Great article on food stamps and single mom

[Joanne]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5619118?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

 

I believe THIS is much more representative than fraud.

 

I did not write the article; but could have given the content.

[Ravin]

I think the sense of shame so many people attach to assistance programs is ridiculous and sad. I used to work at walmart. The only people hourly people with kids working there who didn't get food stamps were the ones who were second-paycheck spouses to someone making a good bit more.

 

I've lost track of how many times I've pointed out on this board that the vast majority of people who receive food assistance in the U.S. are working poor, disabled, or children.

 

The shame lies in the reality that so many people DO work hard but don't get paid enough to get by without government help. The real welfare queens in the U.S. are the big retail and service industry corporations that make fat profits while their employees are paid a pittance.

[SemiSweet]

I received food stamps many years ago for two months following exh job loss, I was so ashamed. I felt horrible when I applied. Statistically a person is very likely to use food stamps for less than 2 years, that's why I don't get the whole "dependency" argument. Helping people put food on their table won't create dependency. Any decent person would want others to be able to at least eat. The food stamp arguments irritate the crud out of me. It is more sad that huge companies get away with paying poverty wages so people need assistance just to live, I'm not a fan of subsidizing corporations.

[Mrs Mungo]

The shame lies in the reality that so many people DO work hard but don't get paid enough to get by without government help. The real welfare queens in the U.S. are the big retail and service industry corporations that make fat profits while their employees are paid a pittance.

Agree x infinity. Can we mention that the Walton family controls more wealth than the entire bottom 42% of the US combined? They have as much money as nearly *half* the country because the rest of us are subsidizing their workers.

[apennieformythoughts]

^^ and because Walmart is one of the places people can afford to shop :-/... we are part of the "invisible hungry." My husband works full time M-F 7:30a to 8-8:30p. We have a decent vehicle. We live by a lake (we own a mobile home, rent the land we are on, but it's a country setting on private land).  We don't qualify for any assistance other than medical (which by itself is enough!). We also don't make enough money to spend much on groceries. When I was reading through the grocery thread, my eyes got big at some of the budgets. We spend between $300-$450/month for our family of 4. We have to make things stretch as far as we can. If my husbands mother hadn't allowed us to return some printer ink for her and keep the money, Sunday night would have been the last meal we had groceries for (menu planning) and after that would have been a free for all (ramen, rice, eggs, toast, cereal, some leftovers, etc). And those menu plans don't account for breakfast and lunch. Payday is Thursday, but it's still a tricky balance to maintain when you have a 11 and 8 year old in the house. They eat and they aren't starving. But they are hungry. Most months I end up skimping on bills so I can buy more groceries. I'm not a single mom or on food stamps, but I totally agree with the sentiment. People have a very misguided view on who is using assistance and why. And AMEN to corporations being the biggest welfare recipients. It makes me sick how blind so many people appear to be. 

[Chris in VA]

My FOO never needed assistance, and I never grew up with any ideas of shame attached to receiving food stamps and such. I guess I was just unaware that the idea of living in a country where people helped each other was repugnant to some. Or asking for help.

 

Just not on my radar.

 

I wonder why that is.

[shinyhappypeople]

I'm glad safety net programs exist.  They kept me fed as a child, so I could grow up and argue with people about poverty-issues as an adult.  :D

 

But.

 

But, these programs do have a reputation of creating unintended dependency.  Not for everyone, but for enough people that it's a problem that needs to be addressed.   It is hard for some families to get out of the system once they're in it.  It discourages some people from improving their income because, transitioning out of poverty isn't always simple as, "Hey, now I have a better job and don't need help anymore."  A lot of people are in a difficult position of wondering whether or not to take that slightly better paying job or extra job because it would mean not qualifying for the food stamps that they still legitimately need because they make too much (barely - sometimes just a few dollars!).  It totally sucks.

 

If we, as a country, are going to do anything to expand food stamps, etc. I'd like to see the resources go to creating transition services to help families move towards financial independence.  Now, what those "transition services" would look like, I have no idea.  It doesn't really matter.  It's not going to happen, anyway.  But it would be nice.  

 

I'd also like to see Health and Human Services workers take fraud more seriously.  My DH works in county HHS and he's seen some stuff that would turn a democrat into a libertarian ;) .  People lie.  A lot.  And workers look the other way.  A lot.  They have a fraud investigator, but it's an "extra-help" part-time position.  

 

My older sister was on disability for a LONG time.  She now works at a restaurant and lives alone, but still lists her young adult DD as living with her so she can continue to qualify for food stamps.  She says otherwise she couldn't make it.  I say... well, nothing because I don't want family gatherings to get awkward. :)  But, if I were going to say something, I'd say that more than a decade of dependence on the system has left her institutionalized and with a dependency mindset, and that's SAD.  I'd say that LOTS of us were single, childless poor people at one time or another (me, in my 20s) and we ate a lot of ramen noodles, got crappy second jobs and made it work.  It's harder for families with children.  But healthy (not disabled) single people?  SO much more flexibility.

 

 

[Ravin]

Food stamps actually taper off in a fairly logical manner, at least in Arizona. What causes real transition problems is health care. Our out of pocket costs just for DD would be very high--meds, OT, psych and family doc visits, dentist, meds. I just applied for a part time job. If I get it, it will come with no health care benefits, and if we lose Medicaid, my entire paycheck will go poof. I plan on checking income limits and asking not to be paid too much.

