EMG vs Chiropractor

[creekland]

I need some thoughts as google isn't giving me what I'm looking for.

 

Due to some neuro - probable spine - issues (failed a couple of tests I should have studied more for!) I have a couple of MRIs (today) and then an NCS/EMG planned for late August (the delay due to travel taking kids to college).

 

BUT, last night, I was talking with my mom on the phone.  She's been seeing a chiropractor for back issues (not the same) and has been helped a LOT.  She's thrilled with her experience.  She got discussing my (specific) issues with him... and he told her the Dr should be able to tell all they need to know from the MRIs and that NCS/EMGs are merely painful, expensive, revenue gains for neurology offices - totally unnecessary.

 

My brain has been thinking about that all night... who wouldn't?  EMGs aren't exactly anyone's cup of tea from what I've heard IRL from those who have had them done.

 

Do you suppose it's worth it to send copies of the MRIs to mom's chiropractor for his opinion before enduring the EMG? (He's 8 1/2 hours away from me, but it's my mom, so I could "vacation" to see him.)

 

I have a month to decide as the travel plans aren't changing and the MRIs are today.  It almost seems like a no-brainer to do, but I can't find anything similar via google to base (confirm?) my thoughts off of - and the Hive has ALWAYS been a gem of a source of info with our varied experiences...

 

FWIW, cost is not an issue, but this test seems downright "yucky," so if it isn't necessary, skipping it would be my preference.

[Ellie]

I don't know what an NCS/EMG is (I guess I should have studied more, too! :laugh: ) but I think that it couldn't hurt to go to a good chiropractor. He would know whether he could help you or not.

 

Going to a chiropractor for a serious issue is not a one-time event. It could take many months of treatment, but many months of treatment instead of surgery seems to me like an excellent trade-off. :-)

[bettyandbob]

I think a chiropractor is worth a visit.

 

I don't know what your injury is, but many problems can be treated by the chiropractor. I prefer the noninvasive approach.

[Momof3littles]

Have you explored physical therapy? 

[creekland]

We're still in the diagnosis stage only having determined that "something" is definitely wrong, but that's it.

 

The MD has requested both the MRIs and the NCS/EMG.

 

The Chiro has stated that only the MRIs should be sufficient for a diagnosis.

 

I saw the MD, and failed the tests there.  The chiro has only heard the symptoms (and failed tests) from my mom.

 

However, the NCS/EMG is being done at the MD's office - kind of making one wonder about the financial aspect of it mentioned by the Chiro.  Is it ordered for financial reasons or not?  Finances don't matter for us (our health share coves it at 100%), but the test is a nasty one I'd prefer to avoid if the Chiro is correct and it's not really needed.

 

Since there's a month in between, the temptation is to send the MRIs (copies) to the Chiro to see what his opinion is for the diagnosis, etc. and contemplate scratching the NCS/EMG if he feels it still isn't warranted...

 

This presumes, of course, that he's willing to look at them.  My mom thinks he would be (paid, of course), but I don't know how certain she is.  She goes back to see him tomorrow morning.

[Karen A]

Why did the neuro order both to be done?  I have no idea what your symptoms are, but the tests are probably being done to rule in/out different diagnoses.  A genetic neuromuscular disease runs in our family and some have gotten EMGs for diagnosis, and others not (they just presume they have it, based on symptoms and knowing it's in the family).  Everyone does the same physical therapy stuff, or is supposed to, whether they are presumed or diagnosed.

 

I would not want an EMG either (ouch!).  But I wouldn't NOT get one if it would help guide treatment options.  Re the chiropractor--another opinion usually doesn't hurt.  And maybe the MRI will be definitive for you, and it will be unnecessary!

 

Best wishes.

 

 

[Soror]

Hugs! I'm not sure of the details of your situation but I hope that you will have peace with whatever decision you make.

[Momof3littles]

Yes, EMG and NCV can aid in diagnosis, so I would probably have them as a helpful piece to the puzzle. 

[creekland]

Why did the neuro order both to be done? 

 

It would be nice if they shared secrets, wouldn't it?

 

All I was told is the MRI assists with anatomy and the EMG assists with physiology for the diagnosis.  Other than some google thoughts/ideas (not exactly trustworthy, but kind of interesting to contemplate, so I do look) I'm not really sure what they are thinking or trying to rule in/out.  Other than first aid and basic vet stuff, my medical knowledge runs out shortly after "the leg bone's connected to the thigh bone..."

