Gave dd the Barton screening & need curriculum recommendations

[WaterLily]

So I gave my daughter (10 yo) the Barton screening and she did fine on A and B (needed just a little help with the one syllable word), but *barely* passed C. There were a couple that she got correct after repeat and then she got two wrong....

 

/ch/ /j/ /sh/

/s/ /sh/ /s/

 

And I'll admit that I gave the screening to her twice on two different days and she missed those two both times. The number "correct after repeat" varied slightly but no more than 3. Also, the second time I noticed that she repeated /e/ as /a/ two different times. I didn't mark those wrong b/c I don't think she did that the first time but I'm sure she does have some trouble differentiating  between the vowel sounds sometimes. I gave details in a post on the special needs board but basically, she has a reading disability/dyslexia as well as memory and auditory processing issues. She also has mild conductive hearing loss but we were told that it's most likely the other issues that are causing her learning problems.

 

Anyway, I'm a little concerned that she barely passed the screening. Would we be OK to start Barton? I looked into LiPS a little bit but don't know if that would be necessary or not (plus, from what I can tell, it seems really expensive?!).  

 

Also, I've done some reading and research on dyslexia, auditory processing, etc, but am a little overwhelmed.  I'm almost positive that we're going to try homeschooling again this year (after 2 years in a Montessori school) but I feel very unprepared to start in August like I want to.  Could you all give me some curriculum recommendations?  I need some place to start. I used Rod & Staff and/or Christian Light math with my boys but I'm not sure those would work for her? So I'm looking for suggestions for math, of course reading/spelling etc, and any other subject! :) Thank you!

[LaughingCat]

FWIW my DD was right on the edge of passing/not passing and I waffled about LIPS for several years (while doing other things) and when I finally bit the bullet, it turned out to be so worth it!  Especially with your DD having auditory processing issues I think it would be worth it.

 

IMO you can do LIPS yourself just with the manual (and the DVD's that come with it) + whatever is the cheapest choice for lip/letter cards/tiles (I made my own) to make the cost more reasonable. 

[OneStepAtATime]

I really recommend you start with LiPS.  See if you can find a used manual with DVD's.  Buy/make your own support material if you can.  Like LaughingCat says, it will save on cost.  Without the extra work with LiPS, Barton might still work.  But it will be a lot harder.  And possibly a lot more frustrating.

 

If you do go ahead and use Barton, that will make curriculum choices a bit easier since it is supposed to replace all grammar and spelling for the 1st 3-4 levels.  All reading is supposed to be either audio books or parent reading to the child or reading the readers recommended by Barton until at least Level 4 to break bad habits many dyslexic readers develop.  Be prepared to read a lot of the material TO your child in the content areas.  Again, the goal is break bad survival habits and build up more effective ways to decode, as well as improve fluency.  Unlearning can take a bit of time and doing a lot of outside independent reading in the early levels can slow that process down.

[WaterLily]

Thank you both! I will look for a used LiPS manual but am still considering going straight to Barton. If I can find the LiPS manual at a good price it would be worth looking at though. I do like that Barton covers all the language arts that we'd need. :)

 

Can anyone compare Barton and High Noon? I just read about High Noon and it looks interesting. I'm so new to all these programs and it's overwhelming! I've been reading some info in other posts but thought I'd ask here too in case anyone has thoughts specific to our situation. I went ahead and did the High Noon assessment and she can read the first couple of passages with small errors. (I had her read the 3rd and 4th passages and she was able but was less fluent.) After reading the first passage she had no idea what it was about. I told her I was going to let her read it again and then ask again. After that she was able to tell me about the first couple of passages but most of what she recalls is specific words and phrases more than being able to understand and summarize...if that makes sense.

 

Anyway, I've been assuming that we should do Barton (and maybe LiPS) but should we consider High Noon or even something else?

[OneStepAtATime]

Hard to say.  I have not used High Noon so I cannot effectively compare the two.  My mother used some of the High Noon readers when she was a Reading Specialist in ps and liked them quite a bit but that doesn't tell you anything about the program itself for teaching reading.  However, there are members on this board who HAVE used High Noon, and quite successfully.  Hopefully they will chime in.  

 

Until you try both there is no way to know for certain what will work better for your child, though.  Some kids will respond better with one and some with the other, I suspect.  I don't know of anyone, unfortunately, that has made it through multiple levels of Barton AND multiple levels of High Noon, so I don't know that anyone here can give you an effective, point by point in-depth comparison.

