Saxon Math -- Early Impressions

[elmerRex]

People seem to think that Saxon is an especially poor fit for kids who are 'advanced' in math. I don't know if we are 'advanced'....though we are using 5/4 in 1st grade I don't think my son is advanced. Saxon begins very gently, and teaches in such a way that any and every student can expect to experience success. My son was was explicitly taught math, he didn't pick it up out of nowhere. He is not a super math genius, he is a good student though. He works hard.

 

I wanted to share our first impressions because when other people come searching or are considering Saxon math, I want them to come across our story and see that it can work for anyone so long as the student is willing to learn and the parent will dedicate themselves to the task of teaching, even when it is 'hard'. I had planned to use Saxon for a while, but I almost didn't use it because of what I've read on this forum, I am glad that I went with my first mind. Sorry this is going to be long because I'm trying to give a fair representation of how we are using Saxon.

 

Reading through this forum, I see that Saxon isn't always well received but for us, it has been nothing but good thus far. Where are the Saxon lovers hiding? We'd like to sign up! We've been using Saxon Math for about 1.5 weeks now and we absolutely love it. We are doing every problem in each and every lesson and we are on lesson 23. We will probably get done with lesson 25 and maybe even 26 by tonight. My son likes math but is not super good at math, however he is a hard worker. He thinks that solving math problems and doing math exercises is fun past time but he has a medium-low tolerance for really frustrating stuff. He will cry if he has 'baby work'.

 

10 days in and my son adores his math work and is trying to cut out other subjects (literacy skills!) for another Saxon Session almost every day now. He really likes Saxon. Is this the new lovers phase or do other kids get this enamored with (Saxon) math too? I don't know, but I know that Saxon is working like magic for us in many different ways.

 

1) He is encouraged and emboldened by his success--his confidence is rising!

2) The problem sets are genius! We use Saxon mostly for the problem sets which contain a lot of stealthy and valuable learning for the student which look like "repetitive drill" but are more than that.

3) He is progressing nicely in Saxon and he said that math is his favorite subject yesterday! YAY!

4) My sons friend said that she hates math because its always too hard and makes her feel dumb and my son said: "Ask your parents to buy you Saxon math--its so cool! If you study that book you will get perfect math work everyday" (he wasn't talking about a perfect score, he meant it wont be too easy or too hard!)

 

I know that someone is going to jump in and say it, but I work with my son very closely during his math studies and Saxon has not been too easy or too difficult for him--I think that it is just right and it holds his interest too. He is not getting everything perfect without effort. He has to focus to get through the word and usually he still doesn't make an A. Often he'll get a 'C' the first time around. I have noticed that in general his grades are going up. He's made 2 A's in the last 5 days. (please see the note about how and why we 'grade')

 

He really needs varied practice to hold his interest at just the right level of difficulty and with Saxon he is getting that varied practice at just the right level. Doing 100 sums isn't fun for him, but doing 100 mixed problems--counting, 'tricky' +/- problems, patterns, clocks, word problems--is. He usually focuses well during Saxon and tries to get the answers correct the first time, he is engaged and eager when he does his work.

 

Here is how we use the program: We do Saxon math over two periods each day

Morning Math: I teach 2-3 lessons at a time at the white board in the morning. (depending on the topics and my time)

---We do not use the Saxon terminology (ie "some and some more") because we already know addend, sum, etc...

---I teach using my own words, after having preread the lesson. BUT

---I teach the skills as scheduled and use the lesson examples. We do all of the examples during this block.

---He does the lesson practice on a home-made worksheet so he can show all the steps/keep orderly notes. He has supervision but minimal guidance or assistance on the lesson practice.

---Then we do mental math, fact drill and word problems (this is separate from Saxon math. We are NOT using Saxons fact drills only because do our own. From what I can tell Math---no matter what curriculum you use--is made easier by doing daily drill of facts practice and revision of number bonds.)

 

Evening Math: He has recess and does other subjects while I check over his Saxon lesson practice and his word problems and we eat lunch. I have coffee or tea while the kids wash up the lunch dishes, then we go over any lesson problems he got wrong, then he sits to do the problem sets from the 2 or 3 lessons that were taught that morning. He does Saxon Math problems for 60 minutes a day, everyday. He is gaining a great deal of speed with the basic calculations, the basic algebra equations are easy for him because his facts are fresh in his mind and the strategies that Saxon teaches.

 

He says that he likes that Saxon shows him the same math from different ways and helps him to figure out what he's supposed to do, he loves that it teaches so clearly. Being a little boy he is also easily frustrated and our greatest fear was that he'd be so discouraged he'd lose the will to try. Saxon is doing wonders for him already. For him, he needs the practice and incremental increase in difficulty to boost his confidence, shore up his weaknesses and automate his skills. His confidence is sky rocketing. His skills are getting sharper. He likes it better than we'd anticipated and is doing very well. Sometimes he asks for math at bedtime, so we've been doing those Warm Up boxes at night, once he's in bed as a night time treat.

 

Educational Bonus: My son is pushing to read his word problems all by himself because sometimes he still needs help with the reading. So, even thought they aren't "challenging" word problems, Saxon is encouraging him to read more!

 

Now, full disclosure:

a--My son was taught math as I said, he isn't a math genius who figures it all out on his own.

b--We did not use a curriculum but we worked with him on math before he started using Saxon.

c--He tested into Saxon 5/4 via placement test.

d--He did not do as well on the placement test as I would have guessed.

e--We've only been using Saxon 10 days so far.

f --we do 300 math facts each day in +,-,x,/ (25 of each operation before or after each meal.)

g--my husband and I have set an  A at 93-98%, B at 87-92% and a C at 76-86% and F is anything below a 75%. An A+ would be 99 or 100 percent, I don't believe in scores of more than 100%. We use his grades only for evaluation purposes and don't pressure him with numerical percentage scores, instead I mark his mistakes and he gets a different "facey" drawn at the top for each grade: A = :hurray: Alright, way to go! , B = :thumbup:  Keep up the good work! and a C = :001_smile: Not bad, but keep trying!

So far my son hasn't ever gotten an A+ or an F. This way he never feels discouraged but at a glance, his dad and I have an idea of how he did that day in math.

 

 

As of right now, he still gets some non-Saxon math lessons from me or his dad 2 - 4 times a week--Our lessons are usually much shorter about 15-30 minutes at a time, but we are teaching him basic elementary math skills through problem solving without a curriculum and its a slower process. We plan to continue with those mom and pop math lessons. We probably spend a minimum of 90 minutes on Saxon math each day with the aim of cutting back to about 60 minutes as we get into the harder lessons. I will try to update this review again after we finish lesson 40, the 1/3 point.

 

 

 

[coffeegal]

Thanks for sharing! We use Saxon although none of mine were into Saxon 54 in the first grade. :001_smile: I'll be interested to hear your experiences over the next few months. :bigear:

[elmerRex]

Thanks for sharing! We use Saxon although none of mine were into Saxon 54 in the first grade. :001_smile: I'll be interested to hear your experiences over the next few months. :bigear:

Well to be fair, even though this is "first grade" because he is 6, we begin our kids formal educations as toddlers so my son has had about 3.5 years of actual math instruction. Just like you would expect a 4th grader would have. He has experience/exposure to varying degrees with math topics ranging up to 5th grade level. But I think that his conceptual mastery is closer to 2nd or 3rd grade level, his computation skills are solidly 2nd grade so Saxon 5/4 isn't easy for him, but its not wearing him too thin either, its a nice level of challenge for our son at this time.

 

Also, and I forgot to mention this. Work ethic and focus is very important in our household so outside of direct lesson time, we expect for our kids to do their evening math with minimal oversight and we teach our toddlers with that end in mind. At 4 they are required to do 20 math problems each evening, with minimal help, they have to do 50 each evening at 5, and 70 each evening at 6. By the time that they are 7 years old, they should be able to do 100 math problems on their own---not just math facts, but typical grade level math problems within 1 hour. So Saxon Math isn't a huge jump in work load either from Moms Math. <--That fact makes a big, big, big, difference I think.

 

It isn't about making them super stars, its because we want our kids to be independent, studious and learn focus, discipline and work ethic but we can't afford instruments!

