Experience with not sounding out words?

[Yolanda]

Dd is 12 and can read fine and has good comprehension, but maybe a little lower than grade 6, not sure, but her spelling needs work. We've tried workbooks, AAS, making lists from misspelled words, and now we are on Spelling Power. We did it last year and I plan to continue with it. The reason I like it is it's short and to the point and no tears because of that.

 

I've read how reading lots and lots can/will help with spelling so I plan to make a concerted effort there. Although I really don't see that she makes the connection with her spelling words and when she reads them, or vice versa.

 

She misspelled these (theas) but I can't think of others right now. Oh, written was 'ritten' and write was 'right' but she said 'Oh, I know how to spell that' when I brought it to her attention. Oh and 'now'... : /   But then she can spell things like 'Thursday', 'Wednesday', color, people and to me those can be tricky. I don't know if the simple answer is because she uses them more frequently.

 

And the biggest thing that concerns me is she won't and/or can't sound out words. Is that a tell tale sign of something? Seems like I've read about that somewhere but can't put my finger on what it means. Yesterday she wanted me to spell 'form'. Now that seems pretty straight forward as far as sounds but she couldn't do it.

 

 

Can anyone shed light on what is the hold up and how to make progress? Unfortunately we didn't start with one curriculum and stick with it but have been zigzagging for the past 3 years. 

 

I've thought to use Sequential Spelling in conjunction with Spelling Power to see if the family of words works for her but I don't know if I would be driving us crazy.

 

Thanks so much if you've read this far!!! I sure could use some other POV's.

[Petrichor]

Reading frequently increases exposure to words even if the reader doesn't make the connections externally it really should help with spelling, at least with the more common words.

 

Maybe try sticking with a phonics based program, like Spalding?

[IsabelC]

Did she use a phonics based approach to learn reading? If she learned to read by herself, or was taught using a predominantly sight-word based method, then she may never have internalized the link between reading and spelling, even though she is quite good at reading. Some kids pick up on spelling patterns purely by reading, but some kids won't pick them up on those patterns (such as O-R making the or sound in form) unless they are explicitly taught.

 

She clearly has a good enough memory to be able to spell 'tricky' words such as Wednesday, but she will need some other strategies because nobody can memorize the spelling of all commonly used words. You can help her with a spelling curriculum or by yourself, but either way, you will probably need to teach her about common letter combinations and spelling rules. So if you decide to go with giving her spelling lists of things she has misspelled, you might like to try and determine why she spelled each word wrong, which is to say, what rule or pattern does she not know that has resulted in this error. You might find it's just a few rules that she needs to learn, or you might find she has no idea and is basing her writing on a combination of memorized words and guessing. If the latter is the case, you might even want to take her quickly through a phonics based reading program, if she hasn't done one before, as well as working specifically on spelling.

[Ellie]

Y'all might know that I will recommend Spalding. :-)

 

In fact, I would do *only* Spalding for the next few months--not grammar, not writing, not other kinds of spelling stuff, just Spalding.

[Yolanda]

If Spalding is all about memorizing rules, not sure that's going to do the trick. AAS was all rules and those didn't stick...after going through 3 volumes starting with vol. 1.

 

 

What do you think?

 

Oh, and she learned to read with 100 Easy Lessons.

[Yolanda]

Yeah, unfortunately I've heard that before with other children. It's starting to look like dd falls in the camp that it didn't really work for her.

 

So, if she needs to go with a phonics structure, and we know how AAS resulted, what specifically would you suggest? The more specific, the better. And if all phonics based curriculum are not equal, what should I look for and what to stay away from?

[Plink]

Does she actually know her phonics? If you gave her a flashcard of OLL, KN, or AE could she correctly identify the sounds? She might need basic remediation with a program like LiPS.

 

Oh, and tears don't necessarily mean that the program isn't for you. Tears often mean that you are challenging your kid beyond what they are comfortable with (even if they are whining that it is baby work). Learning is hard work. Try slowing down and repeating the very basics.

 

Have you researched Stealth Dyslexia? From what you have told us, it may describe your daughter's struggles.

[JanetC]

If you did three volumes of AAS without learning to sound out words, you didn't really do AAS.  You marched through the books, but you didn't teach the lessons to understanding. She's a "tough case" and you're maybe a bit too easy on her because you're her mom and don't like to see her cry.

 

Your story screams dyslexia or auditory processing issues to me.  You definitely need a good evaluation, and probably a tutor that specializes in these types of kids if you can afford one.  Here is a good website to browse, to see if anything "rings a bell" with you and your DD.  It really explains phonological processing deficits related to dyslexia.

 

http://dyslexia.yale.edu/teachers.html

 

 

[Cheryl in CA]

I would look at Apples and Pears.  I would also post on the Learning Challenges board.

[~Anna~]

My DD has made progress at sounding out words (and not just guessing or making something up) using the REWARDS program, followed by all 8 Megawords books.

[merry gardens]

I disagree that those misspelling show a phonics weakness.  All those words you gave as examples could be pronounced like the word she wanted. For example "ea" can make the long e sound, but that's not the one we use for "these".   "Wr" makes the /r/ sound and one must specifically remember which words use "wr" instead of "r".  "Write" and "right" are pronounced the same but different words.  She asked about spelling the word "form"--phonetically correct misspellings could be things like "fourm" or "phorm" and she didn't know so she asked. 