[kiana]

I agree 100% about better transition services to help people who are marginal.

[flyingiguana]

My older sister was on disability for a LONG time.  She now works at a restaurant and lives alone, but still lists her young adult DD as living with her so she can continue to qualify for food stamps.  She says otherwise she couldn't make it.  I say... well, nothing because I don't want family gatherings to get awkward. :)  But, if I were going to say something, I'd say that more than a decade of dependence on the system has left her institutionalized and with a dependency mindset, and that's SAD.  I'd say that LOTS of us were single, childless poor people at one time or another (me, in my 20s) and we ate a lot of ramen noodles, got crappy second jobs and made it work.  It's harder for families with children.  But healthy (not disabled) single people?  SO much more flexibility.

Eh, I'd say nothing too -- it's just food. If she's not buying a yacht with it, I've got no problem with a bit of my tax money going to feed someone who isn't maybe completely destitute. After all, I give to food shelves too, and that's going to feed people who can't get on food stamps or who over eat their food stamp allotment. (I mean, food stamps are enough to live on aren't they?)(That was snark, if anyone was wondering)

 

Maybe she's more "dependent" than she has to be, but I'm guessing that she's dependent for a reason. It might just be mental, but just because she CAN get foodstamps by lying doesn't mean that's the whole cause of her issues. If she couldn't get them, would it really force her to get up and get a job? Would she be able?

 

There are bigger fish to go after, if the govt wanted to save money. The table in the US is so overloaded with excess food, I really don't see the big problem with allowing a few free loaders to eat along with the "more deserving". It's just food, for heaven's sakes. Jesus used to hand it out for free. Granted, he did a few miracles and ended up with a lot more than he could eat, but the food industry in the US seems to have a few miracles up its sleeve too. Might as well give it away instead of throwing it in the trash.

 

Maybe if it came with less shame (see Jesus, above) it would cause a lot of those people to think more about lifting themselves out of poverty -- well, if there were more jobs around that paid better than Walmart. (Hard for transition services to do much for people if there's nothing to transition TO -- and low paying jobs are the backbone of our nation right now)

[shawthorne44]

We were on food stamps for a few months.  It was wonderful when we had it.  One thing, though, I found the amount very generous.  We were on it for maybe 6 months, and then cut off for 2 months and I didn't even know it because there was enough surplus.  We weren't eating beans and rice either.   I just didn't buy convenience foods.  

[flyingiguana]

This is something to consider when pushing for transition programs:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/paul-ryan-anti-poverty-plan-would-cost-billions

It points out that Paul Ryan's push for transition programs is going to cost a LOT of money -- WAY more than the food stamp/welfare programs currently cost.

 

And the problem with these programs is that there's usually no job to transition TO. Most available jobs are minimum wage. And if you have one of those, well, you still need food stamps or housing subsidies or health care subsidies or some such thing.

 

One plus of his plan that I can see is that it would open up a whole lot of jobs for social workers.

 

Back when I was on food stamps, and had friends on welfare, the transitioning counseling we all got was a complete joke. We didn't need someone to tell us what to do. We just needed a full time job that paid ok. But that was kind of impossible. No one was hiring, and the few places that were hiring were out in the middle of nowhere. We would have needed a car to get there, but none of us could afford a car. And none of US even had kids to add even more complexity.

 

My counselor tried to sign me up for a training program to learn how to draw blood. Because I had a college degree in biology, and it was the closest thing he could come up with. Problem was, I would have had to pay for that. The tuition would have been more than my college tuition. He did kind of have a helpless look on his face, but I'm guessing he had some kind of quota where he had to suggest x number of things to x number of "clients".

 

We were all working minimum wage part time jobs, because that's what we could get. I imagine things are pretty similar now for the working poor. And the poor who aren't working are usually kids in school or the elderly or people who just can't hold down jobs for one reason or another which may not be immed apparent on first inspection. (The number of people committing outright fraud and buying yachts on the proceeds is really pretty low)

 

There'd be no reason for transition programs if the minimum wage were raised. And if corporations didn't cheat their employees out of benefits by only letting them work 20 hours a week.

[flyingiguana]

We were on food stamps for a few months.  It was wonderful when we had it.  One thing, though, I found the amount very generous.  We were on it for maybe 6 months, and then cut off for 2 months and I didn't even know it because there was enough surplus.  We weren't eating beans and rice either.   I just didn't buy convenience foods.

I found that to be the case too, when I was on back in the 80's. However, recently, the cost of food has just shot up. I doubt the food stamp allotment has kept pace.

 

I also didn't eat much. Like, probably unhealthily so. If I had to be on food stamps now, and if I were continuing to eat a healthy amount, I think I'd have to be very very careful with how I bought things.

 

Does anyone know what the current amount is? Does it vary around the country? Because I can imagine, if it were all the same, no matter where you were, that people in some parts of the country could get by just fine and wonder why folks in other parts of the country were struggling on them.

[Ravin]

Our food stamps were plenty plus surplus a year ago. I had our pantry well stocked with surplus staples. This year, that's not the case. We've been steadily eating into that surplus, and spending cash (student loan money, credit card) on food so we have milk through the month.

 

Of course, DH doesn't count right now because only one of us can get exempted from working based on primary caregiver of child under six and/or full-time student. We also had DW's boys most of the summer and teenage boys eat a lot.

 

I will say, people who cheat the system do tick me off, even when I understand why they do it.

