bookless highschool?!

[wingedradical]

Well, bookless is an exaggeration but here is what the local high school does. Is this common now days?

 

In no class does the student actually receive a text book to take home. S/he can stop after school and check one out at the school library if s/he wants; it isn't required. Most books are also available online and the teachers, on the first day, tell the students it "would be good if they read along in the text." But it obviously isn't required.

 

Students are given some extra material that has been printed out, maybe 3-5 sheets a week. These may contain just information or be fill out sheets. The exception is math, where problems are sometimes printed out and sometimes, expected to be obtained from the online text. Also, they must buy or otherwise obtain what they are supposed to read in literature.

 

Students often finish a class in chemistry without ever seeing the chemistry book.

 

Is this common? I don't see how it can work.

 

The schools in this district are very overcrowded due to rapid growth.

 

The school rates a "B" according to the state (not bad considering it includes one very poor township made up almost entirely of Mexican immigrants - not saying Mexicans aren't smart, of course! But language and poverty, you know what I mean). Still, since this state rates low on the national scale, that isn't saying much.

[maize]

I can see such a policy really hurting lower income students who may not have easy access to online materials. I don't know how the schools around here handle textbooks, but I know others on this forum have talked about the lack of texts for students...

[maize]

I think common core may have exacerbated the problem, especially in math where the old textbooks no longer match the new standards...

[EKS]

Our district is moving to all online texts.  I can't stand online texts.

 

At the private school where my son went in 10th grade, they didn't have a chemistry textbook because the teacher "couldn't find one she liked."  Are you kidding me?  The biology text was only "recommended" and nothing was ever assigned in it.  There was no history text (and no assigned reading of any kind in history).  :banghead:

 

This is reason 4,968 why we homeschool.

[MysteryJen]

I guess online is better than unavailable which has been the situation in my district's lower performing high schools.

 

My feeling is that an older textbook that a student can actually use and take home is better than a new shiny one on the classroom shelf.

[Maureen]

This happened here at the local high school.  I tutored a friend's son in Geometry this past year and he never had a textbook until March!!!  It was really frustrating because the teacher just expected the kids to take notes from the overhead and then do problems she photocopied for them.  This was a smart kid who could totally learn the material but didn't have a textbook to look anything up.  Ridiculous!  And this is a top ranked high school.

[Slache]

That's what my education was like. Ask me 5 questions a high school graduate should know and I'll tell if I knew the answers when I graduated.

[Corraleno]

And yet these kids are expected to seamlessly make the transition to college, where they're supposed to already know how to navigate huge textbooks, take notes from them, use the TOC/index/glossary to find information, work the problems in the text, etc?   :confused1:

[Wheres Toto]

Actually, a lot of my daughters college textbooks have been digital/online versions, or custom bundles of information from the professor so it's not uncommon in college either.

 

If there's somewhere to look up information when needed, I don't think it's a big deal.  I had classes in high school, back in the dark ages, where we never used the textbook.  They just sat in the bottom of our lockers until it was time to turn them back in again.  

 

Students having to buy or borrow from the library the books they read for literature classes isn't uncommon.  It's what we had to do when I was in school.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I've heard of all online.

I've also heard a different take where the schools are looking for alternatives to textbooks since they realized the kids weren't reading them. Some of the alternatives would be researching the topic, drop boxing a worksheet, watching a video from the teacher...etc. More project-based learning or flipped classroom style that doesn't utilize a textbook as much.

 

Or you could, you know, teach the kids how to read a textbook and design the course so that the grade depends in part on doing so.

 

In life there are any number of things that I've done, because that is what had to be done.  From getting up at 350am to take my son to swim practice to researching how to repair a broken appliance to cleaning up after sick kids.  I used to have to go inside fuel oil and sewage tanks to inspect them in one of my jobs.  I frequently had to work through the middle of the night. 

 

I really with we'd move on past the learned helplessness and the urge to change things to accommodate what "kids won't do".

[foxbridgeacademy]

Where we live now the middle school students (6/7/8 graders) use ipads for everything but Literature (their choice to purchase kindle version of assigned books if they want).  There are no textbooks at all (even online ones).  Instead the teacher might assign a video or website to explain a homework concept.  If they are having trouble with a particular problem in math then they can get on their classes forum via the ipad (from home) and ask other students what they did to solve that problem.  All the kids in that class then get a little "ping" letting them know that there's another student needing help.  All of their homework is completed on these ipads, all their notes are taken on them too.  My daughter will be attending this school starting in August.  She's excited, I'm a bit concerned.