 

FWIW, I have looked into switching DS to High Noon.  I won't with DD.  She is doing well, incredibly well, with Barton.  DS is doing well but trips in odd ways.  He is actually faster at internalizing the rules than DD.  It is on application that he glitches and it seems to be primarily sound based.   He did great with Level 1 and a lot of Level 2, though and it definitely helped him.    Level 3 tripped him up, not the rules, but application.  And the glitches are not because he doesn't understand.  This is something else.  He did go through part of LiPS and it DEFINITELY helped, but Mom was the one tutoring and her time was erratic.  I don't think she went far enough or did enough review for him to have gotten all the benefits he could have.  He absolutely doesn't want to go back and do it again, though.  He is competitive with his sister.  He wants to keep moving forward.  Therefore, I think switching to another program might be a good idea.  It could take some of the competitive pressure off, plus some of the others that have used High Noon had kids that struggled with sound distinctions.   High Noon seemed to work for them.

 

I will be honest, I love Barton.  I find it a really solid program IF you embrace it and commit to it and your child is a good fit for it (which can be difficult to determine ahead of time).  Some things will not be intuitive in teaching it, though.  Follow the instructions in the TM.  There are REASONS why you and the student are asked to do certain things that might seem silly or tedious.  Training in doing those things at the early levels will save a tremendous amount of time, effort and frustration at the higher levels and facilitates the learning process in general.  I would strongly recommend watching the videos, reading through the manual, practicing lessons ahead of time so delivery is smooth, etc. at least until you are more solid with how this program works.  But it is very systematic, thorough and set up so that parents are perfectly capable of implementing this system.  And once Barton is complete (all 10 levels), the student should be reading at High School level and actually be more advanced in some ways than ps peers.

 

But Barton is not for every student and it can take a lot of time to complete, depending on how often you tutor and how quickly your student picks it up.  Some kids have gotten through Level 1, the shortest level by far, in about a week.  Others have taken a year or more.  Level 2 took us a couple of months with one child and a couple of weeks with the other, IIRC.  Level 3 is definitely longer, but most kids that I know who have used it were able to get through Level 3 in a few months.  If it is a good fit, you could probably get through all three of the first levels of Barton in less than a year.  Level 4 is probably the longest and most difficult to implement.  It is sort of the big hump to get over.  Apparently, the levels that come after Level 4 are much easier and go faster for most kids.  Some people I know have taken a year or more to get through Level 4.  DD has been doing Level 4 since January/February of this year and we are only half way through.  I suspect we will take over a year to complete it....

 

It wouldn't hurt, IMHO, to just at least go through Level 1 and Level 2 and see how she does.   With those levels under her belt she could move on to other programs and might do just fine if you decide you don't want to continue.   I would suggest that if your child is really struggling with Level 1, though, and can't seem to get it within a couple of months, trying High Noon without even doing Level 2 might be the better option.

 

Fair warning, although the Levels are about the same price, Level 1 looks like nothing and Level 2 doesn't look much more impressive than Level 1.  Yet I found them absolutely essential.  Once I got over my disappointment at what I got for the money and actually started using Barton, the changes started happening pretty quickly.  I realized that there is a lot more there than it appears.  By mid-Level 3, it was like a key had been turned and a door unlocked for DD.  She could genuinely read.  Does she read fluently at grade level?  Not fact based, text dense material.  But she can pick up a book like Divergent and read it (and she did, in 5 days).  First time in her life was just this past Christmas, and she was in 7th grade.  It was such a huge boost of confidence for her.

[merry gardens]

One of mine barely passed the Barton screen. We started Barton. But I'm familiar with LiPS since another son needed it so we went over the sounds he had difficulty distinguishing. He can tell them apart but relies on lip reading sometimes to do it. In a booth at the audiologist he struggled so that plus other things earned him a diagnosis of auditory processing disorder.

The sounds /s/ and /sh/ have different lip shapes. You'll learn some tudor techniques in Barton to help direct the student's eyes to the lips. But /ch/ /j/ /sh/ all have similar lip shapes. I think the Barton manual has some suggestions for telling these apart. If the child needs just a few of these hints and passed the Barton screen, it should be fine to start Barton.

 

Barton vs. High Noon, well I don't know too much about High Noon. But after level 2 or 3, Barton students can use a few of the High Noon readers. I bought them as a set and noticed some of the other early H N readers teach silent e far earlier than Barton. For a child with vowel confussion or who has trouble reading left to right, Barton ' s delay in teaching silent e works very well. At least that was my experience with my children.

[Storygirl]

About math -- it's hard to say whether any program will work for sure, but since you are familiar with CLE, I'd say give it a try. Be sure to do the placement test. DD9 (undiagnosed, but with issues that sound similar to your daughter's) is doing well with CLE. She hasn't been able to memorize math facts, but she uses several tricks to accommodate that (while continuing to work on memorization). She enjoys math and has been advancing through the program. If there is a specific math area that you think needs remediation, others might have some recommendations.

[LaughingCat]

OneStep, those glitchy kind of things are what I finally figured out for DD that we just need to keep repeating exercises a few minutes a day - far past what any program I've done has had - and just go on otherwise because DD is 'getting it' even if she can't apply it 100%.  This is where I get the comparison to math facts - even though something is glitching, staying in place while we continue working on it would keep her far below the level she is capable of.   I wish I'd figured that out when we did LIPS - because I think it would help DD to be doing something like 1 word a day - but like your DS, she doesn't want to go there. 

