s/o Poverty and Crime

[shinyhappypeople]

Collen wrote: 

 

 

Right.  And gangs themselves are the by-product of the real issues:  poverty & lack of jobs.  What baffles me is that some people genuinely consider America "the greatest" nation on earth when these sort of endemic issues exist.

 

 

So that leads me to the question of the day:  Does poverty lead to crime, or does crime lead to poverty?  Discuss :)

 

I first heard this question posed many years ago and it's stuck with me.  It's not easily answered, which is probably why it intrigues me so much.

 

[poppy]

Poverty leads to crime. But not invariably.

 

[MrsMommy]

I agree that poverty leads to crime. Surely there are exceptions to the rule, but I'm sure that when you face extreme levels of poverty, you do things that you otherwise wouldn't consider. And the cycle just perpetuates itself from there.

 

While we're on the subject, I highly recommend the book There are No Children Here, which focuses on housing projects in Chicago. I read it almost 20 years ago, and I still think about it often. It really makes you see inner cities in a whole new way.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

I tend to lean towards... Poverty leads to parents too busy working to properly raise kids, and, a poor education, which leads to crime.

 

I think there isn't a single reason- more like a cobweb of reasons.

[PeacefulChaos]

I think the mindset that sometimes accompanies poverty - usually where it is their lifestyle - leads to crime.

 

For example, there are people who live in poverty with no expectation of getting out of it.  They have given up.  They raise their children to believe there is nothing else - what they have right now is all that exists for them.  

 

Instant gratification has to do with it.  Because of the upbringing many of them have (reminder that I'm talking about those with this mindset only) they don't understand the concept of delaying it.  They don't look at the possibilities for the future that would pull them out of poverty because those would require delaying gratification.  

 

Many schools in these areas are poor.  Parents aren't around.  Kids are left to their own devices, and when there is a gang around they find a place to 'belong'.  For most kids, it is the only place they feel they belong.

 

Now, there is an entirely different subset of poverty where people work their butts off and are still poor.  I will say that most fall into this category - or into that ever-elusive lower middle class/working class subset.  These are people working hard to get by but still not making nearly enough.  I don't think poverty like this leads to crime.

[OneStepAtATime]

I understand what people are saying and I agree that poverty can be a definite factor.  But it is by no means the whole picture.  

 

Many of my extended family members were living in extreme poverty for many years.  They never turned to crime, they did not drop out of school (although many worked jobs after school or on weekends), and they did not do drugs.  And many worked VERY hard to educate themselves and improve their standard of living.  But they had family that held them to a certain standard, gave them lots of emotional support even if they had little financial support to give, and believed in them.  They also came from homes that taught them to be independent, value self-education, support for the community and their families, etc.  

 

I have a dear friend that was living WAY below the poverty level for most of her childhood.  There were times when getting food on the table was an iffy proposition.   She and her husband do not have a college education and she had to drop out of high school to support her mother and siblings so she never even finished her High School diploma.  She has never once broken the law, she works hard every day to educate her children and herself, she still hopes someday to go to college and her husband found a trade he could train in so that he could support himself, and then eventually his family once he married.  They live very frugally, but they have managed to buy a used car, a tiny piece of land, and a beat up, used mobile home that they are restoring themselves.  Poverty did not force them to be criminals.  It made life more challenging, but they have strong values and ethics and have found a way through.  But they came from families that, while poor, also had strong values and ethics and they passed that down to their kids.

 

Poverty can make it much harder to survive or find opportunity.  And certainly you may find yourself in almost impossible situations.  But it doesn't MAKE you turn to crime.  It does increase the likelihood that you MIGHT turn to crime, I agree.  But poverty does not equal a life of crime.  I agree with pps, a large part of this is what the culture of the home is.  Do they value education?  Do they value their children and believe in them?  Do they demonstrate good values and ethics?  Do they demonstrate responsible actions with finances, even if they have very little money coming in?

 

There are posters on this Forum that have faced extreme poverty and homelessness.  From their posts it does not appear that they immediately turned to a life of crime to turn things around, KWIM?

 

I agree with what PeacefulChaos says about the different mindsets by the way....

 

 

Best wishes to all....

[OneStepAtATime]

And the people I know personally who have actually broken the law and gone to jail were very privilege individuals.  They were not suffering financially.  

 

Edited to add that they also seemed to come from families with values, too, so I think there are a LOT of things involved in why someone would choose to commit a crime.  