 

I fully expect that he will slow down in his progress as we progress eventually, but I'm not sure when. Probably somewhere around lesson 48-62

[EmseB]

I don't know if you will find many people doing 54 in 1st grade, but I'm a fan of Saxon in general.  We do one year ahead, so Saxon 1 starts in K here.

[kiwik]

I haven't heard many people criticize Saxon from 54 up - a lot of people prefer something else but most of the criticism is for the early years.

[Homeschoolmom3]

The rigor is not much in the early years but when I started out homeschooling my kids were a little older in the elementary years and since the private school they attended prior used Saxon I stuck with it.  It worked for my kids and they have done very well with it.  I used it through Pre-Algebra but then we were looking for something a bit more rigorous and went with Harold Jacobs for Alg. & Geometry.  As I am having to start over again looking at Math programs for my little one I have come back to Saxon because:

 

1. it works

2. love the drills (even though my kids got sick of them by the end...but life isn't all sweet with a bed of roses...:) 

3. easy to implement

 

My oldest could read and learn it on his own never really had to teach him.  The set up is perfect for those type A kids....

 

My 3 yr. old is doing Saxon K this year and enjoying it wanted to be like brothers and it is like you said a gentle program in the beginning....so I can see if you start early how you can move up quickly.  But 5/4 at 1st grade is impressive.  Hope it works well with him!

 

So yes, I am still a Saxon fan...... :hurray:

[Hunter]

I used Saxon high school with my math accelerated younger son. There were times I was shamed into using something "better" with him and told he "deserved" more, and that as a non gifted person I did not have the experience to know what he needed. All I know is that switching from Saxon did not work for us.

 

I have seen all levels of Saxon slammed, not just here, and not just currently. I've seen it slammed since I was using it in the 90s, and slammed evenly more heavily for gifted and accelerated students than more average students.

 

ElmerRex, an average child no matter how well taught would not be able to complete Saxon 54 and certainly would not enjoy it. You son is gifted. And that is okay–really it is. Saxon is an excellent choice for some gifted children. If it's working, stick with it. Thank you for posting your experience of using Saxon with a gifted child. I'm sure it's an inspiration to other moms who are planning right now and are feeling shamed into using something else that is unlikely to work better for them.

[bethben]

My 13 year old will be doing advanced math this coming year, so I guess he's accelerated.  I too have felt shamed into trying something else.  It didn't work.  All I got was confusion and forgetting previous concepts because it was a mastery program and not spiral.  All my children are doing Saxon now and they know math very well.  My 9 year old needs more than one introduction to a new concept before he really understands so I know that if he doesn't get something new right away, we will be reviewing it every day for a while until it's solid in his mind.  I don't know about problem solving skills other than my 9 year old can figure out change for a $10 bill better than most teen store clerks who have to rely on a machine and my 13 year old can figure out all his physical science equations without any problem.

 

Beth

[Roadrunner]

I have nothing against Saxon, but if I had a first grader doing fifth grade program, I would take a second look at the program. Sorry.

[Guest]

Every time I have read this thread in the past few days, it leaves me scratching my head. I keep re-checking to see if this is on the accelerated board, but it's not. I'm glad it is working for you, but I would not consider anything about your situation typical, and having owned/used Saxon K-5/4, I would never recommend to someone to use 5/4 with a 1st grader. I realize you are just trying to promote the program, but I don't think using it in the manner that you are using it gives an accurate picture of Saxon math.

 

 

I wanted to share our first impressions because when other people come searching or are considering Saxon math, I want them to come across our story and see that it can work for anyone so long as the student is willing to learn and the parent will dedicate themselves to the task of teaching, even when it is 'hard'.

 

[MommytoFour]

I know you said you don't consider your child advanced, but if he's doing 5/4 in first grade -- he's advanced. Also, you said that he does 300 math facts a day. Is that written work or oral? That seems like a lot of writing (in addition to the 60 Saxon problems he's doing a day).

 

You also said your son has had about 3.5 years of actual math instruction prior to Saxon. I'm curious what you used for that instruction.

 

You should probably post this on the accelerated board because not many first graders are using Saxon 5/4. So you might get more input over there.

[Alte Veste Academy]

But I think that his conceptual mastery is closer to 2nd or 3rd grade level, his computation skills are solidly 2nd grade so Saxon 5/4 isn't easy for him, but its not wearing him too thin either, its a nice level of challenge for our son at this time.

I don't understand this. In my opinion, it is putting the cart before the horse to move forward in math before securing conceptual understanding at the preceding levels. Personally, I would be extremely concerned that continuing in this way will lead to a student who displays procedural accuracy without conceptual understanding, which is the most common criticism of Saxon that I have heard over my years on these boards.

[elmerRex]

The rigor is not much in the early years but when I started out homeschooling my kids were a little older in the elementary years and since the private school they attended prior used Saxon I stuck with it.  It worked for my kids and they have done very well with it.  I used it through Pre-Algebra but then we were looking for something a bit more rigorous and went with Harold Jacobs for Alg. & Geometry.  As I am having to start over again looking at Math programs for my little one I have come back to Saxon because:

 

1. it works

2. love the drills (even though my kids got sick of them by the end...but life isn't all sweet with a bed of roses... :)

3. easy to implement

 

My oldest could read and learn it on his own never really had to teach him.  The set up is perfect for those type A kids....

 

My 3 yr. old is doing Saxon K this year and enjoying it wanted to be like brothers and it is like you said a gentle program in the beginning....so I can see if you start early how you can move up quickly.  But 5/4 at 1st grade is impressive.  Hope it works well with him!

 

So yes, I am still a Saxon fan...... :hurray:

 

 

I used Saxon high school with my math accelerated younger son. There were times I was shamed into using something "better" with him and told he "deserved" more, and that as a non gifted person I did not have the experience to know what he needed. All I know is that switching from Saxon did not work for us.

 

I have seen all levels of Saxon slammed, not just here, and not just currently. I've seen it slammed since I was using it in the 90s, and slammed evenly more heavily for gifted and accelerated students than more average students.

 

ElmerRex, an average child no matter how well taught would not be able to complete Saxon 54 and certainly would not enjoy it. You son is gifted. And that is okay–really it is. Saxon is an excellent choice for some gifted children. If it's working, stick with it. Thank you for posting your experience of using Saxon with a gifted child. I'm sure it's an inspiration to other moms who are planning right now and are feeling shamed into using something else that is unlikely to work better for them.

 

I have nothing against Saxon, but if I had a first grader doing fifth grade program, I would take a second look at the program. Sorry.

As I understood it, and I could be wrong, Saxon 5/4 is a multilevel program that is appropriate for 3rd-6th graders. I read that the publishers demanded a number level for the cover, but Saxon Math really is an incremental skills-based program despite the numbers on the cover.

 

Every time I have read this thread in the past few days, it leaves me scratching my head. I keep re-checking to see if this is on the accelerated board, but it's not. I'm glad it is working for you, but I would not consider anything about your situation typical, and having owned/used Saxon K-5/4, I would never recommend to someone to use 5/4 with a 1st grader. I am not recommending the Saxon program, just leaving our experience for others considering it because when I read on this board, I felt uncertain about my choice of Saxon, when before I had looked it over and felt confident in it. I don't want parents to dismiss or doubt Saxon out of hand. My point is showing that with accommodations this program can be useful to any child in a  3rd-5th grade level that is receptive to this style of teaching. I realize you are just trying to promote the program, but I don't think using it in the manner that you are using it gives an accurate picture of Saxon math.

I'm not sure if you mean promote like financially but I'm not trying to promote the program in a commercial sense. I want to leave a review of our first impressions with it. I get nothing out of people using or not using the program, I'm not affiliated with the program or getting commission I saw a lot mixed reviews about Saxon math on the internet and many of the comments on this board seem to be anti-Saxon or to say Saxon isn't a good fit for kids good at math/gifted at math. So far, we have a boy who is good at math but not gifted. We are only in the early stages but Saxon seems gentle but solidly put together..

