If you used to be a Christian..

[klinkermom]

.....or are somewhere in between believing and not believing, how did/do you cope? I honestly don't know how to do this. 99% of my friends/family are conservative Christians. We belong to a Christian co-op. My husband used to be Christian, but is a recent convert to atheism (and as I type this, he's at an atheist support group because he feels so alone in all this). He hasn't "come out of the closet" to my family or his, but he has to our children. Our kids respect him and he's very persuasive, so it's probably only a matter of time until they don't believe (dd is already an atheist). It doesn't help that we haven't gone to church in years. He has put so many doubts in my head that I don't feel like a Christian anymore, but I believe enough to not call myself an atheist. It's a lonely and confusing place to be.

[zoobie]

Is there a UU church in your area? It might help you sort out your thoughts and give you a support group.

[unsinkable]

Lots of great advice in this thread:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/511425-feeling-lost-as-a-parent-without-christianity/

[milovany]

I don't have an answer but just wanted to say I'm sorry it's a confusing and difficult time for you. 

[chiguirre]

It depends on where you live. If the Christian coop is the only game in town, I'd make sure that your kids know to keep their opinions to themselves. If there are inclusive options, join them. If you think your family will cut you off, I wouldn't mention your change of heart. In the longer term, you might want to move to a less religious area. The northeast is very different from the south. It's very rare (and considered rude) for someone to ask about your religious beliefs or even invite you to their church.

 

Good luck!

[chiguirre]

Lots of great advice in this thread:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/511425-feeling-lost-as-a-parent-without-christianity/

The OP started that thread too.

 

I'm sorry you're having such a rough time klinkermom. You just need to keep in mind that you will find your way through to a better frame of mind.

[Lady Florida.]

I'm so sorry. I don't have an answer for you. My friendships are/were with people who keep their beliefs private and none of our family members are very religious, so I didn't need to find a way to cope once I let go of my beliefs. I'm fortunate to live in an area with a large number of secular homeschoolers.

 

I agree with trying out a UU. church. I didn't feel the need for a replacement but many people do and many find comfort in the fellowship at a UU church.

[Guest inoubliable]

No answer here, either. :( Just wanted to say that I hope you find a place where you ARE comfortable. There are a lot of folks here who are happy to answer questions about UU churches or atheism (myself included) or agnosticism. Plenty of others to answer questions about keeping faith, if that's where you think you are headed. New social group is up if you think posting there might get you the answers you're looking for. (http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/groups/226-non-believers-social-group)

[klinkermom]

I'm so sorry. I don't have an answer for you. My friendships are/were with people who keep their beliefs private and none of our family members are very religious, so I didn't need to find a way to cope once I let go of my beliefs. I'm fortunate to live in an area with a large number of secular homeschoolers.

 

I agree with trying out a UU. church. I didn't feel the need for a replacement but many people do and many find comfort in the fellowship at a UU church.

I'm in the south, and anyone here who's not a Christian is an outcast. My family is very verbal about their beliefs (and brother-in-law is a deacon). My mom gave me the book Jesus Calling for my last birthday. Telling her what I'm going through would devastate her, and I just can't hurt her like that. In her mind, anyone who doesn't believe is headed to hell. I don't think she would ever have a restful night of sleep again if she found out (same goes for my dad).

There is a UU church here - maybe I should go (disguised)!

[klinkermom]

The OP started that thread too.

 

I'm sorry you're having such a rough time klinkermom. You just need to keep in mind that you will find your way through to a better frame of mind.

Thank you, Chiguirre. Yes, that was my thread. Our marriage has improved, but my state of mind hasn't. There was a lot of good advice, but the thread was derailed so I thought I'd try again from a different angle. I don't know anyone IRL who's been through this, so I appreciate all the advice.

[Catwoman]

.....or are somewhere in between believing and not believing, how did/do you cope? I honestly don't know how to do this. 99% of my friends/family are conservative Christians. We belong to a Christian co-op. My husband used to be Christian, but is a recent convert to atheism (and as I type this, he's at an atheist support group because he feels so alone in all this). He hasn't "come out of the closet" to my family or his, but he has to our children. Our kids respect him and he's very persuasive, so it's probably only a matter of time until they don't believe (dd is already an atheist). It doesn't help that we haven't gone to church in years. He has put so many doubts in my head that I don't feel like a Christian anymore, but I believe enough to not call myself an atheist. It's a lonely and confusing place to be.

You have posted in the past about this same issue and then never returned to the forum afterward.

 

Are you planning to hang around for a while this time?

[Flowing Brook]

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."  There is a saying "the Bible will shed a lot of light on those commentaries." Please get the Bible out and study it. Ask God to guide you and to show you the truth. The Bible says "Seek and ye shall find"

 

[speedmom4]

Are you wanting to hold onto your Christian beliefs or are you leaning more towards agnosticism or atheism?

