports over ROTC, choosing a college with an ROTC program give him more options.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

And even if ROTC scholarships are stacked against humanities majors, not applying doesn't make sense to me.  100% of students who don't apply for ROTC are not offered scholarships.

 

It wasn't just "stacked against".  When dd was applying, you had to check a box for your major (which were all STEM or Arabic), or the program wouldn't let  you go any further in the application  (USAF ROTC).

[Danestress]

There is a mandate regarding the percentage of scholarships that go to STEM majors.  For the Navy it is around 85%.  I have personal disagreements with this emphasis on technical majors and neglect of humanities (including languages, history and regional studies) that go back to around 1989 when a senior officer declared at my alma mater that humanities majors were doomed to be "wallflowers in the ballroom of progress." 

 

 

.

 

How funny.  My DH was an English major at the USNA and he retired from the USMC, having had a good career.  I wonder if that is unusual  now. 

 

But in our 50s, I think many of us feel like we are wallflowers in the ballroom of progress.  I was a wallflower pretty much everywhere (and no worse for it, for the most part) but even he, who was a communications officer for years before the Corp sent him to school and he changed his MOS, can hardly program a universal remote.  I think, in our later years, we are all mostly doomed to be "wallflowers in the ballroom of progress!" 

[Danestress]

Yes. ROTC strikes me as more practical in terms of long-term career goals than sports.

 

Another thing to consider is that you don't have to join ROTC as a freshman. You can start as long as you have at least two years of college remaining. If he does choose sports over ROTC, choosing a college with an ROTC program give him more options.

 

Oh yeah.  There is, seriously, nothing practical about his sport long term.  But at this point, it's probably something that will make colleges consider him that otherwise might not have.  He a good student, truly.  And his test scores are good. His Dad was a career officer, and I think it's natural he sees the military as a desirable career path.  This makes my heart ache, but I can see he is really well suited for it.  Anyway, fair or not, he can probably get into some desirable colleges if he is going to play for them that he might not get into if he were just applying based on academics  We all know A students with good test scores who can't get into the college of their dreams or get merit based aid to attend their first choice.  So for him, at this point in his life, the sport probably is actually a practical consideration in the overall application process. If he goes to a civilian school and wants a military career, he can still pursue that. 

 

I appreciate you bringing this up though - it's something we can talk about and consider!

[Danestress]

 

 

Graduation rate really isn't necessarily something you want to be too high.  When it is too high, it tends to be like high school and schools will go through great lengths to be sure their little darlings don't fail out - sometimes when they should.  Several "easy" majors are created and those who are failing are sent to them...  As long as a graduation rate is around normal, the school should be decent for the studious student.

 

 

Very interesting. 

 

The reason  I was asking, just having sort of skimmed through the "guide to colleges" was that one school I tend to think would attract moderately strong students academically (Georgia Tech) had a shockingly low graduation rate, though at the moment, I am too lazy to go upstairs and find the book so I can share the exact figure.  But then I thought that, being basically in down town Atlanta, it perhaps has more adult enrollees.  Or perhaps the "non finishers" are not in the departments that would be Ga Tech's strengths (and this is just one example).  So of course if one is really interested in a school, one must go and ask these questions, but I knew you all would give me good thoughts as on this subject.

[Danestress]

Yes, both very useful.

 

I'd also suggest that you work out what is reasonable for your family to contribute before you really start digging into the details and getting emotionally involved with potential choices.  You also need to weigh whether you are OK with loans or not.

 

Not in everyone's case, but finances had to come first before we began looking.  What I thought I would have to work with at this point is unavailable (multiple lawyers involved), and we had scale back our dreams.  We're still going to do a few "reach" schools that will have to provide significant merit aid, but have backups planned as well that we can afford without merit aid.

 

Most of our friends looked and then considered the finances, and it has been tougher to work out than beginning with some rough numbers in mind.