 

My son is dyslexic.  Now that his dyslexia has been mostly remediated and he reads above grade level, his dyslexia still shows up in his writing and spelling. His spelling mistakes are usually phonetically correct but still wrong nonetheless.

 

Are these misspellings common for her, or do they happen mostly when your daughter is pushing herself academically in other areas?  It may be that she's using her brain to compose whatever it is that she's composing and her spelling of commons words simply isn't automatic enough yet.  If that's the case, help her learn the spelling of common words.  And perhaps let her keep a dictionary or spell checker near her when she's writing or answer her question.    

 

Once people know phonics that does not automatically translate to good spelling because there are many ways to spell the same sounds in English. You may want to keep track of her misspelling and add them onto her weekly spelling tests.  Spelling tests can be created individually by going through lists of common words (both phonetic and sight words).  Quiz her on them and if it's not automatic, place the word on her spelling list.

[FairProspects]

When I say phonics weaknesses, I'm referring to applying spelling rules to the sounds. Learning the sounds can be enough for some kids, but my two students thus far have needed more work on spelling rules and families because they couldn't intuit which phonogram was making what sound in a given word - they'd just pick a random one that made that sound, not observing any patterns or rules in the English language to help them narrow it down intelligently.

 

Basically, a system was needed. For us the one that has worked happened to be LoE, but there are plenty of others.

 

Memorizing sounds made them good readers, rules made them better spellers.

 

Yes, but your children are young - much younger than the OP. For young children, phonemic problems can just be an exposure issue, but in a 12 year old, who has already had some significant OG work in AAS, I agree that it is time to look at auditory processing or stealth dyslexia. Stealth dyslexics who are strong verbally often use their big picture thinking to learn to read and fill in the gaps by context to get around their decoding and sounding out issues. This can be problematic for long term comprehension though. So yes, OP, I do think it is you need to get to the root of the problem whether auditory or dyslexia. From the evals, you can move forward with LiPS or another program that targets the specific issues.

[PeterPan]

I'm being lazy here and didn't read the whole thread, but when my dd was at that age and not sounding out, it was because of working memory problems and had nothing to do with her phonemic awareness (which is solidly average after years and years of SWR).  She also turned out to have some developmental vision problems that resulted in her having exceptionally poor visual memory, which is explained why she was struggling with spelling.

 

So yes, you could have a dyslexic.  Or you could have something else going on entirely.  At this point I'd put the money into some evals, not more curriculum.  You can get a psych eval through the ps or go privately.  You get her vision checked through a developmental optometrist, NOT a regular one.  Regular docs don't check the extra stuff (convergence, focusing, etc.) that you need.  You find a dev. optom. through COVD.

[Yolanda]

Thank you ladies. 

 

So much to consider! A bit overwhelming :{ 

 

I want to add that when doing AAS she would memorize the rules like the various sounds that 'a' makes or which vowels make the sound of a long e or a and so we would move on. When we'd go over them the following week, she gave the right answer but didn't think over these rules when spelling on her own. It's as if it didn't stay in long term memory, but even more than that she wouldn't think to use what she learned when writing for herself. She wouldn't consider, ' Now what are the rules about long A? Rules on spelling the sound of ee? So it seemed it wasn't working.

 

 

 

[Tracy]

Some people need to be trained to sound out words.  My dd was a very advanced reader at age 5.  But I noticed that she could not sound out new words.  But it wasn't terribly noticeable, because she only needed to be told the word once, and then she knew it.  So we started SWR, and it took over 2 years of intensive training before she began to sound out words on her own without being prompted.  Now, I would expect that perhaps it would be faster with an older student, but it is also possible that bad habits are more ingrained.  

 

I agree with Ellie.  Do Spalding or SWR or something like that intensively for at least a few months.  I don't care for programs like AAS that use word families, because a smart kid who struggles with spelling will use the word groupings as a crutch and not really learn to spell.  A child who reads at a high level but does not sound words out know how to use all the contextual clues to figure a word out, and word families will further ingrain that habit.  

[Ellie]

Thank you ladies. 

 

So much to consider! A bit overwhelming :{ 

 

I want to add that when doing AAS she would memorize the rules like the various sounds that 'a' makes or which vowels make the sound of a long e or a and so we would move on. When we'd go over them the following week, she gave the right answer but didn't think over these rules when spelling on her own. It's as if it didn't stay in long term memory, but even more than that she wouldn't think to use what she learned when writing for herself. She wouldn't consider, ' Now what are the rules about long A? Rules on spelling the sound of ee? So it seemed it wasn't working.

 

I'm not very familiar with AAS. :-)

 

But with Spalding, you don't study the rules. Actually, there are only 27 rules, and not all words use rules. That "a" has three sounds is not a rule; that it says its second (or "long") sound at the end of a short word or syllable is. You also don't learn the sounds which make long "a" or long "e," and so there would be no rules about that. Anyway, you teach the phonograms, and drill them daily, and when you begin teach the words in the spelling list, you analyze each and every word to see which phonograms are used, how many syllables if any, and which rules, if any, apply. By the end of a week, the children have analyzed up to 30 words, including writing them multiple times. This is much more in depth, it seems to me, than memorizing rules out of context. Perhaps that is what she needs.