 

This isn't the worst though, where we lived in NC, the 4th graders started using ipads for about 1/2 their daily work so that by 6th grade they were accustomed enough to go textbook free.

[My3girls]

My dd started using e-texts in 5th grade in ps. She has no idea how to use the index to look things up and was only vaguely aware of the table of contents or glossary. My dds were using iPads in some classes as early as 1st grade. So I'm not surprised to hear this in the least.

[swimmermom3]

Or you could, you know, teach the kids how to read a textbook and design the course so that the grade depends in part on doing so.

 

In life there are any number of things that I've done, because that is what had to be done.  From getting up at 350am to take my son to swim practice to researching how to repair a broken appliance to cleaning up after sick kids.  I used to have to go inside fuel oil and sewage tanks to inspect them in one of my jobs.  I frequently had to work through the middle of the night. 

 

I really with we'd move on past the learned helplessness and the urge to change things to accommodate what "kids won't do".

 

This is the best thing I have read in days.

 

I read the texts in high school. It would have been difficult to pass the quizzes without doing so. Not doing well on the quizzes would have affected my grade which would have affected my relationship with my parents.

 

 

 

 

[MarkT]

Because they moved to "Integrated math" local district does not currently have math textbooks.  The students are expected to take good notes!  I have 3 texts to support Algebra 2 so not that worried myself.  I did tell them about CK12 but not sure if they listened.

 

HS level Math has always been supplemented after school at my household. 

 

"We"  are ok with PDF textbooks but wary of pure online.  Poor fonts, Internet outages etc.

[maize]

Because they moved to "Integrated math" local district does not currently have math textbooks. The students are expected to take good notes! I have 3 texts to support Algebra 2 so not that worried myself. I did tell them about CK12 but not sure if they listened.

 

HS level Math has always been supplemented after school at my household.

 

"We" are ok with PDF textbooks but wary of pure online. Poor fonts, Internet outages etc.

I do think the move to integrated math with common core has posed some real challenges since schools may not have the funds for all new textbooks and there are not nearly so many textbooks to choose from. I am a fan of integrated math, but I'm not sure the implementation was well planned.

 

At the same time there is a long tradition in many countries of students learning through lectures and copious note-taking, I don't think it is impossible for a classroom to function this way. But if the students have not been taught excellent note-taking skills they are at a serious disadvantage.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Eek! So how much are they hand writing? Schools never take things in moderation.. :glare:

 

 

From my understanding, no actual handwriting is required.  DD will be attending this school starting in August, should be interesting.  

[Lanny]

IMHO, not having a textbook to study from probably lowers the amount of learning that is accomplished by the group of students in the school, and their test scores. On the other hand, each of the textbooks DD has weighs more than 4 pounds, so carrying a number of them home in a backpack would not be good for the spine.  I believe students should have textbooks issued to them, because staring at a monitor to read the material isn't the same as holding the book in your hands and reading from it.

[TranquilMind]

Well, bookless is an exaggeration but here is what the local high school does. Is this common now days?

 

In no class does the student actually receive a text book to take home. S/he can stop after school and check one out at the school library if s/he wants; it isn't required. Most books are also available online and the teachers, on the first day, tell the students it "would be good if they read along in the text." But it obviously isn't required.

 

Students are given some extra material that has been printed out, maybe 3-5 sheets a week. These may contain just information or be fill out sheets. The exception is math, where problems are sometimes printed out and sometimes, expected to be obtained from the online text. Also, they must buy or otherwise obtain what they are supposed to read in literature.

 

Students often finish a class in chemistry without ever seeing the chemistry book.

 

Is this common? I don't see how it can work.

 

The schools in this district are very overcrowded due to rapid growth.

 

The school rates a "B" according to the state (not bad considering it includes one very poor township made up almost entirely of Mexican immigrants - not saying Mexicans aren't smart, of course! But language and poverty, you know what I mean). Still, since this state rates low on the national scale, that isn't saying much.

Yep, this lovely policy was being implemented in earnest when I allowed oldest to attend a local school.  I had to contact the teachers prior to the school year and buy all the books myself on Amazon.   We are BOOK people.

 

It's awful. 

[Artichoke]

Our local school system is moving to classroom sets of textbooks for all AP classes as new textbooks are purchased. Our textbooks are purchased by departments on a seven year rotating schedule.

[Heidi]

And yet these kids are expected to seamlessly make the transition to college, where they're supposed to already know how to navigate huge textbooks, take notes from them, use the TOC/index/glossary to find information, work the problems in the text, etc? :confused1:

I think many colleges are moving to online textbooks too.