 

BeccasBoys, no advice from me regarding either Barton or High Noon because I haven't used either (other than the High Noon readers) .  I used Abecedarian then Dancing Bears then LIPS followed by Rewards, with some bits and pieces inbetween.  And yes, it's hard to figure out what to do/pick out of too many choices.  Barton is the most recommended choice but I didn't think DD would do well applying rules -  I have heard Barton described differently since then but that was how it appeared to me at the time.

[OneStepAtATime]

OneStep, those glitchy kind of things are what I finally figured out for DD that we just need to keep repeating exercises a few minutes a day - far past what any program I've done has had - and just go on otherwise because DD is 'getting it' even if she can't apply it 100%.  This is where I get the comparison to math facts - even though something is glitching, staying in place while we continue working on it would keep her far below the level she is capable of.   I wish I'd figured that out when we did LIPS - because I think it would help DD to be doing something like 1 word a day - but like your DS, she doesn't want to go there. 

 

BeccasBoys, no advice from me regarding either Barton or High Noon because I haven't used either (other than the High Noon readers) .  I used Abecedarian then Dancing Bears then LIPS followed by Rewards, with some bits and pieces inbetween.  And yes, it's hard to figure out what to do/pick out of too many choices.  Barton is the most recommended choice but I didn't think DD would do well applying rules -  I have heard Barton described differently since then but that was how it appeared to me at the time.

Shoot, ran out of likes again.  Seriously, why are likes limited?  Anyway, consider yourself liked.  :)

 

I agree, repeating is helping.  He just gets so frustrated at the glitches.  And now that he is older I am more aware of the glitches that are in his every day speech.  Some sounds and word pairs just come out wrong.  He gets really tired of being corrected but DD and DH can't seem to help themselves.  He knows the correct sound he is seeking.   It just doesn't come out right.  Same with some of his writing.  He knows what he is seeking, but he may write the wrong letter then immediately go back to correct it as soon as it is written.  Drives him nuts.  He has little confidence in his reading and spelling because of the glitches even though his reading and spelling have improved tremendously.  I think Barton is definitely helping a lot.  But he is aware that although he and DD were on the same lessons for the bulk of Level 3, she has moved on to Level 4 and he had to repeat Level 3.  It frustrates him.  Level 4 is such a bear, he struggled quite a bit with the first lesson.  I really did not want to move him forward if he was tripping up that badly so I decided to have him repeat parts of 3.  But maybe I should have just moved forward...

[PeterPan]

My only comment would be to make sure she's *saying* the sounds correctly, since auditory discrimination and speech can be linked.  A speech eval might be in order.  You could go through the ps.  The SLP can test a variety of things and make sure nothing else is glitchy as a result of the hearing loss.  (language processing, grammar, etc.)

 

Once you have that info, then the next step may be obvious, or you could call Barton (the author) and run it by her.  She was very helpful to me.  If you think LIPS is $$, wait till you buy Barton, lol.  Really though, it would be nice to know you're not overbuying.  It would be really ironic if what seems like dyslexia is actually because of auditory discrimination issues because of the hearing loss.  

 

Have you tried metronome work for the working memory?  What you can do is find Heathermomster's metronome homework explanation here on the boards, and do it, building up.  When she can do the basic work comfortably, then start adding in digit spans using the Auditory Working Memory Workbook (Cusamano).  It's under $20 on amazon.  You don't have to do that forever, just a couple months, and I think you'll see some progress.  You were saying you don't know what to do for fall, so I'm suggesting you start the metronome work, get that going, and by September you'll have seen some measurable progress there.  Then that will give you more working memory to harness for the curriculum you're trying to do.   :)

[LaughingCat]

Shoot, ran out of likes again.  Seriously, why are likes limited?  Anyway, consider yourself liked.   :)

 

I agree, repeating is helping.  He just gets so frustrated at the glitches.  And now that he is older I am more aware of the glitches that are in his every day speech.  Some sounds and word pairs just come out wrong.  He gets really tired of being corrected but DD and DH can't seem to help themselves.  He knows the correct sound he is seeking.   It just doesn't come out right.  Same with some of his writing.  He knows what he is seeking, but he may write the wrong letter then immediately go back to correct it as soon as it is written.  Drives him nuts.  He has little confidence in his reading and spelling because of the glitches even though his reading and spelling have improved tremendously.  I think Barton is definitely helping a lot.  But he is aware that although he and DD were on the same lessons for the bulk of Level 3, she has moved on to Level 4 and he had to repeat Level 3.  It frustrates him.  Level 4 is such a bear, he struggled quite a bit with the first lesson.  I really did not want to move him forward if he was tripping up that badly so I decided to have him repeat parts of 3.  But maybe I should have just moved forward...

