Verbally gifted yet spelling disabled--what to do?

[MyHandsAreFull]

I need some help for DD11 who is an avid reader with good comprehension and yet an abysmal speller (well below 50th percentile for grade level on her ITBS despite very high verbal scores). I feel guilty about it because I've been ignoring it (other than weekly list-based spelling tests) thinking it would get better, sort of chalking it up to asynchrony. I think I have finally realized this problem won't fix itself.

 

I have searched old threads but many of the discussions are about younger children. She will resent it if I have her do spelling work designed for 6 or 7 year olds.

 

Thoughts?

[maize]

Below 50th percentile doesn't necessarily mean abysmal--50th percentile is average. If she is, say, at the 45th percentile, she's just an average speller. If she is testing at the 5th percentile I would be seriously concerned.

 

Of course it's fine to work on a skill that is a weak point and hopefully people will chime in with constructive suggestions, but personally I also think it is OK for kids to be average in some areas.

[clemota]

You may want to look up "Stealth Dyslexia."  DD11 was recently diagnosed with this: she is verbally gifted, but spelling (and for her, handwriting also) lag behind. Stealth Dyslexics tend to be "good" readers - mine is voracious - and have good comprehension as well.  The dyslexia comes in the processing, and leads to an issue in remembering spelling patterns.

 

We've been using Apples and Pears Spelling.  It is a solid program, and not just for dyslexics.  You can see samples online and they have placement testing as well.  My DD doesn't think it is too "baby-ish" at all.  And more importantly, it has made a difference.

[MyHandsAreFull]

How much time do you allocate for Apples and Pears? I've heard it mentioned but don't know too much about it. The PDFs certainly look reasonably priced.

 

I have never heard of Megawords but I will check it out, too. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

I have an appointment for her to get eval'd for a learning disability next month but not sure that's going to really change anything. I just feel terrible for letting this fester. I knew there was a disconnect but I didn't realize how bad until we had testing done a couple of months ago. I feel like it is bad enough that it limits her (writing in general is not a strength--I would like to put her in G3 because that's her reading level but have decided to keep her in Athena's because of this).

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Cera]

My 7 year old has the same issue (very, very high verbal scores and abysmal spelling - below the 25th%).  She is starting third grade (advanced one year by the public schools) and was just referred for testing for dyslexia.  Apparently there are many types and not all are associated with reading issues.  She was also referred for testing for auditory processing as well as to an audiologist and ENT to test for hearing issues (in case the problem is not being able to spell because she hears the words pronounced differently).

 

They are being very proactive because third grade is the point where spelling really starts to matter from a grading perspective and because there is such a glaring disparity between what she should be doing based on test results and what she is doing.

[MyHandsAreFull]

Silly question--does megawords have a placement test or I just start with level 1?

 

Anyone have experience with AVKO Sequential Spelling for a kid like this?

[clemota]

Apples and Pears took us about 20-30 minutes/day doing a half of a lesson per day (each lesson has 6-9 activities in it).  DD has dysgraphia (fairly common alongside dyslexia) so she could only handle that much writing at one time.  If you do some searches on this site you'll find some other who have used it, along with their thoughts/reviews.

 

We switched to Apples and Pears after trying Sequential Spelling for a year.  DD retained nothing in the time that we used SS.  Her spelling words were ok while they were building up to/from each other, but when I came back to them after several weeks they were gone from her head.  Apples and Pears breaks down the words in a better way for DD, and the use of dictation sentences really helped to cement spelling while writing.  It also constantly repeats several basic spelling rules, which got her to stop and really think about what she was about to put down on paper.  SS was just a daily list of words, and I would either have to know or find out why a word was spelled the way it was.  SS has worked for others here on the boards; it just wasn't enough for my DD. 

Hopefully someone can chime in here with a positive experience for you to compare.

 

I would think your DD would still be able to join a G3 class.  The teachers there are used to asynchronous gifted kids.  My DD took a class there last fall - she just made sure she typed something out with spellcheck before she turned it in!  And as for the live sessions, if anyone noticed her spelling, or lack thereof, no one said anything.  I think they're used to it!

 

 

[MyHandsAreFull]

Clemota, thanks! That is very helpful! Sounds a lot like my DD--she does on ok the list based approach for that week but then can't actually spell a thing "in the wild" two or three weeks later.

[Dana]

AAS has been what has worked here. You do need to start with Level 1 IMO. The tiles have helped a lot.