[Joanne]

The real search supports that poverty and crime are correlated. That does not mean that every person touched by, in, or experienced with poverty will turn to crime. Anecdotal evidence to refute or support is interesting but misses the point logically.

 

Poverty is associated with many things correlated with crime.

 

Part of the he problem discussing this issue *here* - in the US, on this board, are myths and misunderstandings regarding poverty. In the US, it is a commonly held belief that hard work is a panacea and will be a solution to poverty. The Facts indicate something else, though. Hard work in low level jobs statistically means more hard work at low level jobs.

[Harriet Vane]

Your question is impossible to answer because it does not take into account the many, many factors that contribute to crime and that contribute to poverty. The other thing that makes it impossible to answer is that any of the risk factors for crime and poverty are also factors that can drive a person AWAY from crime.

 

Other factors:

 

--socioeconomic status

--dysfunctional family

--having been abused (As I said, this can and does often push people AWAY from crime/abuse, but can also be a risk factor for personal criminal behavior whether from despair (prostitution or drugs) or rage or acting out.)

--personal moral fiber

--depth of poverty (Desperation can lead to desperate acts, though not always.)

--exposure to crime or criminal behavior, especially if considered "normal" to family structure

--participation in community faith organization

--exposure to gainful employment as a positive force in family culture or in personal life or both

 

That's just off the top of my head. There are probably more.

[Farrar]

I respect that this is a nuanced issue with many facets...  but the question isn't one that confounds me or anything.  Poverty leads to crime.  Sure, sometimes people break the law and it leads to poverty, especially when drugs are involved or the person gets a job-killing criminal record, but the overwhelmingly more common story is that people are born into poverty and have fewer choices.  The fact that not all people who live in poverty become criminals doesn't negate the fact that poverty is one of the largest factors leading to crime.  

 

When people born into affluence make bad choices, especially when they're young, such as trying illegal drugs or committing petty theft, their families bail them out and help them stay on a path that's not in poverty.  That's not an option when your family is poor.  In fact, just accomplishing simple tasks that people with plenty take for granted - like renewing your driver's license, for example - can become ten times harder when you're poor (no car to get there, no cash on hand to pay the fees, no way to take time off a job to go during business hours, no computer or internet to easily renew online, no access to even know about easier options by looking them up online).  And once you begin committing crimes, it becomes harder and harder to live life on the straight and narrow because the few doors that were open to you begin to close.  So crime leads to more crime leads to not having a path out of poverty.  But the root beginning was the poverty.

[Harriet Vane]

I respect that this is a nuanced issue with many facets...  but the question isn't one that confounds me or anything.  Poverty leads to crime.  Sure, sometimes people break the law and it leads to poverty, especially when drugs are involved or the person gets a job-killing criminal record, but the overwhelmingly more common story is that people are born into poverty and have fewer choices.  The fact that not all people who live in poverty become criminals doesn't negate the fact that poverty is one of the largest factors leading to crime.  

 

When people born into affluence make bad choices, especially when they're young, such as trying illegal drugs or committing petty theft, their families bail them out and help them stay on a path that's not in poverty.  That's not an option when your family is poor.  In fact, just accomplishing simple tasks that people with plenty take for granted - like renewing your driver's license, for example - can become ten times harder when you're poor (no car to get there, no cash on hand to pay the fees, no way to take time off a job to go during business hours, no computer or internet to easily renew online, no access to even know about easier options by looking them up online).  And once you begin committing crimes, it becomes harder and harder to live life on the straight and narrow because the few doors that were open to you begin to close.  So crime leads to more crime leads to not having a path out of poverty.  But the root beginning was the poverty.

 

This is one aspect.

 

Another point to consider, though, is that crimes committed in affluence can lead to further crime because the affluence enables the criminal to escape meaningful consequences to their crimes. Also affluence is a contributing factor to a different type of crime that requires more education to be able to commit. Hence the list of other factors coming into play.

 

Nevertheless it is true that if a poor person is legally caught committing a crime, they are far less likely to rise above their new status as a criminal than is a person with more means. That goes quadruple if the poor person is a person of color.

[Farrar]

This is one aspect.

 

Another point to consider, though, is that crimes committed in affluence can lead to further crime because the affluence enables the criminal to escape meaningful consequences to their crimes. Also affluence is a contributing factor to a different type of crime that requires more education to be able to commit. Hence the list of other factors coming into play.