 

I know you said you don't consider your child advanced, but if he's doing 5/4 in first grade -- he's advanced. Also, you said that he does 300 math facts a day. Is that written work or oral? That seems like a lot of writing (in addition to the 60 Saxon problems he's doing a day). I'm sorry, I should have said gifted. He isn't gifted or genius. He just takes maths lessons. And I am sorry that I wasn't clear about the math facts. He does them orally with flash cards. Writing that many facts for him would be too hard.  When they are seated but waiting for meals or lingering after eating, he does his math facts, takes him about 1 min for + & -, and up to 3 for * & / because he is still learning them. I do think that having strong fact-fluency is key to success with school mathematics period. I made a point of saying we do not use Saxons drill pages/schedule, but I wanted to make clear that we are definitely hitting them.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the reasoning for putting a child with 2nd-3rd grade conceptual mastery into a curriculum at the 4th-5th grade level.

From what I can tell, Saxon is about skill levels more than grade levels, he has complete conceptual mastery of the key K-2 math concepts (counting, number bonds, even-odd, base-10, addition and subtraction) that make the skills easier to practice and thus easier to a master (fact fluency, regrouping in addition and subtraction, etc) We are using Saxon Math to master the execution of algorithms that he already understands the reasoning behind, among other reasons.

In my opinion, it is putting the cart before the horse to move forward in math before securing conceptual understanding at the preceding levels. Personally, I would be extremely concerned that continuing in this way will lead to a student who displays procedural accuracy without conceptual understanding, which is the most common criticism of Saxon that I have heard over my years on these boards. 

[Hunter]

Just because there are specialty forums doesn't mean people dealing with specialties can only post there! The general forums are for everyone!

 

And some people don't believe their children are special. They get to do that if they want to. They have their reasons for believing what they believe. We all have our reasons for what we believe.

[MommytoFour]

Of course people can post wherever they want. I just said that the OP might get more feedback in that forum, considering it's not the norm to have a first grader doing fourth grade math and doing 300 math facts a day.

[Ad astra]

Every time I have read this thread in the past few days, it leaves me scratching my head. I keep re-checking to see if this is on the accelerated board, but it's not. I'm glad it is working for you, but I would not consider anything about your situation typical, and having owned/used Saxon K-5/4, I would never recommend to someone to use 5/4 with a 1st grader. I realize you are just trying to promote the program, but I don't think using it in the manner that you are using it gives an accurate picture of Saxon math.

 

Ouch. That seems a bit harsh. So, can parents with accelerated kids post only on the accelerated board? And who said the parents with non-accelerated kids don't belong there? We are all different and so are our kids. Think we are here to share each other's wisdom, not to divide and differentiate. What I like about this forum is that I can choose what I need and what I relate to from diverse stories.

 

 

I saw a lot mixed reviews about Saxon math on the internet and many of the comments on this board seem to be anti-Saxon or to say Saxon isn't a good fit for kids good at math/gifted at math. So far, we have a boy who is good at math but not gifted. We are only in the early stages but Saxon seems gentle but solidly put together..

 

My son is also a bit accelerated and as a newbie this was the general impression I got about Saxon from this forum so I've never bothered to look into it. Thank you for sharing your experience in detail. I decided to give a second thought on the program and try it out.

[Guest]

Ouch. That seems a bit harsh. So, can parents with accelerated kids post only on the accelerated board? And who said the parents with non-accelerated kids don't belong there? We are all different and so are our kids. Think we are here to share each other's wisdom, not to divide and differentiate. What I like about this forum is that I can choose what I need and what I relate to from diverse stories.

 

Nothing harsh intended. I've been hanging around here for many years and have seen a fair share of "differences". I have gone through my fair share of differences. If we're all sharing our experiences here, I just wanted to make sure that moms don't get stressed out when they see a child that age doing that math level or feel like that's where their child should be in math. I have used Saxon K-5/4. I have sung it's praises, seen it's good and bad. When my son was advanced in math in the younger years, I liked following the advice I got to move horizontally in math, rather than jumping so far ahead. That being said, I have NO idea who the OP is or their situation. If this is what works for them, great! Is this story a typical Saxon story? No. That's all I was trying to say. Sorry if it was taken differently.

 

So, can parents with accelerated kids post only on the accelerated board? And who said the parents with non-accelerated kids don't belong there?

 

Um, I didn't say this. You may have read that into what I said, but all I meant was that I found it odd that someone was praising Saxon 5/4 for a 1st grader. That's not something you generally see on the K-8/General boards. That's all.

[Ad astra]

Yes, I understand what you mean and I've seen the "typical" Saxon stories you're talking about. I just think the point shouldn't be about how old the OP's kid is and at which level he's working. The OP was only saying, against the general consensus, Saxon can be a solid and effective program for some mathy/gifted kids and she elaborated why. I appreciate this opinion from a new angle.

[nansk]

I have nothing against Saxon, but if I had a first grader doing fifth grade program, I would take a second look at the program. Sorry.

What?!

These forums have several instances of lower primary students doing Singapore Maths, Math Mammoth, Beast Academy, AOPS, and what not. Are you saying you judge those programs as "easy" because some little kids are progressing fast in them?!

[Roadrunner]

What?!

These forums have several instances of lower primary students doing Singapore Maths, Math Mammoth, Beast Academy, AOPS, and what not. Are you saying you judge those programs as "easy" because some little kids are progressing fast in them?!

I am saying that having a first grader in fifth grade math program is specifically a type of situation that would cause me to reexamine my choices. I have an older son who would have probably finished through SM 7th grade if I weren't actively seeking out challenging materials to deepen and slow him down. We will be moving to Aops.

What I am trying to say is for a gifted child (and yes, either a program is ridiculously lacking, or this child is gifted managing to work so far ahead), one needs to at least explore the options. Sure, there are kids doing aops 4 years ahead, but those are few.

[Hunter]

My gifted child never used any of the fancier type math that was SO hard for me to purchase/learn/teach. I drained our resources on something that brought no payback.

 

Not all moms of gifted kids are financially secure, healthy, gifted, etc. And many have other children, and sometimes none of them are the same type of gifted. It's okay for moms to use what they have for all their kids, even the gifted ones.

 

Math is a HUGE field. Not all of it is part of the 3Rs. Some of it is an art. Art is beautiful, and we need SOME arts and some beauty in our lives, but not all students and not even all gifted children need a SUPER wide math curriculum. And anyway, Saxon is getting wider and wider with every edition; too wide for ME, even if I'm teaching a gifted student.

 

A student who LOVES math and is going to USE it, can always widen out when they become capable of self-educating and interacting with mentors without mom in the picture. A student who cannot self-educate and interact with mentors is not going to be a student capable of using fancy/wide/beautiful math, so in the LONG run it doesn't matter.

 

The pressure to teach every child like a future mathematician is just too much. It's unbalanced. It's unrealistic. It's a waste of resources.

 

It's first grade! I don't care what a mom uses, or if she uses anything at all. As long as the kid is happy and healthy and learning and is busy doing SOMETHING, even if it's mostly just playing. Six year olds still need rhythm and balance and play and stories more than math.

 

And another thing about narrow, I think basic arithmetic and the decimal number system is even more beautiful that any of the other math that many people think are so beautiful and important. I am just in awe of our number system. Algorithms are beautiful, and very useful. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Saxon was never algorithm based and it certainly isn't now. The original books that were overseen by Saxon were developmentally appropriate, but as Hake continues to update the editions they are becoming ridiculously rigorous and wide. Saxon is becoming a curriculum designed ONLY for gifted students!

 

I think algorithm based curricula for the first few years are GREAT. I do. Even for the gifted ones. And I think they are good all the way up, UNTIL the student shows SOCIAL skills as well as mathematical gifting and the CHARACTER to tackle more. If a mom loves math, and has the resources to do more and wants to do more and the kid wants to do more–sure go wider and fancier. But lets not INFLICT wide and rigorous and expensive and hard to teach math on EVERYONE. And Saxon is increasingly too wide and rigorous and expensive and hard to teach anyway.

[wapiti]

My two cents - three areas of potential issues come to mind. First, lesson length and necessary handwriting can become an issue when the asynchronous abilities of a young gifted student conflict. This can be true of any program, but the lesson length involved in Saxon is often longer than that of other programs. Second, the organization of Saxon may make it more difficult logistically to skip amounts of repetition that may eventually become unnecessary - to the point of being counterproductive - for *some* gifted students. Third, as the student gets older and ready for more depth (as a big-picture goal of more fully-developing the student's considerable area of strength), adding more resources from elsewhere may also add logistical difficulty considering organization and lesson length.

