Does anyone have experience with Verticy?

[thundersweet]

Thinking about this for my dyslexic 10yo. I'm mainly looking at if for writing and maybe literature. I am currently using and loving Barton. I would like to hear how Verticy and Barton compare though in the reading/spelling department.

 

Sandy

[Guest]

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[FairProspects]

I have the writing levels (orange and yellow) but I have not used the reading/spelling portion.

 

The return policy is absolutely terrible, so do not touch a thing or open a single shrink wrap if there is any chance it might not work for you or the level placement might be wrong. That is my biggest complaint with Verticy - you have to sign something saying you cannot resell and they refuse to accept any returns, so once you purchase, you are basically stuck with the product. It is an expensive product to not have some kind of try-it-out guarantee or at least a better exchange policy if you are off on placement. We are trying the writing again this year since I already have it and can't return it. :)

[Guest]

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[thundersweet]

Fair, I've read that as well. Why haven't you used the levels you have? Can you tell me what you think?

 

I've done a search and have read some reviews of the program but none recently. I'm just so on the fence. I may just try the writing to get a feel for it.

 

Thanks,

Sandy

[FairProspects]

My son is severely dysgraphic and extremely 2E, so pretty much everything is hit and miss with him. The grammar parts of Verticy are way too easy for him because of the 2E, but some of the writing assignments are impossible because of his dysgraphic word retrieval and organizational issues (journaling, coming up with his own topics, etc.). Because of this weird combination it is nearly impossible to get a good placement that works on his issues at a tolerable challenge without boring him working on basic skills he has already mastered. I'm hoping that he was just too young when we tried it before at 8 1/2-9 and now that he is 10 we can at least do the writing parts and skip the grammar this year.

[thundersweet]

Ok, tell me a little more about dysgraphia. I was thinking this only pertained to handwriting issues. Can dysgraphia also have to do with word retrieval?? I think my son has problems with this. We haven't had him officially diagnosed yet. I used a Barton certified screener that originally diagnosed him with dyslexia. We are planning on an eval later this year.

[thundersweet]

I have been doing lots if reading on dysgraphia. Ugh! I had no idea...

 

Sandy

[Heathermomster]

I have been doing lots if reading on dysgraphia. Ugh! I had no idea...

 

Sandy

Yes, dysgraphia can affect all written output.  Thudersweet, how old is your child?  ETA:  Sorry, I see that your child is 10 yo.

 

With writing, you will need to scaffold your child as they learn by co-writing and scribing.  Have you considered Bravewriter?  Pen has used that with her DS and his writing is impressive.

[thundersweet]

No, I haven't. I have read some here use Bravewriter. I see they have some online classes. Which would be appropriate for a non writer? The only writing he does are the Barton dictation spelling words, phrases, and dictation.

 

Sandy

[FairProspects]

I really have to say though that I think Pen's ds must have a highly verbal profile behind the dysgraphia or struggle more with the physical output rather than thinking in words. My 2nd ds is like that as well and I'm considering Bravewriter for him in the future.

 

My older ds is nothing like that and is also classified as dysgraphic. He bombed the vocab section of the WISC IV because of his issues with word retrieval (difference of 45+%). Bravewriter would be terrible for my older ds. He just has nothing to say and has no idea how to get any words out in any order. I think you really have to know the specific issues associated with your child's diagnosis of dysgraphia to pick the right program. It is not one-size-fits-all for the diagnosis, just like not any one program will get dyslexics reading.

[Pen]

I really have to say though that I think Pen's ds must have a highly verbal profile behind the dysgraphia or struggle more with the physical output rather than thinking in words. ...

 

He has trouble getting words on paper in all ways, physical and otherwise.

 

Methods used to get the initial words down included speaking into a recorder on his own, scribing to me, having him explain things to another relative while I scribed or recorded it, pretending to interview him as if he were a guest expert on a documentary...

 

The online class had a huge range from kids who could write well and copiously to kids who were extremely reluctant or had all sorts of difficulties with it of various types. It seemed to be helpful for most all of them, but I would say the biggest help and gains were for those who had the most difficulty. The best of the group may really have belonged in a higher level class.

 

It was set up to work so that even if just a few words could be gotten down by scribing them to a parent, questions being asked tended to get more and more to come out until there was something to revise and edit. One of the older girls couldn't do anything at all for almost the whole class and then, in response to questions about what was wrong, near the end wrote a lovely, moving, short piece on how painful it was not being able to write.