 

Well, I have told my sons to look and apply, but to understand that when we make final decisions, finances will be a factor and  they might need to attend something that wasn't their first (or second) choice depending on the overall financial situation.  They are both pretty reasonable, logical people and have seemed to understand this.  Honestly, I don't want them to narrow their consideration by finances too much, because until we run the numbers and look at the actual aid offered, I am not sure they can do so with all the facts.  But we have an excellent university system and I will absolutely require them to apply to the top three public schools in our state, because you really can't beat that financially.

[Teachin'Mine]

Not Creekland, but US News shows the 4 year graduation rate at 34%.  Yikes!  But that's because it's heavily engineering and harder to get through in four years, and of course some students would want to change to a non-STEM major and need to transfer out.  On another site it shows the 4 year at 41% but it doubles to 82% in 6 years.   If the 6 year rate is accurate, that's pretty good for a tech university.  The freshman retention rate is listed as 94%/95% which is excellent. 

 

Taking more than 4 years to graduate may have a lot to do with Georgia too according to this blog article.

 

http://blogs.ajc.com/business-beat/2012/03/07/did-you-graduate-in-4-years-most-georgia-students-dont/

[ocelotmom]

His Dad was a career officer, and I think it's natural he sees the military as a desirable career path.  This makes my heart ache, but I can see he is really well suited for it.  

 

I can relate. DH is a veteran from a military family, and probably would have gone career if the smoke during the gulf war hadn't ruined his lungs. He's quite enthusiastic for DS to join the military (and probably the girls as well), and I think that, at this point, DS assumes that's what he will do. I can see the benefits, but the thought of my baby(ies) going off to war is just too much.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It wasn't just "stacked against". When dd was applying, you had to check a box for your major (which were all STEM or Arabic), or the program wouldn't let you go any further in the application (USAF ROTC).

Interesting. I don't think it is quite that extreme with Navy ROTC but I'll have to double check.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Oh yeah. There is, seriously, nothing practical about his sport long term. But at this point, it's probably something that will make colleges consider him that otherwise might not have. He a good student, truly. And his test scores are good. His Dad was a career officer, and I think it's natural he sees the military as a desirable career path. This makes my heart ache, but I can see he is really well suited for it. Anyway, fair or not, he can probably get into some desirable colleges if he is going to play for them that he might not get into if he were just applying based on academics We all know A students with good test scores who can't get into the college of their dreams or get merit based aid to attend their first choice. So for him, at this point in his life, the sport probably is actually a practical consideration in the overall application process. If he goes to a civilian school and wants a military career, he can still pursue that.

 

I appreciate you bringing this up though - it's something we can talk about and consider!

Depending on the service and specialty, commissions after graduation can be really competitive. Also I wouldn't count on getting a contract with only a couple years of ROTC, since he would be competing with non-scholarship students who had done earlier years (actually I'm not sure if Navy lets you join after sophomore year, but I'll have to doublecheck with my ROTC moms.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

How funny.  My DH was an English major at the USNA and he retired from the USMC, having had a good career.  I wonder if that is unusual  now. 

 

But in our 50s, I think many of us feel like we are wallflowers in the ballroom of progress.  I was a wallflower pretty much everywhere (and no worse for it, for the most part) but even he, who was a communications officer for years before the Corp sent him to school and he changed his MOS, can hardly program a universal remote.  I think, in our later years, we are all mostly doomed to be "wallflowers in the ballroom of progress!" 

 

I was also an English major from USNA.  My active duty jobs were all technical (engineering division officer and ASW Officer), but my captains did tell me I wrote great casualty reports on my broken boilers.

 

I think that the numbers coming out of ROTC have gotten stricter, because they are offering few scholarships unless you are declaring a group 2 or 3 major.  But the percentages out of USNA have been pretty stable.  There was a 70% group 2 or 3 requirement even when I was choosing a major in the 1980s.

 

I bet I just missed your dh.  But we could probably compare notes on professors.