[Mergath]

I found that to be the case too, when I was on back in the 80's. However, recently, the cost of food has just shot up. I doubt the food stamp allotment has kept pace.

 

I also didn't eat much. Like, probably unhealthily so. If I had to be on food stamps now, and if I were continuing to eat a healthy amount, I think I'd have to be very very careful with how I bought things.

 

Does anyone know what the current amount is? Does it vary around the country? Because I can imagine, if it were all the same, no matter where you were, that people in some parts of the country could get by just fine and wonder why folks in other parts of the country were struggling on them.

 

We were on food stamps three or four years ago, while dh went through a period of unemployment.  Our income was zero at the time, and for a family of three we got around $450 a month in food stamps.  With the cost of food here, it was tight but we could do it, though we were usually living on leftover spaghetti for the last two or three days of the month.

 

The cost of food has increased hugely since then, but I doubt the amount of food stamps has kept up.  If I had to feed us on that amount in this area now, I couldn't do it.  Not without resorting to things like boxed pasta dinners.  I'm immensely grateful each and every day that dh found a good job.

[kiana]

This is something to consider when pushing for transition programs:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/paul-ryan-anti-poverty-plan-would-cost-billions

It points out that Paul Ryan's push for transition programs is going to cost a LOT of money -- WAY more than the food stamp/welfare programs currently cost.

 

I think we're talking about two different things when we talk about transition programs.

 

What I'm meaning is that I would like to see benefits like the healthcare and housing not be an on/off switch where either you're low enough to qualify or you're not. I'd like to see both of them being more of a sliding scale, where based on how much you make and cost-of-living you get access to cheaper health care/cheaper housing.

 

[Mergath]

I think we're talking about two different things when we talk about transition programs.

 

What I'm meaning is that I would like to see benefits like the healthcare and housing not be an on/off switch where either you're low enough to qualify or you're not. I'd like to see both of them being more of a sliding scale, where based on how much you make and cost-of-living you get access to cheaper health care/cheaper housing.

 

 

That's how it works here.  As your income goes up, they gradually decrease the amount of food stamps/cash assistance, and even after they cut you off you get several months of transitional cash assistance.  It's not all or nothing.  And if you get to the point where you make too much for Medical Assistance, which is state-paid health insurance, they transition you over to Minnesota Care, for which you pay low income-based premiums.  At least, that's how the insurance used to work.  I've heard they changed it somewhat to incorporate the MN health insurance exchange.

[chiguirre]

 

My older sister was on disability for a LONG time.  She now works at a restaurant and lives alone, but still lists her young adult DD as living with her so she can continue to qualify for food stamps.  She says otherwise she couldn't make it.  I say... well, nothing because I don't want family gatherings to get awkward. :)  But, if I were going to say something, I'd say that more than a decade of dependence on the system has left her institutionalized and with a dependency mindset, and that's SAD.  I'd say that LOTS of us were single, childless poor people at one time or another (me, in my 20s) and we ate a lot of ramen noodles, got crappy second jobs and made it work.  It's harder for families with children.  But healthy (not disabled) single people?  SO much more flexibility.

 

If I'm understanding correctly, your sister works. Does she make enough to pay rent, utilities and eat? Buy her uniform and decent shoes to be on her feet her whole shift? If she's not spending the food stamp money on an iphone (I know they only work for food, but she could take the cash she would have spent on food and spend it on luxury items), I'm not really that outraged. Yes, she could eat ramen, but the effects of that when you're 40 are much worse than when you're 20 and she might very well end up on disability again.

[MomtoCandJ]

Hmmm we are one those "invisable" families. The ones that make too much for most assistance but still struggle a little. We qualify for Medicaid (the girls and I, dh has to pay for his insurance) because of the ACA, and WIC (food stamps should be more like that ).

[kiana]

That's how it works here.  As your income goes up, they gradually decrease the amount of food stamps/cash assistance, and even after they cut you off you get several months of transitional cash assistance.  It's not all or nothing.  And if you get to the point where you make too much for Medical Assistance, which is state-paid health insurance, they transition you over to Minnesota Care, for which you pay low income-based premiums.  At least, that's how the insurance used to work.  I've heard they changed it somewhat to incorporate the MN health insurance exchange.

 

Not everywhere works this way yet, alas :/

[UncleEJ]

Sorry, my post came across as judgmental and did not add anything to the conversation. I can't think of a way to phrase what I was trying to say so I'll say nothing.

[Joanne]

 

 

But.

 

But, these programs do have a reputation of creating unintended dependency.  Not for everyone, but for enough people that it's a problem that needs to be addressed.   It is hard for some families to get out of the system once they're in it.  It discourages some people from improving their income because, transitioning out of poverty isn't always simple as, "Hey, now I have a better job and don't need help anymore."  A lot of people are in a difficult position of wondering whether or not to take that slightly better paying job or extra job because it would mean not qualifying for the food stamps that they still legitimately need because they make too much (barely - sometimes just a few dollars!).  It totally sucks.

 

 

 

I'd also like to see Health and Human Services workers take fraud more seriously.  My DH works in county HHS and he's seen some stuff that would turn a democrat into a libertarian ;) .  People lie.  A lot.  And workers look the other way.  A lot.  They have a fraud investigator, but it's an "extra-help" part-time position.  