 

Anyway, if the posts I made about the experience get pulled up again, you can see that my ds progressed from a bare bit of not much to what ultimately (though finished after the class ended) became a 16 page report about Vikings.

 

 

[FairProspects]

Happy to be wrong and glad it worked for your ds. We still can't get past total freezing and tears, whether speaking, writing, or answering a question. :( The only time even discussion, let alone writing, has worked for us is when building with Legos is involved. I'm hoping more maturity will be the answer, but honestly I'm about fed up and dh wants to try school.

[Pen]

Happy to be wrong and glad it worked for your ds. We still can't get past total freezing and tears, whether speaking, writing, or answering a question. :( The only time even discussion, let alone writing, has worked for us is when building with Legos is involved. I'm hoping more maturity will be the answer, but honestly I'm about fed up and dh wants to try school.

 

 

 

I think if a child is verbal enough to speak then BW could work, if they are so nonverbal as not to be able to speak--either aloud or in own minds-- it would not work.  

 

If you did do a BW class, your son would no doubt write about Legos...  but if he won't even talk about it, then ....   well... that would be hard...

Maybe trying school for awhile would be a worthwhile. 

 

OP may need to do "partnership writing" where she scribes,  to make BW work...if she decides to try it.  If doing a BW online class, it needs to have a major priority for that time period or will not be very effective in my experience.

[Pen]

Total freezing and tears is not necessarily dysgraphia though. Sounds like an emotional overlay. And actually, BW online, where you could be your son's pal rather than his teacher might actually help.  Or maybe school would ...   Anyway, hugs!

[Pen]

No, I haven't. I have read some here use Bravewriter. I see they have some online classes. Which would be appropriate for a non writer? The only writing he does are the Barton dictation spelling words, phrases, and dictation.

 

Sandy

 

Can he speak? If he can and does, and better yet if he has some interest in life...anything really...Legos, whatever....and if you are willing to scribe for him if necessary, then yes, he can probably do Bravewriter online Kidswrite Basic. 

[thundersweet]

Pen,

I went to the website and I'm intrigued! Please tell me how much time you spent daily. Are you only allowed to check in once per day? Or could you potentially get on there and ask questions and get feedback multiple times per day? How many sessions did you do? It's pretty expensive at $200 for 4 or 5 weeks. I can see if being worth it if you really got in there and spent lots if time. When you get online and submit your child's work, I'm assuming you write exactly what he would have written, errors and all.

 

Sandy

[Pen]

I don't recall how much time, but a lot, especially once the writing part got going...   The class started slow with an assignment for the parent, and then an "art" type project to get into the need for description before the actual writing part. We did only math and  the writing class intensively (though since he chose to study and write about Vikings, there was also history and science mixed in to the content part) during the time it lasted.  So basically, math was an hour per day, and everything to do with Vikings and the writing class was the rest of the school day.

 

 

You can go on to the site as many times as you want...like this forum...any time you want as often as you want...    You can ask questions as often as you want, but the feedback will only come when the teacher or sometimes perhaps another class member is on and gives feedback... I think the teacher only went on once per day, but did seem to reply to most everything, whether it was a little or a lot. Some/most ? assignments though got a closing date after which responses to that assignment were no longer replied to, only whatever assignment was the new thing happening at that point.

 

Yes, I wrote things out as he had spoken them. Although I spelled things correctly if I was doing the writing. After the beginning, sometimes he got on the computer and answered the teacher's questions himself.  Correcting grammar and so on came at the last stage of a final "mop up"--but was still left  the way he would express things himself.

 

I had mixed feelings about the cost being high for what one gets since all the info is in the Writer's Jungle book. It did seem high to me! But it also did get us over a major hump, and it did help to be able to be his helper and not the teacher, as well as to see how the teacher responded to various people.  Most of all, it did take ds being a non-writer to being a writer. Also, I sometimes find myself spending more money in dribs and drabs for this book or that curriculum that do not actually get the job done, and while not terribly expensive individually perhaps (or some like IEW and WWS do get pretty expensive) add up to a lot.

 

We did just the one Kids Write Basic class. Maybe someday we'll do another, but he really ended up with KWB turning into a lengthy project that could have been a Mini-reports class result.

 

 

 

I saw you must have looked at a thread of mine as I was trying to find what to use for my ds--before we actually did do BW.