 

It never occurred to me to question any of it - until I heard from my mom what her chiropractor said last night regarding the test mainly being useful financially for the offices as the data from the MRI is generally sufficient.

 

It may be his opinion.  It may be a common opinion.  Google was not helpful with that search.  I'm hoping the Hive has some experience they'd be willing to share either on this thread or privately.

[Greta]

I think you should probably talk to your doctor and find out more about why he ordered the tests, exactly what he hopes to learn from them, and what courses of treatment will be decided upon based on the results. Then you'll be in a better position to decide for yourself if you want to go through with it. I'm extremely skeptical of a chiropractor telling you what medical tests you don't need, since a chiropractor is not an MD or a neurologist. The chiropractor seems to be advising you outside of his area of training and expertise, and that's a red flag to me.

[creekland]

I'm extremely skeptical of a chiropractor telling you what medical tests you don't need, since a chiropractor is not an MD or a neurologist. The chiropractor seems to be advising you outside of his area of training and expertise, and that's a red flag to me.

 

Just for the record, the Chiro isn't advising me (as of yet). We haven't even met and I don't know him.  My mom is going to him for an unrelated condition (not even genetically related) and she's pleased.  She lives in a small town.  People talk story. It's what small towns do.  ;)  She was talking with him about my issues and he was giving her his opinion of the usefulness of that test even after knowing what the issues are.

 

Mom related that to me last night - just continuing to talk story.

 

My brain dismissed it at first, but then got wondering about it.

 

If it's true and the test is not needed, my preference is to skip it, but I don't really have enough info to feel I can make that decision and google wasn't much help.

 

Both the Chiro and my Dr have their preferences (obviously).  I'm looking for ideas/thoughts/whatever from "non-connected" people.

 

And... I need to leave in about 5 minutes, so shall check in later.

 

MRIs, at least, are easy - and these aren't even contrast deals, so easier yet!

 

[Momof3littles]

It would be nice if they shared secrets, wouldn't it?

 

All I was told is the MRI assists with anatomy and the EMG assists with physiology for the diagnosis.  Other than some google thoughts/ideas (not exactly trustworthy, but kind of interesting to contemplate, so I do look) I'm not really sure what they are thinking or trying to rule in/out.  Other than first aid and basic vet stuff, my medical knowledge runs out shortly after "the leg bone's connected to the thigh bone..."

 

It never occurred to me to question any of it - until I heard from my mom what her chiropractor said last night regarding the test mainly being useful financially for the offices as the data from the MRI is generally sufficient.

 

It may be his opinion.  It may be a common opinion.  Google was not helpful with that search.  I'm hoping the Hive has some experience they'd be willing to share either on this thread or privately.

 

I would be skeptical of the advice from the chiro.  He doesn't know your history or diagnosis in any medical detail, unless your mother shared very in depth info and speaks medical lingo, kwim? He's never evaluated you. 

 

MRI can give clues, but so can NCV and EMG.  MRI is useful but also sometimes "overdiagnoses" in that things like spurs, etc. can show up and symptoms end up attributed to that, even though they may be typical, age expected, and not 100% related, for example.  So they are a tool, but not the be all end all in every situation, just like any imaging or testing.  All tests have their pros and cons as you know.  Tests do provide clues in the diagnostics though, and that can be helpful and useful to those treating you.  I don't think of NCV and EMG as moneymakers.  I mean, there are chiros who sell products in office that make me raise an eyebrow (and fwiw, I have seen a chiro, worked as a physical therapist before turning SAHM but this was not my area of practice, I use an integrative medicine pediatrician for my kids, have used things like homeopathy, etc., so I am not anti alternative medicine, iykwim).  There are chiros who do xrays and come up with findings that make me raise an eyebrow and give a side eye.  All of that to say that the chiro, I assume not totally familiar with the *medical* aspects of your case, chalking up the emg and ncv to "money makers" is more than a little questionable IMO.

 

Not sure if you've seen these but maybe they'll answer some of your questions.  Better yet, ask the neurologist's office why they recommended the tests and what they are hoping to rule in/out that they can't seen on MRI (because there are differences and will yield some different info possibly), rather than relying on this chiro's opinion.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003927.htm

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlibrary/test_procedures/neurological/nerve_conduction_velocity_ncv_92,P07657/

[heartosunshine]

Perhaps my recent experience can help you. I've had sciatica off & on for 18 years, tried everything but it progressed and I finally had surgery this last February. Before surgery, severe pain going down my left leg, left foot throbbing and left leg weakness from a compressed nerve as seen on MRI. (Turns out I had two separate issues causing pain as you'll see.)