 

My older sister was on disability for a LONG time.  She now works at a restaurant and lives alone, but still lists her young adult DD as living with her so she can continue to qualify for food stamps.  She says otherwise she couldn't make it.  I say... well, nothing because I don't want family gatherings to get awkward. :)  But, if I were going to say something, I'd say that more than a decade of dependence on the system has left her institutionalized and with a dependency mindset, and that's SAD.  I'd say that LOTS of us were single, childless poor people at one time or another (me, in my 20s) and we ate a lot of ramen noodles, got crappy second jobs and made it work.  It's harder for families with children.  But healthy (not disabled) single people?  SO much more flexibility.

 

I don't think the problem is with program dependency, but the structure and function of low wages in the US. It's not the system that makes them "unintentionally dependent" but the dynamic of low pay itself.

 

I used to assume a higher level of "fraud" until I was in a situation in which I engaged with the system. It is not easy to fraud the system. The SNAP benefits are generous (IMO) but TANF ("welfare") is not. The medical support is a nightmare - only truly understood by experience or being very informed of how low income is impacted by medical issues:

 

1. % of income used for a Dr visit or copay is impactful
2. Often seeking medical help involves not only a payment but ALSO loss of income
3. That creates a major impact on the budget
4. Often jobs held by people in this situation are not ones that easily allow time off for employee or sick kids

I am not talking about single, low income, no kids households but I do believe that full time work should be a wage sufficient to support one person without assistance.

[TeacherZee]

About 7 years ago, I worked in a grocery store in Alaska. I got to intimately see how much food stamp receipients spent and on what. It was staggering. Granted, at the time, I was newly married with no kids yet but the amounts some of these people received was mind boggling. The way the system worked was that new money would roll over at midnight on the first of every month. I worked at a 24 hour store and many people would arrive at about 10:30pm and fill many carts and wait for 12:05 and rush the checkouts. It was hectic. Huge 5, 6, 7 hundred dollar orders in the middle of the night. A vast majority of folks would be purchasing expensive meats, TONS of junk food, frozen dinners, lunchables, cookies, candies, cases and cases of soda and drinks. It appeared to me that most people got plenty of benefits from food stamps. It didn't look like most people had to budget carefully. Like I said earlier, this was in Alaska were the cost of living is high and it was a while ago, I don't know how things may have changed. I know there were a few families that got over $2500 per month.

 

 

ETA: I share this to show how much money some people have received in a specific area.

You do realize that comments like this is why people feel shame at receiving food stamps, right? People like you judging what they buy.

[Joanne]

We were on food stamps three or four years ago, while dh went through a period of unemployment.  Our income was zero at the time, and for a family of three we got around $450 a month in food stamps.  With the cost of food here, it was tight but we could do it, though we were usually living on leftover spaghetti for the last two or three days of the month.

 

The cost of food has increased hugely since then, but I doubt the amount of food stamps has kept up.  If I had to feed us on that amount in this area now, I couldn't do it.  Not without resorting to things like boxed pasta dinners.  I'm immensely grateful each and every day that dh found a good job.

 

I remember that period for you, I think. You were here, and I remember struggles with DH and him working as a part of the social assistance. It was a challenging time, yes?

 

About 8 years ago, I went on Food Stamps for the first time. It was post divorce, and I had made a poor choice to remarry. Our income was limited, and child support went from a high amount to $400 a month. At that time, we were a family of 5 and our benefits were $600 a month. It was do-able food wise, but living was still hard.

[Carol in Cal.]

Around here the working poor do not have the room (either refrigerator or cabinet space) to buy in bulk and enjoy those Costco savings. 

 

SRO's are ironically named as they often hold a couple or a single parent with a couple of kids.

They typically have kitchen privileges but no secure storage, and shared fridges means that each room has maybe 1/3 of a shelf max for their perishables.

Also people who live like that typically piece together their income -- maybe 3 fulltime and 1 parttime job among two people, all paying minimum wage.  Or a 'contractor' job cleaning offices at night and a parttime minimum wage job during the day.  So there is no one around to cook for the group or even watch the kids. 

 

Stop and think what it would mean to barely have your meager earnings pay for a room for you and your kids to sleep in and nothing else.  What would you do?

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

Having said that, the food stamps and welfare benefits were far more generous when I was a kid, which did lead to some resentment at times.  I remember how much better the welfare kids ate than we did, and how they got to go to the dentist or get vaccines without worrying about it.  They had color TV's and we had black and white.  My dad worked hard but it wasn't enough, and women pretty much didn't work when they had little kids in those days.  

 

Anyone who has been here a long time know that I encourage people to take food stamps and other assistance, and not to be ashamed of it.

 

But that doesn't mean that these previous facts are not true.  The whole truth is important to understand.  There is some use of benefits that is wasteful, even now, and it makes people frantic sometimes.  Hiding that is not good, although shaming people is far worse. 

[fdrinca]

Walmart derives SO MUCH BENEFIT from food assistance. It makes me crazy that it perpetuates this cycle with its own low-wage employees. 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/

 

Growing up, my family qualified for food assistance but we didn't use it as a "pride" issue. We never went hungry, but we definitely had a tight budget, and other areas of our life were more...precarious. (I'm thinking about barely functioning cars, for example.)

 

I really feel like we need to feed hungry people. I'm not sure the best mechanism for that, policy-wise.