 

To find the ones that deal with the actual BW experience, search for the term "longships"  Maybe:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/453417-if-you-had-to-do-a-formal-composition-program/?hl= longships

[Pen]

Here--I'll just repost from the other thread.  Note that the parts in black below represent not the very beginning for what my son had as words, but what he had gotten to after several times trying to get more words out. And where he replies himself, you'll see that he uses "there" instead of "their"--other words might have been caught by spell check:

 

 

Here is a sample of the actual process--this was at about the 3rd time going more into the subject (with ds's permission, name removed). The blue parts are by the online teacher, the black/grey and red parts by my son:

 

 

 

viking longships

Some are short and are used for going down rivers. Long ones have been found, the longest 118 feet. 




Wow, I bet that was exciting to find these! I'm curious: where were they found? Who "found" them? Were there others discovered that were smaller? Which rivers were they used on? For someone not familiar with what a Viking longship was ... what exactly did the Vikings use these for?
Good to know. Were oars the only way that the longships were "powered"? 

 

No there main power was the wind.  


Were the square sails really big or ...? Any idea what they were made out of or if they had a design or pattern?

They could tack with the square sails, unlike most square sails which could only sail with the wind. Made lightweight.

This sounds like some sailing lingo ... for someone not familiar with this term, could you explain what it is? How it's done? 

 

tacking allowed the viking to go toward the wind unike Columbus's ships that could only go in the drection of the wind. 

[Name ] (10)

Nice work on this freewrite, [Name]! You're off to a good start. I've jotted down a variety of questions for expansion. See which ones you'd like to answer in your next freewrite. Looking forward to learning more! 

[Pen]

Then, here is the final part for the online class itself. As you can tell by the ending, my ds had already gone on to another section which retold a Norse myth about Thor--eventually there were many sections including on sun compasses, where the Vikings went, archaeology.

[Pen]

 

What was best about this end product to me was not the quality of the writing so much as that he felt good about it and wanted to go on with more (and did do so, continuing to write about various other aspects of the Vikings till he had done his 14 pages, including pictures, paper.) He had been hating writing and saying he couldn't and so on, so this was a big deal for him. 

(I'm editing because it did have paragraph breaks, but they did not come through from my file copy.)

Viking Longships

The Viking longships were light weight and the bottom design and square sails allowed them to skim the wave surface. Vikinglongships had flat bottoms so they could go in shallow water (why we call them longships is because longboat like it says in most books came long after the Viking time). They did have a little bit of a keel, which is a stabilizer on the bottom. 

A 118 foot long Viking longship was found by Danish archaeologists in Denmark in 2006. This one is the biggest that they have found so far, but there are some big ones like one was 98 feet long!

Some were a lot shorter, the shortest that were used in rivers were only 10-20 feet long! The longer and larger ships were used in large bodies of water such as the ocean. 

The Vikings made the longships out of wood and iron. The nails, rivets, and keel were iron. The best wood was huge old oak trees because it was strong. They would nail huge spikes of wood in the end of the tree to split the trunk in two, and then one tree made two boards. They ran out of good oak because they only made 2 boards out of one tree, so, for example, 30 boards would take 15 trees.

They also ran out of good oak longships because when a chief died they would put their chief inside of the longship in a tent with all of his belongings and burn it. Or sometimes when he died, they would put the chief in a tent on the longship with all of his belongings and push the longship out in the water and burn it. And also in storms or battles they sunk.

They ran out of the oak because their forests got thin, so they had to make the longships out of pine, which wasn’t as strong or durable as oak was. The pine didn’t last as long so the pine longships broke down easily. 

The Vikings had pigs, sheep, goats, and horses. And they brought their animals with them when they went places to settle (not when raiding), and the animals were very destructive because the horses grazed and the sheep and goats grazed in their own patterns and the pigs rooted up small trees. 

The front and back of the longships were the same so they could go forwards and backwards. So if they were coming to a rocky area, instead of having to crash, they could just turn around, use the oars and just go backward.

Their main power was the wind. They used sails when it was windy and when it was no wind they used the oars. And they used oars for going down rivers.

And they could tack!

Tacking means to turn so you are heading up into the wind, so the wind is first coming from one side of the boat and then the other side. so when they are tacking they zig-zag into the wind. Tacking allowed the Vikings to go toward the wind unlike Columbus's square sales that couldn’t tack, but Columbus’s ships had triangular sails that could tack.

The Vikings also probably entertained themselves on the long voyages on the longships. They could have sung, told stories and told myths. These all could have been entertainment while they were at sea. Such a story follows in the next section.