 

Six weeks after surgery, pain down the leg & in the foot is GONE, but I still had significant pain in my left buttock (as I did before surgery). Doc did manipulations with my leg & referred me to orthopedic doc for my hip.

 

Fast forward a couple months (after xray, physical therapy, etc), still not getting relief, the orthopedic doctor wanted to be sure that we were dealing with a hip issue & not a damaged nerve issue from my back. Got the EMG/NCS and that ruled out nerve damage. (Yay! This is really good news!)

 

Then had MRI of hip, found some scar tissue in muscles and some arthritis in hip, had injection, and am now working out the rest in physical therapy. I'm feeling much better!

 

Final analysis: I am so glad I had the EMG. Yes, it's not fun but not as bad as I thought it would be either. It's worth it for me to have the information in order to better treat the current problem. It should also be noted that, in those 18 years, I saw a chiropractor for quite a while, pain management docs and physical therapists. I had the pain for a long, long time and really tried everything else first.

[Greta]

If it's true and the test is not needed, my preference is to skip it, but I don't really have enough info to feel I can make that decision and google wasn't much help.

 

Both the Chiro and my Dr have their preferences (obviously). I'm looking for ideas/thoughts/whatever from "non-connected" people.

 

I understand. These decisions are never easy. And I wish I could offer you more information and help, but I have none to offer. (I was just a bit worried about the idea of letting a chiropractor dictate your medical decisions, when he's not really qualified to do so. But clearly that's not what you were doing, you're just looking for more info!). I hope that you're able to get the information you need to feel confident about your decision.

[creekland]

Interesting thoughts and experiences (and yes, I'd seen similar links when I looked things up).

 

My mom's "stuff" was due to a fall she had, so it is in a different category and in that category, perhaps the chiro is correct.  Mine's been progressing for a year or so and might include things I didn't realize were included based on some of the "failed" tests that I never would have guessed I'd fail if you'd asked me ahead of time.

 

It's probably best to keep things as they are and see what happens.

 

Meanwhile, I need google to find a site entitled "Basic Spine MRI Reading for Beginners."  I'm off to look for it.  I won't actually get "real" answers for a little over a month due to our college travels - and my birthday (didn't care for the EMG on or right before my birthday - NOT my idea of a present for myself!).  So... I've a whole month + a little more to see what I can figure out... then see how close I got.

[Jean in Newcastle]

When I had my EMG, the neuro told me that because it didn't show any specific "break in the line" (ie the nerve impulse got through) that my symptoms of weakness, zapping pain etc. could be from a pinched nerve.  That wouldn't show up on an EMG necessarily.  He told me to go see a chiropractor.  I had been seeing one and it did help me a lot but I have chronic problems because my muscles keep contracting and then pulling on the spine which then pinches something. . . the classic vicious circle.  We were just making sure there wasn't something else.

[creekland]

Hugs! I'm not sure of the details of your situation but I hope that you will have peace with whatever decision you make.

 

Thanks.  I try not to think about the details much and will continue to do so for the next month or so.  In my ideal world my body should have been fixing itself rather than progressively getting worse - homeostasis and all that - a "basic" that we teach in Bio.  :glare:

 

On the plus side, at least now I know I'm not just imagining things or over-reacting to stress.  There's some relief in that as I was wondering about my sanity (and I'm not using that loosely).

 

It's still not a fun thing to look forward to, so I'll work on forgetting about it - except I'm a bit driven to decipher the MRIs (or try to).  Forgetting can be a little tough with some of the symptoms, but such is life.  I did have the opportunity to get it checked into sooner, so no one is at fault for anything except myself.

 

[creekland]

 

 

"Spine MRI Reading for Beginners."

 

Aha!  THAT google search works as it should!

[creekland]

GRR!  I give myself a very basic education regarding the specifics that I'm interested in, then pop the disc in... and this one doesn't come with an automatic reader...  :glare:  I will have to figure out what to download for it - more specifically - hubby will have to figure out what to download for it as he's my tech guru... and he's busy right now with his "income earning" job... so curious minds will have to wait until tomorrow I suppose.

 

The other two MRI discs I have for that "other" issue I've been dealing with (the brain tumor) both were automatic.  Silly me expecting this one would be the same.