My biggest piece of advice is to be true to yourself and when you're strong enough "come out" to your family. I feel like I sort of understand where you're coming from. I also live in an area where "everyone" is an evangelical Protestant Christian. To make a long story short I knew I was supposed to go back to the Catholic Church. I was entrenched in a Pentecostal church where most people thought Catholics weren't even Christians. My husband and kids were Protestant, my husband's whole family is very vocally Pentecostal. But finally I knew I had to go where my heart was leading and I was willing to accept the consequences. It was more difficult in some ways but way more rewarding in other ways. Ultimately my husband and two kids came with me but our relationship with my husband's family is strained. I've lost contact with friends and some have politely distanced themselves. Some have said outright offensive remarks. But being authentic and genuine in my life has brought a sense of peace I didn't know existed. I hope you find that peace as well.

 

(((Hugs)))

 

Elise in NC

[livetoread]

It can be a lonely place. I'm sorry. I haven't believed for several years now, but I haven't made a big announcement or anything with my family. We just talk about other things, and when they start talking about their own faith, I just listen. Finding some people who will accept where ever you are helps so much.

 

Don't rule out your conservative Christian friends completely either. You might still have enough in common and at least some might be able to at least ignore that part of your life and focus instead on what you share. Some might flip out and be rejecting if they knew, but some just might surprise you. Many people have doubts that they hide and struggle with quietly. You are not as alone as it feels at times.

[klinkermom]

You have posted in the past about this same issue and then never returned to the forum afterward.

 

Are you planning to hang around for a while this time?

Oh, I'm around - I just don't post. I was put on the defensive in that thread, and what had started out as a comfort, quickly turned into a stress I didn't need.

[chiguirre]

I'm in the south, and anyone here who's not a Christian is an outcast. My family is very verbal about their beliefs (and brother-in-law is a deacon). My mom gave me the book Jesus Calling for my last birthday. Telling her what I'm going through would devastate her, and I just can't hurt her like that. In her mind, anyone who doesn't believe is headed to hell. I don't think she would ever have a restful night of sleep again if she found out (same goes for my dad).

There is a UU church here - maybe I should go (disguised)!

 

IMHO, don't tell your family. If it's going to cause them so much worry, just go with the flow. You'll have to see if you can get your dh and kids on board the "don't upset grandma" train. Only you can know your situation and what's feasible for you.

 

In my family, nobody really cares what you believe as long as you have big Christening and First Communion parties. Catholicism is a deeply ingrained part of our family culture, but I suspect most of my relatives don't really care very much about the theology. They just like the cultural trappings and I can get on board with that. Of course, your family sounds like they take their religion a lot more seriously. Could you go along with the cultural trappings without having to really express an opinion as to the veracity of their faith? Can you go to church with them on Christmas and Easter and call it good? Will they notice that your kids haven't done a major milestone event?

 

On top of all the family stuff, you'll have to explore your own beliefs. That's a hard thing to do in the midst of all this turmoil. I realized I didn't believe in Christianity when I was 13 and started reading about other Mediterranean religions. I've never had to deal with the process as an adult and I'm sure that's much harder.

[Catwoman]

I'd forgotten about the old thread, so I went back and read it again. I find it confusing that you are telling us that neither your family nor your dh's family knows what's going on, yet back in April you posted that your sister not only knew, but wasn't crazy about your family hanging out with her family for fear her kids would stop believing, too :

 

#50 klinkermom

Hive Mind Larvae

 

Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:59 PM

Thank you for the replies. It is rudeness, and with my husband not "on board" anymore, I feel defeated. Someone on this thread mentioned that the antagonism probably stems from the recent "realization" they've had, and I do think that has a lot to do with it. I've had lots of talks with dh, and it isn't as bad as it used to be. I think the reason is because I've started questioning faith myself.

 

I hate this place I'm in - not knowing what to believe anymore. It is depressing and lonely, and I'd give just about anything to go back 5 years to a time when my husband and I both believed and prayed with our kids and took them to church. I want the community and love of a church family, and I don't want to be shunned by everyone we know. Even my sister isn't crazy about us hanging out with her family for fear that her kids will stop believing too. Forgive me - I know I'm being childish, but when I said my world turned upside down, it wasn't an exaggeration. This is not something I feel I can share with friends right now, so it's really nice to be able to talk about it -even with strangers!

I hope you will clarify what's really going on here, because I'm sure many people would like to help you find a way to deal with what is undoubtedly a very difficult situation, but if you're going to change your story, you're going to have a tough time gaining sympathy.

 

I'm bringing this up because I'm sure I'm not the only person re-reading that thread, and I wanted to give you a chance to clarify.

[Guest inoubliable]

She said her husband hadn't come out to his family or hers. I took that to mean she was only talking about family members not knowing what's going on with her husband. She only mentioned specifically not telling her parents in this thread. I took that to mean that she was only talking about her parents - that doesn't mean she hasn't told her sister as she said in the other thread. 