[Tracy]

I like Spell to Write and Read for my verbal but spelling-challenged dd9.  I looked at AAS and was overwhelmed with the different levels and trying to place her in the right one.  SWR has all levels through high school in one book, and it is so easy to place the child in the right spot.  None of it is babyish and can be used with any age up to adults.  

 

That said, there is a learning curve, but once you figure it out, it is open-and-go.

[Reefgazer]

I've got one of those; 99th percentile reading/comprehension and 64th percentile spelling.  Ugh. 

 

When we came home for school this past year, I taught her to be diligent and careful with editing.  I was relentless in having her edit, sound things out, and look things up in the dictionary.  That improved things, but not enough.  I am remediating spelling with LoE this year and hoping it will get her a little further along in spelling competency.  LoE has a specific section for fluent readers who are poor spellers, where they review phonemes and learn spelling rules.

[MyHandsAreFull]

Thanks for the info, everyone! I will probably order something today in hopes of getting by our planned school start date. Hoping we can see progress within a couple of months.

[freesia]

Apples and Pears here. We do 1/2 a lesson in about 10 minutes. I cannot say enough great things about this program. However, bc the books rely on lots of review, you won't necessarily see instant success. You need to go fully through a book.

[JennW in SoCal]

Silly question--does megawords have a placement test or I just start with level 1?

 

Anyone have experience with AVKO Sequential Spelling for a kid like this?

 

Both my kids were horrible spellers but otherwise had high reading and language arts scores.  One happily used AVKO and it seemed to work wonders, the other resisted it tooth and nail.  

 

The spelling problem abated with maturity, but not til the teen years.  They both became very aware that spelling isn't their strong suit and both decided they never wanted it to be a hinderance in grades or in the real world. Over time it got better through my editing and their rewriting but I credit most of their improvement to spell check.  People blast it, but spell check is a wonderful thing for them -- NOT autocorrections, but the red underlining which calls attention to the misspellings so they can stop to look up the correct spelling and fix it.  Over time more and more correct spellings have sunk in and only rarely do they make homonym mistakes.  

 

I think approaching it through editing worked best with my kids because they would do great with spelling programs and lists, but they NEVER would apply it in writing.  It was far more effective to show them their mistakes in writing. AVKO works because you see the insides of words, see how bigger words are built around little words, even when the little word isn't related to the big word.  It's patterns.  There aren't rules and root words and lists to memorize.

[Punks in Ontario]

I have 3 guys like this.  Reading and comprehension is extremely high.  Spelling is under the 25th percentile for one, under the 40th for another and under the 50th for the last.  We use a heavily modified AVKO which has helped considerably.  The middle speller is heading up into the sort of normal range now.  The main thing that has worked here has been steady consistent time everyday.  I'm still shocked at the level of disconnect with these guys.  It's a good thing they're good at math.

 

And yes, the teens did improve in high school.  I think it was a combination of maturity and deciding that they weren't going to have their spelling be such a distraction.

[Punks in Ontario]

FWIW my step mother was a remedial teacher for many years.  She's always told me that spelling is the hardest subject to re mediate.  She just suggested spell check on the computer.

[Mrs.Mom]

Wow, I clicked on this because my son - also 11 - has the same thing going on! Off the charts reading and comprehension, but spelling is atrocious! However, on his ITBS in 3rd grade, his spelling was high school level. So he can recognize misspelled words, but cannot free-think how to spell. What on earth is up with that?

To the OP - Sorry for the hijack... you all seem so knowledgeable and I hate to start a new thread for the same issue. It has been bothering me for some time. Emails and texts from my child make me cringe... ;)

[Tracy]

Wow, I clicked on this because my son - also 11 - has the same thing going on! Off the charts reading and comprehension, but spelling is atrocious! However, on his ITBS in 3rd grade, his spelling was high school level. So he can recognize misspelled words, but cannot free-think how to spell. What on earth is up with that?

 

Some people need explicit training in spelling.  That is, they need to train their minds to think about words as groups of sounds, and they need to be shown how the rules of spelling work.  Some people (like myself) can easily and automatically intuit spelling (encoding) once they learn how to read (decoding).  But encoding is a more difficult skill (especially in English) than decoding, and some people need explicit instruction, or they do not learn it well.  

 

We use Spell to Write and Read for this explicit instruction.  My dd9 usually increases in spelling ability by a full year in just the first 3 months of each school year.  Last year, by Christmas she was testing at a 6th grade level, even though we did not do 6th grade level word lists until the end of the school year.  That is because the program we use explicitly teaches the patterns of the language, which can then be applied to words she has never before spelled (rather than hoping that the student will simply see those patterns on her own).  And my dd9 is not at all a natural speller.  Over the summer, her scores decrease substantially.  So I know she needs the explicit instruction.  