 

Nevertheless it is true that if a poor person is legally caught committing a crime, they are far less likely to rise above their new status as a criminal than is a person with more means. That goes quadruple if the poor person is a person of color.

 

I agree.  But that just supports the idea that crime does not lead to poverty, that it's the other way around.  The affluent criminal doesn't suffer the same consequences and the crime does not lead to poverty.  And while obviously there are plenty of rich or middle class criminals, there not a correlation there like there is with people in poverty.

[Mrs Mungo]

Collen wrote: 

 

 

 

 

 

So that leads me to the question of the day:  Does poverty lead to crime, or does crime lead to poverty?  Discuss :)

 

I first heard this question posed many years ago and it's stuck with me.  It's not easily answered, which is probably why it intrigues me so much.

Did you watch the PBS documentary on the Crips and the Bloods? It is a really, really interesting documentary.

[MotherGoose]

I was a social worker before I began homeschooling, so I have seen abuse, crime, poverty. I don't claim to have the answers, because it is a difficult topic with no easy answers. I think the family culture and a lack of drug addiction is what keeps poor people from turning to crime. People who are addicted to drugs will do terrible things they might not otherwise do to satisfy the habit. People who want to benefit financially from other peoples' habits will commit crimes to earn money. There are other poor people who would not consider crime. In speaking with parents of children who have committed crimes, there are usually two types: one set of parents is horrified and wants their child to behave better, and is afraid of where their child will end up if they don't reform, and the other set of parents may give lip service to the need to obey the laws, or may actually blame the system for encouraging the child to break the law (I'll never forget the parent who told me that the car dealership shouldn't make expensive cars so easy/appealing for kids to steal as an explanation for her son's high speed chase in a stolen car). The latter is a family culture issue, and not a poverty issue.

[OneStepAtATime]

The real search supports that poverty and crime are correlated. That does not mean that every person touched by, in, or experienced with poverty will turn to crime. Anecdotal evidence to refute or support is interesting but misses the point logically.

 

Poverty is associated with many things correlated with crime.

 

Part of the he problem discussing this issue *here* - in the US, on this board, are myths and misunderstandings regarding poverty. In the US, it is a commonly held belief that hard work is a panacea and will be a solution to poverty. The Facts indicate something else, though. Hard work in low level jobs statistically means more hard work at low level jobs.

Agree with this wholeheartedly.  Does hard work automatically equate with a better job, ability to raise socio-economic status, etc.?  No.  Sadly, it doesn't 

 

It doesn't automatically mean someone will turn to crime, either.  If you read studies a huge contributing factor is the family culture, and culture of the environment they are living in.

[Liza Q]

Just some thoughts. I come from a large Puerto Rican family - my Dad and his siblings came here in the 50s - very West Side Story. They were poor. He is one of five children. Four, including him, moved up, so to speak, economically. Worked hard. Went to college, even when it took them 8-10 years to finish, so they could get ahead. All of their children today are working, responsible, middle class; almost all of us have college degrees.

 

My aunt was a different story. She had five children in the late 50s - early 60s, and then her husband left her. She started drinking, badly. Ended up in the projects. Had several more kids with various men - all of them were bad news. Three of my cousins died of AIDS in the late 80s, as they had become heroin addicts. Some of the boys went to jail on and off so she shipped a few down to Florida where her oldest son lived (who had gotten out of that home as soon as he could) helped them get back on track.

 

I know that this is anecdotal, but this is not just my family. Here in NYC, almost every family I know with a cousin in jail or in a gang can trace the issues back to alcoholism and drug addiction. It is not just poverty.

 

But my husband is a good example of overcoming alcoholic parents and poverty. His grandparents were stable, and they kept him from getting too far off track. He was "poor", but they helped out enough and made up the difference. As an adult, he knew that he wanted to be like his grandfather, not his Dad.

 

IOW, I know a lot of people who were seriously "project" poor. Only a few of their family members became criminals. IMO, poverty is usually a factor in that kind of crime, but I don't believe it is the foundational problem.

[Crimson Wife]

Growing up in a poor neighborhood means less access to a decent education and good adult role models. Crime leads to middle-class flight so whereas 50 years ago there were more socioeconomically mixed neighborhoods, today neighborhoods are mostly stratified economically. In the mixed neighborhoods that do still exist, the children attend different schools. My cousin lives in Brooklyn in a gentrifying neighborhood that is still mixed in terms of SES, but his daughter attends a GATE program. If she doesn't get into one of the city's exam high schools she's likely to attend private school. He's able to afford tutoring for the entrance exam and private high school tuition if need be. His poorer neighbors don't have those resources.