[Haiku]

My dd had very few textbooks in high school, and the same is true now that she's in college.

 

I wish she'd had a math text in high school (and I think they have them now because so many parents complained), but in general I think that textbooks are not necessarily the best way to learn.

[Luckymama]

I think many colleges are moving to online textbooks too.

Kindle-format books are often an option when ordering my college kids' textbooks. They prefer hard copies.

 

Ds has had a few books for some grad-level computer science class as PDFs. I think that format works for the rapidly changing nature of those topics. His cyber security seminars have used spiral-bound printouts of PowerPoint slides and code examples, along with the code on thumb drives.

[MarkT]

I think many colleges are moving to online textbooks too.

not necessarily for the better -  in theory this should lower text costs but in reality it will wipe out the used book market in the long run

 

maybe enough professors will use "open source" texts to even out the edu-giant text book monopoly price hikes

[melmichigan]

The local high school uses all iPad based ebooks, no textbooks.  All the iPads have unlimited online access, yeah, my tax dollars at work.  :glare:   

[MarkT]

The local high school uses all iPad based ebooks, no textbooks.  All the iPads have unlimited online access, yeah, my tax dollars at work.  :glare:   

 

A whole lot of non-learning going on there! I guess this is good test of will-power for the students.

 

 

[wapiti]

dp

[wapiti]

My dd's private middle school uses on-line texts on ipad. There are few hard-copy books involved (paperbacks for lit are the most obvious exception).

 

She has taken to it much better than I would. There is a nice audio component that she uses on occasion. Not having to carry the books is a big plus as she has back issues and her backpack is heavy enough without them. Still, for some subjects, I think she would prefer the real book.

 

The private high school she will most likely attend is in the process of making the same move and will now require ipads rather than pc. The move will be on a book by book basis; they will not change just to change and want to keep the books they like. I am really annoyed because the on-line texts are an annual rental. With six kids likely to attend this school, I am not looking forward to repeat purchases. I already picked up a few used copies of some of their books just to have, while they're still cheaply available.

 

Public schools making a similar move is a much dicier proposition. Even with dd taking good care of her school ipad, she still dropped and cracked it at some point - we paid $50 for a year of insurance to cover that - but it is hard to imagine a typical PS student taking quite as much care if the school is paying for it.

[MarkT]

.

. I am really annoyed because the on-line texts are an annual rental. With six kids likely to attend this school, I am not looking forward to repeat purchases. I already picked up a few used copies of some of their books just to have, while they're still cheaply available.

 

The publishers will change the material enough each year to "obsolete" the copies you bought so better get used to the idea of paying a "subscription".  Of course the hard-copies will still be useable so probably a good investment. 

[wapiti]

The publishers will change the material enough each year to "obsolete" the copies you bought so better get used to the idea of paying a "subscription". Of course the hard-copies will still be useable so probably a good investment.

Oh yes we will still have to buy them (hmm what about my twins - not sure if I would be able to get away with one). But, the texts I have been picking up should be useful regardless for general topic coverage - dd already looked up stuff in the bio book (Campbell), for example, for a middle school science report.

[swimmermom3]

I think as a culture we believe that all new technology and its use is a positive thing. We've been trained to not really question that premise and if you are not an early adapter, you are "off-beat."  It's easy to see technology as the cure-all for American education. Kids can't read? Make sure they all have an iPad.I may be wrong, but I don't believe if we have invested in long term studies to examine the overall effectiveness of doing all work online. Is information processed in the same fashion? Is retention higher or lower? We've already talked about the studies that show that hand-written notes are more effective for retention than taking notes on your computer.  I know from having an 11th grade son doing the majority of his work online for Connections Academy that a significant amount of time was lost due to a "lack of focus." :tongue_smilie: 

 

There are many people who profit substantially from taking education online. We need to be sure that our students are doing the same.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

And yet these kids are expected to seamlessly make the transition to college, where they're supposed to already know how to navigate huge textbooks, take notes from them, use the TOC/index/glossary to find information, work the problems in the text, etc?   :confused1:

 

Maybe not.  The local CC is encouraging instructors to go text-less.  One of the reasons cited is student retention; students with little to no money are more likely to register for a course in which they do not have to buy textbooks.  Another reason was that students are not buying or reading the texts anyway.  Evidently, the bookstore has been returning scores of unpurchased textbooks at the end of each semester. 