[Kim in Appalachia]

This is one of those topics that make me angry. I agree with Ravin.  Large corporations receive tons of government assistance and it's called a good thing (promoting jobs).  Meanwhile the company makes billions, avoids taxes, and pays workers less than a living wage.  It's upsetting.  And in the area I live in, even if you have a degree (such as a CNA) you only make about a dollar (dollar!!!) more an hour than the Walmart workers.  And then people get mad at food stamps, housing assistance and medicaid.  Blah!  

 

I have to stop typing, because I can feel a rant coming on about health care too! 

[Murphy101]

I think it's hogwash that getting food stamps causes dependency.

 

Unless we also think getting healthcare or library books or college grants causes dependency?

 

It amazes me how many people think those non-necessities or less necessary than FOOD government assistance programs should be mandated for everyone to receive - but food? People who take govt assistance are doomed to become filthy beggars mooching off society.

 

And that's not even touching the fact that MOST work and that almost none of them get enough to cover the expense entirely. Foodstamps is roughly a $1 a day per person listed in the household. For most people, that's not going to be enough to cover all their grocery expenses.

 

I'm confused and angered by the rhetoric that says college grants and library books and well checks are a right, but food? No. Only losers and abusers need help getting food.

[Murphy101]

Fwiw...

 

I do think the system is geared to KEEP people in it by severely penalizing them for improving their lot in life. Which I think is an entirely separate issue. That is not the fault of those in it. They didn't make the system. They are just trying to survive it.

[Carol in Cal.]

I volunteer on the board of a down to earth hunger nonprofit in a downtown area.

We get food from Second Harvest and other donors and give it away freely and respectfully to whoever needs it, some homeless but mostly near homeless people in the SRO type locations I described above.

We are blessed to be able to do this.

If we didn't I don't think food stamps would cover the shortage, plus we also give away clothes and small items.  In the summer when the kids are not getting the school lunch program, things get very difficult.

 

One thing that food banks tend not to have is disposable diapers.  Now, before you go all cuckoo on why not get cloth ones, the answer is that they are extremely difficult to keep laundered if you have to take them to a laundrymat all the time.   Somewhat less rare is baby food, but it's not available routinely.  And detergent in smallish boxes is also not commonly present.  Those three things are big expenses for the working poor that are not covered too many places.  So if you're looking for something to donate, those are high benefit items.

WIC is very helpful for parents with young children, and I'm glad that they started to feed breastfeeding mothers nutritious food (hence feeding those kids by proxy.)

 

It's really easy to get insulated from each other.  We tend to live in economic enclaves.  But we should not close our eyes.

 

 

[Murphy101]

I volunteer on the board of a down to earth hunger nonprofit in a downtown area.

We get food from Second Harvest and other donors and give it away freely and respectfully to whoever needs it, some homeless but mostly near homeless people in the SRO type locations I described above

We are blessed to be able to do this.

If we didn't I don't think food stamps would cover the shortage, plus we also give away clothes and small items. In the summer when the kids are not getting the school lunch program, things get very difficult.

 

One thing that food banks tend not to have is disposable diapers. Now, before you go all cuckoo on why not get cloth ones, the answer is that they are extremely difficult to keep laundered if you have to take the to a laundrymat all the time. Somewhat less rare is baby food, but it's not available routinely. And detergent in smallish boxes is also not commonly present. Those three things are big expenses for the working poor that are not covered too many places. So if you're looking for something to donate, those are high benefit items.

WIC is very helpful for parents with young children, and I'm glad that they started to feed breastfeeding mothers nutritious food (hence feeding those kids by proxy.)

 

It's really easy to get insulated from each other. We tend to live in economic enclaves. But we should not close our eyes.

But baby food isn't necessary? Babies eat food. I always just mashed up whatever was in my plate. IF we splurged in baby food at all, it was for stuff we couldn't afford to buy for regular meals. Like we couldn't afford fresh fruit and veggies for a family meal, but we could get a few jars so the baby got them.

 

As for laundry... We used to use foodstamp money to buy it. Bc I learned that white vinegar and baking soda (which are covered) works just as well if not better than the cheapest laundry detergent for a tenth of the price. I tell everyone I know struggling to do it.

 

ETA: I'm not begrudging what you don't have. I just saying a huge problem is these people aren't being told some basic money saving information. I know I wasn't told. I had like FOUR kids before someone told me. And I felt really worried about it bc it was so... Not the social norm thing to do. I was so nervous it made me a bad mother to do it.

[Tanaqui]

But baby food isn't necessary? Babies eat food. I always just mashed up whatever was in my plate. IF we splurged in baby food at all, it was for stuff we couldn't afford to buy for regular meals. Like we couldn't afford fresh fruit and veggies for a family meal, but we could get a few jars so the baby got them.

 

Baby food is extremely expensive per pound, however, it has an advantage over unprocessed foods in two ways. First of all, it keeps indefinitely, which is a godsend if you don't have reliable access to a working fridge or if you can't afford wasge - and because it comes in small jars, you have less to store. Secondly, it doesn't have to be cooked. Many, many people don't have a stove they can use, because they live in just a room, or in a motel, or in a shelter. Food you don't have to cook is worth the extra price if you have no way to cook it in the first place.

 

(And don't forget, many people don't have much time in the day to cook, or don't know how. This is just one of the many ways it is more expensive to be poor rather than rich.)

 

Now, before you go all cuckoo on why not get cloth ones, the answer is that they are extremely difficult to keep laundered if you have to take the to a laundrymat all the time

 

And many landromats won't allow you to wash cloth diapers. They just won't.