 

As an observation, having some fairly accelerated math students myself, the amount of sheer time that the OP's student spends on math seems developmentally inappropriate IMO, especially to the extent that it is not driven by the student himself. I would keep an eye out for resistance lest the current schedule backfire against the student's joy of learning math.

 

Also, a week and a half might not be sufficient time to evaluate any program, particularly since the beginning of a level is commonly review of topics the student learned previously.

 

All that said, it's always a good thing to feel happy with one's math program :)

[MotherOfBoys]

My first grader would be doing 5/4 or higher if we stayed with saxon last year. It is a good program. I do think there is something good in switching to a different style program to check for gaps in concepts and go deeper into some math concepts instead, also. That's why the accelerated board mentions beast and challenge math so much. Now that you know the operations can you solve word problems with more steps and no directions on HOW to solve them.

 

It was easier for me to accelerate mm, a mastery program, then saxon to get my son to where he needed to be. The right amount of challenge. 

 

Edited to add: there's a point where the child hits the right level of challenge where a half hour to an hour is plenty. Then you expand with other content subjects. Make them well rounded. 

[Roadrunner]

My gifted child never used any of the fancier type math that was SO hard for me to purchase/learn/teach. I drained our resources on something that brought no payback.

 

Not all moms of gifted kids are financially secure, healthy, gifted, etc. And many have other children, and sometimes none of them are the same type of gifted. It's okay for moms to use what they have for all their kids, even the gifted ones.

 

I want to respond to this so people don't dismiss other programs because they will assume they are expensive, hard to teach….. We all strive here to provide the best education for our children. Some curricula is outright targeted at mathematically gifted kids because those kids need to be challenged. Those programs aren't necessarily hard to teach or expensive. AoPS is very reasonably priced and written to the student, so you don't even have to teach it. AoPS isn't the best fit for every gifted child, but the odds are it might be a better fit than Saxon, because it is precisely written for that audience. Saxon isn't targeting strictly that subgroup. Again, I am not dissing Saxon, just saying that a kid doing math 5 years ahead might be better served with something else. 

 

Math is a HUGE field. Not all of it is part of the 3Rs. Some of it is an art. Art is beautiful, and we need SOME arts and some beauty in our lives, but not all students and not even all gifted children need a SUPER wide math curriculum. And anyway, Saxon is getting wider and wider with every edition; too wide for ME, even if I'm teaching a gifted student.

 

And how do you decide which gifted kid needs a deep math curriculum and which one doesn't? I decide by letting them try. 

 

A student who LOVES math and is going to USE it, can always widen out when they become capable of self-educating and interacting with mentors without mom in the picture. A student who cannot self-educate and interact with mentors is not going to be a student capable of using fancy/wide/beautiful math, so in the LONG run it doesn't matter.

The pressure to teach every child like a future mathematician is just too much. It's unbalanced. It's unrealistic. It's a waste of resources.

 

The pressure isn't to teach every child like a future mathematician, but to recognize and nurture gifts. I am assuming that's why we homeschool. Well, that's why I homeschool at least. Our local PS was doing a bang of a job teaching at a mediocre level. 

 

It's first grade! I don't care what a mom uses, or if she uses anything at all. As long as the kid is happy and healthy and learning and is busy doing SOMETHING, even if it's mostly just playing. Six year olds still need rhythm and balance and play and stories more than math.

 

Obviously this family disagrees with you, since this particular child is doing fifth grade math. 

 

And another thing about narrow, I think basic arithmetic and the decimal number system is even more beautiful that any of the other math that many people think are so beautiful and important. I am just in awe of our number system. Algorithms are beautiful, and very useful. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Saxon was never algorithm based and it certainly isn't now. The original books that were overseen by Saxon were developmentally appropriate, but as Hake continues to update the editions they are becoming ridiculously rigorous and wide. Saxon is becoming a curriculum designed ONLY for gifted students!

 

That's a statement not supported  by the publisher. I hope nobody reads this and discounts using Saxon because it is only for gifted students. It's not. It's a good program for a lot of kids, just probably not those doing math 5 years ahead of the curve. 

 

I think algorithm based curricula for the first few years are GREAT. I do. Even for the gifted ones. And I think they are good all the way up, UNTIL the student shows SOCIAL skills as well as mathematical gifting and the CHARACTER to tackle more. If a mom loves math, and has the resources to do more and wants to do more and the kid wants to do more–sure go wider and fancier. But lets not INFLICT wide and rigorous and expensive and hard to teach math on EVERYONE. And Saxon is increasingly too wide and rigorous and expensive and hard to teach anyway.

 

Really? What do you base this on? Studies? Links? 

 

[kiwik]

While everyone is perfectly free to post on whichever board they choose... Parents of gifted kids and/or accelerated kids usually learn quite quickly that it upsets other people to bring it to their attention. For this reason most people post the stuff about their kid doing algebra at 8 on the accelerated learner board, their sensory issues on the challenges board and their general curriculum questions on this board.

[Roadrunner]

While everyone is perfectly free to post on whichever board they choose... Parents of gifted kids and/or accelerated kids usually learn quite quickly that it upsets other people to bring it to their attention. For this reason most people post the stuff about their kid doing algebra at 8 on the accelerated learner board, their sensory issues on the challenges board and their general curriculum questions on this board.

Or if you don't know what you have on your hands, you remain homeless, like me. :)

[elmerRex]

We firmly believe that success in school mathematics for the average child is a matter of appropriate instruction, diligent practice and the time spent on task.

 

From what I understand this is why many Asian countries have such fantastic test scores compared to most US students. For example, it is not Singapore Primary Mathematics that makes Singaporean kids, as a whole, so good at math, it is the flexibility and skill of the teacher and program (aka appropriate instruction), the diligent practice that kids put into their work in and out of the classroom (shout out to Singaporean communities for this.) Plus the time spent on task--cram schools, at home drills, home works, etc.

 

Yes, there are really awful programs out there, and there are really good ones, but the teacher-curriculum and teacher-student connection is what allows these programs to be useful or useless. Curriculum is like a hammer--it is a tool. Whether your math curriculum is junk or jewels depends on how it is used--this goes for Beast Academy, Primary Mathematics, RightStart, Miqoun, Saxon and everything else.

 

In the Spirit of the Program, we look at Saxon Math (5/4 up) as a SKILL BASED program. Because when John Saxon developed the curriculum he didn't have a grade/age in mind when he wrote it, only a skill level. They tacked on a Grade Number AFTER THE FACT. If you look at the Saxon 5/4 program and problem sets, they will vary between what you'd expect in a 3rd-5th grade program. Please believe me when I say that our son is not "gifted". However, my son has had 3yrs of math instruction already--just as most 2nd or 3rd graders do. Our son had the benefit of not 1, but 2 "private tutors" (his parents) working with him and not 1 or 2 lessons a week, like a normal supplementary or enrichment program, but 1 or 2 math sessions/lessons a day, 3 or 4 days a week, plus daily review/practice.

 

I think that for most young kids, the biggest trial in using any formal math book, would not be the topic of a lesson itself, (arithmetic really is quite simple and straightforward.) but the presentation of the material and the density of the material in a lesson. Presentation can mean a lot to young kids. I learned this the hard way when my son was younger and I was trying to work with him.

 

Again, for some perspective if you look at the Table of Contents for Saxon Math 5/4 you will see that of the first 30 lessons of Saxon Math 54, 20 of them focus on number patterns, place value or addition and subtraction to varying degrees of difficulty with numbers 0-999. My son has his +/- math facts down pat, so that helps a lot. Place value is nothing knew to him.The 10 non-addition/subtraction lessons aren't things that most grade K-3 students don't have some experience with--in real life and in school. These are the lessons that aren't centered on +/-

 

L5: Ordinals/Months of the Year (life skill that my son was familiar with)

L18: Reading Scales (life skill that my son was familiar with)

L19: Reading a Clock (life skill that my son knew how to do)

L21: Triangles, Rectangles, Squares and Circles (gentle introduction to geometry, my son knows his shapes)

L22: Naming Fractions/Adding Dollars and Cents (life/math skill that my son was familiar with)

L23: Lines, Rays, Segments and Angles (completely new to him)

L26: Drawing Pictures of Fractions (this skill is taught in many cheap K workbooks. Not exceptional.)