[thundersweet]

That is awesome! Your son went from a non-writer to that??? Wow! I do remember reading posts by you during my search for writing programs for dyslexics. How did you know that anyway?? lol

 

Sandy

[Pen]

That is awesome! Your son went from a non-writer to that??? Wow! I do remember reading posts by you during my search for writing programs for dyslexics. How did you know that anyway?? lol

 

Sandy

 

You clicked on "like" for one post I'd made, and I saw it on my notifications earlier today--but it wasn't the thread that had the info from after he had done BW. Alas, each of the thread in which I've put significant info are like yours with a title that does not suggest there will be much about BW in it.

 

Or should I claim some great powers of ESP? lol.

[PeterPan]

I really have to say though that I think Pen's ds must have a highly verbal profile behind the dysgraphia or struggle more with the physical output rather than thinking in words. My 2nd ds is like that as well and I'm considering Bravewriter for him in the future.

 

My older ds is nothing like that and is also classified as dysgraphic. He bombed the vocab section of the WISC IV because of his issues with word retrieval (difference of 45+%). Bravewriter would be terrible for my older ds. He just has nothing to say and has no idea how to get any words out in any order. I think you really have to know the specific issues associated with your child's diagnosis of dysgraphia to pick the right program. It is not one-size-fits-all for the diagnosis, just like not any one program will get dyslexics reading.

 

 

Happy to be wrong and glad it worked for your ds. We still can't get past total freezing and tears, whether speaking, writing, or answering a question. :( The only time even discussion, let alone writing, has worked for us is when building with Legos is involved. I'm hoping more maturity will be the answer, but honestly I'm about fed up and dh wants to try school.

FP, have you looked into speech therapy for him?  Dd's word retrieval scores were low (though I'm assuming ds' will be lower?) and when I researched it the low word retrieval scores were connected with apraxia and dyslexia.  Ironically, ds is very verbal (very high vocab scores, very wow, conversations) thanks to his extensive ST, but he'll still stumble with retrieval.  It will show up with tasks where he's supposed to retrieve words and has to do work arounds, but also it shows up in conversation, where he'll just go really vague or ask outright what the thing is called because he can't retrieve the word.  (you know, that thing, what's it called?)

 

To me your boy sounds like he needs to work with a good SLP a bit on expressive language.  They have tons they can do for expressive language, sequencing, word retrieval, lexicon, etc.  It's stuff you could carry over at home.  Jen on the boards here has talked about barrier games.  He needs things where he's not thinking up the content but the speech is coming directly from what he's doing.  It can be steps in a game where each move is repeated, making for consistent vocabulary.  (roll the dice, hop 3, your turn, etc.)  It can be barrier games or games like "A Fistful of Coins."  That last game is a little pricy but it's VERY good, wow.  I think Jen said her ds did therapy with the lady who created it?  Maybe I'm remembering wrong.  

 

My new internal mantra is "I'm asking for help!"  I'm SO tired of people acting like homeschooling is some magical panacea and all you have to do is show up and it's all obvious.  I talked to this lady today who said yes, just teach him to write his letters and then let him practice with his school work.  Yeah right, my dyslexic, not going to read for a long time because he can't even distinguish /a/ and /e/ is really going to have tons of book school work and curriculum that fits him that I can just make all this writing happen.  I'll get right on that.  Thwak.

 

So every time I get frustrated with myself and try to talk myself out of expensive evals, I just tell myself "I'M JUST ASKING FOR HELP.  I KNOW I NEED HELP."

[FairProspects]

The problem is, I think it is actually more of an intensity issue. We have done a lot of word retrieval exercises and he always nails them in isolation. It is not so much finding the word as that it takes him a bit of time to organize into words what he wants to say and he has so much going on in his head simultaneously that he wants to get out that he gets frustrated and loses his cool. He also is such a specialist that there are very few topics he deems worthy of writing about. Generally they have to involve science or engineering or he just wants nothing to do with it. He has been this incredible ball of intensity since he was 2 and doing experiments with mass and gravity that didn't work out to his liking. I think I might need to explore ways to help him manage his intensity, we just haven't figured that out yet.

[PeterPan]

Yup, one psych I talked with recently said not to confuse retrieval and perfectionism, that what looks like slow retrieval might be perfectionism and him trying to find exactly the way he wants to put it.  Your boy sounds incredibly smart.

[FairProspects]

Thanks! It is always a challenge around here in some way. :)