 

With that said, if you're deadset on food for the food bank, the best bet is to donate cash. They know what their clients need better than you can, and they can take your $10 donation and purchase what would've cost you $25 or $50 at the store, using bulk prices and corporate matching.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

OK, stop and think.

 

You rent A ROOM.  In a big house.  It doesn't have any furniture.  You sleep on a mattress on the floor with your kids.  Your clothes are piled in a corner, so are the kids' clothes.  You can barely afford this.

 

You have 1/3 of a shelf in the fridge, and some other occupant in the house might take your stuff if it looks good. After all, they are very hungry too.  It's not right but it happens.  And you have one small locked cupboard in the kitchen.  That is where you keep your dishes, pots, pans, and any food that doesn't need refrigeration. 

 

WHERE DO YOU PUT BULK FOOD?

HOW DO YOU BUY AHEAD?

HOW DO YOU MAKE BABY FOOD AND THEN STORE IT?

HOW DO YOU COOK AT ALL, REALLY?  YOU'RE WORKING 1 1/2 JOBS JUST TO PAY FOR THE STUPID ROOM, AND YOUR CAR IS AN UNRELIABLE BEATER.  HOW DO YOU RELIABLY SHOP, AND HOW OFTEN MUST YOU DO SO TO EAT?

 

Think from that perspective about all of the money saving tips we pass around here.  Invariably they depend on having at least a full kitchen, and some storage, and time at home. 

 

You can't freeze stuff if you don't have freezer space, so cooking ahead is pretty tough.  Naturally you buy food in smallish cans and other preserved containers.  Even if you had the money to buy a 25 lb sack of beans and cook them little by little, you don't have the time.  If you're cooking something in the common kitchen, you have to be physically present all the time, and you have to consume it that day or maybe the next day.  Besides, you can't afford the 25 lb sack, and where would you put it?  Hang it from the ceiling of your room?

I'm not saying that everyone who is poor is noble and brilliant, any more than I would say that anyone who is well to do is noble and brilliant.  I'm just saying that the logistics are really stacked against the working poor.

The most financially successful working poor groups I have seen are immigrants who live in large extended families, and designate one person to stay at home and do that kind of thing--be there for everyone's kids, cook all the time, shop carefully.  Usually it's a grandmother who probably will never learn English and can stay on 'relief' indefinitely.  But by and large these are people who are working their way up and understand that these are trade offs and temporary.   

[FaithManor]

In our area, CNA's only get 65 cents an hour more than minimum wage, not enough to shake a stick at, but benefits are cut quite a bit in this state for getting that "pay raise". Tuition is a thousand dollars. Think about how many hours a person has to work to net breaking even much less feel any difference.

 

Emt's - tuition of nearly 2000 - starting wage of $10.50 and medics - 6000 in tuition and two years or six semesters of school and clinicals/ internships and externships - $12.00 an hour. Not much money for the level of training and responsibility! There is high turn over in the medic field because many state have 1 yr. medic to RN programs and once they become nurses, the pay doubles. I will say this, every EMS she has worked for has offered fantastic medical insurance for a bit of nothing cost, regular pay raises, overtime...which is not all that uncommon given the nature of the job because usualy you are still desperately writing reports when the clock expires.. and that makes it possible for EMT's and medics to support themselves at the job.

 

It is so hard for people to get ahead! Corporate welfare needs to end! The tax breaks, staffing with only part timers, shafting employees on their time cards - pressuring employees to work undocumented hours under threat of losing the job - etc.

 

Then we need to address foundational education. Dd began her EMT program with 50 people, 25 were drummed out and refunded their tuition money when they could not pass a basic math and reading comprehension test the first week. Another 12 failed out shortly after. It tends to be the same in many similar fields and trades...the foundation on which to build is not there for getting into and passing training programs for jobs that would pay a living wage.

[Amira]

OK, stop and think.

 

You rent A ROOM.  In a big house.  It doesn't have any furniture.  You sleep on a mattress on the floor with your kids.  Your clothes are piled in a corner, so are the kids' clothes.  You can barely afford this.

 

You have 1/3 of a shelf in the fridge, and some other occupant in the house might take your stuff if it looks good. After all, they are very hungry too.  It's not right but it happens.  And you have one small locked cupboard in the kitchen.  That is where you keep your dishes, pots, pans, and any food that doesn't need refrigeration. 

 

WHERE DO YOU PUT BULK FOOD?

HOW DO YOU BUY AHEAD?

HOW DO YOU MAKE BABY FOOD AND THEN STORE IT?

HOW DO YOU COOK AT ALL, REALLY?  YOU'RE WORKING 1 1/2 JOBS JUST TO PAY FOR THE STUPID ROOM, AND YOUR CAR IS AN UNRELIABLE BEATER.  HOW DO YOU RELIABLY SHOP, AND HOW OFTEN MUST YOU DO SO TO EAT?

 

Think from that perspective about all of the money saving tips we pass around here.  Invariably they depend on having at least a full kitchen, and some storage, and time at home. 

 

You can't freeze stuff if you don't have freezer space, so cooking ahead is pretty tough.  Naturally you buy food in smallish cans and other preserved containers.  Even if you had the money to buy a 25 lb sack of beans and cook them little by little, you don't have the time.  If you're cooking something in the common kitchen, you have to be physically present all the time, and you have to consume it that day or maybe the next day.  Besides, you can't afford the 25 lb sack, and where would you put it?  Hang it from the ceiling of your room?