L27: Multiplication as Repeated Addition/ Elapsed Time (My son knows the basics of how to multiply)

L28: Multiplication Table (My son has never studied from the table, but he knows how to multiply and most of his multiplication facts)

L29: Multiplication Facts 0s, 1s, 2s and 5s. (My son knows these multiplication facts very well.)

 

Lessons 1-4, 6-17, 20, 24-25, and 30 are explicitly about counting, number patterns, adding/subtracting. They gradually get harder or more advanced, but really is just adding and subtracting. I would be thoroughly shocked to learn that the average 6yo is not capable of adding and subtracting numbers into the 1000s when they are given appropriate instruction, practice diligently and spend adequate time on it. The problem is that they aren't widely expected to do it, so very few curriculum are tailored to that end, not that 6 year olds, as a rule, can't.

 

Also, please know that Saxon 54 has a scope and sequence that truly is gentle and it builds upon itself gradually and continuously. Some people think that this makes Saxon weak, I think that this just makes it gentle. My son needs gentle, he needs consistent, he needs review and he needs variety to hold his interest. Saxon Math 5/4 is meeting those needs for him. 

 

From what I can tell, the genius of Saxon is in the problem sets, which do two things--1) require that the student make little but constant stretches in their knowledge 2) never allow students to forget anything! Understanding the concept but forgetting the details is something that my son had trouble with. He has trouble "pulling it all together" to solve more advanced problems and it was frustrating for him, I am optimistic that Saxon will help to change this.

 

Please note: I am not saying that Saxon Math 54 is the best math curriculum or that it is appropriate for all 6yo or a good fit for even most 6yo kids, but I don't think that the material contained in the first 30 lessons is beyond reach for the average 6yo just because they are 6. I could be wrong. I may be wrong, but I'm putting it out there. I encourage all parents to take a close look at whatever math they plan to use, to assess their kids skills, temperament, willingness and needs and above all to use their judgement.

 

Despite my praise of the program, *I* would not have allowed Saxon Math 54 to by my 6yos first introduction to mathematics--The format is dense and the problem sets are too long for most to jump into for the first time, it could be that it moves too fast for some kids and you'd need to do 1 lesson every 2 days. That is ok. That is a part of providing appropriate instruction.

 

My son has an advantage in that

1) he is not self-teaching with Saxon mathbook, We are teaching him and over seeing the lessons, confusion is dealt with immediately, he has support if he needs it, the moment that he needs it.

2) he doesn't study from the text so the books format isn't a problem. We print out his problem sets and scale up the page so that it is large font, and he has room to write directly on the page.

3) So far, we are covering in Saxon 5/4 only material that he is familiar with. I expect my son will slow down as he gets into material that is less and less familiar to him. I do expect that he will, in general, be able to complete 1 lesson a day in Saxon 54 though there may be a few lessons that are exceptions.

4) Our kids are used to Quiet Study Time, when they must do work diligently for X minutes and

5) He is used to having 'a lot' of problems. So he isn't over whelmed or anxious at just the thought of doing 54 math problems. He's mentally and emotionally calm when he does his work.

6) And I can't say this enough--my son knows his facts. Very well. He really spends no time in calculating those basic facts, this makes Saxon go much, much, much, much faster!

 

So far, for my son at this time and this stage of his development, Saxon Math is an awfully good fit for him and for us. I don't know if we'll always be able to continue with Saxon, though it would be nice.

 

I will update this thread every month or so, so others who are interested can see how it works for us, in our home.

[kiana]

 

Please believe me when I say that our son is not "gifted". However, my son has had 3yrs of math instruction already--just as most 2nd or 3rd graders do. Our son had the benefit of not 1, but 2 "private tutors" (his parents) working with him and not 1 or 2 lessons a week, like a normal supplementary or enrichment program, but 1 or 2 math sessions/lessons a day, 3 or 4 days a week, plus daily review/practice.

 

There are a fair number of kids (most of them) who could have received the same amount and quality of mathematics instruction at that age and still not be ready to work on Saxon 5/4.

 

There's nothing wrong with what you're doing, but just be aware that your child is a fair bit above average -- and that is, after all, what "gifted" means.

 

 

[Hunter]

ElmerRex, you are not describing a typical American or even Asian 6 year old. Diligence will not result in producing these same results with all 6 year olds.

 

America is not Singapore. We don't have national health care here, and most moms work instead of being able to cater to their families. And we have generations of education neglect layered on generations of the neglect of basic needs that other countries label as human rights. Although this affects public school more than homeschoolers, by my PM box, I know these issues do affect the homeschooling community, too. There are homeschooling families who are facing food scarcity, a mom who works, and lack of access to proper medical and dental care. And some are dealing with the distracting ever-present cloud of domestic abuse, hanging over the home. Some moms are from quiver-full churches and are constantly pregnant.

 

I want to also respond to RoadRunner's comment about homeschooling to increase rigor. Not all families homeschool for reasons of increasing rigor. In fact some families are homeschooling specifically to REDUCE early rigor. There are religious reasons and safety reasons and distance reasons and health reasons and mental health reasons and sensory issues and child work reasons and just an endless list of reasons families homeschool.

 

I have lived in more than one country and in different subcultures in each of those countries, and I had one "gifted" and one "normal" child and a host of younger siblings and step siblings from all ranges of abilities that I was responsible for. I have lived as a top 1%er and I have lived in welfare slums and have been homeless. I lived among all types of Christians and I have also lived among traditional witchcraft. I have not only seen a lot, but have LIVED a lot.

 

Especially here in America, there is no one size fits all 6 year old and no one size fits all curriculum for 6 year olds. But if I had to pick a default curriculum for all 6 year olds, it certainly would NOT be Saxon 54. Heavens no! :eek:

 

I also cannot agree with the default idea of the early prep necessary for Saxon 54 at 6. Yes, there are SOME children who NEED academics younger than 6 or 7, but they are fewer than those damaged by the practice. And this is coming from a woman who risked beatings to teach herself to read at 4 years old. I was DESPERATE to learn. I was in pain, not learning. But that is not the norm. There are far more children in pain from being rushed.

 

Another point I want to make is that gifted and LD people are just people. All people are people first and foremost. It does our world no good to subdivide people up. We need to learn more tolerance and acceptance of diverse members, and to find ways to include them if they will let us. And diverse people need to understand that the general population isn't always like them and need to learn to be more aware and sometimes accommodating of the realities of "normal".

 

I had to teach my child that he was gifted, because otherwise he just thought those around him were not trying hard enough. I taught him that he was different and that it wasn't better or worse just different. He had unique strengths and weaknesses that when combined with those of others, made a better world for everyone. I taught him to be a team player. Both my boys learned to accurately access people's strengths and weaknesses and plan a team approach. My older "normal" child has made a career of this training, and wins yearly awards and bonuses because of exemplary employee performance.

[Homeschoolmom3]

Every kid is different and I think that we should leave it at that.  I have learned through the years that all children learn at different levels and at different times.  If my son is interested in learning math concepts at 3 I am going to let him...why not?  If you need to work on a grade an extra year who cares?  That is the beauty of homeschooling!!  My oldest is labeled gifted and there are different levels even inside the label "gifted" so what works for one kid might not for another.  Even though my son is labeled gifted we continuted to do Saxon in the early years because it worked skipping levels is a big no no!  Yes he got kinda bored with it and the monotony, but hey it worked!  And now that he is in higher math I can use a different curriculum and know that his previous math was solid and therefore has the foundation for any math.  And thankfully he has done really well.  Saxon is great for some and evidently not for others but it was a good foundation for us here.  And again love the simplicity of it!!! 

[kiana]

Another point I want to make is that gifted and LD people are just people. All people are people first and foremost. It does our world no good to subdivide people up. We need to learn more tolerance and acceptance of diverse members, and to find ways to include them if they will let us. And diverse people need to understand that the general population isn't always like them and need to learn to be more aware and sometimes accommodating of the realities of "normal".

 

I had to teach my child that he was gifted, because otherwise he just thought those around him were not trying hard enough. I taught him that he was different and that it wasn't better or worse just different. He had unique strengths and weaknesses that when combined with those of others, made a better world for everyone. I taught him to be a team player. Both my boys learned to accurately access people's strengths and weaknesses and plan a team approach. My older "normal" child has made a career of this training, and wins yearly awards and bonuses because of exemplary employee performance.