[Tracy]

I think no one needs explicit training in spelling once explicit phonics have been taught. Sometimes we should just be glad for spell check.

 

I respectfully disagree.  Certainly, for many students (perhaps even most), explicit phonics is sufficient.  But as we see from this thread, it is not uncommon for a student to be able to read well and not spell well.  I certainly see that with my children.  

[Mrs.Mom]

I wonder, too, if it has anything to do with how they learned to read? My son taught himself to read when he was about 3. He has always just known words and language... it has always been intuitive for him. But now, it's things like "banana" and other very simple words. I am not certain it's a knowledge of spelling thing so much as a lazy thing? I have no idea. His handwriting is also incredibly messy... like a kindergartener's. 

It's disconcerting and does not seem to be improving...

 

 

[Black-eyed Suzan]

My DH is also "verbally gifted but spelling disabled." He says that he can't remember the letters in order by looking at them. He visually manipulates the order in his mind and confuses himself entirely. But auditory cues help (i.e. "A friend is a friend to the end." and "The principal is your pal.") I haven't used it, but a curriculum that seems to do that is Phonetic Zoo.

[saw]

My DS tested at high nineties for all reading-related skills and in the 16th percentile for spelling a few years ago. He has various issues and phonics does not work for him at all. He has done Lindamood Bell several times, where he learned that he needs to visualize the spelling words. For example, I'll give him the word and ask him to see it in his head. I then ask various questions about the "picture" and ask him to change it. So I might say, "what font is it? what color is the word? can you change the color to pink? now make the word big. Tell me how many letters there are. What is the third letter?" Stuff like that. We saw a huge improvement in spelling, absolutely massive. Using this approach he and I were able to up his score on his Greek exam from 42 to 88 in a matter of a few sessions, because his Greek teacher had no clue that he can't learn like the other boys do. Of course this works because of DS's particular issues and YMMV but it may be worth a try.

[Targhee]

Anyone have experience with AVKO Sequential Spelling for a kid like this?

Yes, we did two levels of AVKO with very little retention.  For my 11 yo part of the spelling issue is not really thinking about it while writing.  When we are doing spelling she does great.  When we are not, she can't spell.  I was hopeful with Sequential Spelling, but it did not work.  We are remediating with LOE. FWIW I was a horrible speller (not as bad as my dd, but pretty bad).  I don't know what has made the difference for me, but as an adult I am much better.  Maybe it's just time.

[Punks in Ontario]

My guys weren't retaining much with AVKO until we started modifying it seriously.  For the last couple of years, we do a group of about 30 words per day including word families (chief, thief relieve), common misspellings, science words and grade level lists.  When a word is mastered it is checked off and a new word is added.  If a word is still giving trouble after a couple of days, it is written out 3, 5, 7, or 10 times depending on how much trouble.  When it is spelled correctly for a couple of days, it gets a check.  So out of 30 words, the first 10 could be difficult words from other days,  another 10 might be words they've almost mastered, and the final 10 might be new words to try.

 

Pros:  I've seen definite progress in both boys spelling over time.  It is working at some level.

          It is not openly graded avoiding the old, "I only got half the words right."  

          It's easily tweaked to easier if that's where the child is at.  You progress at the child's rate.

 

Cons:  The child doesn't always "see" the progress they're making.

          It only works if it's done every.single.day.

[jewellsmommy]

My dd has a diagnosed writing disability (dysgraphia) which makes her a horrendous speller. :sad: She scored high in perceptual reasoning and is high avg in verbal. We have tried several spelling programs. Unfortunately, AAS did not translate/carry-over into real life for us. We have been using Sequential Spelling for over a year. We started at the beginning and are in the 2nd book now. I have seen a little bit of progress, not as much as I would like though. We are planning to see this program through because dd seems to tolerate it well and because of that little bit of progress.

[Terabith]

I'm praying I can get my 9 yr old who reads decently and scored 154 on the Peabody Vocabulary Test but spells like a kindergartener to eventually be able to spell well enough for spellcheck to be effective.

[Embassy]

I've had some success with AVKO Individualized Spelling and I'm currently doing Megawords.  It seems to be helping :)  My son showed great progress with AVKO Individualized Spelling (not Sequential Spelling), but after a year or so his progress stalled a bit.  We jumped to Megawords and I've seen progress there as well.  I love how it incorporates vocabulary and reading which my kid needs.  He did have a big gap in his reading and spelling, but over the past several years his reading progress slowed and his spelling progress gained.