Why jump on her and put her on the defensive again? 

[Catwoman]

She said her husband hadn't come out to his family or hers. I took that to mean she was only talking about family members not knowing what's going on with her husband. She only mentioned specifically not telling her parents in this thread. I took that to mean that she was only talking about her parents - that doesn't mean she hasn't told her sister as she said in the other thread. 

Why jump on her and put her on the defensive again?

 

I'm wondering what's going on, because the last I heard, a sister is most certainly a family member, and she posted in this thread that neither her family nor her dh's family knows anything about it.

 

It's a pretty big inconsistency.

[Guest inoubliable]

I'm wondering what's going on, because the last I heard, a sister is most certainly a family member, and she posted in this thread that neither her family nor her dh's family knows anything about it.

 

It's a pretty big inconsistency.

 

But she was saying that her *husband* hadn't come out to her family or his. She certainly could have told her sister about her *own* questioning. KWIM? I don't think there's any inconsistency at all here. 

 

 

[Catwoman]

But she was saying that her *husband* hadn't come out to her family or his. She certainly could have told her sister about her *own* questioning. KWIM? I don't think there's any inconsistency at all here.

 

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

[Guest inoubliable]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

 

LOL. Apparently. :)

 

 

OP, I hope you haven't felt like you needed to go back into lurker mode like you did the last time. If you don't feel comfy on the chat board, the Social Group I linked earlier is open to anyone who wants to join and people there are happy to chime in and answer questions from a non-believer stance. 

[StephanieZ]

I'm in the south, and anyone here who's not a Christian is an outcast. My family is very verbal about their beliefs (and brother-in-law is a deacon). My mom gave me the book Jesus Calling for my last birthday. Telling her what I'm going through would devastate her, and I just can't hurt her like that. In her mind, anyone who doesn't believe is headed to hell. I don't think she would ever have a restful night of sleep again if she found out (same goes for my dad).

There is a UU church here - maybe I should go (disguised)!

 

Obviously, if there is a UU church . . . with cars in the lot Sunday mornings . . . then non-Christians are not actually outcasts where you live!

 

:)

 

You need to get out and meet new people who aren't all tied up in the church your husband has disavowed and you are wavering on. There are lots of great people in all places with all sorts of opinions. Even the reddest red state has some liberals . . . and even the bluest blue state has some conservatives . . . Same with religion. You just need to meet some OTHER people. That doesn't mean you have to lose all your old friends; most/many will still love you all even if you have differing beliefs. I've lived in the south. I've lived in Utah. I've lived all sorts of places that made me an oddball, but I've always found some like minded folks. So long as you have a nice handful of likeminded friends, you'll feel less isolated.

 

FWIW, I am 90% athiest, 10% Episcopal. My kids and dh are probably similar numbers . . . I attend our Episcopal Church in order to take my elderly mom and provide her with the sense of community that having family with you provides . . . (along with one or both our girls, who are more tolerant of religion than the guys in the family) . . . I've known these folks for a decade, as we were regular members for several years before dropping off the radar a few years ago . . . and I readily admit my 90% atheist views (when prompted, not during services, lol) . . . and not ONE of them, including the priest or deacon have ever batted an eye at me admitting that, and still attending (to be there for my mom with Alzheimer's). I find it increasingly irritating to listen to the hypocritical rants about helping others (when not many do much at all to help my mom, whose needs are small, just a friendly greeting . . .) and the magical thinking stuff, but I do it for my mom . . . and I increasingly appreciate the tolerance of the others there who don't seem to mind me showing up just for my mom . . . I stopped taking Communion a few months ago when I was particularly disheartened at the lack of caring shown by Mom's old church (also Episcopal, in her former hometown before moving here with us a few months ago -- this pushed me over from 70% to 90% atheist, and, TBH, the whole Alzheimer's thing took me from 20% atheist to 90% atheist over the past 2 years . . . ) . . . and I just couldn't do it any more. I guess the 10% believer in me as well as my respect for the people who DO believe doesn't allow me to be completely disrespectful by taking a sacrament I don't believe is true . . . So, I don't take it, which is really obvious in an "open table" Episcopal church (not like a Catholic church where it is routine to have some folks not partaking each week . . .) I don't generally say the prayers or sing, either. (Sometimes I make up disrespectful lyrics in my head when I am feeling particularly irked . . . ) I just sit respectfully, listen to the speakers, find all the pages for my mom . . . stand up, kneel, sit, stand, hug, shake hands, etc. and that's about it. I wondered at first if anyone would show evidence of being offended or bothered by my obvious non participation, but, no one has. I think this is some evidence that no one there really minds what I do or don't believe . . . and I share this to offer you some assurance that at least some/many Christians (more the liberals, but I have plenty of Conservative Christian friends, too), aren't going to shun you for having different beliefs. 