 

I'm not saying that everyone who is poor is noble and brilliant, any more than I would say that anyone who is well to do is noble and brilliant.  I'm just saying that the logistics are really stacked against the working poor.

 

The most financially successful working poor groups I have seen are immigrants who live in large extended families, and designate one person to stay at home and do that kind of thing--be there for everyone's kids, cook all the time, shop carefully.  Usually it's a grandmother who probably will never learn English and can stay on 'relief' indefinitely.  But by and large these are people who are working their way up and understand that these are trade offs and temporary.   

 

 

This. A million times.  We were on a very tight budget at one point and qualified for over $800/month in food stamps.  But I didn't need it since I could buy in bulk and store it (and knew how to cook with weird, basic ingredients), I had time to cook, and I had access to a car where I could drive to a much cheaper grocery story a few times a year.  

 

I was lucky that I was in a situation where I didn't have to use food stamps, but it was hard work to keep our food affordable. Many, many people who are poor don't have all the luxuries I did and I would never, EVER try to reduce food stamp benefits.  Can't we at least remove the stress of worrying about whether you or or children are hungry?

 

But some people would tell me that they'd rather have my family get food stamps (we were in graduate school at the time with three children) because we'd pay it back later.  I guess that to them, my children deserved to eat more than other children since dh was getting a PhD.  

[Joanne]

Cooking "well" and from scratch is a challenge when you are a single mom working multiple jobs. I remember reading (sometimes even here ;)) that cooking healthfully and well "doesn't take THAT much time and effort."

 

But. Yes.it.does.

When you are either working or traveling to work from 7:30 a.m. until 10:00 p.m., cooking well from scratch is a bit elusive.

[Carol in Cal.]

If our nonprofit could afford another employee, I think we would try an outreach person to go around and organize cooking and a little gardening in the SRO houses.  If the families who live there could get together and share a pot of spaghetti sauce from scratch and a pot of refried beans a couple of times a week it would take some of the food prep stress off of them and also enable some bulk purchasing.

 

Right now we can't decant bulk purchases into individual sizes, or we would take 25 and 50 lb sacks and repackage them for people.

 

One thing that has been nice lately is that Second Harvest has been getting some frozen entrees from restaurants, four servings to a bag, that people can take home and just heat up that night.  Nice stuff, better than I would cook at home, and not in overwhelming quantities.  But it is so iffy whether we can count on these or not, and we are lucky (blessed) to have a freezer--lots of food programs don't have the means to store items like this.

[shinyhappypeople]

If I'm understanding correctly, your sister works. Does she make enough to pay rent, utilities and eat? Buy her uniform and decent shoes to be on her feet her whole shift? If she's not spending the food stamp money on an iphone (I know they only work for food, but she could take the cash she would have spent on food and spend it on luxury items), I'm not really that outraged. Yes, she could eat ramen, but the effects of that when you're 40 are much worse than when you're 20 and she might very well end up on disability again.

Yes, she has a smartphone.  She pays for it from her wages, since she doesn't have to pay for her food.

 

I don't know if she's on housing assistance anymore.  (Doubt it, the income threshold for a single person is very low)

 

My POINT is that she's displaying a learned helplessness.  The solution is not for her to violate her conscience and commit fraud, nor is it for her to ask the government to fix her life.  The solution is for her to find a second job or ONE job that pays better.  Maybe she could start her own side business.  Unfortunately, I think she's been trained into passivity.  As an adult, she's always had someone else (usually the gov't) at least  partially paying the bills.  She doesn't know any other way to live.  Sometimes you don't know how much you're capable of doing, until you're forced to just DO it, no net.  

 

I believe in her.  I think she has extraordinary, untapped strength and ability.  I think the absolute kindest thing that could happen for her is to have her food stamps pulled and be faced with $150 a month for groceries and the challenge to figure it out.  She would figure it out, and her life would be better because of it.  Despite good intentions, sometimes helping isn't really helping. Sometimes its enabling, and sometimes it is, ultimately, enslaving.

 

There are times that it is absolutely necessary to avail ourselves of safety net programs for a season, like in the article the OP shared.  I understand this, have used them myself (WIC), and hope these programs continue.  I just I think it's weird and sad to applaud - or at the very least rationalize - chronically dependent behavior in healthy adults.  

[UncleEJ]

You do realize that comments like this is why people feel shame at receiving food stamps, right? People like you judging what they buy.

I was not trying to judge, just to illustrate they in this situation the recipients received an amount that allowed for the purchase of such things. Judgement was not my intention and I apologize if my post came across that way.

[shinyhappypeople]

Fwiw...

 

I do think the system is geared to KEEP people in it by severely penalizing them for improving their lot in life. Which I think is an entirely separate issue. That is not the fault of those in it. They didn't make the system. They are just trying to survive it.

 

Yes it is geared to keep people poor.  This is the observation of my DH who works for an entitlement program.

 

I don't think it's the clients' fault.  But I do think that, despite the unfairness of the situation, it's in the best interests of clients to devise a way out of chronic dependency.  It's not easy, quick, or comfortable, but for most healthy adults it's do-able.  

 

I wish I could figure out a brilliant solution, but I don't know what it is.

 

Basic education is important.  Reading fluently and mastery of arithmetic.  Maybe we start there.  Maybe local communities could expand small business / entrepreneurship training programs.  

 

I don't know... I just know I feel deeply saddened by the whole thing.