 

OTOH, bad decisions can often lead to poverty. Dropping out of school, drug & alcohol abuse, having one or more kids out-of-wedlock, becoming involved with a gang, breaking the law- these are all chosen behaviors.

 

Can someone do everything right and still wind up poor? Unfortunately, yes. I strongly believe that we need a better safety net for those who struggle financially through no fault of their own.

 

[Anne in CA]

The same things that lead to poverty can lead to crime. A lack of vision, a lack of imagination, hopelessness are all things that will keep someone poor, and make crime appealing. I have friends from my rural high school who have worked sixty hours a week for years and stayed poor waiting tables and cleaning houses, and I know people with vision who leveraged waiting tables and cleaning houses into a lucrative future. A person with vision can self educate and move out of a bad situation with a little luck if they are like-able. Your chances of being like-able and having a positive vision for the future go down fast if you were raised by an alcoholic or abuser, or if your whole neighborhood is full of people who lack vision, or if you married someone who wants control more than a real future.

 

My dh's ex wife had five children. Only one belongs to dh. The ex did everything she could to cripple her children so they would always love her best. Only one of those children has a job at this time. Two of her children are covered with horrid home made tattoos and piercings and are so painful to look at they will never have gainful employment. But only one of those young people has turned to crime at this time. The others get by by not wanting much, selling small amounts of pot (I am not counting that as a crime but many people would), begging off elderly relatives. I would never want to live a day in their lives. They all dabble in the occult and their house has a feeling of evil you would have to experience in person to take seriously. Make no mistake that the life they are living is the one the mother designed. She had affluent parents who would have loved to have provided college for her, but she is mentally ill. Borderline personality disorder, probably.

[ElizabethB]

One of my favorite charts: literacy is more highly correlated to earnings than IQ.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/profitable.html

 

Also, Michael Brunner's book "Retarding America: The Imprisonment of Potential" cites research that supports there is causation and not just correlation with juvinile literacy and juvenile crime. It also showed that prison literacy programs that used phonics more than paid for themselves, but were discontinued anyway. I hope to eventually start getting my lessons into prisons, it is hard with our frequent moves. I usually can find inner city youth to work with, though, and hopefully many of them will end up having more positive outcomes than they would have otherwise.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Retarding-America-Imprisonment-Michael-Brunner/dp/0894202928/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405993849&sr=1-1&keywords=Retarding+America

[kiana]

Another way crime leads to poverty that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that convictions for some things can make it extraordinarily difficult to go to college to get a decent job.

 

I have a friend who made some really, really, really dumb decisions at 17-19 and ended up in jail for selling drugs. He has been clean for several years now, but because of this conviction he was not eligible for financial aid from many sources. He was lucky enough to be smart enough to get into a well-private university with a privately funded scholarship, but many who are not so academically able are unable to afford the training programs that could lead to better jobs than minimum wage.

[jewellsmommy]

Poverty leads to a decline in opportunities and options. The lack of opportunities for growth, quality education, leadership, role models, safe exploration of abilities and self in general, etc leads to a likelihood of getting sucked into criminal activity.

 

ETA: Then criminal activity, I think, keeps one in poverty and feeds the cycle. Criminal activity always looks like the easy out. Once someone settles for the idea that there is an easy out they are less inclined to do the hard work that it takes to breaks from the cycle.

[SKL]

I confess to being too thick to answer this question.  I grew up poor but my family and neighbors were not criminals.  There was temptation, but there were also enough reasons to fight the temptation.  Where I did / do see a link is where drugs are involved - and not just for poor people.  Never did understand why some poor people mess with drugs (they are not cheap), but I guess that is where I'm dense.

 

Even if causation can be proven statistically, I do wish people would not write off poor kids in general as spiritually dead, intellectually doomed and not worth the time of day.  Too many cool people started out poor.

[Joanne]

I confess to being too thick to answer this question. I grew up poor but my family and neighbors were not criminals. There was temptation, but there were also enough reasons to fight the temptation. Where I did / do see a link is where drugs are involved - and not just for poor people. Never did understand why some poor people mess with drugs (they are not cheap), but I guess that is where I'm r.