[msrift]

You might want to look into Recovering From Religion. They have online support groups and a hotline in the works. It can be a truly isolating experience. I believe several former (and some still closeted) ministers regularly participate.

[klinkermom]

To clarify: My sister and her husband know about my husband being an atheist, but they have no idea that I am doubting MY beliefs. Both of them have kept my husband's atheism to themselves. I said that my husband hasn't come out of the closet because HE hasn't - I was the one who told my sister and her husband, not him. So, when I say my family doesn't know -it's that they don't know about MY confusion. My parents also don't know about husband's atheism. My sister and her husband think it's only my dh and daughter who are not "on board".

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is a generic enough question that I think people can just answer without danger of being sucked in if we don't have a substantiated resume with references.  

 

OP - I don't have any suggestions for you but do have a couple of generic questions.  Are you wanting support in the sense of secular friends and social outlets?  Or are you wanting support in the sense of wanting an avenue to explore your own thoughts on your faith?

[klinkermom]

LOL. Apparently. :)

 

 

OP, I hope you haven't felt like you needed to go back into lurker mode like you did the last time. If you don't feel comfy on the chat board, the Social Group I linked earlier is open to anyone who wants to join and people there are happy to chime in and answer questions from a non-believer stance.

Thank you :)

[TCB]

I'm wondering what's going on, because the last I heard, a sister is most certainly a family member, and she posted in this thread that neither her family nor her dh's family knows anything about it.

 

It's a pretty big inconsistency.

 

 

This seems pretty confrontational and I'm not sure why you'd feel that way. If you have something to say to help her, good, if not why not just let others and ignore this thread.

[Catwoman]

This seems pretty confrontational and I'm not sure why you'd feel that way. If you have something to say to help her, good, if not why not just let others and ignore this thread.

I had a question about what appeared to be an inconsistency, so I asked her about it. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that, but I don't feel I did anything wrong.

 

Since she was referring to the exact same issue she addressed in her earlier posts, I was curious as to why the story seemed to have changed.

[poppy]

I would also suggest the UU church. You need friends right now, and to make this a positive journey. Because otherwise, it's all only about what you've lost and who you've disappointed.

 

The nice thing about UU is that if your path winds up taking you back to the Christian faith, that is fine. You will be supported.

 

If your values do not align with UU, then I would probably suggest some self-study.  Values that would not fit in at a UU church would include not being accepting of other faiths, including ideas like Buddhism. Being uncomfortable with secularism as part of a church service, such as having a reading from a novel instead of The Bible.  Being anti-gay. Being skeptical of climate change. And similar values. It is an apologetically liberal faith.

[albeto.]

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."  There is a saying "the Bible will shed a lot of light on those commentaries." Please get the Bible out and study it. Ask God to guide you and to show you the truth. The Bible says "Seek and ye shall find"

 

On the off chance the OP hasn't tried that already, perhaps you might consider the possibility that faith can also be lost even when one sincerely fights to keep it. It was my experience, and reflects the stories of countless people I know as well. 

 

For me, and I'm just throwing this out as an example for the sake of fine-tuning the OP's needs here (so I'll offer myself as target practice if desired), but for me, I'd looked to the scriptures, I prayed about my doubts, I was determined to maintain my loyalty to a god I was sure existed even after I could no longer "feel" his presence. I studied the bible, I studied the words of wisdom of others who spent lifetimes studying the bible. I learned as much as I could from those who had unshakable faith. I lived by faith not by sight for a time, but the doubts were never satisfied for long. Eventually I realized when they were satisfied, it was really a matter of my emotions feeling stronger, confident, pleasure with the idea. When those emotions were not there for me, I had nothing but cold, hard facts. I figured that was an appropriate way to approach it because I had believed that even though it couldn't be "proven" by reason alone, it was nevertheless, a reasonable faith. 

 

But the questions were never satisfying, and I realized that the reasons all ended up in one place - faith. One has to choose to believe it, because all the answers come down to "believe it on faith."

 

Not everyone can make that choice. If they could, people like the OP, people who are under enormous pressure to maintain their faith, would do so willingly, eagerly. It's more reasonable to conclude that the faith simply doesn't offer satisfactory answers for everyone, even if it once did.

 

That can shake someone's entire world because feeling betrayed by the ones you trust the most to care for the most precious thing you have - hope - can make you feel enormously vulnerable intellectually as well as emotionally. Ultimately, you hope the people who are steering you in your faith are trustworthy. You hope that the sacrifices you make today will be worth it later. But here's the scary thing - this hope all rests in what happens after we take our last breath. After life. What if we've been putting our hope in the wrong thing? What if the sacrifices we make are not only never going to benefit us, but are in some way detrimental to ourselves and to those we love? What if this faith is no more credible than every other faith out there - the ones we easily dismiss because the stories sound unbelievable, and the promises are not tempting? 