[Starr]

Go to the medical records dept of thee hospital where you had the MRI and sign for your records. They will give you a copy of the report.

[jmama]

I've had several EMGs.  They aren't nearly as bad as they sound.  And it is a quick test.  There are certain things(spinal stenosis in my case) that a chiropractor just can not help with.  Believe me, I tried.  I would get the EMG so your dr. has the info they need.  If everything is ok, then your doc. might give you the go ahead for the chiro.  Good luck!

[creekland]

Go to the medical records dept of thee hospital where you had the MRI and sign for your records. They will give you a copy of the report.

 

I did these at an independent radiology place and it's an hour away from home.  I've no idea who's actually reading the MRI officially.  If we weren't leaving soon, I'd call and find out.

 

Hubby downloaded a viewer for me last night.  Today I'll get to play around with it.  That'll keep me busy.

 

My back rarely actually hurts, so I'm not 100% convinced I'll see anything.  It may be like everything else so far and come back normal (part of why I was starting to wonder if it was all just "me.")  BUT, there has to be some (real) reason for the failed tests, no?  One was a reflex test - the brain can't purposely "fail" those, can it?

 

I've had several EMGs.  They aren't nearly as bad as they sound.  And it is a quick test.  There are certain things(spinal stenosis in my case) that a chiropractor just can not help with.  Believe me, I tried.  I would get the EMG so your dr. has the info they need.  If everything is ok, then your doc. might give you the go ahead for the chiro.  Good luck!

 

You're the first person I've talked with (or online in this case - rest were IRL) who has said they aren't that bad... so there's hope?  I'm going to guess that compared to giving birth to three sons they can't be too bad... it's a guess, but it's a guess I'm going with!  In any event, it's a month away, so I'll get concerned about it when it gets a lot closer - no reason to do so before then.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Creek - it was a fairly quick zap - so pain for a very short time in my case.  The fact that I felt pain was a sign that everything was ok!  I have over active nerves though so I may feel pain a bit more intensely than the average bear, or so the doctors tell me.  I don't have anything to compare it to though so I couldn't tell you that for sure.  

[heartosunshine]

You're the first person I've talked with (or online in this case - rest were IRL) who has said they aren't that bad... so there's hope?  I'm going to guess that compared to giving birth to three sons they can't be too bad... it's a guess, but it's a guess I'm going with!  In any event, it's a month away, so I'll get concerned about it when it gets a lot closer - no reason to do so before then.

 

I think people get wigged out because of the electrical stimulation. It feels weird but I didn't think it was bad. There was some quick pokes, a few annoying zaps that made my legs twitch, and only one kind of painful stab resulting in a bruise and muscle knot in my thigh. The last one was less painful than the hip injection I had a few weeks prior and WAY less painful than giving birth! :)

 

My doctor asked if I wanted a med to take prior (to relax) but I wanted to be able to drive myself. Maybe that's an option for you?

 

[creekland]

I think people get wigged out because of the electrical stimulation. It feels weird but I didn't think it was bad. There was some quick pokes, a few annoying zaps that made my legs twitch, and only one kind of painful stab resulting in a bruise and muscle knot in my thigh. The last one was less painful than the hip injection I had a few weeks prior and WAY less painful than giving birth! :)

 

My doctor asked if I wanted a med to take prior (to relax) but I wanted to be able to drive myself. Maybe that's an option for you?

 

 

We have some electric wire around a couple of our pastures and at least once or twice a year I can get careless with it.  I suppose it can't feel too much different.

 

But in all honesty, since I am now more or less convinced the tests are a good idea, they won't be a problem.  I grew up on a farm, have ridden (and fallen off) horses/ponies since I've been 8, successfully completed field training for the AF and more since I chose a Corps of Cadets college, donate blood regularly (or used to anyway), have given birth three times, have a root canal, still live on a farm, etc, etc, etc.

 

It won't be a problem.  I just needed to be sure there were genuine reasons rather than being a glutton for punishment "just because" someone wanted to augment their bottom line.  I don't think that's the case here.

 

Oh, and the disc does have an auto-player... it's just that my computer is new(ish) and hadn't had JAVA put on it yet.  Hubby fixed that.  He's incredibly good at fixing anything from fences to appliances to computers and more.  Even if we didn't get along well (we do!), there'd be no way I could ever leave that man!!! ;)

 

It's too bad he can't fix "bodies" (internally - he's great at assisting with vet or first aid stuff - one has to be on a farm!).