s/o Early graduation vs. extra classes/study

[DragonFaerie]

I was reading the thread about graduating students young if they have completed the graduation requirements.  Many people suggested continuing to take additional classes rather than graduating young.  So what would this look like on a transcript?  Wouldn't this look like 5+ years of high school?  And wouldn't taking 5 or more years of high school look bad compared to students who "finished" high school in only four years?

[maize]

Most people just put the last four years on the transcript and call that high school. Some particular classes from earlier years may be included and marked as completed prior to high school (math seems to be a common example).

[Barbara H]

No it doesn't look at all bad to have more high school work and in fact the students who are really competitive for scholarships or admissions at highly selective schools often have more on the transcript. It is not at all uncommon for students (public, private, and homeschooled) to have more than four years of core classes in their areas of strongest interest. Students may go on to do more upper level work such as AP or dual enrollment courses. Or, they may pick up additional skills such as a second foreign language or pursue an interest such as computer programming.

 

If a student goes very far in a particular subject they may drop off some of the earlier courses. So, for example if a student takes through calc 2 they probably won't include algebra 1 on the high school transcript even if for some students it is a high school level course. Some students will finish some of their introductory college credits (through AP, dual enrollment or CLEP) while still enrolled in high school and that can be a strategy to cut back on college costs.

[Muttichen]

We started calling things "High School" on our transcript when our kids were the age of public school ninth graders in our state.  Any courses they had done earlier, even if they were high school level, we didn't list because we read that colleges were interested with what students did with those four years and we figured that if the child was taking calculus in ninth grade, they'd know he had taken the classes that came before it.  So my kids just had four years of really advanced classes.

[kiana]

In addition to what others said, some people transcript high school level classes taken earlier and simply mark them "prior to 9th grade". That way if a school wants to see, for example, every math class starting with algebra 1, it's available for viewing -- but a school that doesn't want that can easily disregard that portion of the transcript. Also, this makes it easy to simply delete those if a school explicitly asks that those not be included.

 

It isn't "five years of high school" but rather "a really advanced 8th grade and then four years of high school", if that makes sense.

[regentrude]

I simply listed the work of the last four years on the transcript -plus algebra 1 and biology with a  remark "taken before 9th grade", to make clear that the subjects had been covered (I did not count them towards the number of credits or the GPA)

 

Really, for a student taking upper level university English classes in 12th grade, nobody will give a hoot whether this student did "high school level" English (whatever that means) in 7th grade. Likewise, if a student takes two credits of calc based university physics in 11th grade, she may safely omit the physical science course from 8th grade, even if that was supposedly a "high school level" class.

 

Colleges want to see students to take the most challenging courses available, and they want to see students progress and not rest on their laurels. They don't want to see the prodigy who took algebra 1 through precalculus in 6th through 9th grade and then stops taking any math because the requirement is fulfilled. They want to see continuous work during the last four years... and then listing the early courses is often a moot point.

[DragonFaerie]

That all makes sense, except that I'm thinking on the other end, after four years of high school.  In our case, DD will be starting 9th next month while she's still 12.  Four years of high school means she'll graduate at 16.  What if we decide she's not ready to go away to college at 16?  If we don't graduate her, then she'll end up with a fifth year of high school.  We can't go back and call 9th grade 8th grade at that point because she'll have dual enrollment credits and such so there will be record of her grade level (I assume).  So how do you handle an extra year after high school if you still want the kid to be able to enter college as a freshman and still qualify for scholarships, etc.?

[Barbara H]

My thought is that you keep track of work once it is high school level and then you sort it out as time goes on. Don't graduate her until she is ready. I work with many homeschoolers who end up with more years of high school level work and it works out just fine to present it on the transcript. This really doesn't cause a problem. One thing you want to keep an eye on is that the PSAT for National Merit occurs typically in junior year, so that's a point where you may want to start making some decisions.