Experimenting with drugs and alcohol is culturally normative in the US. Research shows that more tha. 80 % of teens try drugs and a higher percentage try alcohol by age 25.

 

It is a myth that people "go there" for complicated psychological reasons, trauma, abuseb or poverty. People "go there" because it seems attractive or fun.

 

The problem is that is you put drugs or alcohol into a body predisposed to the disease of addiction, it is likely to respond with a craving for more drugs/alcohol. At that point, it is not a choice.

 

But the first and early interaction are simply because of Western living.

[JumpyTheFrog]

We went to a house church for a while hosted by a sheriff in another, more ruralish county. He said that we wouldn't believe how many of the criminals he dealt with were too poor for their own place and living with their moms. He also said that their hourly rate "earned" through their crimes was low. They would have had much more money working a minimum wage job than stealing or dealing. He thought they were too stupid or ignorant to figure put that they were "working" harder to be criminals for less money than getting a fast food job.

[Joanne]

We went to a house church for a while hosted by a sheriff in another, more ruralish county. He said that we wouldn't believe how many of the criminals he dealt with were too poor for their own place and living with their moms. He also said that their hourly rate "earned" through their crimes was low. They would have had much more money working a minimum wage job than stealing or dealing. He thought they were too stupid or ignorant to figure put that they were "working" harder to be criminals for less money than getting a fast food job.

I work daily with the population being discussed. I don't believe that your Officer's perception is accurate in terms of the challenge being discussed. Addiction might be a match for poverty but addiction is a small recent age of the issue of poverty.

 

And if he used the words stupid and ignorant, I saddened that he represents community helper as.

[Reefgazer]

I don't buy that poverty causes crime; correlation is not causation.  There are a lot of desperately poor people who keep their cr*p together and don't prey on other people or commit crimes because they are poor.  Crimes are a problem of conscience and morality, not money. If you are spending your time doing crime, you probably don't have much energy or time left over to make a very good living. Poverty is an excuse.

[ElizabethB]

James Q Wilson's Crime and Human Nature: The Definitive Study of the Causes of Crime is an interesting book on the subject:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Crime-Human-Nature-Definitive-Causes/dp/0684852667/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1406004767&sr=8-7&keywords=James+q+Wilson

 

There are a lot more questions than answers on this subject, and it is complicated.

 

But, there is a literacy link and that is one that is actually easier to fix than some of the more nebulous causes. Unfortunately, they way reading is taught in schools fails the poor and minorities most, they either do not have the money for tutoring or the generational literacy to tutor on their own.

 

Interestingly, the literacy stats are the same for those on welfare and those in prison: 70% do not read well.

[LucyStoner]

Depends on the type of crime.

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't buy that poverty causes crime; correlation is not causation. There are a lot of desperately poor people who keep their cr*p together and don't prey on other people or commit crimes because they are poor. Crimes are a problem of conscience and morality, not money. If you are spending your time doing crime, you probably don't have much energy or time left over to make a very good living. Poverty is an excuse.

Being poor is absolutely not the same thing as generational poverty. Being poor doesn't automatically mean you will grow up in a rough neighborhood, that your school is like those discussed in "Savage Inequalities," (another excellent book on educational failings of poverty ridden schools) that your speech or skin color or that you don't have the same cultural touchstones as the majority (Freakonomics discusses this, I think? I read another book recently that does too, but the name slips my mind), all of these can and do limit your opportunities.

[SKL]

Being poor is absolutely not the same thing as generational poverty. Being poor doesn't automatically mean you will grow up in a rough neighborhood, that your school is like those discussed in "Savage Inequalities," (another excellent book on educational failings of poverty ridden schools) that your speech or skin color or that you don't have the same cultural touchstones as the majority (Freakonomics discusses this, I think? I read another book recently that does too, but the name slips my mind), all of these can and do limit your opportunities.

 

I thought the question was whether poverty causes crime.  Not whether to racism or poor education or growing up in a rough neighborhood causes poverty.

 

Generational poverty also doesn't automatically mean you will grow up in a rough neighborhood.

 

I think growing up in a neighborhood where boys are shot/knifed and girls are raped at an alarming rate probably impacts crime.  Even if you wouldn't naturally tend toward violence, you might feel you have to take the offensive to avoid being a victim.  But there are many poor children who are not brought up in such environments.