That is so interesting because the whole glitches in speech is what improved most with DD with LIPS. She still does this when reading - where she adds/drops/moves letters/sounds (she still has poor articulation though).   And it was a clear change the summer we did LIPS - glitching often when speaking before LIPS (at least once a day), going to glitching rarely when speaking after  -- and trailing off - so immediately after was was much less but still obvious and continued improving over the next few months until now I can't remember the last time she glitched when speaking.    

 

Perhaps you could try redoing LIPS by presenting it to him as a quick review and ongoing repeat to address this specific issue rather than reading?   Also,I did way more splitting the words based on sound than LIPS appears to call for in the manual/dvds - it jumps right to using colored squares and I didn't do that at all but made DD pick out the mouth sound.  Really, we did very little 'reading' work at that point - it was all listening to words and picking out the correct mouth pictures. 

 

And hmm! perhaps I did not spend enough time connecting reading to the mouth pictures - and that is why she still glitches when reading but not when speaking -- LIPS seems to think once they 'got' the mouth connection they apply it but that is exactly the type of thing where DD needs continued repetition while moving forward.  

 

It's interesting to think that I have castigated myself many times for waffling on LIPS so long but perhaps there was actually some advantage to her being both older and further along with reading knowledge before doing it.

[OneStepAtATime]

That is so interesting because the whole glitches in speech is what improved most with DD with LIPS. She still does this when reading - where she adds/drops/moves letters/sounds (she still has poor articulation though).   And it was a clear change the summer we did LIPS - glitching often when speaking before LIPS (at least once a day), going to glitching rarely when speaking after  -- and trailing off - so immediately after was was much less but still obvious and continued improving over the next few months until now I can't remember the last time she glitched when speaking.    

 

Perhaps you could try redoing LIPS by presenting it to him as a quick review and ongoing repeat to address this specific issue rather than reading?   Also,I did way more splitting the words based on sound than LIPS appears to call for in the manual/dvds - it jumps right to using colored squares and I didn't do that at all but made DD pick out the mouth sound.  Really, we did very little 'reading' work at that point - it was all listening to words and picking out the correct mouth pictures. 

 

And hmm! perhaps I did not spend enough time connecting reading to the mouth pictures - and that is why she still glitches when reading but not when speaking -- LIPS seems to think once they 'got' the mouth connection they apply it but that is exactly the type of thing where DD needs continued repetition while moving forward.  

 

It's interesting to think that I have castigated myself many times for waffling on LIPS so long but perhaps there was actually some advantage to her being both older and further along with reading knowledge before doing it.

Life is a real muddle right now, so my summer plans have been blown to bits.  Trying to work out our fall 4 hour each way weakly commutes (for at least thru end of September) so that we still have some sort of routine and can get things done.  But I do really think DS might benefit from another run at LiPS....and what you said above really speaks to me.  I will work on this and possibly attempt to do LiPS reviews in September (traveling too much right now).  Thanks for the feedback, Laughing Cat!

 

And sorry to hijack your thread, beccaboys!  :)  I hope some of this back and forth has helped you a bit.  

[WaterLily]

So much info! :) I m going to have to reread the replies several times to get it all!

 

OneStep,

I know you're right that there is no way to know which would work better without trying both. I hate the thought of wasting time and $ on the wrong thing but I guess it happens sometimes. :/  Thanks for sharing your experience with Barton. Maybe this info is on their website, but would we do Barton every day?  I would assume so since it's all she'd be doing for language arts.  Also, do we not even worry about grammar?  My boys used Rod & Staff for grammar (which I LOVE!) so it's hard for me to imagine not doing any grammar in 5th grade. 

 

merry,

My daughter has been to the audiologist several times for her hearing loss but they've never even mentioned anything about auditory processing.  The auditory processing/dyslexia was what the school found.  Dd goes to the otologist once a year and the audiologist there tests her hearing loss but they only check to see if the hearing loss has progressed.  Is that a special kind of audiologist that checks for things like auditory processing?  Your input on the sound comparisons was helpful.  For the /s/ and /sh/ I'm guessing that's a memory issue b/c she just couldn't remember the order of the sounds.  The other one was a combination of issues b/c she kept throwing a /g/ sound in there and just got all mixed up on all 3 sounds.  But if Barton gives some hints, as you say, it might be enough for her?

 

StoryGirl,

Thanks for your thoughts on math!  I may just try CLE again.  That's what we were doing up through 2nd grade before I put her in the Montessori school.  I felt like she was doing OK.  I know she'll need help with her facts though, due to the memory issues.  Overall, math is her strength.  I need to figure out what level to put her in b/c I feel like she didn't progress at the Montessori school as much as she could've. :/

 

LaughingCat,

Oh no....did you really give me more options?!? lol!  I know that was probably not what you were trying to do but now I must compulsively research Abecedarian and Dancing Bears. ;). Maybe you can spare me and tell me those don't fit our situation?  If you did them BEFORE LiPS maybe my dd would be past needing those?