 

I would say the percent of text-less classes at the CC is about 20%. A number that will rise next year as the pressure mounts to enroll and keep students.

 

The local high school will be going paperless this school year. Each student will have an Ipad and all textbooks will be available in electronic format only.

[Michelle_NC]

When my dd was in elementary school, they had textbooks but weren't allowed to bring them home, so I bought copies of everything so we had a set at home.  Ditto in middle school because it was easier than lugging a huge backpack home every day. In high school I only purchased Math and History.

 

We switched to homeschooling this year with a mix of co-op classes and dual enrollment classes at the local community college. I was pleasantly surprised that all of the CC courses had real textbooks as well as study guides that are almost as large as the book.  I love these study guides and wish this option was available back when I was in college!  I could see having a digital textbook if you had the printed study guide.

 

 

[Butter]

The middle and high school here issues textbooks for the students to keep at home.  They never bring them to school.  Classrooms have class sets to be used during the school day.  Honestly, it was very unusual for my kids (6th and 9th) to actually use those textbooks they had at home.  Most things were handouts or power points they could access on their teachers' websites or discussion in class.  They did a bit of lapbooking, too (they called it "foldables").  For example, in 9th grade biology and 6th grade history and English, they created what they called "interactive notebooks" as they went along learning things.  It was just lapbooking in a binder or in a composition book.  This made it much more fun to learn what needed to be learned than just using a textbook (and amazed me since it is a very "homeschooling" thing to do).

 

I went to nursing school and we were required to have $800 worth of textbooks (this was in the late 90s).  I never opened some of them the entire time and really only used my medication book and one textbook.  Pretty much everything was lecture/discussion (and clinicals).  It's much easier to learn outside a textbook (as most homeschoolers know).  The majority of my non-nursing classes used no textbook either.  I think that's pretty common in college.

 

Honestly, I'm not seeing this as a bad thing.

[Grantmom]

I agree that a lot of textbooks aren't even used a whole lot, not necessarily because the kid won't but because the teacher makes it so they don't have to.  And they are expensive and use resources from an environmental standpoint.  However, I still like the feel of having a book to read, being able to highlight, write things down, etc.  But maybe that's because that is how I learned, and we didn't have tablets and laptops, etc.  I don't think we know.

 

I will say that I do not like to read a book on my ipad.  I do sometimes, only because it is the cheaper or easier way to do it sometimes.   I am okay with reading fiction, but prefer my nook because it doesn't have the backlit screen, and I spend enough time looking at a screen.  But for non-fiction, to be able to look things up and use it as a reference, etc, I really prefer the actual book.

[Wheres Toto]

When I was in high school, we had actual textbooks (computers were pretty new back then).  We weren't allowed to highlight or take notes in the books since they were turned back in at the end of the year for reuse.  An ebook in a program that allows highlighting would actually be more helpful for studying.

[Renai]

When I was in high school, we had actual textbooks (computers were pretty new back then). We weren't allowed to highlight or take notes in the books since they were turned back in at the end of the year for reuse. An ebook in a program that allows highlighting would actually be more helpful for studying.

We weren't allowed to mark in books either. Interestingly, an actual book is still more helpful for me, as I have photographic memory. I remembered things by position on pages, right or left side, etc. I can't do that with an ebook. In my online grad courses, I always wind up printing out most of the textbook chapters to read them. Besides, too much screen time was working havoc on my already bad eyesight.

[Wheres Toto]

We weren't allowed to mark in books either. Interestingly, an actual book is still more helpful for me, as I have photographic memory. I remembered things by position on pages, right or left side, etc. I can't do that with an ebook. In my online grad courses, I always wind up printing out most of the textbook chapters to read them. Besides, too much screen time was working havoc on my already bad eyesight.

 

I never thought about this but I'm the same way with books - I picture the page, where things are on the page, pictures, etc.  It also work with finding places I've been before - I picture signs, landmarks, etc. but I've never noticed the same ability when using the computer.  Interesting.

 

[tvaleri]

Here in NC, it depends where the student is in school. Some (middle school) students are assigned laptops with all their books loaded. My daughter who just completed her Associate's Degree at community college, had to purchase actual books which she (gasp) read! A couple of her friends who are in university have to purchase hard copies of books. 

 

Wonder what Mr. Adler would think......

 

Smiles,

Teresa

 

 

[Kareni]

 

Wonder what Mr. Adler would think......

 

How to Read an iPad or How to Read a Computer Screen just don't have the same ring as How to Read a Book!

 

Regards,

Kareni