 

The following is a general comment, not a response to MM.  Poverty does seem to exacerbate the fallout of crimes and other poor decisions.  If you're poor and get arrested, you may not be able to bail yourself out in order to keep your job, for example, let alone pay a good lawyer to work out a plea bargain or whatever.  Then again, IQ / executive function / mental illness plays into that as well.  Public defenders often marvel at how dumb many of their clients are, how awful their decision process is.  Yes, literacy is big, but one wonders how much of the literacy problem goes back to just not having much intelligence or self-control in the first place.  That isn't caused by poverty (absent extreme malnutrition), but it can certainly cause a person to be poor.

[Carrie12345]

I believe poverty *contributes to crime.  There is no question that I would steal bread for my children if I ever felt it was my only option. 

 

"Food" and "only option" may be interpreted differently by different people.

 

There are plenty of criminals of wealth who are willing to go to great lengths to protect their "food" when their "options" are threatened.

[Trish]

So maybe the greatest nation on earth is one wealthy enough not to have much poverty?

 

Maybe Kuwait or Monaco or something?

[Joanne]

The attraction for teens seems to be cheap pleasure combined with lots of idle time.

It isnt just Western living. Teens from nonWestern countries that are strict on drug use go party in other countries where no jail terms are involved and their money is welcome.

I can't speak to other countries on this issue, but I do know a bit about cultures within this one.

 

I agree with "cheap pleasure" and that fits with our current knowledge of brain development.

 

Unfortunately, the same brain that "pushes" them to go there is the same brain MORE vulnerable to the rapid progression of the disease of addiction. If a predisposed adult begins using drugs and alcohol, the rate of the disease progression takes 8 to 10 years. In a predisposed teen, 3 to 5.

[Joanne]

One more thing, I absolutely observe a correlation between crime and literacy/ level of education. My population is self select in substance abuse already.

 

Although, now that I think about it, level of formal education is more strongly correlated in my group; most clients, including drop outs, have been literate.

[regentrude]

Since somebody up thread mentioned delayed gratification:

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21606896-impatient-children-are-more-likely-become-lawbreakers-time-and-punishment

 

 

[SadieMarie]

After watching coverage of the many Wall Street shenanigans that have occurred just over the past decade, I would say that a better question might be "does poverty lead to prison?"

[goldberry]

After watching coverage of the many Wall Street shenanigans that have occurred just over the past decade, I would say that a better question might be "does poverty lead to prison?"

 

That's the truth!  Part of why I think that companies don't deserve the rights of people until they start being held accountable like people.  People that steal and fraud millions of dollars go to prison.  That whole Wall Street mess, what, ONE guy went to prison?  Really?

 

Sorry..OT...continue on!

[shinyhappypeople]

Some random thoughts, in no particular order:

 

*  I don't think poverty causes criminal behavior, usually.  How many criminals are in jail because of crimes of necessity? I don't buy the idea that the jails are bursting at the seams with modern-day Jean Valjeans.  

 

* I think crime causes poverty in the sense that it destroys neighborhoods, drives out legitimate business, infects schools, and limits opportunities for residents - especially children.  Imagine the difference growing up attending a nice suburban school versus an inner-city school.

 

* Something I want to learn more about: the school to prison pipeline.  I admit ignorance about that subject.  I need more information.  But, it raises some compelling questions that are interesting to think about.

 

I have more to ramble about, but it will have to wait.  Thank you for this fantastic discussion :)

[SKL]

Another question that will never be answered: why do people choose criminals as leaders?  Leaders who at best ignore poverty, at worst profit off of its increase?  At all levels of society.  ??

[Joanne]

In all seriousness in 13 years on message boards I have seen this discussion play out hundreds of times and never does anyone want to read anything- only to spout their opinions (which are often based on their aversion to a cousin/ aunt/ brother.)

 

Addiction is as common in the higher echelons of society as in the lower. The price paid by upper class addicts sure is different though.

 

There are some really great articles out there about poverty, homelessness. There are a ton of resources to learn about hunger among US families including kids in suburbia. I wish people would talk less about that jerk in the grocery with food stamps and coke and cheetos and a rotisserie chicken instead of beans and rice and read a little more.

Yes. I would "enjoy" an informed discussion of the topic - not one based on assumptions, myths, and stereotypes emerging from selective bias.

 

I agree about addiction: I have clients on both ends of that continuum. The life challenges for the lower socioeconomic clients are different than the mid to higher socioeconomic clients. The disease, however, is the same.