 

This is such an important point and so much better said than what I kept typing and deleting.

 

I have met a heck of a lot of adult unidentified gifted children (in some cases, gifted + non-compliant with school) who have gone through life fully convinced that they are average and that everyone around them just doesn't try enough. They have no idea just how above average they are.

 

This doesn't mean they're better people or anything. It just means that they need to learn to scale their expectations of what other people are capable of.

[Hunter]

This is such an important point and so much better said than what I kept typing and deleting.

 

I have met a heck of a lot of adult unidentified gifted children (in some cases, gifted + non-compliant with school) who have gone through life fully convinced that they are average and that everyone around them just doesn't try enough. They have no idea just how above average they are.

 

This doesn't mean they're better people or anything. It just means that they need to learn to scale their expectations of what other people are capable of.

:iagree:

[Ad astra]

Every kid is different and I think that we should leave it at that.  I have learned through the years that all children learn at different levels and at different times.  If my son is interested in learning math concepts at 3 I am going to let him...why not?  If you need to work on a grade an extra year who cares?  That is the beauty of homeschooling!!  My oldest is labeled gifted and there are different levels even inside the label "gifted" so what works for one kid might not for another.  Even though my son is labeled gifted we continuted to do Saxon in the early years because it worked skipping levels is a big no no!  Yes he got kinda bored with it and the monotony, but hey it worked!  And now that he is in higher math I can use a different curriculum and know that his previous math was solid and therefore has the foundation for any math.  And thankfully he has done really well.  Saxon is great for some and evidently not for others but it was a good foundation for us here.  And again love the simplicity of it!!! 

 

I totally agree with this more than anything. I grew up in East Asia and now educate my kids in America so I've seen the both sides. Here are my 2 cents;

 

1) elmerRex, I agree with you that diligent work and active parental involvement make a huge difference in a student's academic performances, and that's precisely why Asian students in general can master calculus by high school and do better in STEM majors (It's harder to overcome the language barrier in other fields.). Yes, my 4yo son is doing math, reading and handwriting at 1st grade level, but I'm not sure if he is "gifted," either. If I haven't taught him systematically and steadily since last year, he would've probably just started to pick up some cvc words and numbers over 20 on his own now. I just call him "accelerated" because I don't see such "giftness" in him to my standard. That's why I use a multiple curricula for each subject and try to avoid radical acceleration. It was possible for us to move ahead because my son doesn't mind seat work and repetition and does enjoy schooling with me. In the academically rigorous and competitive environment I grew up, I'd seen the two types of good students: gifted ones and hard workers. I was the gifted one and I believe my son is the latter although it may be too early to tell. And I also agree that the curricula and resources you use are only the "tools."

 

2) Hunter, I think most American moms on this board would agree with what you're saying and I do, too. I think there are both good and bad things on the both sides of thinking because we are all different. A parent-led approach certainly has both gains and limitations. I've seen how stressed and unhappy some Asian students are under such pressures and high expectations. And I've also seen how bored and unchallenged some American students are with no opportunities ever provided to reach their full potential. But what I am thankful for by raising and educating my kids in the U.S. is that in this country it is generally accepted everybody has a different color and it is ok to be yourself. Homeschooling was unimaginable where I came from. Here, not everyone is following the same route to success and the society wouldn't make you feel so inferior when you couldn't win the race and vise versa. And I'd say the general quality of life for the underprevileged is better in the U.S. than in most other countries where people get much less for harder work.

 

FWIW I didn't take it as the OP was trying to set her experience as an example for all of us. This is just what worked for her kid and I hope to see more "untraditional" stories like this on this forum. :)       

[Hunter]

Moon, having lived in two counties, I never saw the health care of poor children neglected like it is here in parts of the USA. There were never ANY children in my overseas schools with untreated abscesses in their mouths and earaches and things like that. I have seen lack of basic health care interfere with scholastic ability way too often, in the USA. I'm not sure what you have seen where you have been.

 

What good is free schooling if you are too sick to attend, can't see or hear the teacher, or are too distracted by pain to pay attention? And don't anyone tell me this doesn't happen, because…because…I don't know what I'll do. Probably nothing. But this DOES happen here in the USA and is one of the things that makes me SO sad and mad when I see it happening. And I think denial of it's existence and significance makes me even angrier.

 

We are better at least at providing lunch for kids, and sometimes breakfast, but any food scarcity at all, even if it's just at supper and weekends, it has a long term affect on student performance. It's wearing. It changes the attitude. it stunts imagination. One skipped meal is significant; it's scary, and it sticks with you.

 

And moms working odd shifts at low level jobs where employees are considered expendable. It's devastating to student performance.

 

And I know the other side. I cried as a child over NEEDING more advancement and took risks of bodily harm in trying to secure it. And back in the 90s when it was NOT the thing to do, I pulled my kid out of school to homeschool him just so he could accelerate. He didn't cry so much as get ANGRY and that anger was getting scary.

[Ad astra]

Hunter, I totally agree with you that the overall health care, child care, gifted education systems, and even the quality of public school meals in the U.S. have SO much room to improve. It was definitely a cultural shock to me.

[Roadrunner]

Hunter, I totally agree with you that the overall health care, child care, gifted education systems, and even the quality of public school meals in the U.S. have SO much room to improve. It was definitely a cultural shock to me.

I guess it depends on where you immigrated from. :001_smile: From my point of reference I was so pleasantly surprised that schools feed children here. For free if you fall under the certain income. In CA children from low income families get free healthcare. If only wish anything remotely generous existed in many other parts of the world. 

 

Hunter, this is a thread on its own. I am not sure what it adds to this particular Saxon discussion. 

[stripe]

Moon, having lived in two counties, I never saw the health care of poor children neglected like it is here in parts of the USA. There were never ANY children in my overseas schools with untreated abscesses in their mouths and earaches and things like that. I have seen lack of basic health care interfere with scholastic ability way too often, in the USA. I'm not sure what you have seen where you have been.

Malaria has a huge economic toll on people in many parts of the world. Not really an issue in the US.

 

I have seen neglected children elsewhere, including a homeless toddler with a 5 year old sibling walking the street begging, and entire families whose "nourishment" is watered down corn meal porridge, that I just don't think are too common in the US. I identified a 4 or 5 year old child with a mouthful of giant cavities, that no one else (in a very loving family) had noticed. There are a lot of kids with dripping noses and skin problems that I don't think are that common in the US.

 

When people have money for some basic food, I do think it tends to be better quality (greens, beans, and so forth) that is completely the other end of the spectrum from greasy fast food fare. But there are a heck of a lot of kids with vision problems from vitamin A deficiencies, and a lot of people of all ages who are anemic around the world, and probably the popularity of processed foods like enriched cereals helps with that in the US. 

 

It's really, really hard to compare different countries, though, and I am afraid I am suggesting that I am making that comparison. I think poor people in the US suffer in unique ways from poor, or even moderate income people, in other countries. They usually are utterly lacking in a dependable social net, by which I mean extended family or even a nuclear family. And I have seen "illegitimate" and orphaned children in other countries who have a more settled daily life.

[Gil]

I think its cool. I don't know what the big gripe about Saxon is either. We didn't use it for elementary school only because we found Math Mammoth first, but from what I can tell, it seems like solid math instruction. I suspect that any kid who uses Saxon properly, is highly likely to have solid skills and using Saxon doesn't exclude someone from actually understanding or gaining insight into math.

 

I work PT as a tutor with college students--1/2 of whom can't simplify fractions, add or subtract double digit numbers without a calculator or solve word problems on a 4th grade level without a bunch of ado. Its tiring, saddening and pretty ridiculous. I've seen more students fail calculus due to arithmetic and algebra than to the actual calculus. I know a few people who were in the 'pull out program' for math in elementary and middle school and are failing college math classes in droves.

 

I looked through the Saxon Math 5/4  and 6/5 books online and I have to say that I agree on the fact that Saxon Math is skills based and not getting caught up on grades so much. I let my kids go to PS briefly and they came back obsessed with grade levels as a status symbol because their school labeled everything and praised grades and grade levels. At first I encouraged it but now I'm slowly working to correct it. I think that placing the focus on skill levels is better---much, much better. I need to keep that dialogue going with my boys.

