linders Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Last night DH and I watched "In the Name of the Father," a movie based in part on true events stemming from the troubles in Northern Ireland. I spent a good part of the movie explaining the background to him - the "invasion" of (Protestant) English nobles in the 16th century who were given Irish land, the subjugation of the Catholic Irish, the ensuing rebellion based in part on religion, in part on heritage. I remember hearing about IRA bombings as I grew up (1970's). And now? Relative calm in Belfast. Maybe there is hope for Jerusalem. P.S. Good movie, especially if you like Daniel Day-Lewis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Yes, but it's probably not going to be in our lifetimes or even our children's or grandchildren's. Maybe after that. ETA: Which is not to say a solution may begin to be implemented in the above timeframe, but it will take a lot of time to implement and there will be fallout and ongoing violence. Look at India and Pakistan 65 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Truth? It depends on what you consider 'hope' and a solid resolution to the issue. Someone sympathetic to the Palestinians will have a very different solution than someone sympathetic to the Israelis. And someone who has no horse in the race for either side will create the kind of solution only bureaucrats love and everyone living under it detests. Compromise generally means both sides are equally unhappy. Considering there are more than "two sides" here, it is possible to find a solution that appeases the moderates on both sides, and appeals to (what I believe) is the majority searching for an end to the conflict. It will mean that the diehards on both sides will be left unhappy, which will require the moderates on each side to keep them in check and not allow them to further define the conflict and/or its resolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 It is super complicated, dates back to biblical times and there seem to be no easy solutions. Also, from what I understand from a Jewish Rabbi who has Palestinian friends, not all Palestinians - in fact supposedly a minority - agree with Hamas but a few hold power and another few terrorize others, even in their Palestinian territory. The rabbi once said to me that the Palestinians have very bad representation and little chance of changing their government. So this is one Jewish Rabbi's view... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I think most people just want other people to stop killing other people. I think a lot of people from all walks of life don't care in the least who started what, when. I think "a lot of people" will eventually win out on this one. Peace will come. It would sure be lovely. I hope you are right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I have hope that the next generation of Palestinians and Israeli children will be able to find a solution. Seeds of Peace has kids from conflicted areas going to camp together, sharing life experiences. I think one helpful thing that comes from it is the lessening of seeing groups as "others." It's easy to hate someone you don't know. It's much harder to hate someone who has become an individual, "real" person to you, maybe even a friend. A good flim that illustrates this is The Other Son, a french film about Palestinian and Israeli kids who were accidently switched at birth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I have hope that the next generation of Palestinians and Israeli children will be able to find a solution. Seeds of Peace has kids from conflicted areas going to camp together, sharing life experiences. I think one helpful thing that comes from it is the lessening of seeing groups as "others." It's easy to hate someone you don't know. It's much harder to hate someone who has become an individual, "real" person to you, maybe even a friend. A good flim that illustrates this is The Other Son, a french film about Palestinian and Israeli kids who were accidently switched at birth. When I was in Virginia as a kid families in our community hosted Catholic kids from Ireland/Protestant kids from England to stay the summer and get to know each other. Two of the boys hung out with my brother and I quite a bit at the park. They seemed to be quite close by the time summer was over and they went home. No idea if that program had any influence on what happened later but I agree, harder to hate a "real" person... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmiraGulch Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I think most people just want other people to stop killing other people. I think a lot of people from all walks of life don't care in the least who started what, when. I think "a lot of people" will eventually win out on this one. Peace will come. I agree with the bolded. I really don't care who started what. I can agree in part with the intellectual arguments on both sides of the issue, but I could not care less about it anymore. What I care about is that people are dying. A lot of people. And living in fear. And the hate continues to grow and fester. It's unfathomable to me. I do not have any hope for peace, though. Hamas (not all of Palestine, just Hamas) has a charter based in religious belief that compels them to destroy the enemy. It is nearly impossible to unseat religious fervor. Also, Israel has political allies, as well as ideological supporters, that will never allow them to back down from their position. So, no. I do not see any hope for that conflict ever being resolved in any acceptable way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Hamas (not all of Palestine, just Hamas) has a charter based in religious belief that compels them to destroy the enemy. It is nearly impossible to unseat religious fervor. Also, Israel has political allies, as well as ideological supporters, that will never allow them to back down from their position. Do you think Israel wants to back down? Everything I've read indicates that they are (still) looking to expand geographical / political control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I pray that there will be peace. I just wonder how on earth it is possible to deal with a situation where one side uses weapons to protect their children and the other side uses their children to protect their weapons? When there is a mindset such as the latter, our Western thoughts on right and wrong are immaterial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I think there's hope. I actually read a good article yesterday on how twitter/facebook is changing the narrative. I think that more people becoming aware on both sides is good. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israel-has-discovered-that-its-no-longer-so-easy-to-get-away-with-murder-in-the-age-of-social-media-9621379.html IMHO, for there to be peace, Americans (more so than Israelis…because I see a lot more nuanced opinions from Israelis I meet) need to value each Palestinian child as much as each Israeli child. We need to be as horrified by each Palestinian death and injustice. Then maybe…just maybe…we'll stop using our security council veto on everything which remotely criticizes Israel. Unfortunately, Americans view Palestinians as Muslims…and Arabs…and thus, they get saddled with the negative stereotypes that we hold towards those two groups. People forget that there are Christian Palestinians….and probably the Palestinian Lobby (if there is one) should publicize that fact more. http://electronicintifada.net/content/christianity-palestine-misrepresentation-and-dispossession/6280 Do I ever see the Palestinians getting the right to return? No. Do I ever see the Palestinians getting reparations for the land and stuff that was taken? Yes…as a long term aid /development agreement after peace. Do I see the Palestinians getting what they were promised in 1947 when Israel was created? Nope…but I think 1967 borders are possible. A connected Palestinian state is possible. Do I see the Palestinians getting any portion of Jerusalem? Probably not. I'd like to say they would get East Jerusalem or it would be an International City, but I'm really pessimistic about that. I hope I'm wrong. The Palestinian Papers (their own wikileaks) were really interesting on just what the Palestinians have offered up for peace in negotiations. It's far more than I would have thought. It saddens me that even with that, it didn't work….but I haven't given up hope. http://www.aljazeera.com/palestinepapers/ I really think the solution is getting rid of the politicians and going straight to a popular vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aura Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 In previous generations, it was much harder to get the view from the other side. But with today's technology and the ability to easily see what's going on "on the other side of the fence" and "what's happening on the ground," I hope that the younger generations will use it to look at things more objectively and say, "This is enough." I see this type of thing happening in other areas, so I'm hoping that it will happen in this case, too. There's always hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmiraGulch Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Do you think Israel wants to back down? Everything I've read indicates that they are (still) looking to expand geographical / political control. No, I don't think that at all. What I'm saying is that Hamas doesn't want to back down, and they're compelled to keep fighting and killing because of their very charter, and have the fervor of their religion behind them, which is damn near impossible to overcome. Israel doesn't want to back down because of a desire to expand geographic and political influence, and have the money and political influence of most of the Western world behind them. That's why I see no real chance for peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 It's easy to hate someone you don't know. It's much harder to hate someone who has become an individual, "real" person to you, maybe even a friend. It's also easier to have someone else do your dirty work for you. There are people on both sides who are willing to support their militaries and militant politicians but who would never pull the trigger themselves, especially face to face. It's another form of dehumanizing, in a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmaNZ Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 IMHO, for there to be peace, Americans (more so than Israelis…because I see a lot more nuanced opinions from Israelis I meet) need to value each Palestinian child as much as each Israeli child. We need to be as horrified by each Palestinian death and injustice. Then maybe…just maybe…we'll stop using our security council veto on everything which remotely criticizes Israel. Unfortunately, Americans view Palestinians as Muslims…and Arabs…and thus, they get saddled with the negative stereotypes that we hold towards those two groups. People forget that there are Christian Palestinians….and probably the Palestinian Lobby (if there is one) should publicize that fact more. Umsami I think you have hit the nail on the head. I think the solution for this ongoing conflict lies in the hands of America, and at present the governing powers in America do not choose to use that power for finding long-term peaceable solutions. That said - there will be peace. Just maybe not in my lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 The arc of history is long. I don't know if it always bends toward justice or anything, but there's always hope. I don't feel all that hopeful right now though. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Unpopular stances for which I am unapologetic: I don't think the situation in Ireland is quite the same. I don't believe there will be peace in my lifetime in the middle east; they've been fighting about essentially the same crap for millennia. I think the USA should wean itself off oil so we can stop caring about the political mess in the middle east; I personally don't care one whit anymore and I am sick of hearing about it in the news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Unpopular stances for which I am unapologetic: I don't think the situation in Ireland is quite the same. I don't believe there will be peace in my lifetime in the middle east; they've been fighting about essentially the same crap for millennia. I think the USA should wean itself off oil so we can stop caring about the political mess in the middle east; I personally don't care one whit anymore and I am sick of hearing about it in the news. It's not that I disagree, so much as .... I'm just not sure what you think this thread is about. Who is "they?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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