 

I don't think it's kind to say to a person, just do what I did. I think it's kind to say, "What do you want?" And go from there.

[TCB]

I had a question about what appeared to be an inconsistency, so I asked her about it. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that, but I don't feel I did anything wrong.

 

Since she was referring to the exact same issue she addressed in her earlier posts, I was curious as to why the story seemed to have changed.

 

 

I guess it's hard to read the tone in a post sometimes, and easy to leap to a wrong conclusion.

[elegantlion]

What I learned to do was be more reserved in who I let know the inner workings of my heart & soul. To the people I know would be devastated, I don't discuss it. If they bring it up, I let them guide the conversation and don't let on about my doubt. I have a family member who recently proclaimed himself an agnostic, so I can discuss things with him. It's not being fake, it's being protective. I really not in the mood to get those looks of sympathy and those vague "we'll pray for you statements" if I come out about my faith journey. Here's the thing, it's my journey, not theirs. 

 

As far as kids, my son knows which family members he can discuss religion with and those who it's a bad idea to bring up regardless of you beliefs. 

[Anacharsis]

.....or are somewhere in between believing and not believing, how did/do you cope? I honestly don't know how to do this. 99% of my friends/family are conservative Christians. We belong to a Christian co-op. My husband used to be Christian, but is a recent convert to atheism (and as I type this, he's at an atheist support group because he feels so alone in all this). He hasn't "come out of the closet" to my family or his, but he has to our children. Our kids respect him and he's very persuasive, so it's probably only a matter of time until they don't believe (dd is already an atheist). It doesn't help that we haven't gone to church in years. He has put so many doubts in my head that I don't feel like a Christian anymore, but I believe enough to not call myself an atheist. It's a lonely and confusing place to be.

 

I believe Christian philosophy can be separated from the question of Christ's divinity, just the same way that one can learn from the Greeks without having to know for certain whether a boy named Zeus, born in Crete, was really a god; it is possible to remain agnostic about the divinity of Christ while still believing that his moral teachings have enduring value -- this was the approach the Deists took, and it may be a good middle ground if your husband's struggle is over divinity rather than Christian philosophy.

[lifesadream83]

I do feel sorry for you going through this. Hopefully you are not in the south because I have found it harder here than any where. I came out as a non believer about 2 or 3 years ago now. I am happier than before but I do not have many like minded friends so I feel alone often. Someone is always trying to convert us and our kids.... I hate when they try to convert my child passionately. If you don't use secular homeschool materials yet wit til you try to find some...don't get me wrong there are some...just not as many.

[Joanne]

 

I stopped taking Communion a few months ago when I was particularly disheartened at the lack of caring shown by Mom's old church (also Episcopal, in her former hometown before moving here with us a few months ago -- this pushed me over from 70% to 90% atheist, and, TBH, the whole Alzheimer's thing took me from 20% atheist to 90% atheist over the past 2 years . . . ) . . . and I just couldn't do it any more. I guess the 10% believer in me as well as my respect for the people who DO believe doesn't allow me to be completely disrespectful

My faith lapse was a process, finalized by very similar circumstances. Change a few pronouns and diseases and it is my story.

 

My then DH was in and out of the hospital weekly. My dd had a disease. But "god" got the glory for healing - others. And all I got was trite, predictable answers about God's choice to heal or not.

 

Add to that the church's response to suicidal step dad. We has been attending for a few years - and nothing.

 

I was done. Like albeto. I tried (for years) what puddles suggested - and nothing. It is one thing to admit that many people of faith has dry spells. It is another to trot out scripture implying that an admitted, practicing Christian didn't already DO that.

 

OP, it can be a lonely place. I looked for a label, but none fit. I am better now but it took some time: I lost friends over it.

[Audrey]

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."  There is a saying "the Bible will shed a lot of light on those commentaries." Please get the Bible out and study it. Ask God to guide you and to show you the truth. The Bible says "Seek and ye shall find"

 

 

Yikes.  No!

 

If you really want to push a person who is questioning and seeking away from Christianity, have them read the Bible.  Over and over and over again, it is many an atheist who will tell you that reading and re-reading the Bible became the final coffin nails of whatever belief they had left.

[sbgrace]

OP, I'm not sure exactly if you're still struggling with your faith in the face of questions, or if you're just struggling with feeling alone in leaving it. It sort of sounds like you haven't completely decided, but you're understandably feeling isolated. I am putting myself in your place and it would be so hard to keep this a secret from people you love. I'm sorry you're in that situation.

 

I really hope you find peace either way.

 

There is a book by Greg Boyd called Benefit of the Doubt. If you are struggling with abandoning vs. possibly rebuilding a wrecked faith, it might help you. It's a really good book, and I think it might be helpful to clarify your thoughts even if you decide to ultimately leave. http://www.amazon.com/Benefit-Doubt-Breaking-Idol-Certainty/dp/0801014921

 

I'm sorry people feel the need to question/attack.