 

OhElizabeth,

She was getting speech services at the Montessori school. The speech therapist (she's great) has been working with her on her /r/ sound production and she said they "incorporate activities to strengthen her ability to recall information presented auditorily (which involves immediate memory and attention skills as well)". She told me that since my dd qualifies for services she may still be able to get speech through our public school (and she does recommend we continue).

 

It seemed as thought LiPS was more expensive than buying one level of Barton? I guess that's what I was comparing.

 

You said....

"It would be really ironic if what seems like dyslexia is actually because of auditory discrimination issues because of the hearing loss.". We've talked about this with the school because it's so hard to know if any of this is the result of hearing loss. But her loss is mild and so far everyone who has worked with her, assessed her, etc, thinks it's not the hearing loss but the way she's hearing the sounds, processing or whatever. :). She also struggles with writing so that points to more than hearing I suppose. And then there are the memory issues. (It's never simple is it?!)

 

And speaking of memory, no, I haven't heard of metronome! I'll check it out! I definitely want to help her with her working memory as, like you said, it will help across the board!

[OneStepAtATime]

So much info! :) I m going to have to reread the replies several times to get it all!

 

OneStep,

I know you're right that there is no way to know which would work better without trying both. I hate the thought of wasting time and $ on the wrong thing but I guess it happens sometimes. :/  Thanks for sharing your experience with Barton. Maybe this info is on their website, but would we do Barton every day?  I would assume so since it's all she'd be doing for language arts.  Also, do we not even worry about grammar?  My boys used Rod & Staff for grammar (which I LOVE!) so it's hard for me to imagine not doing any grammar in 5th grade. 

 

Hugs.  Sorry we are bombarding you with lots of stuff without giving you the one right answer!   :)

 

O.k. with grammar, if you did Barton I would suggest stepping away from grammar a bit during the first 3 levels, but it depends.  If you are not forcing them to try to sound out words, spell words, read words, write words independently, while doing grammar it might be fine.  You might ask Susan Barton.

 

Basically, you do only Barton for Language Arts for the first 3-4 levels to undo ingrained bad habits that frequently develop with dyslexics or to prevent bad habits from developing while they get the concepts more solid.  If the bad habits aren't undone, then the child may do well with Barton lessons but may not be able to apply that knowledge to other things.  They fall back on bad patterns and inefficient ways of reading/writing/spelling.  After Level 4 you can incorporate a separate writing/grammar program.  She recommends IEW with Fix It Grammar but honestly you can use whatever works.  And a bit of grammar IS covered in the early levels, but more subtly.  It will probably be review for your child if they were doing Rod and Staff, but that will make the lessons easier to do.

 

As for scheduling, I found that a standard tutoring schedule (2 hours once a week or one hour twice a week) did NOT work for us.  The lessons were too long and draining.  We ended up doing about 30 -45 min. a day, sometimes as short as 20 min, and usually first thing in the morning when they were fresher.  DD rises early so I worked with her first.  Then DS would get up and I would work with him while DD went off to do something else.  I always keep the sessions separate, with no one else in the room so there is no embarrassment if they struggle with something and there are no distractions.  

 

And if it looks like we are really stuck, I will either have them stop for the day while I review the material and see if there are suggestions for other ways to approach it or we at least take a few minutes break.  I don't press and press if they are getting really upset and frustrated because I have found they are much more resistant the next lesson and they are shutting down, anyway and not retaining anything.  

 

I also got on the Spelling Success website and bought the game cards for Level 3 and 4 so on Fridays we sometimes don't even do a full lesson.  We may review with Extra Practice sheets (available for free on the website) and play one of the Barton card games for reinforcement.  Of course, at other times we actually have done lessons every single day but Sunday.  Once the kids got used to the system and I was really consistent with when we did the lessons, they actually didn't mind Saturday lessons since they knew they would be short.

 

I hope I helped some....

[PeterPan]

Yes, you want an audiologist who has a booth to do the specialized auditory processing.  Be prepared to travel to a bigger city, since it's not the kind of thing you typically find in a small town.  Google "CAPD audiologist" and the city name and see what pops up.  The deal with the booth is they isolate the child and put in earbuds and they get *really detailed* info on how each ear is processing.

[WaterLily]

OneStep,

Yes, you have helped tremendously! :) Thank you for explaining what worked for you as far as scheduling. I was concerned about the length of the lessons b/c I can't see my daughter being able to do an hour or more of Barton in one sitting. Of course I don't even have the program yet so it's hard to say how she'll feel about it, but I'm guessing that 30-45 min every day would work better.

 

And thanks for info about the grammar. I just wonder if we could work in some grammar that didn't require much, if any, reading. I mean I'd like to make sure she knows parts of speech, types of sentences, etc, but wouldn't want to interfere with what Barton is trying to accomplish. Hmmmm....