 

What I have learned from having advanced my kids academically by teaching them as you are doing is that if it is working, use it and don't let people talk you out of it, ElmerRex. Glad to see someone else with kids similarly advanced as my own, feel free to drop me a line (might take a while for me to get back to you) if you have any questions, comments, concerns, complaints.

 

Good luck with Saxon and with educating your kids.

[Roadrunner]

 

I looked through the Saxon Math 5/4  and 6/5 books online and I have to say that I agree on the fact that Saxon Math is skills based and not getting caught up on grades so much. I let my kids go to PS briefly and they came back obsessed with grade levels as a status symbol because their school labeled everything and praised grades and grade levels. At first I encouraged it but now I'm slowly working to correct it. I think that placing the focus on skill levels is better---much, much better. I need to keep that dialogue going with my boys.

 

Can you elaborate on this? How is this unique to Saxon? Every math is skills based. You place your kid where he/she belongs. Or are you trying to say that every single Saxon textbook cumulatively reviews everything that has been taught since grade 1? I hope it's not the latter. 

[Gil]

ETA: I wrote out a long and wordy reply when I was extremely tired and I posted it. Then I did something stupid and deleted about 95% of it. It was 2:25 in the AM though so...yeah. I'll try and revisit this again when I'm not as frustrated with my lost-post. I didn't mean to sound like a jerk.

 

I was really just making conversation and chiming in to introduce myself to ElmerRex because, I don't know many other people who have intentionally advanced their young kids education the way that I did--no gifted testing or anything like that, I didn't even wait for signs of 'giftedness' in my kids. I just took my 'normal' kids and developed a way to systematically funnel knowledge and skills down to them at their level slowly but steadily.

Can you elaborate on this? Uhm not really...I think my comment was kind of straight-forward so what, specifically, were you confused about? I guess I should have said that I agree on the idea that Saxon Math is skill-based and not to get caught up on the grade levels...

 

[Roadrunner]

Roadrunner, on 27 Jul 2014 - 8:55 PM, said:

Can you elaborate on this? Uhm not really...I think my comment was kind of straight-forward so what, specifically, were you confused about? I guess I should have said that I agree on the idea that Saxon Math is skill-based and not to get caught up on the grade levels...

You said Saxon Math is skill-based as opposed to what? What other type of math exists? Which math isn't skill-based? You can get caught up on the grade levels in Saxon, or SM, or AoPS. Or you can use any of those programs without getting caught up on the grade levels. I fail to understand how Saxon is different and I don't mean mastery versus spiral approach. Just curious. 

[wapiti]

Thanks Kinsa - it would make sense to construe "skill-based" as algorithm-focused in the context of Saxon.  (I understood OP to mean that the levels were based on skills rather than grade levels, though personally I think it's a bit of a distinction without a difference.)

 

FWIW, Gil, the learning philosophy behind Saxon involves gaining understanding through repetition.  That differs from the learning philosophy behind, say, MM, with which you are more familiar.

[boscopup]

Thanks Kinsa - it would make sense to construe "skill-based" as algorithm-focused in the context of Saxon. (I understood OP to mean that the levels were based on skills rather than grade levels, though personally I think it's a bit of a distinction without a difference.)

 

Look at the full texts available online at private schools. In 5/4, for example, it teaches subtraction with regrouping the same way Liping Ma suggests in her book - same terminology and everything! I don't see how that is "algorithm based". (It's somewhere around lesson 31 or so, iirc)

 

I was also impressed with mental math in the warmups, particularly in Intermediate 4 (which is almost word-for-word the same as 5/4, but it adds some extra examples and very occasionally rewords something to make it more clear).

 

My oldest didn't like Saxon in school, as it was too much repetition for him. That was the Nancy Larson versions though. The first grade worksheets coming home drove ME nuts, as it was the exact same problems every single day. 5/4 and up look a lot more tolerable, and I'm leaning toward using it with my younger kids after CLE 300. When we get to Prealgebra or Algebra, we'd likely switch to a regular textbook program (AoPS, Jacobs, Foerster, etc.). My 5th grader uses AoPS to slow him down. He could fly through Saxon or go deeper with another program and push calculus out to a reasonable time (since he does not plan to be a mathematician). 4 years of math are required in high school, and I don't want him hitting calculus in 9th and then having to go find higher classes that he normally wouldn't need for his major. He likes math, but he's not ridiculously passionate about math. He loves AoPS though. AoPS books are also cheaper than Saxon and are self-teaching with full solutions and explanations, so they're cheaper and easier for Mom. :) Obviously, not all kids fit with AoPS. It's a very unique program. But if your child is flying through Saxon or another regular program, it might be worthwhile to take a look at it at some point, particularly for Prealgebra and up. AoPS requires a lot more thinking than Saxon, which the average student doesn't necessarily need, but a student doing 5/4 at age 6 is not an average student, regardless of the number of years of instruction he has had. You can't teach a child beyond their developmental level. They can memorize facts easily, but applying knowledge to learn things like regrouping and such takes some level of developmental readiness. So yes, I'd suspect the OP's child is gifted. The OP is probably gifted herself and has gifted friends, so she may not realize what average really looks like. Nothing wrong with using 5/4 with a 6 year old who is ready for it and who wants to do it. :) I definitely wouldn't suggest that any average kid could do that just by being taught early. That's insulting to those kids who work very hard and still struggle to do the work at the normal age. I have two children that taught themselves to read early and are quite advanced in that area. I don't expect all kids to be able to do that though. I got to experience an "average reader" (maybe even below average) with one child, and early reading instruction didn't help. He wasn't developmentally ready to read until later. I worked more with him than his brothers, but you can't get past a developmental wall by just pushing and pushing. Sometimes, time is necessary.

 

I do look forward to reading the OP's updates when the honeymoon period is over. :)

[lewelma]

There is a difference between accelerated and gifted, which is perhaps what the OP was referring to.  You can accelerate a student with Saxon because students are expected to do about twice as many problems as standard, every day. Plus, all the review really helps to reinforce. So you can get ahead in math through sheer effort rather than mathematical brilliance.

 

But for the truly gifted student, Saxon is just not going to cut it. I'm sorry.  I know I'm going to upset some folks here. But in my experience it is the truth.  For my older boy, any kind of math drill was equivalent to proof reading a dictionary.  Even if he had good intentions, he. just. could. not. do. it.  He never did drill or repetition. Ever. To put it in perspective, his current algebra 2/pre calc math class will take about 360 hours, and he will only answer 240 problems TOTAL.  As in total for the entire class.  There is just no drill.

 

Math contains 2 clearly differentiated elements - the algorithmic material (here is how you do it, now go do 10), and the problem solving.  Saxon very definitely focuses on the first.  My understanding is that Saxon wanted the basics completely automated so as to elevate the mind for the more advanced stuff which comes in the last few books.  This is both good and bad.  The drill is good and effective, but for a gifted kid not only can it be a joy killer but it also teaches them that 1) math is easy , and 2) I don't have to try hard to succeed.  It also causes young gifted kids to accelerate quite quickly which results in them learning deep, complex problem solving with more advanced math, rather than learning it with the simpler math.  The result which we have seen in the AoPS classes is that there are some very young and gifted students that simply cannot do the work without help.  Once you give them a hint, they can do the problem; but the hint is the problem solving, the insight that is so very hard to develop. All they can do is the algorithmic work. Tell them what to do and they can tweak it a bit to do a problem.  Ask them to have original insight into a tricky problem, and they are up a creek without a paddle.  They simply have never practised that type of thinking.  Personally, I would rather my gifted student learn problem solving with elementary math, rather than Pre Calculus.  And I think that this is why some of us with gifted math students encourage parents with very advanced students to look into more difficult programs, like AoPS.

 

Ruth in NZ

[wallingjan]

For some reason, I've been mulling over this post. I'm going to be honest and put out there that the original comment, while meant to be encouraging, made me feel bad about myself. This is totally my fault and an example of why we should not compare our kids. My 1st grader is doing Saxon 2 and my K is in Saxon 1. I initially got the feeling that my fabulous, but not gifted, kids could have been doing better if I worked harder. This made my gut reaction a little unpleasant. That doesn't mean that getting them even farther ahead is possible or desirable for my family. Finding peace with our goals and individual learning styles is a process.