 

[toawh]

Been in your shoes. My advice, embrace the adventure of life. Don't worry about what category you fit into or will belong to, enjoy the journey. Enjoy the freedoms that come with less dogmatism. Keep your old friends but slowly make new friends too. The old friends who are true will stick around. Don't let the religious restrictions of your friends dictate your actions, I don't really see the need to "come out of the closet" unless you have some understanding that you are only friends for religious support. Let your kids make their own choices and conclusions. If you need to vocalize your emotions or just have a person detached from your situation hear your difficulties from time to time, you can pm me. Saying the things I was thinking but couldn't dare bring up around my old friends was a huge stress relief for me.

[klinkermom]

Are you wanting to hold onto your Christian beliefs or are you leaning more towards agnosticism or atheism?

 

 

Elise in NC

I think I'm pretty firmly planted on the fence. The crazy thing is that when I'm around Christians, I feel more like an atheist, and when I'm around atheists, I feel more like a Christian. For a long time my prayer has been for God to reveal himself to me. I keep looking and waiting - but He is silent.

 

Not too long ago, a friend lost something very dear and valuable to her outside my house. We had been many places outside, and this item was tiny - really tiny. So the cliche of a needle in a haystack would definitely describe it. Anyway, as we were looking, I prayed, God, this would be a perfect time to reveal yourself -to take away my doubt. Please show me where it is. Well, we searched a long time -and nothing. That night, I woke up at 4:00 AM with a very clear "thought" (possible I dreamed it, but not sure). The thought was a very specific place outside that we had been together. I just knew God was telling me where that item was! I can't tell you how excited I was -to tears, really, thinking God loved me and he really did exist!

 

I couldn't wait until morning, so I got a flashlight and started the long walk to this place just knowing I would find it. My mustard seed faith could have moved mountains! I remember thinking... OK God, show me where it is.... And later...OK God, even if it's not here, could you just put it here? This is your chance... Show me you're real! And later... You created the universe and you can't give me this little thing I want more than anything I've ever wanted??? (The reassurance of his existence -not the item). I searched 2 and 1/2 hours for that d*** thing, and nothing. Pathetic, isn't it? I was crushed.

 

"Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?" I asked for a crumb and was given a boulder. Now I know what the Christians are thinking at this point, because I thought it too.... God's ways are higher than our ways, you shall not put The Lord your God to the test, etc. but honestly, I'm sick of thinking up excuses for God... If he heals, God answered our prayers! If He doesn't heal, well, they're in a better place, God has a plan, sometimes God says no, blah blah blah. That morning, I was definitely falling on the atheist side.

 

Since then, I go back and forth. It's quite maddening, really. I find myself still praying at times, hoping He's real and he hears me, but my mustard seed faith is even smaller now. Not sure I'll ever be able to commit either way - or that I even need to... Regardless, it's a lonely place to be.

[8circles]

I am you.

 

I think I'm pretty firmly planted on the fence. The crazy thing is that when I'm around Christians, I feel more like an atheist, and when I'm around atheists, I feel more like a Christian. For a long time my prayer has been for God to reveal himself to me. I keep looking and waiting - but He is silent.

 

Not too long ago, a friend lost something very dear and valuable to her outside my house. We had been many places outside, and this item was tiny - really tiny. So the cliche of a needle in a haystack would definitely describe it. Anyway, as we were looking, I prayed, God, this would be a perfect time to reveal yourself -to take away my doubt. Please show me where it is. Well, we searched a long time -and nothing. That night, I woke up at 4:00 AM with a very clear "thought" (possible I dreamed it, but not sure). The thought was a very specific place outside that we had been together. I just knew God was telling me where that item was! I can't tell you how excited I was -to tears, really, thinking God loved me and he really did exist!

 

I couldn't wait until morning, so I got a flashlight and started the long walk to this place just knowing I would find it. My mustard seed faith could have moved mountains! I remember thinking... OK God, show me where it is.... And later...OK God, even if it's not here, could you just put it here? This is your chance... Show me you're real! And later... You created the universe and you can't give me this little thing I want more than anything I've ever wanted??? (The reassurance of his existence -not the item). I searched 2 and 1/2 hours for that d*** thing, and nothing. Pathetic, isn't it? I was crushed.

 

"Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?" I asked for a crumb and was given a boulder. Now I know what the Christians are thinking at this point, because I thought it too.... God's ways are higher than our ways, you shall not put The Lord your God to the test, etc. but honestly, I'm sick of thinking up excuses for God... If he heals, God answered our prayers! If He doesn't heal, well, they're in a better place, God has a plan, sometimes God says no, blah blah blah. That morning, I was definitely falling on the atheist side.

 

Since then, I go back and forth. It's quite maddening, really. I find myself still praying at times, hoping He's real and he hears me, but my mustard seed faith is even smaller now. Not sure I'll ever be able to commit either way - or that I even need to... Regardless, it's a lonely place to be.