[Tanaqui]

Poverty leads to crimes of poverty... which tend to be punished more harshly than crimes of affluence. For that matter, even those crimes which have nothing to do with income (spousal abuse, drug use, drunk driving) tend to be punished less harshly if the perpetrator is wealthy. It's disgusting, really.

 

[Joanne]

If you are interested in the prison connection, google for profit prison, prison lobby, drugs, and mandatory sentencing, and also google about black and hispanic boys in schools (suspension/expulsion) and prisons.

 

Of course after reading up you will want to soak your head in a giant bucket and never come up for air.

I respect your hate for anecdotal support, but hear me out. :)

 

I have observed, over and over again, a difference in how whites are treated for the SAME crimes vs. any person of color. Same charge, same amount (if drugs), same details. The persons (usually men) of color are treated with more physical aggression by enforcement personnel, more verbal aggression, and the court system gives them more stipulations and in general harsher sentences.

 

I have seen it since I was a student therapist - so about 4 years now.

[Joanne]

Poverty leads to crimes of poverty... which tend to be punished more harshly than crimes of affluence. For that matter, even those crimes which have nothing to do with income (spousal abuse, drug use, drunk driving) tend to be punished more harshly if the perpetrator is wealthy. It's disgusting, really.

Actually, the end of your post is categorically untrue at least in Texas.

[SKL]

I still do not understand the federal govt summer feeding pgm...the kids have to get to school to get their bkfst and lunch but there is no bussing...that costs the family more in gas than the meals would cost. Couldnt the feds just use a food truck and go to the neighborhoods? And maybe have a library truck too?

 

In my state the free meals are not provided only at schools.

 

Just curious, why is walking not feasible for urban kids in summer?

[Tanaqui]

Actually, the end of your post is categorically untrue at least in Texas.

 

That's because I made a typo. Fixing it!

 

[SKL]

I have observed, over and over again, a difference in how whites are treated for the SAME crimes vs. any person of color. Same charge, same amount (if drugs), same details. The persons (usually men) of color are treated with more physical aggression by enforcement personnel, more verbal aggression, and the court system gives them more stipulations and in general harsher sentences.

 

And why do you think this is?  I know the knee-jerk reaction is plain and simple white-on-black racism, but is there not also a difference (on average) in how people of different demographic groups respond when they come into close proximity with a police officer?  If you were a police officer, would you be able to prevent that from affecting how you deal with a perp?

 

I think it sucks, but it isn't as simple as "whites like to hurt blacks."

[SKL]

I would imagine there are territorial disputes.

 

I am rural though, so walking and biking are not safe as it is on the side of a two lane road with no shoulder and lots of traffic for 2 to ten miles. Maybe the post office could just deliver bag lunches. Or the ingredients.

 

Maybe in this case it would be more efficient to provide rural families with a bunch of food once every week or two, rather than deliver individual meals every day.  Or just up the food stamps in the summer time?  Or do they already do that?

[SKL]

So speaking of the elephant in the room - why is housing so darn expensive in low-income areas?  It would be easier to pay a living wage if the living wage didn't have to cover the equivalent of a mansion in my neighborhood.

[Caroline]

And why do you think this is? I know the knee-jerk reaction is plain and simple white-on-black racism, but is there not also a difference (on average) in how people of different demographic groups respond when they come into close proximity with a police officer? If you were a police officer, would you be able to prevent that from affecting how you deal with a perp?

 

I think it sucks, but it isn't as simple as "whites like to hurt blacks."

Is that because historically minorities have been treated poorly by the police?

[Harriet Vane]

And why do you think this is?  I know the knee-jerk reaction is plain and simple white-on-black racism, but is there not also a difference (on average) in how people of different demographic groups respond when they come into close proximity with a police officer?  If you were a police officer, would you be able to prevent that from affecting how you deal with a perp?

 

I think it sucks, but it isn't as simple as "whites like to hurt blacks."

 

This sounds a lot like blame-the-victim. It sounds like you are saying that a victim's demeanor has caused the police to react a certain way.

 

My purely anecdotal (but extensive) experience living in an African-American neighborhood in Chicago is that people of color are afraid of the police, and they have good reason to be afraid.

 

Please understand, also, that I am not anti-police. I have a dear friend from college who is everything you would want a police officer to be. Also a former writing student of mine is on track to be a police officer, and I believe he will make a fine one. Good cops are a Godsend; bad cops are a living hell for those under their power.