[regentrude]

That all makes sense, except that I'm thinking on the other end, after four years of high school.  In our case, DD will be starting 9th next month while she's still 12.  Four years of high school means she'll graduate at 16.  What if we decide she's not ready to go away to college at 16?  If we don't graduate her, then she'll end up with a fifth year of high school.  We can't go back and call 9th grade 8th grade at that point because she'll have dual enrollment credits and such so there will be record of her grade level (I assume).  So how do you handle an extra year after high school if you still want the kid to be able to enter college as a freshman and still qualify for scholarships, etc.?

 

Keep records. You do not have to decide which year is "9th grade"  and which year she'll graduate until it is time for the PSAT in Junior year: that's the Rubicon, because that you need to declare if you want your kid to have a shot at National Merit.

Keep records and wait how things turn out. You can always renumber your grades.

 

I don't see what DE has to do with grade levels. We did submit a transcript to the university for DD's admission for DE, but they don't care which grade she is in. The college transcript does not have grade levels.

[8filltheheart]

Our DE transcripts do not reference our school information at all. They strictly say how they were classified by university. It didn't contain grade level at all.

 

Fwiw, my kids are in grade level according to age, not classes being taken. So, if even if my my 12 yr old is taking high school level classes, they are still 7th grade. My dd that just finished 9th grade took Latin 3, French 4, Russian 1, alg 2, Russian history, chem, and lit (which was more akin to a college lit class than high school) last yr, but those are her first yr of high school level courses.

[Jenny in Florida]

I don't see what DE has to do with grade levels. We did submit a transcript to the university for DD's admission for DE, but they don't care which grade she is in. The college transcript does not have grade levels.

 

Our community college does require students to be in 11th grade in order to do DE. Typically, when it comes to homeschoolers, they interpret that as meaning the student is 16 years old. However, we made a case for allowing my son to start at 15 because he had logged enough high school credits to qualify for junior standing. 

 

So, I can see that, if a student did dual enrollment at a college with a similar rule, it would be difficult to backtrack after two years and claim that kid was still in high school.

 

In fact, I remember something on the paperwork we signed that said students could do DE there only for the two years they were expected to be in high school. 

[Melissa B]

Why are you calling that year 9th grade? Why not 7th (or 8th) grade? Around here, if you call next year 9th grade and continue that progression you would not be able to dual enroll after your student was 16. You can only dual enroll for the four years of high school. And you can't change your mind once you've declared your grade.

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

My son is not there yet. If he continues in the same way he is currently heading he would be having junior status and DE credits beginning at 14. That means graduating at 16. He cannot begin DE until junior standing in our state, or he would begin sooner. If we were going to try and extend high school, we would be forced into a choice of three options: graduating high school after his AA has been obtained (weird!), not receiving his AA and thus just having credits (not financially responsible), or waiting for DE until he is two years out from when he would like to graduate.

 

There were no issues with early graduation when he wanted to go local to a state school. However, he now wants to go Ivy. There is no way to make him as competitive at 16 as he would be at 18. As such, he is now extending high school by not beginning till his aged peers when it comes to transcripts. If he goes to college early it will be through either student loan or our family paying for it before DE.

 

The result is nineth grade looks ridiculous. Much like 8 talked about above, the courses are easily advanced junior level. As much as Ds could probably handle CC at twelve it is just plain not in his best long term interests, because it directly puts an end date on graduation. That is the trade off for free state funds.

[8filltheheart]

Just wanted to share one more thought, just bc a university has a policy (I don't know about CCs bc we didn't use CCs), it does not mean that there is no way around the policy. We moved across the country in the middle of our ds's 11th grade yr, so I had to do this twice. The university where ds first DE does not allow any DE until 2nd semester jr yr. The 2nd university doesn't allow DE until sr yr and their policy stipulates students may only select ONE class from a given list.