[Pawz4me]

The crazy thing is that when I'm around Christians, I feel more like an atheist, and when I'm around atheists, I feel more like a Christian

 

I know that feeling well.

[J-rap]

 

 

There is a book by Greg Boyd called Benefit of the Doubt. If you are struggling with abandoning vs. possibly rebuilding a wrecked faith, it might help you. It's a really good book, and I think it might be helpful to clarify your thoughts even if you decide to ultimately leave. http://www.amazon.com/Benefit-Doubt-Breaking-Idol-Certainty/dp/0801014921

 

I'm sorry people feel the need to question/attack.

 

Another great book by Greg Boyd is Letters from a Skeptic.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Skeptic-Wrestles-Questions-Christianity/dp/1434799808/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407244465&sr=1-3&keywords=greg+boyd

[Lady Florida.]

I think I'm pretty firmly planted on the fence.

 

Regardless, it's a lonely place to be.

 

There's a new social group for both non-believers and those questioning their beliefs. It might help to read about the journey others have made or are making.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/groups/226-non-believers-and-questioning-group/

[Night Elf]

I think I'm pretty firmly planted on the fence. The crazy thing is that when I'm around Christians, I feel more like an atheist, and when I'm around atheists, I feel more like a Christian. For a long time my prayer has been for God to reveal himself to me. I keep looking and waiting - but He is silent.

 

Me too. I prayed hard for my belief to be bolstered. I prayed with genuine fear because I couldn't stand the thought that I was praying to nothing. I started analyzing everything, wondering if the answer was in front of me but I was not seeing it. Eventually, I just gave up. FWIW, I still pray but I don't expect anything of it. I'm basically talking to myself. I say thank you when something nice happens, and oh shoot I wonder why when something bad happens. My DH and kids are non-believers. I miss being a firm believer. I feel I was a more positive person. I talked a lot to God, and viewed my life as things happening because they were supposed to go that way. Without that belief, I do feel scared and lonely. It's a great big scary world, I guess. Sorry I don't have answers though.

[livetoread]

I hear you. I have a friend who swears the song "Say Something" was written for people losing their faith. Probably not, but it sure fit how I felt at one point. Now I appreciate what I've gained by realizing there probably isn't a loving, powerful deity, but the process can be painful. Once you stop making excuses for why the world doesn't behave like there is a Christian God, it messes with you.

 

I can say that for me, and many others I know, it gets better over time. It helps so much to be gentle with yourself and to give yourself permission to be where you are right now. It's ok not to know, it's ok to straddle that fence and it's ok to hop off if you want. Time helps resolve some of that ambiguity either way.

 

I am now an atheist, but I would be fine with the existence of a loving deity if it wanted to make itself known to me. If it doesn't for reasons I don't understand, that's fine too. I'll just try and leave the world a better place and the rest is beyond me. If that isn't enough for a deity as hard as I've tried to remain a believer, then I have to quibble with the adjective "loving".

[naturemom]

I think I'm pretty firmly planted on the fence. The crazy thing is that when I'm around Christians, I feel more like an atheist, and when I'm around atheists, I feel more like a Christian. For a long time my prayer has been for God to reveal himself to me. I keep looking and waiting - but He is silent.

 

Not too long ago, a friend lost something very dear and valuable to her outside my house. We had been many places outside, and this item was tiny - really tiny. So the cliche of a needle in a haystack would definitely describe it. Anyway, as we were looking, I prayed, God, this would be a perfect time to reveal yourself -to take away my doubt. Please show me where it is. Well, we searched a long time -and nothing. That night, I woke up at 4:00 AM with a very clear "thought" (possible I dreamed it, but not sure). The thought was a very specific place outside that we had been together. I just knew God was telling me where that item was! I can't tell you how excited I was -to tears, really, thinking God loved me and he really did exist!

 

I couldn't wait until morning, so I got a flashlight and started the long walk to this place just knowing I would find it. My mustard seed faith could have moved mountains! I remember thinking... OK God, show me where it is.... And later...OK God, even if it's not here, could you just put it here? This is your chance... Show me you're real! And later... You created the universe and you can't give me this little thing I want more than anything I've ever wanted??? (The reassurance of his existence -not the item). I searched 2 and 1/2 hours for that d*** thing, and nothing. Pathetic, isn't it? I was crushed.

 

"Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?" I asked for a crumb and was given a boulder. Now I know what the Christians are thinking at this point, because I thought it too.... God's ways are higher than our ways, you shall not put The Lord your God to the test, etc. but honestly, I'm sick of thinking up excuses for God... If he heals, God answered our prayers! If He doesn't heal, well, they're in a better place, God has a plan, sometimes God says no, blah blah blah. That morning, I was definitely falling on the atheist side.