 

Thanks again!!! :)

[OneStepAtATime]

OneStep,

Yes, you have helped tremendously! :) Thank you for explaining what worked for you as far as scheduling. I was concerned about the length of the lessons b/c I can't see my daughter being able to do an hour or more of Barton in one sitting. Of course I don't even have the program yet so it's hard to say how she'll feel about it, but I'm guessing that 30-45 min every day would work better.

 

And thanks for info about the grammar. I just wonder if we could work in some grammar that didn't require much, if any, reading. I mean I'd like to make sure she knows parts of speech, types of sentences, etc, but wouldn't want to interfere with what Barton is trying to accomplish. Hmmmm....

 

Thanks again!!! :)

I understand your concerns.  I fretted about grammar, too.  And my daughter will be turning 14.  :)  

 

At least for us it has worked better just to follow the recommendations from Barton.  We will be starting IEW coupled with Fix-It Grammar (the new one) as soon as DD is finished with Level 4 (hopefully before Christmas).  

 

What really helped more than actually studying grammar was audio books and my reading to the kids.  I have tried to increase our time doing that so that they are being exposed to a lot of complex vocabulary/grammar/concepts that are beyond their current reading capability but are within their grasp conceptually (and are age appropriate for content).    That and some higher quality movies has actually helped a lot.

 

When I was in school, my dad was military.  We moved around a LOT when I was a kid.  Consequently, my school experience was erratic.  Different schools taught different things at different times and it was a bit of a muddle.  Math did not work well this way since I lacked a good foundation by the time I hit High School.  But I read ALL THE TIME.  And reading helped with grammar/spelling/writing/comprehension way more than the piece mealed language arts instruction I got in school.  In fact, I got a near perfect score on the SAT even though I could hardly diagram a sentence.  And I got great grades on writing assignments.  I just knew what sounded right because of exposure, lots of it.

 

 I say this to reassure you that there is plenty of time for grammar.  Waiting a few months or even a year or so to pick up formal grammar again will not hurt your child, IMHO, as long as you are still giving lots of exposure to quality reading material without her own reading difficulties bogging her down.  Does that make sense?  :)

 

But you are the parent and must do what feels right for you and your child.  Others using Barton HAVE continued a formal grammar program through the early levels.  Big hugs and lots of mental support vibes are heading your way.   :grouphug:

[LaughingCat]

I didn't really go in a nice progression -- it was the continuing 'glitchyness' that led me to finally go for LIPS not the fact that the earlier programs were a lower level -- it was more that LIPS hit a certain ongoing issue 'just right'.  LIPS does fit perfectly before Barton level 1 though if you are going the Barton route and it is often recommended for those with auditory processing issues as well.

 

If you buy the full pkg LIPS is more than Barton  - but a lot of stuff that is included is meant for someone who will be teaching multiple students ( a tutor or SLP).  I bought the extra DVD's used first (that is what convinced me that LIPS would actually be useful for my DD) and then just the manual.    If you bought just the manual it would be $130.95  + the card deck (cheapest lip/letter choice) = $160     First level of Barton is $250 so you could even buy the first extra dvd or the nicer magnetic lips/letters and still be in the same price range as Barton.

 

Here's a quick synopsis of the programs I mentioned:

Abecedarian - more morpheme based and less rule based.  Often suggested on various dyslexia lists I'm on as something to try before Barton because for the kids it works for it works well and it is faster and cheaper.  For my DD there was not enough practice  -- DD does well with mastery based + ongoing practice but Abecedarian is mastery w/no built in ongoing practice.  

 

Dancing Bears - morpheme based English program for dyslexics  - this was good for DD, lots of practice with unusual words.  I'm still able to reuse parts of Dancing Bears (although in a completely different way than suggested lol!)

 

LIPS - uses lip/mouth/tongue movements to differentiate sounds (this is the part Barton wants you to use) and then moves to more standard dyslexia type word practice - LIPS is not so open and go and requires a lot more work from the teacher.    It was well worth it here even though we did it "out of order".  

 

Rewards is for kids struggling with complex multisyllable words.

 

Barton - the gold standard for homeschoolers -  I rejected it because memorization/application of rules does not work for DD - but the way OneStep (and others) have described it there is perhaps not so much memorization as I thought.  I would still have concerns about having to perform consistently at each level to move on -  due to the 'glitchyness' that DD displays.   When it comes down to though - I just thought DD would have been one of those kids that would have been in levels 3 &  4 for at least a year each and with no outside reading suggested until after level 4.... that just wasn't the way I wanted to go.  If I knew then what I know now I could probably have worked around my concerns.... but of course I didn't know squat back then (and only the tip of the iceberg now lol!)

 

To add one more item - we also did VT 2x and both times my DD showed reading improvement for speed/stamina.