[Mike in SA]

There is a difference between accelerated and gifted, which is perhaps what the OP was referring to.  You can accelerate a student with Saxon because students are expected to do about twice as many problems as standard, every day. Plus, all the review really helps to reinforce. So you can get ahead in math through sheer effort rather than mathematical brilliance.

 

But for the truly gifted student, Saxon is just not going to cut it. I'm sorry.  I know I'm going to upset some folks here. But in my experience it is the truth.  For my older boy, any kind of math drill was equivalent to proof reading a dictionary.  Even if he had good intentions, he. just. could. not. do. it.  He never did drill or repetition. Ever. To put it in perspective, his current algebra 2/pre calc math class will take about 360 hours, and he will only answer 240 problems TOTAL.  As in total for the entire class.  There is just no drill.

 

Math contains 2 clearly differentiated elements - the algorithmic material (here is how you do it, now go do 10), and the problem solving.  Saxon very definitely focuses on the first.  My understanding is that Saxon wanted the basics completely automated so as to elevate the mind for the more advanced stuff which comes in the last few books.  This is both good and bad.  The drill is good and effective, but for a gifted kid not only can it be a joy killer but it also teaches them that 1) math is easy , and 2) I don't have to try hard to succeed.  It also causes young gifted kids to accelerate quite quickly which results in them learning deep, complex problem solving with more advanced math, rather than learning it with the simpler math.  The result which we have seen in the AoPS classes is that there are some very young and gifted students that simply cannot do the work without help.  Once you give them a hint, they can do the problem; but the hint is the problem solving, the insight that is so very hard to develop. All they can do is the algorithmic work. Tell them what to do and they can tweak it a bit to do a problem.  Ask them to have original insight into a tricky problem, and they are up a creek without a paddle.  They simply have never practised that type of thinking.  Personally, I would rather my gifted student learn problem solving with elementary math, rather than Pre Calculus.  And I think that this is why some of us with gifted math students encourage parents with very advanced students to look into more difficult programs, like AoPS.

 

Ruth in NZ

:iagree: This, 1000x over. 

 

I don't dislike Saxon as an overall curriculum, but for kids that can take depth rapidly, it's just the wrong fit.  Depth is best added from the beginning.  You can't just magically go backwards and add the depth 10 years into their school program and achieve the same results.

 

[Hunter]

For some reason, I've been mulling over this post. I'm going to be honest and put out there that the original comment, while meant to be encouraging, made me feel bad about myself. This is totally my fault and an example of why we should not compare our kids. My 1st grader is doing Saxon 2 and my K is in Saxon 1. I initially got the feeling that my fabulous, but not gifted, kids could have been doing better if I worked harder. This made my gut reaction a little unpleasant. That doesn't mean that getting them even farther ahead is possible or desirable for my family. Finding peace with our goals and individual learning styles is a process.

The most important thing is that our students and ourselves are mentally and physically healthy, and that our children are developing good character and habits. Academics is secondary.

 

My son did not reap any benefits from his extreme math acceleration. Math is like yeast; you only need enough to leaven the rest of their curriculum. And without character and basic social skills that are best developed while working some sort of low level or dirty job, no amount of academics will do anything good for them.

[stripe]

Math is like yeast; you only need enough to leaven the rest of their curriculum.

Hmm. I am not sure what to make of this. I can understand where you are coming from BUT I don't think character-building means there should only be a small amount of academics, and there are people whose work is in the sciences or math who deal with it in huge amounts every day, even while having good manners and social skills, but I don't know how to translate this to lower grade preparation.

[Heathermomster]

There is a difference between accelerated and gifted, which is perhaps what the OP was referring to.  You can accelerate a student with Saxon because students are expected to do about twice as many problems as standard, every day. Plus, all the review really helps to reinforce. So you can get ahead in math through sheer effort rather than mathematical brilliance.

 

But for the truly gifted student, Saxon is just not going to cut it. I'm sorry.  I know I'm going to upset some folks here. But in my experience it is the truth.  For my older boy, any kind of math drill was equivalent to proof reading a dictionary.  Even if he had good intentions, he. just. could. not. do. it.  He never did drill or repetition. Ever. To put it in perspective, his current algebra 2/pre calc math class will take about 360 hours, and he will only answer 240 problems TOTAL.  As in total for the entire class.  There is just no drill.

 

Math contains 2 clearly differentiated elements - the algorithmic material (here is how you do it, now go do 10), and the problem solving.  Saxon very definitely focuses on the first.  My understanding is that Saxon wanted the basics completely automated so as to elevate the mind for the more advanced stuff which comes in the last few books.  This is both good and bad.  The drill is good and effective, but for a gifted kid not only can it be a joy killer but it also teaches them that 1) math is easy , and 2) I don't have to try hard to succeed.  It also causes young gifted kids to accelerate quite quickly which results in them learning deep, complex problem solving with more advanced math, rather than learning it with the simpler math.  The result which we have seen in the AoPS classes is that there are some very young and gifted students that simply cannot do the work without help.  Once you give them a hint, they can do the problem; but the hint is the problem solving, the insight that is so very hard to develop. All they can do is the algorithmic work. Tell them what to do and they can tweak it a bit to do a problem.  Ask them to have original insight into a tricky problem, and they are up a creek without a paddle.  They simply have never practised that type of thinking.  Personally, I would rather my gifted student learn problem solving with elementary math, rather than Pre Calculus.  And I think that this is why some of us with gifted math students encourage parents with very advanced students to look into more difficult programs, like AoPS.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

I love this.   I've always understood that arithmetic requires low level thinking.  Geometry, set theory, and probability require higher order thinking (fluid reasoning) to solve mathematical problems.   In the early grades (k-3), we found Saxon's emphasis on drill with little to no conceptual understanding harmful to my 2e DS.  

 

Many students have done great all the way through Saxon though.  Clearly, Saxon doesn't suit every student.

[Roadrunner]

There is a difference between accelerated and gifted, which is perhaps what the OP was referring to.  You can accelerate a student with Saxon because students are expected to do about twice as many problems as standard, every day. Plus, all the review really helps to reinforce. So you can get ahead in math through sheer effort rather than mathematical brilliance.

 

But for the truly gifted student, Saxon is just not going to cut it. I'm sorry.  I know I'm going to upset some folks here. But in my experience it is the truth.  For my older boy, any kind of math drill was equivalent to proof reading a dictionary.  Even if he had good intentions, he. just. could. not. do. it.  He never did drill or repetition. Ever. To put it in perspective, his current algebra 2/pre calc math class will take about 360 hours, and he will only answer 240 problems TOTAL.  As in total for the entire class.  There is just no drill.

 

Math contains 2 clearly differentiated elements - the algorithmic material (here is how you do it, now go do 10), and the problem solving.  Saxon very definitely focuses on the first.  My understanding is that Saxon wanted the basics completely automated so as to elevate the mind for the more advanced stuff which comes in the last few books.  This is both good and bad.  The drill is good and effective, but for a gifted kid not only can it be a joy killer but it also teaches them that 1) math is easy , and 2) I don't have to try hard to succeed.  It also causes young gifted kids to accelerate quite quickly which results in them learning deep, complex problem solving with more advanced math, rather than learning it with the simpler math.  The result which we have seen in the AoPS classes is that there are some very young and gifted students that simply cannot do the work without help.  Once you give them a hint, they can do the problem; but the hint is the problem solving, the insight that is so very hard to develop. All they can do is the algorithmic work. Tell them what to do and they can tweak it a bit to do a problem.  Ask them to have original insight into a tricky problem, and they are up a creek without a paddle.  They simply have never practised that type of thinking.  Personally, I would rather my gifted student learn problem solving with elementary math, rather than Pre Calculus.  And I think that this is why some of us with gifted math students encourage parents with very advanced students to look into more difficult programs, like AoPS.

 

Ruth in NZ

Liking your post just wasn't enough!

 

I have no idea if my kid is gifted in math or just accelerated, but for my older boy, math drills are also unnecessary torture. I have seen his mind develop in beautiful ways from resources that focus on deep thinking, while drill programs (for us SM has turned into one, even IP supplements) have not added to his development. He simply doesn't need repetition. Saxon would be the end of his math love affair.