 

Since then, I go back and forth. It's quite maddening, really. I find myself still praying at times, hoping He's real and he hears me, but my mustard seed faith is even smaller now. Not sure I'll ever be able to commit either way - or that I even need to... Regardless, it's a lonely place to be.

 

I was reading this hoping at the end that you had found it even though it would have meant to you that God existed.  

[Seeking Squirrels]

I struggle with it sometimes. It does feel lonely. Nearly everyone in my life is Christian of some denomination. I haven't yet come out to most of them. Only DH and my best friend know. DH and I are on the same page so that's nice.

 

I cope by talking about it online with people. That's really all I can do right now. IRL I'm completely torn. Part of me is eager to tell people and I want to have those conversations and not feel like I'm hiding. The rest of me is terrified of them finding out because I don't know what they'll say or do. It's hard trying to know when it's safe to come out to someone. I've come very close with a friend I see often. It's a pretty new friendship so it could go either way.

 

I spent many months in the place you describe. Losing faith but believing just enough to hold on. I was terrified to cut that last tiny string because I DID still believe enough to find disbelief scary and unknown. I did finally take that final jump and I am a lot more at peace with where I am now, even with the fear of being found out and loneliness.

[albeto.]

Since then, I go back and forth. It's quite maddening, really. I find myself still praying at times, hoping He's real and he hears me, but my mustard seed faith is even smaller now. Not sure I'll ever be able to commit either way - or that I even need to... Regardless, it's a lonely place to be.

 

I did this for a long time as well. It is a lonely place. It's hard to relate to atheists when that faith is stronger, but it's hard to relate to believers when that faith is dried up. For a long time I studied this concept called "Dark Night of the Soul." This term was coined by a Catholic saint way back in the middle ages, and reflects a difference from the typical bouts of doubt. This "darkness" is extreme - knock you off your feet, distract you from everything else in your life, turn your world upside down kind of thing. The idea is that God withholds his "consolations" from some people as he wishes. These "consolations," or "feelings" or "faith" or "messages" or whatever you may call them, they reflect the things Christians tag as support for faith being based on something real. Removing these "consolations" is done for whatever reason God wants of course, but the practical application is that the believer then has the option of continuing in faith even though his/her faith is gone, or walking away from it. 

 

Anyway, for me, I decided these bouts of darkness, this utter lack of faith was not so much God testing me, but rather my mind making connections about the claims of the faith and recognizing they simply aren't supported. Your prayer and your subsequent faith of a mustard seed is something I can relate to so well. It was something I would find myself doing even after feeling like my faith was gone. My reasoning was that if I trust God to be true to his word, and I did, I should expect this kind of thing to play out as promised. Eventually I stopped trying to convince myself to believe anyway, and one day I asked myself what would be the worst that would happen if I acknowledged to myself I no longer believed this faith I once loved. The answer was a very simple... Nothing. Nothing would happen. My live would be no different. I never did face the things I feared I would face if I lost my faith. I didn't face things like feeling lonely without God hearing my thoughts/prayers, feeling hopeless about death, feeling like morals were nothing more than intellectual fashion trends to be picked up or discarded on a whim, or any of the many other things I had been discouraged to get too close to. The fact was, I had stopped believing those things already.

 

What did change was my perception of events; my understanding of responsibility, justice, cooperation, etc.  I learned to reinterpret those behaviors I had been led to believe were offensive (against God, against society, against moral righteousness), and looked at them as a matter of problem solving. Effective problem solving means additional problems are not created, even for others. This includes social expectations, as we are a cooperative species, and our sense of justice is tied in with our need to cooperate. It made some things I had been taught to identify as offensive, as not offensive at all, and other things I had been taught to be justified, as offensive. 

 

Another thing I learned was to not process these thoughts and questions with my friends who were Christian. Any answer offered opened up a wasps' nest of follow up questions, and I found my friends generally took that as me badgering them, or trying to bait them to get some zinger in. In reality, I was trying to figure out the logical end to any given line of logical thinking. Nevertheless, it burned bridges I never wanted burned. Finding an online community of people questioning faith or those who had given it up (or never had it) was helpful for me for a couple reasons. One is that there was no assumption of a particular theology to be assumed as true. Predestination and free will alike were dissected for scrutiny, the details exposed and analyzed equally. There was no preference for one over the other. In fact, I found any belief was similarly scrutinized, be it religious, superstitious, cultural expectations, personal prejudices, or any of a number of biases people naturally have but are unaware of. These all were similarly analyzed and expected to be defended based on the merits of their points, not on the merits of the sincerity with which they were held or the affection for the person defending them. It gave me practical experience thinking skeptically, and for that I am grateful.

 

That was my experience, and you may find the opposite beneficial for you. In any case, I would encourage you to continue to process your thoughts with people outside your immediate social circle. I think it not only makes things awkward and potentially problematic, but there is a kind of security in online anonymity. You can talk about what's really on your mind without fear of offending or frightening people who love and care about you.