 

Don't simply accept the answer from a generic question inquiry. Make an in person appt with the registrar's office and have your paperwork in order. We presented the first university a compelling case by demonstrating he exceeded their admission criteria and that he had completed all available options for high school students via AP coursework. We had his AP scores with us and the exact classes he wanted to take. The registrar said ok and admitted him.

 

The second university was a little more difficult bc I had to initiate contact via phone bc we were still living in the other state. I was trying to get things approved for admission for spring semester. I called the admissions office and was initially told it was not an option. I politely inquired if she would please look at his application if I faxed her all of his information. She said she would look at it but it was unlikely to change the answer. I faxed her his transcripts from our homeschool, an unofficial university transcript bc his current courses were in progress so no grades, his test scores, and letters from his current professors describing his abilities as a student and his grades in their classes at that point. The math professor wrote that ds was in the top 1% of students he had ever taught.

 

After she had the faxed material, she contacted me and told me she had arranged for a meeting with the admissions team and registrar. She contacted me after the meeting and told me that the consensus was that they would him allow him to enroll bc he had exceeded the local CC offerings and that the only educational avenue that would meet his academic needs was the university. He has been able to take whatever courses he has needed.

 

All that to say, just bc they have a policy does not mean it is 100% inflexible.

 

Also, with all the opencourseware available, meeting their academic needs at home until they surpass all AP level equivalencies when they are younger is getting easier. No telling what will be available in another 2-3 yrs.

[maize]

My son is not there yet. If he continues in the same way he is currently heading he would be having junior status and DE credits beginning at 14. That means graduating at 16. He cannot begin DE until junior standing in our state, or he would begin sooner. If we were going to try and extend high school, we would be forced into a choice of three options: graduating high school after his AA has been obtained (weird!), not receiving his AA and thus just having credits (not financially responsible), or waiting for DE until he is two years out from when he would like to graduate.

 

There were no issues with early graduation when he wanted to go local to a state school. However, he now wants to go Ivy. There is no way to make him as competitive at 16 as he would be at 18. As such, he is now extending high school by not beginning till his aged peers when it comes to transcripts. If he goes to college early it will be through either student loan or our family paying for it before DE.

 

The result is nineth grade looks ridiculous. Much like 8 talked about above, the courses are easily advanced junior level. As much as Ds could probably handle CC at twelve it is just plain not in his best long term interests, because it directly puts an end date on graduation. That is the trade off for free state funds.

I don't know why graduating high school with his AA completed would be weird. My state actively encourages students to complete an AA while in high school, and offers incentive scholarships to those who do. My understanding is that this is not an uncommon path here for advanced students.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I don't know why graduating high school with his AA completed would be weird. My state actively encourages students to complete an AA while in high school, and offers incentive scholarships to those who do. My understanding is that this is not an uncommon path here for advanced students.

I meant receiving his associates then doing another year of high school before being considered a graduate of high school. It would be weird for the CC to consider him academically competant for a junior college degree, but for our homeschool to not have granted a diploma until after another full year. If my son began the community college when he was academically able to, his AA would be achieved long before I felt him able maturity wise to travel and live on the other side of the country.

 

Ds wants to graduate high school with his AA. Right now the decision is just whether to do that at 16 or 18. We cannot really undo the choice once it has been made.

 

I was actually pulled from DE when I was a senior in high school because I was going to acquire my AA six months before my high school diploma. It was considered socially inappropriate by the state who was paying my tuition. I think the rule might have changed now, but I do not know.

[kiana]

Out of curiosity, EoO, why not just omit one minor requirement for the AA (say, PE, or something similar) until the last semester before you want him to graduate? That way they'd have the same date.

 

I know a fair few people who took 3 years at a CC to get an AA because they wanted to add in extra preparatory courses for a major.

[EndOfOrdinary]

We could pay for the singular PE credit, but have been told it might raise red flags as to why there is such a large gap.