[Carol in Cal.]

.....

 

 

There are times that it is absolutely necessary to avail ourselves of safety net programs for a season, like in the article the OP shared.  I understand this, have used them myself (WIC), and hope these programs continue.  I just I think it's weird and sad to applaud - or at the very least rationalize - chronically dependent behavior in healthy adults.  

 

So here is one of the catches 22--we do need temporary safety nets and for some we also need permanent ones--for the mentally ill, for instance.  So the fact that we have permanent ones for the mentally ill will always spill over into having some take permanent help for whom it was not intended. 

 

I would rather that some were helped without needing it that much than to risk not helping those who truly do need it.

 

Having said that, I agree with you about your sister, and in general there is truly a cycle of dependance in some families/communities.  Let's face, we all learn to fend for ourselves from observation, first of our families of origin and later from others around us.  If all we see early on is people getting government food, that is going to be 'normalized' in our heads.  If all we see is people being too embarrassed to take it even if they need it, that will be normalized also.  If we see people who work hard to be self-sufficient but also share with others and see no shame in help, that will be normalized, too.

 

I grew up in an extremely frugal and fairly poor household, and have seen how that and a focus on education have paid off in the long run.  This gives me a tremendous advantage in knowing how to live--how to save money, how to prioritize expenditures, how to get ahead.  I have a cousin who grew up in a much more affluent family/community, and who went onto welfare at 16 or so, had a bunch of kids, never married, and has lived on government and private assistance her whole adult life.  She knows how to do all the same stuff as I do, but she has not passed that information on to her kids.  They are far more likely than mine to end up on public assistance.  It has been normalized for them. She has grandchildren as well, and none of that side of the family has gone to college or become self-sufficient.  I love her to death, but I don't think she has done right by her children in raising them without teaching them the skills that they need to be on their own.

[shawthorne44]

I was not trying to judge, just to illustrate they in this situation the recipients received an amount that allowed for the purchase of such things. Judgement was not my intention and I apologize if my post came across that way.

 

Do you know why they felt they had to buy things on the 1st at midnight?  Only reason I can think is a) they money disappears later or b) the stuff isn't available later.  I can't imagine either happening with food stamps used in a grocery store.  

I could see shopping for some things at midnight because you'd run out of money and were hungry.  But, not a large cart full.  

[Leav97]

Sorry, my post came across as judgmental and did not add anything to the conversation. I can't think of a way to phrase what I was trying to say so I'll say nothing.

 

I played with the food stamps calculator a little.  A single parent household with 9 kids, no income, and $800 a month in housing costs, is estimated to receive under $1,700.  How big were the families receiving $2500?

[SemiSweet]

I will never be able to comprehend why people get up in arms about food stamps, of all the things our government does wrong. There are few things I would rather see my tax dollars go to than helping provide food to those in need. The fraud rate is not high enough to get my panties in a bunch. I don't want to see hungry people out in daily life, I live in the richest country in the world, why the heck should people be hungry? Get up in arms about providing the Walton family with gazillions of dollars to sock away offshore. That's worth being angry about. Food stamp lady/guy eating crab legs? Who cares.

[Tanaqui]

Do you know why they felt they had to buy things on the 1st at midnight?  Only reason I can think is a) they money disappears later or B) the stuff isn't available later.  I can't imagine either happening with food stamps used in a grocery store.  

I could see shopping for some things at midnight because you'd run out of money and were hungry.  But, not a large cart full.  

 

If everybody in the area gets their food stamps at the same time, is it possible that the stores run specials when they know the folks with food stamps will be there?

 

[Joanne]

 

 

There are times that it is absolutely necessary to avail ourselves of safety net programs for a season, like in the article the OP shared.  I understand this, have used them myself (WIC), and hope these programs continue.  I just I think it's weird and sad to applaud - or at the very least rationalize - chronically dependent behavior in healthy adults.  

 

The system disallows chronic dependency. 

 

http://www.nlsa.us/resources/benefits/pb4_tanf.html

 

http://www.cafoodbanks.org/docs/SNAPFacts.pdf

[Carol in Cal.]

I will never be able to comprehend why people get up in arms about food stamps, of all the things our government does wrong. There are few things I would rather see my tax dollars go to than helping provide food to those in need. The fraud rate is not high enough to get my panties in a bunch. I don't want to see hungry people out in daily life, I live in the richest country in the world, why the heck should people be hungry? Get up in arms about providing the Walton family with gazillions of dollars to sock away offshore. That's worth being angry about. Food stamp lady/guy eating crab legs? Who cares.

 

I don't agree with it, but I understand that if someone without food stamps can't afford crab legs they could resent their tax dollars going to pay for them for someone else.

[Carol in Cal.]

The system disallows chronic dependency. 

 

http://www.nlsa.us/resources/benefits/pb4_tanf.html

 

http://www.cafoodbanks.org/docs/SNAPFacts.pdf

 

That's welfare, though, not housing assistance or food stamps.  Welfare (AFDC is what they used to call it) is cash assistance for poor families with children.  It's a separate program, and has a 5 year limit since the Clinton era.

[Carol in Cal.]

If everybody in the area gets their food stamps at the same time, is it possible that the stores run specials when they know the folks with food stamps will be there?

 

Ha, some places they raise prices at that point.  It stinks.  Plus big chains charge more for the same food in ghettos because so many have no competition there and there are fewer folks have the time and transportation to shop around.