[LaughingCat]

Just wanted to add that, if money is not an issue,  I don't think you can go wrong starting with Barton level 1 (or LIPS is you decide that is worthwhile) - and that way you can get started while you're continuing to research.  Worst case is your DD blows through them because she didn't really need them.   But it is worth the time researching and looking at all the options IMO because I think the different programs come at things different ways and so some work for certain learners better than others.  I agree it's hard to tell what is best though - i have waffled around plenty during this journey.  

 

The pre-Barton portion of LIPS is associating mouth/lip/tongue positions to sounds.  (if you look at the Logic of English Foundations free samples they have a descriptions similar to LIPS for consonants - look for Kinesthetic Awareness sections in the teacher chap 1-3 sample )

 

Barton Level 1 is all about splitting words into parts based on sound (this is actually also the next section of LIPS after the mouth/sounds portion - but Barton is more in depth and scripted).

 

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree with Laughing Cat.  By the way, I know it may seem silly to go back to just sound associations instead of even sound letter associations with a child the age of yours (Barton Level 1).  I know I balked at the idea.  Both of my kids were talking in full, complex sentences by 18 months or younger.  They did not struggle to learn their alphabet.  They are both articulate.  They had both been in school for several years and were making good grades on their report cards even if many daily grades were abysmal.  Going back seemed like a horrible waste of time and I was very concerned we would never catch up.  But going back that far was exactly what was needed to finally start unlocking reading/spelling for both of my kids.  If we hadn't, I fear we would still be spinning our wheels.   Things aren't perfect but they are a darn sight better than 2 years ago.  I hope whatever you choose it is as successful for you as Barton has been for us.  Best wishes....

[LaughingCat]

Just went and read your other post on special needs - and after reading that I have to say  I think LIPS would really be worth it even though she squeaked past the test.   The previous name of LIPS was "Auditory Processing In Depth"  - and I know I've read plenty online about using it for kids with auditory processing and/or speech issues.

[Pen]

I used HN successfully, but cannot compare Barton since I did not use that.  You may find more in this thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/503063-dyslexia-and-coping-strategies-that-hinder-learning-to-read/page-2 -- including someone (QueenGoddessoftheDeep) currently using HN with a 10 year old, who I think had tried unsuccessfully with a lot of other programs, but not sure if Barton's among them.

 

We used MUS for math prior to reading being in better shape because the pages are helpful with dyslexia.  I guess Schiller is more like Montessori.

 

We are currently using Spelling Power, but I would say that reading should be in good shape prior to being concerned with spelling (that is my own experience, I know some people believe that spelling and reading go hand in hand, but my ds could read well at a point that his spelling was still abysmal, and it would have just added on frustration to make reading slow down to the spelling level.

[OneStepAtATime]

I used HN successfully, but cannot compare Barton since I did not use that.  You may find more in this thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/503063-dyslexia-and-coping-strategies-that-hinder-learning-to-read/page-2 -- including someone (QueenGoddessoftheDeep) currently using HN with a 10 year old, who I think had tried unsuccessfully with a lot of other programs, but not sure if Barton's among them.

 

We used MUS for math prior to reading being in better shape because the pages are helpful with dyslexia.  I guess Schiller is more like Montessori.

 

We are currently using Spelling Power, but I would say that reading should be in good shape prior to being concerned with spelling (that is my own experience, I know some people believe that spelling and reading go hand in hand, but my ds could read well at a point that his spelling was still abysmal, and it would have just added on frustration to make reading slow down to the spelling level.

Yep, her son used Barton and he stayed at Level 1 for a year with little progress through a professional tutor.  But her son did MUCH better with High Noon.  

[WaterLily]

OneStep,

Yes, I totally agree about the reading! I plan to read lots of great books to her! I know hearing great literature is so important. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the grammar. Good points. :). I did wonder if starting with LiPS or level 1 of Barton was really necessary but I'm understanding better now and seeing the value.

 

LaughingCat,

That was so awesome of you to explain the different programs! I'm sure I'll do some more research but you saved me hours lol! Thanks for reading my other post too.  You're description of LiPS makes me nervous though.  I imagine that any program for dyslexia is going to be a lot of work for the teacher....but is it even a lot of work considering that? I may sound lazy here but I just know I need a program that does a lot of hand holding since this type of teaching is new to me. I know you said it is worth it though...

 

Unfortunately, money IS an issue.  That's why I'm trying so hard to find a good fit right off the bat....if possible.  But of course I'm willing to keep trying until we do find something that works.  I'm a little nervous about spending $250 on Barton and if we do LiPS first then Barton will have to wait just a bit.  So when I see someone mention something cheaper that has a method similar to Barton, I'll at least check it out.  But I'm sure there's nothing out there exactly like Barton (or LiPS).

 

Pen,

Thanks for the link!  I'll check it out for sure! I wonder what it was that made H N work for her dc where Barton didn't. Of course my dd may have different issues. I'll have to read the thread. :) And I'll need to do more reading/research on H N but does it have any auditory processing help like Barton and LiPS? 