 

I think it seems perfectly reasonable to say that maturity of a young boy was the deciding factor in when to graduate, but we have been told it could reflect negatively on his chances. We do not want him to be seen as unable to handle the college environment and have been advised that might be exactly how it comes across. Legitimacy is an issue quite frequently with the whole advanced while homeschooling thing.

[chiguirre]

Ds wants to graduate high school with his AA. Right now the decision is just whether to do that at 16 or 18. We cannot really undo the choice once it has been made.

 

How about splitting the difference and having him graduate at 17?

 

[regentrude]

My son is not there yet. If he continues in the same way he is currently heading he would be having junior status and DE credits beginning at 14. That means graduating at 16. He cannot begin DE until junior standing in our state, or he would begin sooner. If we were going to try and extend high school, we would be forced into a choice of three options: graduating high school after his AA has been obtained (weird!), not receiving his AA and thus just having credits (not financially responsible), or waiting for DE until he is two years out from when he would like to graduate.

 

 

I do not understand the bolded. What financial difference does it make whether he achieves his AA or whether he only takes the credit and transfers it? Do you get free tuition if, and only if, the student completes the AA?

[EndOfOrdinary]

I do not understand the bolded. What financial difference does it make whether he achieves his AA or whether he only takes the credit and transfers it? Do you get free tuition if, and only if, the student completes the AA?

No. We get the tuition regardless. However, the credits only really transfer well if the degree is completed. Sometimes a few will transfer as general elective credit, and basic 101s transfer, but in general most people lose more than gain without the degree completed. If he tried to transfer in state and knew the school he wanted to transfer to along with the major, then no big deal. Since our state (as well as the neighboring state) have a universal transfer program which is based on having an AA, it leaves those who do not completely obtain it sort of in the lurch.

 

From all those we have talked to, the system of DE here is set up for a very mainstream situation. Even the technical CC is set up for a very mainstream situation. It is a small town CC.

[angela in ohio]

My freshman enrolled last year under a Jr/Sr-only DE policy. :D Definitely room for wiggling here.

[Jenny in Florida]

Also, with all the opencourseware available, meeting their academic needs at home until they surpass all AP level equivalencies when they are younger is getting easier. No telling what will be available in another 2-3 yrs.

 

I'm sure it's gotten better, but my daughter found the online opencourseware stuff very unfulfilling, because it offered no meaningful interaction with an actual instructor or academic peers.

 

My son, who is a VERY social being, intensely dislikes being chained to computer plugging away alone for extended periods of time. He was much happier at the community college, although the classes were far from challenging, because he got to talk to real people.

 

Mind you, I'm taking a couple of opencourseware classes now to boost my own resume and am enjoying them a lot. But whether such things are a good answer for any individual depends on a whole lot of factors.

[Jenny in Florida]

I know a fair few people who took 3 years at a CC to get an AA because they wanted to add in extra preparatory courses for a major.

 

It depends on the policies of the state and college, but here students may be dual enrolled for just two years. Period. 

[Mom22ns]

It depends on the policies of the state and college, but here students may be dual enrolled for just two years. Period. 

 

:eek:  I hadn't heard of a time restriction on dual enrollment. I'm glad we don't have that issue. Of course, we don't get free tuition either, so I guess they have no reason to limit us.

[DragonFaerie]

Thanks so much for the info, everyone.  Y'all are giving me a lot to consider.  But luckily, it sounds like I don't have to make any hard and fast decisions for at least another couple of years.

[Jenny in Florida]

:eek:  I hadn't heard of a time restriction on dual enrollment. I'm glad we don't have that issue. Of course, we don't get free tuition either, so I guess they have no reason to limit us.

 

Yep, it's yet another reason why "it depends" is probably the safest answer for parents trying to advise their kids on these issues. If our local community college had different rules, my son might well have made a different decision about when to graduate. For him, in his specific situation, with his goals and temperament, level of maturity and academic capability, as well as the dual enrollment option to which he had access, simply graduating him when he had met our requirements and letting him move on seems like the best choice.