I agree with you about spelling and would not add that as a separate subject right now. 

 

Thank you all!!!!

[OneStepAtATime]

OneStep,

Yes, I totally agree about the reading! I plan to read lots of great books to her! I know hearing great literature is so important. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the grammar. Good points. :). I did wonder if starting with LiPS or level 1 of Barton was really necessary but I'm understanding better now and seeing the value.

 

LaughingCat,

That was so awesome of you to explain the different programs! I'm sure I'll do some more research but you saved me hours lol! Thanks for reading my other post too.  You're description of LiPS makes me nervous though.  I imagine that any program for dyslexia is going to be a lot of work for the teacher....but is it even a lot of work considering that? I may sound lazy here but I just know I need a program that does a lot of hand holding since this type of teaching is new to me. I know you said it is worth it though...

 

Unfortunately, money IS an issue.  That's why I'm trying so hard to find a good fit right off the bat....if possible.  But of course I'm willing to keep trying until we do find something that works.  I'm a little nervous about spending $250 on Barton and if we do LiPS first then Barton will have to wait just a bit.  So when I see someone mention something cheaper that has a method similar to Barton, I'll at least check it out.  But I'm sure there's nothing out there exactly like Barton (or LiPS).

 

Pen,

Thanks for the link!  I'll check it out for sure! I wonder what it was that made H N work for her dc where Barton didn't. Of course my dd may have different issues. I'll have to read the thread. :) And I'll need to do more reading/research on H N but does it have any auditory processing help like Barton and LiPS? 

I agree with you about spelling and would not add that as a separate subject right now. 

 

Thank you all!!!!

Good luck!  I wish there were easy, solid, definite answers.  We floundered for so long before finding Barton.  And we floundered even longer trying to find help for math.  I have spent a fortune on curriculum over the past 2 and a half years.  Which is why I am still driving my ancient van and wearing 7 year old shoes.  :)  Huge hugs.  Whatever path you take I wish you all the best.

 

One suggestion is to possibly buy a used version of LiPS, use it, then resell it to recoup some money.  Maybe you would be able to buy Barton then.  And if you have no desire to ever tutor anyone else, then once you finish Level 1 of Barton you could resell at not that much off of the original price (they usually maintain their value quite well) to pay for Level 2 and so on.  I must warn you that if you choose this path you should buy an extra set of tiles for Level 2.  When you resell the purchaser will expect tiles but you will need the Level 2 tiles for Level 3.  Most people who plan to resell order a second set of tiles when they order Level 2 for that reason.  

[Pen]

...

 

Pen,

Thanks for the link!  I'll check it out for sure! I wonder what it was that made H N work for her dc where Barton didn't. Of course my dd may have different issues. I'll have to read the thread. :) And I'll need to do more reading/research on H N but does it have any auditory processing help like Barton and LiPS? 

I agree with you about spelling and would not add that as a separate subject right now. 

 

Thank you all!!!!

 

HN Intervention program starts with the letter sounds (and names too).

 

If you follow the Teacher Guide it has parts that tell you to do things like have the child do something--can't recall exactly what --(been awhile now which is why I thought Queen Goddess using it right now might be of more help--maybe start a new thread about High Noon and she'd see it) like say put up a finger if a word has a particular sound in it.

 

I had to drop that part actually because my ds who had had articulation and hearing issues (earlier IEP for speech), found it impossible to do that. And yet, he seemed to be able to follow and learn from the reading practice parts they gave without that. He needed more practice for fluency than might have been the case if the hearing and articulation issues had been less. Helpfully HN had sounds that frequently get confused like /i/ and /e/ separated, so there was a lot of practice of just short i words well separated from short e words. It seemed like the practice itself helped his clarity on the sounds rather than trying to get the sounds clear first. Also, it was not rule based, so he did not have to learn phonograms that would make up a particular sound--you know, like memorizing all the ways that a long e can be written and then trying them on words. Instead it gave practice with one or another form, usually the most common first, and they just became fluent and automatic by doing it, not by memorizing a rule.

 

So now, when he is working on something like how to spell "imagine" but has said it as if the word were uhmajun, I can refer back to words he knows to explain the sounds, rather than trying to get him to hear me say the sound--which just leads him to tell me I said uh rather than ih. Not sure if that makes sense. But say he had a whole story with Tim in it, I could say that imagine begins like Tim without the T...and should be said that way too.

[LaughingCat]

I'm with you on cost!  Probably if Barton had been much cheaper I would have gone with it even with my reservations due to it's great reputation.  But my little descriptions were just meant as a starter lol!  There are lots of threads here with more details on all the programs although it can take some searching to find them.  Even though Barton has the top rep, it is not necessarily the best or only choice.  Unfortunately it is usually not clear what is the best choice either :(  You can see my own choice was to go with lower cost suggestions - and the jury is still out as DD still has various 'glitches' whether she's reading 7th grade material or 3rd grade material.